Are IC Chain Grabs Dead?

[Dan_X]

I was watching the following Nintendo Treehouse video and at 15:50 the Nintendo employee said that only Popo can grab now. Such a bummer, the chain grabs were so fun. I can see trying to make sure stuff like wobbling doesn't exist, but the chain grabs were a core part of their gameplay.

https://youtu.be/nIZb2C6EMBA

It looks like it should be easy enough to desynch them (I'm hoping to God it still is truly possible) so maybe some chain grabs exist by way of some desynch where Nana hits them and Popo regrabs?

Also, I wonder if SoPo still has his down throw chain grab.

Did any of the pro players get to try out the ICs in any depth?

 

[ottobot]

Given that chain grabs were completely removed in smash 4, im going to guess that they went super out of their way to make sure icies don't have them either. The removal of nana's grab is pretty clearly an intentional precaution against chain grabs.

 

[Smasher89]

Grab teching is aparently a thing, so even if there would be setups, the damage output would be nowere close to what it has been. I'm afraid this also gets rid of the cool guessing game when grabbing to get early kills by hitting the opponents in tricky ways. So evein if hobbling would be practical (backthrow footstool iceblock reset) grab teching escapes that, and since Nana cant grab, that prob would be to slow.

 

[l!nk_aut]

I watched the Video where Nakat played Ice Climbers and both times when he backthrowed, Nana did not make the taunt-animation, maybe that could be a setup for at least a follow-up? But yeah, I suppose cgs are most likely gone for good.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Came back from playing Smash ultimate all week. I can confirm their grab game from before is now dead. Unless something happens in the final build, cgs are indeed gone for good. Not all hope is lost on their grab game since Popo can follow up from DThrow to UAir.

I watched the Video where Nakat played Ice Climbers and both times when he backthrowed, Nana did not make the taunt-animation, maybe that could be a setup for at least a follow-up? But yeah, I suppose cgs are most likely gone for good.

Nana cannot be controlled at all when you grabbed someone or when you throw them. This happened with backthrow as well when I tried it a couple times. At this time, it is not possible for Nana to follow up with anything from a grab.

 

[l!nk_aut]

Came back from playing Smash ultimate all week. I can confirm their grab game from before is now dead. Unless something happens in the final build, cgs are indeed gone for good. Not all hope is lost on their grab game since Popo can follow up from DThrow to UAir.


Nana cannot be controlled at all when you grabbed someone or when you throw them. This happened with backthrow as well when I tried it a couple times. At this time, it is not possible for Nana to follow up with anything from a grab.

Thank you for the clarification on that one! So I guess we have to come up with other tech, interesting!
I'm sure with time someone will come up with something, after all it's ICs ^^

Btw do you know if Nana can still get Popo out of a grab if he gets grabbed? Is she controllable in that situation?

 

[Smasher89]

Ok, new sources claim "grab teching" is not a thing, so there is actually some hope.

 

[ClimbersOfIce]

I wish sakurai wasn't so draconian with the icies nerfs.. it's not necessary to make Nana uncontrollable while popo grabs and throws, that is taking it too far imo. Just make it so that Nana can't regrab(which the game doesn't allow anyway) , and no wobbling. But by making Nana unable to move while popo grabs eliminates their cooperative follow-ups which has always been a huge part of their game.
And nana not being able to grab at all is even stupider still.. Nana panicking while popo is being grabbed sucks but it's a tolerable change.. the rest though.. idk. I don't like how it's looking for the icies. Not having reliable desync techniques also sucks. It seems like sakurai doesn't even acknowledge the importance of their desyncs. He probably didn't intend for them to be played desynced, though I wish he did. There is nothing more satisfying then overwhelming your opponent with powerful desync techniques.

 

[Bolshoi]

Man, I loved the grab followups in Brawl. I was never very good with ICs, but I could pull of a UThrow, DAir, FSmash in training, and it felt so cool. Sucks that they're gone now.

 

[EverAlert]

Since you can tech footstools now and there's a grab limit, it's probably enough to just remove Nana's ability to grab if you just want to remove infinites and repetitive combos. Definitely feel the changes are overall too far, but I don't think removing her grab is a bad idea.

