Apparently, Meteor Cancel WASN'T removed

[Empy]

This could mean it would be better to turn the tap jump back on, which I find annoying. I was pretty much bashing the up button for utilts already, cause I do my utilts on a smash-c-stick layout now.

 

[alejandroidex]

there is Meteor Cancel.. i do it every time with ROB, FALCON and MARTH.. like panda say: "It was established since day 1 that there are no spikes and only meteors..." maybe you haven't practice the timing for each of your characters.

is just like the normal meteor cancel.. jump if you still have it. or Up-B.

|Sorry for my English|

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It's certainly in, as I've done it with G&W numerous times, and it seems like a lot of people arent surprised by this too much, either.

And it is still good that you brought this to everyone's attention. Good job with it :D

 

[Sonic the EdgEhog]

Yeah I'm a Sonic main and I can survive a D-air from DK at like 90 percent off the stage if I meteor cancel correctly.

 

[Cervial]

This was actually questioned...? I'm a scrub and I knew it was in.... >_____>

Nice job confirming it for those foolish enough not to try it,, though. ^_X

 

[Shiri]

People have been saying Meteor Canceling was out?

LOL, I need to come into the Brawl rooms more.

 

[FunkMaster]

well, out of the matches i've played i have not seen anyone ever meteor cancel anything. i live in alaska, so who would know?

the alaskan metagame is a different thing from the rest of the world and revolves around one person really. if there wasn't smashboards to look up new discoveries and stuff in brawl i don't know what alaska would do.

 

[Doval]

Ah, here we go. The claim that there's no Meteor Cancel in Brawl was made in both the List of Spikes in Brawl and The Physics of Attacks (DI included) guides. Considering that, it's no wonder so many people were under the impression that Meteor Canceling was gone. It's pretty funny that so many people knew otherwise, yet no one corrected the guides.

 

[Pseudoshot]

Ah yes, I knew this was possible. Because my friend canceled my marth Dair @ 30-40% ish and i was like wdf.
I just don't have brawl and can't look into it. Friend doesn't care, just plays casual lol.

 

[kamekasu]

Ah, here we go. The claim that there's no Meteor Cancel in Brawl was made in both the List of Spikes in Brawl and The Physics of Attacks (DI included) guides. Considering that, it's no wonder so many people were under the impression that Meteor Canceling was gone. It's pretty funny that so many people knew otherwise, yet no one corrected the guides.

Maybe they're just claiming to have known otherwise...
It didn't work the first few times I tried Meteor Canceling, so I just gave up. Besides, if it works differently, don't you think all these people who 'knew' would have pointed that out by now?

 

[ph00tbag]

This isn't meteor canceling. They just made spikes less broken.

 

[salaboB]

Maybe they're just claiming to have known otherwise...
It didn't work the first few times I tried Meteor Canceling, so I just gave up. Besides, if it works differently, don't you think all these people who 'knew' would have pointed that out by now?

They probably read about it being gone, filed that away, then saw it -- and thought "Oh, a meteor cancel. I know about those from Melee." and then didn't even think about that when asked about them in Brawl they'd say they were impossible.

Then this topic shows up, and they remember seeing it and think they've always known that.

 

[Mazaloth]

What the hell.
I never heard the meteor canceling was taken out in the first place.

Who ever said that it was is an idiot. I meteor cancel from Marios Fair everytime.

I can also recover from wolf's Side special anywhere below 100%.

 

[Doval]

It didn't work the first few times I tried Meteor Canceling, so I just gave up.

That's the same thing that happened to me too. Of course, I had mashed the jump button, which explains why it didn't work for me back then.

Besides, if it works differently, don't you think all these people who 'knew' would have pointed that out by now?

Hehe, yeah, I was being sarcastic with that last sentence.

This isn't meteor canceling. They just made spikes less broken.

Except, it is Meteor Canceling. Re-read the OP again more carefully, I even posted a way to test it yourself. You can't tell me it's normal for the game to let you Jump or Up B much, much sooner than it lets you do Neutral B, Side B, or Down B.

