Article about Brawl tournament potential.

[G-X]

(I just looked a few pages back and saw that Random6669 responded to my comment)

One point that needs to be stated, my "Control Factor" hypothesis was developed to help try to explain the fighting game genre only. Relating it to chess and real time strategies is irrelevant because it does not apply. I did not do my analysis on any other style of game so it has no link to other styles.

Point taken. However, and this was my original point, if a fighting game was more like chess, it would be more competitive.

This write was not a traditional research paper. This article was an exploratory essay where the goal is not to form a thesis statement and do research on it but to question a current belief so much that in the end you find a thesis statement, and that is exactly what I did.

Point taken.

This was not written originally with Smash Boards as the intended audience. It was after I completed the paper that friends of mine wanted me to post it here, so I did. This was originally written with an audience in mind that may or may not even play video games. The paper also has a double point. It makes a prediction and at the same time it shows my thought process which is another aspect of exploratory essay.

Point taken.

That actually was my exact quote just to clear that up. The person I was talking to was SamDvds so she can confirm this. Minor point but I feel I needed to clarify that.

I was hoping for more discussion and responses arguing for or against the "Control Factor" which is ultimately the main point. Attacking the writing style and my writing ability (which I won't claim to be anything special) doesn't do anything but argue small unimportant qualities of the medium that the information was conveyed on. It doesn't argue the information. The response by G-X is not entirely focused on the writing, only somewhat. He makes some points that I am glad he brought up. Anyone could read even a Harvard Law School professor's writing and flaw it because it's not written the way you want to read it. Writing is different across the board depending on the writer and the audience for each individual instance. So, for future posts I hope to see more about the subject less about the structure.

Okay, you want serious discussion of your "control factor" theory? Let's go.

In a game where the control is such a big part of the game that you need to be so extremely precise to perform even a relatively simple action (SHFFL'ing, for example), that's bad.

In a game where you spend more focus on pressing your L-button at every opportunity than looking for opportunities to press your attack button, that's bad.

In a game where there is no rock, paper, scissors structure (shield/dodge >attack > grab); only a combo structure (Marth: Nair, Fair, Fair, Fair, Fair, Dair spike, game!); that's bad.

In a game where technical skill and dexterity (Being able to SHFFL the aforementioned Marth combo, for example) overshadow strategy, that's bad.

Melee was very combo-heavy (just so everyone's on the same page, I define a combo as a sequence of attacks wherein, if the first attack hits, all of the attacks hit). I was trying to make this an argument that Melee suffers from Slippery Slope, but each player gets four lives, so I guess it isn't as much of a problem in Melee than in some other games. That's one for you.

Also, DI exists in Melee. That sort of counts as a "combo breaker," so I guess that's another point for you.


In the end, Melee, much like Street Fighter 2 and Marvel vs. Capcom 2, was "a very good game, completely by accident."

Got any other arguments? I love to debate, so bring 'em on.

 

[mario-man]

Okay, you want serious discussion of your "control factor" theory? Let's go.

In a game where the control is such a big part of the game that you need to be so extremely precise to perform even a relatively simple action (SHFFL'ing, for example), that's bad.

In a game where you spend more focus on pressing your L-button at every opportunity than looking for opportunities to press your attack button, that's bad.

In a game where there is no rock, paper, scissors structure (shield/dodge >attack > grab); only a combo structure (Marth: Nair, Fair, Fair, Fair, Fair, Dair spike, game!); that's bad.

In a game where technical skill and dexterity (Being able to SHFFL the aforementioned Marth combo, for example) overshadow strategy, that's bad.

Melee was very combo-heavy (just so everyone's on the same page, I define a combo as a sequence of attacks wherein, if the first attack hits, all of the attacks hit). I was trying to make this an argument that Melee suffers from Slippery Slope, but each player gets four lives, so I guess it isn't as much of a problem in Melee than in some other games. That's one for you.