Unable to control her when Popo is grabbed is pretty nonsense though, since it's sort of irrelevant to the problem and a huge nerf.

Hopefully the idea is to rebuild them from a low baseline, gonna be an interesting 6 months.

 

[ClimbersOfIce]

Since you can tech footstools now and there's a grab limit, it's probably enough to just remove Nana's ability to grab if you just want to remove infinites and repetitive combos. Definitely feel the changes are overall too far, but I don't think removing her grab is a bad idea.

Unable to control her when Popo is grabbed is pretty nonsense though, since it's sort of irrelevant to the problem and a huge nerf.

Hopefully the idea is to rebuild them from a low baseline, gonna be an interesting 6 months.

What do you mean low baseline? And yeah, sakurai needs to make Nana fully controllable during grab. Allowing Nana to grab herself doesn't really bring any serious consequences either as long as handoffs aren't possible, so that should be put back in the game. And yeah Nana panicking makes it even easier to separate the two which makes them even weaker. The only things that should be removed are wobbling and chain grabs, that's it. They took it too far imo..

 

[AMcsx2]

- no chaingrabs cause the opponent can't be grabbed more than once for a few seconds
- no wobbling cause of the hitstun mechanics
- no hobbling cause the opponent can tech footstools

The fact that Nana can't act during a grab is completely unnecessary and I really hope it is changed in the final build. Being able to pull off neat combos and kill confirms from a grab by utilizing both of them was one of the best parts about them in any smash game.

 

[ClimbersOfIce]

- no chaingrabs cause the opponent can't be grabbed more than once for a few seconds
- no wobbling cause of the hitstun mechanics
- no hobbling cause the opponent can tech footstools

The fact that Nana can't act during a grab is completely unnecessary and I really hope it is changed in the final build. Being able to pull off neat combos and kill confirms from a grab by utilizing both of them was one of the best parts about them in any smash game.

- no chaingrabs cause the opponent can't be grabbed more than once for a few seconds
- no wobbling cause of the hitstun mechanics
- no hobbling cause the opponent can tech footstools

The fact that Nana can't act during a grab is completely unnecessary and I really hope it is changed in the final build. Being able to pull off neat combos and kill confirms from a grab by utilizing both of them was one of the best parts about them in any smash game.

Yes my point exactly. Not allowing Nana to act just makes me kind of angry tbh. And her panicking while popo is being grabbed is also an annoying nerf that is kind of questionable. The way they're dealing with them is a little too harsh, they really don't need that many nerfs. Sakurai must be really afraid of them being broken again.. but geez man, he took away most of what made the character(s).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Unable to control her when Popo is grabbed is pretty nonsense though, since it's sort of irrelevant to the problem and a huge nerf.

It's kind of like how the Luma can't do anything if Rosalina gets grabbed; a balancing measure. In a way, it seems that the developers don't want you to take the easy way out if someone manages to grab you.

 

[ClimbersOfIce]

It's kind of like how the Luma can't do anything if Rosalina gets grabbed; a balancing measure. In a way, it seems that the developers don't want you to take the easy way out if someone manages to grab you.

Fair enough, but I don't think that's the worst nerf. The worst nerf is Nana not being able to act while popo grabs, that is taking away a huge chunk of the essence of the ice climbers. Sure, luma can't do anything while Rosalina grabs, but Rosa respawns luma after a certain period of time. Popo is stuck alone until he "dies" again, so why not compensate by allowing Nana to act while popo grabs and throws? PM ice climbers were executed right (competitively). The PM team retained what made the icies special, while also eliminating unhealthy tactics(wobbling, infinite chain grabs). Perhaps I'm missing something but as it stands, I think it is not rocket science. They need to fix this.. it's too bad sakurai didn't seem to design the icies with Desyncs in mind. Iff he did, we'd have easier ways of desyncing which would make all the nerfs more tolerable. But apparently desyncing is not as straightforward as before.

 

[EverAlert]

Preventing Nana from being actionable when Popo is grabbed is way worse for ICs than when Popo is grabbing lol. She should be able to act in both cases though.