 

[Corigames]

How do you know this is a meteor cancel? to me, it sounds like certain moves will just break you out of hitstun faster than others or increase your vertical velocity enough to negate the downward motion. Try doing this, set Lucario up with some damage and send him upward. Have the person playing Lucario do his D-air repeatedly. The second he has the chance, he will stop all upward speed. I think that's all that is happening here, but in the opposite direction.

 

[Doval]

How do you know this is a meteor cancel? to me, it sounds like certain moves will just break you out of hitstun faster than others or increase your vertical velocity enough to negate the downward motion. Try doing this, set Lucario up with some damage and send him upward. Have the person playing Lucario do his D-air repeatedly. The second he has the chance, he will stop all upward speed. I think that's all that is happening here, but in the opposite direction.

That's a keen observation, but it's not what's going on. What you describe is a separate game mechanic, which allows you to perform an air dodge or any aerial (including z-button tethers) shortly after you get hit. For ease of discussion, let's call this particular game mechanic "Stun Canceling" for now. You can't Stun Cancel with a jump or B move; you have to wait until the attack's stun wears off (although at high %'s, air dodging will allow you to jump sooner than usual because the air dodge ends before the attack's stun was supposed to.) By the way, Lucario's d-air will not stop his air movement at higher speeds, or he would become unkillable until Sudden Death %'s.

Another noteworthy fact is that the window of opportunity for Stun Canceling starts much sooner than the window of opportunity for Meteor Canceling, since you need to fall roughly half the distance you'd have fallen while stunned, before the game will let you Meteor Cancel. Finally, there's one other tell-tale sign - when you Meteor Cancel, your downwards momentum is stopped completely. For example, Zero Suit Samus's Up-B (Plasma Wire), when used as an attack (i.e. there are no edges to tether) won't slow down your fall speed. However, used as a Meteor Cancel, it does bring Samus to a complete stop momentarily.

 

[Corigames]

Then, to simplify this I'll use "Stun Cancel" too, do certain moves have a variance of time before Stun Canceling and amount of momentum canceled? If so, you may categorize the so-called meteor cancel a character-wide consistent "Stun Cancel." While everyone may have different moves like Robs Bair, Jiggly's Forward B, etc. that does a certain amount of stun canceling at certain time, everyone has the same stun cancel for their mid-air jump, Up B, and dodge.

Plausible?

 

[Doval]

Then, to simplify this I'll use "Stun Cancel" too, do certain moves have a variance of time before Stun Canceling and amount of momentum canceled? If so, you may categorize the so-called meteor cancel a character-wide consistent "Stun Cancel."

Nope. First of all, the timing for Stun Canceling is the same for all aerials and air dodging. Second of all, you just can't Stun Cancel a jump or any Special Move at all, you have to wait for the attack's stun to wear off. And like I said, the timing for Stun Canceling differs from the timing for Meteor Canceling. Also, Stun Canceled moves won't change your momentum, while Meteor Canceled moves bring you a complete halt no matter how hard you were hit. They're clearly two separate game mechanics.

 

[Corigames]

I just find it very weird that if they left the mechanic in, they wouldn't give some indication. There is a little photoshop on everything you do in this game from Tripping, to picking up items, to even footstool jumping, but meteor canceling has nothing? I think that, if anything, it is not an intentional mechanic.

One more question, may I? In melee, as you were going off the side, you could use your mid air jump to almost completely reverse the direction you were going to keep from flying off. In some situations, if you tried to use something like a Forward B, Down B, or A move, you would die when, in the same situation, jumping would have saved you. Do you think this mechanic is related to this? Jumping or using your Recovery Attack (Up B) as a "special" cancel that really isn't a meteor cancel, in the definition of the traditional fashion, or stun cancel.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

What the hell.
I never heard the meteor canceling was taken out in the first place.

Who ever said that it was is an idiot. I meteor cancel from Marios Fair everytime.

I can also recover from wolf's Side special anywhere below 100%.

What is up with people calling Scotu an idiot? He probably based his assumption off the fact that you can't cancel meteors right away, but can still jump as soon as hitstun wears off. If Meteor Canceling is indeed in, then this would be one of the rare cases in which he's been wrong, and then only slightly.