Also, DI exists in Melee. That sort of counts as a "combo breaker," so I guess that's another point for you.


In the end, Melee, much like Street Fighter 2 and Marvel vs. Capcom 2, was "a very good game, completely by accident."

Got any other arguments? I love to debate, so bring 'em on.

Okay, first, Melee is a VERY mind oriented game. I HOPE you are not implying that it isn't. If you ask ANY pro player, they will say that aton of people give pros a bad name by taking on the title of pro, but they don't deserve the name. The mental side is waaayy more important than the technical skill. In NO way does wavedashing or l-canceling overshadow the mental side. L-canceling is practiced hardcore to the max at first, so that you can get it down perfectly and not have to worry about it anymore. It is only there to open the door to combos. And btw, in Smash bros, your definition of a combo is false. If the first attack lands, you are simply now given the possibility to follow it up. YOU are in COMPLETE control of wether the whole combo lands or not.

As for there not being any rock, paper, scissors aspect of Smash; dude, wake up!! YES THERE IS!! It's so obvious it isn't even funny!! It's the same as any other fighter. You have three choices: Attack > Grab > Shield(block) > Attack. In fact, Smash is even BETTER in that sense cuz it also has a dodge feature which beats out both grab and attack, but still possibly loses if they dodge also or shield. Dude, check your facts next time. EDIT: OH yeah, Melee has yet another one. There are certain attacks that can also break shields, so you have to weigh both the pros and cons of those moves too in the split seconds before you do them, and the inverse if the other person does them.

 

[Goldkirby]

I agree with most of your article except for the part where any Street Fighter and Tekken game are not as good competitive games as Melee. I do however agree that DoA is too easy to play, personally I think DoA is a garbage game, but that's besides the point.

Anyways, those games imo probably take more tech skill and timing then melee, while at the same time require just as much if not more spacing. Take for example, in one of the "Street Fighter" games, Capcom vs. SNK2. I can assure you that doing Sakura's shosho train or Dictator's PTF is much harder then anything you will ever do in smash, after all doing repeated dragon punch motions quickly, accurately and correctly timed is not easy task. There are also incredibly hard and damaging combos that basically require pre-programmed controllers to do, since they are pretty much unreasonably difficult, much like the Perfect Control videos.

Also, another game, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is probably the game that rewards a person for tech skill more so then any other game I've ever seen. Magneto's ROM Infinite is no easy task to learn, yet it is considered a basic starting ground in the game. Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core is also another tech skill heavy game. Basically if you can't learn to time stuff within a 2-6 frame period, you won't ever be any good at that game.

Those are just a couple of examples, and while I agree with most of what you say, I just cannot allow you to say that other fighting games are more limiting then smash . It is all a matter of opinion like you said, but I am one that thinks that some other fighting games offer just as much depth, if not more then Melee. I really do think Melee is a great game, and in fact it's actually the fighting game I am best at out of all of the ones I have talked about, but I recognize and respect the skill it takes to play the more traditional fighting games (Except for DoA cause that game is garbage ).

 

[TK Wolf]

Okay, first, Melee is a VERY mind oriented game. I HOPE you are not implying that it isn't. If you ask ANY pro player, they will say that aton of people give pros a bad name by taking on the title of pro, but they don't deserve the name. The mental side is waaayy more important than the technical skill. In NO way does wavedashing or l-canceling overshadow the mental side. L-canceling is practiced hardcore to the max at first, so that you can get it down perfectly and not have to worry about it anymore. It is only there to open the door to combos. And btw, in Smash bros, your definition of a combo is false. If the first attack lands, you are simply now given the possibility to follow it up. YOU are in COMPLETE control of wether the whole combo lands or not.