What do you mean low baseline?

Well my hope is that they're going over the top nerfing Nana on purpose, with the intent of only buffing from here on out (but in the right ways). Could be a deliberate approach to avoid nerfing them in the wrong ways down the track. Then again they could just have gone overboard without much thought lol.

It's kind of like how the Luma can't do anything if Rosalina gets grabbed; a balancing measure. In a way, it seems that the developers don't want you to take the easy way out if someone manages to grab you.

So there are two key differences between Nana and Luma I'd like to highlight.

1. Luma can be controlled remotely and called back at any time from any position (with armor, I believe). Nana can only be controlled up close.
2. If Luma is KOd, it comes back. Nana does not.

They are both puppet characters so they do share similarities, but they differ in how they support the master and how fragile they are. Importantly, Nana is only useful when nearby Popo; the point of Nana is to help Popo up close. Luma however is quite comfortable when separated in this situation and the cost of it being intercepted here is not that great in any case. Preventing Luma from breaking grabs (which it can when desynced anyway) is consistent with its design. For ICs, this change defeats the purpose of their mechanic, and has nothing at all to do with their balance issues to begin with.

 

[l!nk_aut]

Preventing Nana from being actionable when Popo is grabbed is way worse for ICs than when Popo is grabbing lol. She should be able to act in both cases though.

exactly! it's way worse. it really hurts them quite a bit

Well my hope is that they're going over the top nerfing Nana on purpose, with the intent of only buffing from here on out (but in the right ways). Could be a deliberate approach to avoid nerfing them in the wrong ways down the track. Then again they could just have gone overboard without much thought lol.

lets hope so :/

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

The combo potential that came with Nana's freedom of control was so unique and still required some coordination and timing that made the characters tricky to master. I loved being able to set up aerial and spike follow-ups with Nana when the opponent was at just the right percentages. The delay between two grabs is more than enough to remove hand-offs and chain grabs that are unavoidable. Why also take away Nana combos that are nowhere close to being unfair? Without control of her, their grab game will be near worthless at worst and overly basic at best. Just give them knockback angles that are easier to DI in most percent+rage windows or increase lag on their grab animation. Don't remove a huge part of what makes their duo mechanic stand out.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Thank you for the clarification on that one! So I guess we have to come up with other tech, interesting!
I'm sure with time someone will come up with something, after all it's ICs ^^

Btw do you know if Nana can still get Popo out of a grab if he gets grabbed? Is she controllable in that situation?

Sorry for the late reply. Was sick for a day or so.

No, Nana is unable to get Popo out of grabs now. When Popo is grabbed she starts to freak out (Think Luma when Rosa is grabbed).

 

[NashRiskin]

Thank you for the clarification on that one! So I guess we have to come up with other tech, interesting!
I'm sure with time someone will come up with something, after all it's ICs ^^

Btw do you know if Nana can still get Popo out of a grab if he gets grabbed? Is she controllable in that situation?

Nana goes into a panic animation when Popo is grabbed, its cute but not very helpful, (I also played as the Nana controlled Climber and its even better when Popo panics)

 

[lordvaati]

So Nana is to Popo what Servbot was to Tron Bonne now. Yeesh.

 

[link2702]

As much as I despised the ic in brawl and Melee, i do feel these nerfs are too much.

I was actually hoping cgs would return just....balanced. Somehow. I personally think every fighter needs a grappler, and for smash that was the ice climbers, surely sakurai could have found some way to make cgs for the ics return without making the mechanics op’d ?

 

[meleebrawler]

As much as I despised the ic in brawl and Melee, i do feel these nerfs are too much.

I was actually hoping cgs would return just....balanced. Somehow. I personally think every fighter needs a grappler, and for smash that was the ice climbers, surely sakurai could have found some way to make cgs for the ics return without making the mechanics op’d ?

I think they wanted DK to be the grappler, his All-Star Melee trophy makes a point of mentioning his grab game and so far seems to be the only heavy
to mostly retain his throw combos from 4.