 

[Doval]

I just find it very weird that if they left the mechanic in, they wouldn't give some indication. There is a little photoshop on everything you do in this game from Tripping, to picking up items, to even footstool jumping, but meteor canceling has nothing? I think that, if anything, it is not an intentional mechanic.

Well hey, Stun Canceled moves don't have any special animation either, nor does the game give any indication for DI. DI isn't even referenced in the Smash Dojo! In addition to that, Melee most certainly had Meteor Canceling, and it didn't have a special animation there either

One more question, may I? In melee, as you were going off the side, you could use your mid air jump to almost completely reverse the direction you were going to keep from flying off. In some situations, if you tried to use something like a Forward B, Down B, or A move, you would die when, in the same situation, jumping would have saved you. Do you think this mechanic is related to this?

This situation still holds true in Brawl. However, it's not accurate to say that forward jumping reverses your momentum. Even in Melee, if you got knocked out hard enough, it was possible to see your character mid-air jump from the magnifying glass, yet die off the side anyways (i.e. you jumped, but your character continued to travel backwards and died.) More importantly, though, in those instances you were forced to wait until your character became unstunned, whereas in a Meteor Cancel you Jump or Up B much sooner than you're supposed to be allowed to.

 

[Yuna]

Ah, here we go. The claim that there's no Meteor Cancel in Brawl was made in both the List of Spikes in Brawl and The Physics of Attacks (DI included) guides. Considering that, it's no wonder so many people were under the impression that Meteor Canceling was gone. It's pretty funny that so many people knew otherwise, yet no one corrected the guides.

I did.

People said "You're wrong! You saw it wrong! That wasn't a meteor cancel! You remember wrong!", etc.

 

[Doval]

Ah, well, ****. (As you can tell, I didn't bother reading through the whole thread >_>)

 

[LegendofLink]

Melee most certainly had Meteor Canceling, and it didn't have a special animation there either.

Meteor Canceling in Melee had a special animation, the character would sparkle for a moment when you jumped or used your up-b after being meteor smashed.

Nice find with the Meteor Canceling in Brawl though.

 

[Yuna]

Meteor Canceling in Melee had a special animation, the character would sparkle for a moment when you jumped or used your up-b after being meteor smashed.

Actually, they just "sparkled". The animation was still the exact same.

 

[Oracle]

Meteor canceling has been taken out. It used to be that if a move was labeled as a meteor smash, then immediately after getting hit by that, the character could jump, essentially taking away hitstun for the jump button. To see what I mean, try to spike a kirby or jigglypuff in melee. You can jump immediately, and the ai will do so at mid percentages.

 

[Yuna]

Meteor canceling has been taken out. It used to be that if a move was labeled as a meteor smash, then immediately after getting hit by that, the character could jump, essentially taking away hitstun for the jump button. To see what I mean, try to spike a kirby or jigglypuff in melee. You can jump immediately, and the ai will do so at mid percentages.

1) Read what's been posted in the thread before responding.
2) Meteor Canceling has changed. It's still in, however. It's kinda like how Z(L)-canceling changed into L-canceling.
3) What does Kirby and Jiggz Dairing in Melee you have to do with Meteor Canceling in Brawl?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Learn to read noob.

 

[salaboB]

Try doing this, set Lucario up with some damage and send him upward. Have the person playing Lucario do his D-air repeatedly. The second he has the chance, he will stop all upward speed. I think that's all that is happening here, but in the opposite direction.

I've tested this, it's a bit of bad information floating around -- Lucario's dair will not save him from a star KO, the momentum shift doesn't happen if he's got momentum from a hit.

 

[AlAxe]

I actually noticed this with ROB a couple days ago. I was able to survive spikes from Falco and Marth using my up b before I truly recovered.

 

[Vro]

Doval, you never cease to impress me.

 

[Corigames]

I don't think it is really a Meteor Cancel after everything is done. A meteor cancel occurred when you broke out of the hitstun and were able to recover better due to it. This still relies on you reaching, somewhat, near the end of the hitstun before escaping. Since there is no clear "Metoer Smash" in this game, since all of them use the same mechanic, there isn't really a "meteor cancel." If anything, it should be a "Spike Cancel."