As for there not being any rock, paper, scissors aspect of Smash; dude, wake up!! YES THERE IS!! It's so obvious it isn't even funny!! It's the same as any other fighter. You have three choices: Attack > Grab > Shield(block) > Attack. In fact, Smash is even BETTER in that sense cuz it also has a dodge feature which beats out both grab and attack, but still possibly loses if they dodge also or shield. Dude, check your facts next time. EDIT: OH yeah, Melee has yet another one. There are certain attacks that can also break shields, so you have to weigh both the pros and cons of those moves too in the split seconds before you do them, and the inverse if the other person does them.

No, the strategy is still there, of course. But what he meant was that if a player is anything below that level where they can almost-perfectly control their character, the technical input-skill is huge compared to strategy. Also, this isn't saying "OMG I can't wavedash or l-cancel" it's about being able to pull off the inputs for serious combos that involve lots of dexterity.

One thing I'd like to point out is that once BOTH players have gotten to the point where they can do all these things, that problem fades away.

 

[Random6669]

I love your enthusiasm G-X, I really do.

I see your point of view. I think I understand what you are trying to say. (G-X if I am assuming wrong please correct me)

You're saying that in Melee the "accuracy and precision factor" is too demanding for even the simplest forms of movement. This is a drawback to Melee being a tournament and competitive friendly game.

If I have assumed this correctly I see your point and that is a question I have asked myself. Not necessarily about Melee but I have asked how much difficulty to obtain freedom of control is necessary.

That is a good question.
Just how much difficulty to get to this control is necessary?

Do we want a game that is even more free with even less controller work to play?

With less control demands alone would the game exhibit more freedom?

Can we even hope to make these assumptions without having test games to observe?

These are the kinds of responses I am hoping for. G-X's comment is getting closer but it still kind of teeters on small pieces (moves and techniques) and specific games.

If anyone wants to give their answers for the previous questions feel free to.

 

[mario-man]

One thing I'd like to point out is that once BOTH players have gotten to the point where they can do all these things, that problem fades away.

Oh, in that case, practically EVERYONE in the competetive Melee scene can so...there goes that argument. Next plz

 

[TK Wolf]

Oh, in that case, practically EVERYONE in the competetive Melee scene can so...there goes that argument. Next plz

So everyone can pull off a ken combo, or multi-waveshine juggles (without a wall)? Not from the tourneys I've been to... There have been people who could, but not all that many.

However, I suppose for those that can't get the really tough input, there are other good characters that can be played well without with less control difficulty. (aka, peach: Needs timing and intelligence, but not lightning fast fingers, samus, etc)


EDIT: Hmm... I think I've gotten a bit distracted from the initial argument. This isn't about Melee so much as it is about Brawl. So I'll ask you a question: If players have gotten to a point where they can fully utilize their character, then control is obviously not a factor. So if they get to that point easier, is that bad? That's how I see Brawl.

The range and quality of options available to characters, I think, is that will be the deciding factor. If control shifts from lightning fast input to even-more precise timing of attacks, is that necessarily bad? As long as players aren't too confined, I would say no.

I guess to steamline the question, there are 2 cases:
1) Players CAN reach the point of complete control over their character. In which case, once that is reached, it's 100% how they use their character's abilities, strategy, etc.
2) Players CANNOT reach that point but can slowly improve. In which case it's not just using the options available to your character, but being capable of using those options as well. To some degree, this must make strategy and how characters are used less important than if all characters could be fully utilized.

Brawl looks like #1, Melee looks like #2. Melee is a friggin-awesome game, but don't think Brawl looses potential from this shift. I guess we'll know for sure in a year or so.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Uhhh.... so everyone can pull off a ken combo

Yes.

or pull off fox multi-waveshine juggles (without a wall)?

A fair amount of them can get two or three shines

Not from the tourneys I've been to... There have been people who could, but not all that many from what I've seen.