 

[lordvaati]

Yeah Bowser and DK seem to be the grapplers now, with ICs being turned into a puppet Master type just like Rosa & Luma.

 

[NashRiskin]

Yeah Bowser and DK seem to be the grapplers now, with ICs being turned into a puppet Master type just like Rosa & Luma.

If they become a "puppet master" I'll be curious if there are more active ways to manipulate the second climber (C2). From my play it didn't seem like the C2 was so much a "puppet" as a shadow/enhancer. Def needs more testing but I wonder if you can control the C2 from distance, it didn't feel like you could but who knows...

 

[link2702]

I think they wanted DK to be the grappler, his All-Star Melee trophy makes a point of mentioning his grab game and so far seems to be the only heavy
to mostly retain his throw combos from 4.

That may be, but at this point, ic were essentially known throughout the community for their insane grab game. To lose it entirely after being absent one game seems a bit harsh.

At the end of the day it is what it is, I just feel they could have, and should have, found a way to make a strong grab game part of their character again.

 

[meleebrawler]

That may be, but at this point, ic were essentially known throughout the community for their insane grab game. To lose it entirely after being absent one game seems a bit harsh.

At the end of the day it is what it is, I just feel they could of, and should have, found a way to make a strong grab game part of their character again.

Also at the end of the day, a dev's vision takes precedence over fan perception.

On another note, has anyone noticed the insane spiking angle on the CPU climber's fair? It's like an inverted Sakurai angle.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't think the Ice Climbers were meant to be chain grabbers to begin with, considering how limited their grab range is. The developers may have found a way to counter the unintentional grab game issue by giving fighters a grab immunity period upon being thrown. But Nana not being able to save Popo from being grabbed is too heavy of a nerf, as that practically destroys the purpose of trying to stay together. AND the opposing fighter can potentially take advantage of Nana's helpless condition along the way, especially if the throw has collateral damage properties.

 

[l!nk_aut]

I don't think the Ice Climbers were meant to be chain grabbers to begin with, considering how limited their grab range is. The developers may have found a way to counter the unintentional grab game issue by giving fighters a grab immunity period upon being thrown. But Nana not being able to save Popo from being grabbed is too heavy of a nerf, as that practically destroys the purpose of trying to stay together. AND the opposing fighter can potentially take advantage of Nana's helpless condition along the way, especially if the throw has collateral damage properties.

I completely agree. Nana not being able to save Popo... we'll see how that plays out. But that is really a heavy nerf.

 

[meleebrawler]

They gave a similar nerf to Luma back in Smash, and it panicked every time Rosa was in hitstun, unlike Nana. Keep in mind that they have a new mechanic
that they can disregard due to to their two-in-one nature: parries. Because only the person that landed the parried blow gets additional hitlag,
the other climber is free to continue attacking and prevent the counter.

Beyond that, all they have to do is buff the rest of their kit to make up for the loss in their grab potency, and I already see signs of this with a wider
uair and, I repeat, the insane spiking angle on Nana's fair.

 

[Smasher89]

In rosalinas case the nerf was probably because of the rage uptilt though (could kill at 3% before a ton of tweaking). For ICs it's not even that big more then being the closest to immune to chaingrab shenanigans.
Since the freeze does seem more consistent from down b, maybe we at least get blizzard>footstool>blizzard (before being able to tech on the ground) repeat in the initial release to then soon get removed.
IC's were balanced in brawl, it was just that shields in general was such a strong tool, that the one character that can capitalize the best against that great option is the perfect anti meta pick.

 

[ClimbersOfIce]

Nakat uploaded a new video in which the ice climbers pull off some nice desync shenanigans. https://youtu.be/ladbDU-46dc
There is something that I'm wondering about that is hard to put into words but I'll try. Ok, here goes... So Nana goes into a celebrating animation while popo throws and she can't do anything while popo grabs, we know that. But what IF the climbers are desynced and the following sequence occurs: Popo Down B -> Nana down B (keep in mind they're desynced) -> popo grab(when popo is grabbing, Nana is still in her down b animation)
Is it possible for Nana to follow up after popos throw after her down b animation finishes, taking into account she can't celebrate when popo throws because she is till finalizing her down B animation? It sounds weird the way I put it but hopefully someone understands. Basically, can you cheat the game to NOT make Nana taunt while popo throws due to a desync?