Not to say it needs to be re-named, like every time someone chains two moves together and tries to put their name on it, but it should be clear that this is not a meteor cancel in the essence of the definition.

 

[Doval]

Have you tried it yourself? It's pretty hard to see how it could be anything other than a Meteor Cancel. The window of opportunity doesn't open anywhere near the end of the hit stun - you can cancel halfway into the meteor, and that makes a VERY big difference in terms of a Meteor's killing power. Plus, there's no other way to explain the fact that it brings you a complete stop, or that it can only be done with a jump or Up-B.

 

[Aeyr]

Whats the success rate of canceling a spike from either Ganon or Zelda then? o.o

 

[kamekasu]

I did.

People said "You're wrong! You saw it wrong! That wasn't a meteor cancel! You remember wrong!", etc.

Nobody ever said that... I presented legitimate alternate causalities to your scenarios. You even agreed with some of the things I said. If you had actually tried it, you would have noticed this difference in meteor-canceling and posted it a week ago.

 

[Yuna]

I don't think it is really a Meteor Cancel after everything is done. A meteor cancel occurred when you broke out of the hitstun and were able to recover better due to it. This still relies on you reaching, somewhat, near the end of the hitstun before escaping. Since there is no clear "Metoer Smash" in this game, since all of them use the same mechanic, there isn't really a "meteor cancel." If anything, it should be a "Spike Cancel."

Spike a term made up by the community to differentiate between Meteor Smashes (cancelable) and Spikes (not cancelable).

Since they're all now cancelable, the term "Spike" has become obselete.

Nobody ever said that... I presented legitimate alternate causalities to your scenarios. You even agreed with some of the things I said. If you had actually tried it, you would have noticed this difference in meteor-canceling and posted it a week ago.

You presented a "That wasn't a meteor cancel"-scenario.

 

[kamekasu]

Spike a term made up by the community to differentiate between Meteor Smashes (cancelable) and Spikes (not cancelable).

Since they're all now cancelable, the term "Spike" has become obselete.


You presented a "That wasn't a meteor cancel"-scenario.

I called them all spikes because I assumed meteor canceling is out. I am aware of the difference between the two.

Don't oversimplify the argument:

Footstool Jumps are just such weak spikes, and have such little hitlag, that it may have seemed like you Meteor Canceled it.

Another possible explanation is that you hit them while they had SA frames. I know I've sweetspotted Falco's Dair on Dedede just as he used Up-B and it looked just like he Meteor Canceled it.

To which you said:

You could be right on the Footstool issue, though. So bottom line is, Brawl has no Meteor Smashes, only spikes? Smart, Sakurai. Real smart.

If you had any amount of doubt that meteor canceling still existed, you would have verified it then, rather than making childish "I told you so!" claims now.

 

[Yuna]

I called them all spikes because I assumed meteor canceling is out. I am aware of the difference between the two.

I'm sorry, the portion of the post you quoted and replied to concerning the differences between Spikes and Meteors Smashes in Melee was connected to you how? How is it even relevant what you did? I was quoting coreygames and correcting him on his assertion that we should call them all Spikes now instead of Meteor Smashes (because that's what the games themselves call them... Melee just didn't have differentiating terms for what's cancelable and what's not, so we made up the term "Spike").

This portion of the post was in no way addressed to you.

If you had any amount of doubt that meteor canceling still existed, you would have verified it then, rather than making childish "I told you so!" claims now.

Let's see... 3+ people told me I was wrong. Who was I to question what had apparently been established? I didn't feel a need to look into the matter further. I made a mistake, yes.

But you made a similar mistake by assuming it was out because you had yet to be able to meteor cancel. Even though I was probably not the only one to have reported meteor canceling. I've canceled several Footstools almost immediately (as in, before you should be able to).

I made the mistake of taking someone's word for it. You made the mistake of not taking other people's word for it.

 

[l3rian]

i was playing with toon link today against a samus and when she spiked my i was like @$%# but then i used up b after like a half second and recovered. i was like WTF hahahaha. and that caused me to come check this thread. i really thought mateor cancelling was out. i hope many people dont find out

 

[Jimtopia]

Awesome, I suppose I haven't noticed, I'll have to give it a try later.