 

[Xebenkeck]

There have been vids where popo grabs and nana doesnt go into that animation. Dont worry people will figure out the new way they work amd I'm sure some sort of regrab setup will be found.

I think of the ice block lock in brawl. Dthrow to fair to neutral b into forced get up into regrab.

Maybe not necessarily this but im sure something will be found.

Could be somethin as dumb as nana being on a ledge desyncs her if popo is not.

 

[Smasher89]

I think of the ice block lock in brawl. Dthrow to fair to neutral b into forced get up into regrab.

.

you mean the footstool version?, footstool is now techable, and dthrow fair most likely is not a thing anymore, throw to smash seemingly isnt so...

That said, there was 1 clip i saw where i think someone threw, walked into a smash, and nana didnt do anything, which could be a possible desynch setup. It was a match ics vs cloud on bf, where cloud airdodged out of dthrow at 0.

 

[Xebenkeck]

No, the dthrow to fair is techable in brawl. But it was always a nice mix up because a lot of people wouldnt expect it. If they didnt tech it led into ice block lock which forced a stand up which is a guarenteed regrab. I just remember this one because when in brawl they tried to implement a three grab regrab limit, I beleive it wasLain’s IC would just do this because technically it wasnt a regrab, but it was a guarented regrab if they didnt tech. And if they did its a tech chase so.....ya

Not saying this will exist on smash ult. But the ice climbers have been so versatile in the past that i’m positive there will be SOMETHING that will get a regrab possible.

Weve seen ice climbers desynced so in theory if nana is doing say a side b while popo is grabbing, who to say you cant buffer her movement during the grab. Buffering’s been in brawl amd smash4, i dont know if its confirmed in smash ult, but i cant see them getting rid of it.

Ultimatly if that is the case I imagine a buffered input would take precedense over a nana “flail”/“cheer” animation. So something like a nana side b into popo grab and instant dthrow into a buffered nana dair, to regrab i beleive “should” be possible.

But thats just a regrab, there might not be infinates, but hey a 50% combo isnt something to laugh at.

 

[Smasher89]

yeaa yea, fthrow fair was also good before the tech was available for free regrabs, cant recall the excact %, but around 0%-19-29% depending on matchup.

Has anyone been able to test dsmash?, i recall the inner hitbox in brawl had some crazy damage output (43%?)

 

[DJ3DS]

yeaa yea, fthrow fair was also good before the tech was available for free regrabs, cant recall the excact %, but around 0%-19-29% depending on matchup.

Has anyone been able to test dsmash?, i recall the inner hitbox in brawl had some crazy damage output (43%?)

They have a new down smash where Nana and Popo hit a single side each. It's a stronger KO move at the expense of less absurd damage output and the move only hitting on one side without Nana.

 

[Darklink401]

I'll really miss the smash attacks off of grab even more than super grab punishes, because it was a simple way to reward you with a stock if you got the grab and had Nana.

That being said, I think at least since spikes have been theorized and tested to not be techable on the ground (maybe in the air too?) this could lead to some wonky desync fair spike chains onstage (although it seems sakurai made their fair spike a super unforgiving down-away angle, maybe to prevent that as well)

 

[Smasher89]

That being said, I think at least since spikes have been theorized and tested to not be techable on the ground (maybe in the air too?) this could lead to some wonky desync fair spike chains onstage (although it seems sakurai made their fair spike a super unforgiving down-away angle, maybe to prevent that as well)

Heard that got debunked and those people were just that bad at teching lol

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll really miss the smash attacks off of grab even more than super grab punishes, because it was a simple way to reward you with a stock if you got the grab and had Nana.

That being said, I think at least since spikes have been theorized and tested to not be techable on the ground (maybe in the air too?) this could lead to some wonky desync fair spike chains onstage (although it seems sakurai made their fair spike a super unforgiving down-away angle, maybe to prevent that as well)

Perhaps, but it makes said spike devastating anywhere near the edge.