Go to bigger tournaments

However, I suppose for those that can't get the really tough input, there are other good characters that can be played well without with less control difficulty. (aka, peach: Needs timing and intelligence, but not lightning fast fingers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu8SDqW6OaQ&feature=related
Don't insult Peach's tech skill

EDIT: Hmm... I think I've gotten a bit distracted from the initial argument. This isn't about so much as it is about Brawl. So I'll ask you a question. If players have gotten to a point where they can fully utilize their character, then control is obviously not an issue. So if they get to that point easier, is that bad? That's how I see Brawl. The range and quality of options available to characters, I think, is that will be the deciding factor. If control shifts from lightning fast input to even-more precise timing of attacks, is that necessarily bad?

Of course, this is conjecture, since I haven't played Brawl. ^^;

The thing is, the fast inputs were not what made melee great. It was the options that those fast inputs brought. Lag canceling opened up new pressure and combo options, dash dancing and wavedashing created new fake out opportunities, but all of these things were taken out. Control is a big issue! It was taken away from us. If they made the moves less laggy (and put the stun back in them) then combos would still be possible. If they allowed us a quick way to move back and forth, then that type of fake out would still be there.

Although I must say tripping was one of the biggest insults this game has given. Now you randomly lose control of your character and have them fall? WTF.

I guess to steamline the question, there are 2 cases:
1) Players CAN reach the point of complete control over their character. In which case, once that is reached, it's all how they use their character's abilities
2) Players CANNOT reach that point but can slowly improve. In which case it's not just using the options available to your character, but being capable of using those options as well. To some degree, this must make strategy and how characters are used less important than if all characters could be fully utilized.

I'm not at all saying that Melee is only about input-skill. Far from it. But I don't see #1 as a bad thing, assuming there are still many options available to players.

But so far there really aren't that many options available. #2 is exactly what I would want in a fighting game. #2 is easily seen in games like Guilty Gear, where roman canceling opens almost infinite opportunities. It forces you to do both, and is the ultimate test of general skill.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sir that was a great article you wrote and even though I disagree with you about how brawl will have less potential then melee I can clearly see why you would think this.

I still hold what I dare call faith in the competitive smash community to find and abuse new ways of movement, attack, and even strategy to such a level that there isn’t a doubt in my mind that Brawl will surpass Melee

 

[brawlpro]

However, I suppose for those that can't get the really tough input, there are other good characters that can be played well without with less control difficulty. (aka, peach: Needs timing and intelligence, but not lightning fast fingers,

Look here at 00:36 - 00:40, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_3gvnGatuY I donno how someone could do that with peach without lightning fast fingers

 

[Fearthesmash]

First I'd like to say, that was an excellent read and I am full agreement with your opinion.


However having played about 50 matches of brawl on my friends imported copy, the game is quite obviously more geared towards the less compeditive player; this makes obvious sense for business reasons especially for Nintendo who is known for starting the "casual gaming" genre.

That said, I will refer to your example with a 1,200 cap for character potential. The speed for Melee made achieving actual full potential of the game to be much more difficult, if not impossible. I feel Brawl has a more human capacity potential. Maybe something closer to an 800-900 level. While its true that it has decreased, it is still at a level which will take even the best several years to reach. In addition I feel a much larger amount of the cast has a higher potential.

Personally as an "advanced casual player"(I've been to a couple tournaments, I've never won but I can compete) The game feels like something far more enjoyable. The only way I can explain this is the fact that in Melee matches between lower tier characters when skill levels were similar, came down to last stock and whoever landed the final hit or whoever pulled off a good combo; Were ,I found much more fun than running around frustrated with the SHPL'ing Falco who would spend the whole fight running and lasering.

In conclusion, does it have the same tournament potential as Melee? absolutely no one knows anywhere close to enough to say. But If I were to offer my intuition I would say yes; tt will have a tournament scene and yes it will be far more diverse in skill levels and characters than Melee.

 

[G-X]

Okay, first, Melee is a VERY mind oriented game. I HOPE you are not implying that it isn't. If you ask ANY pro player, they will say that aton of people give pros a bad name by taking on the title of pro, but they don't deserve the name. The mental side is waaayy more important than the technical skill. In NO way does wavedashing or l-canceling overshadow the mental side.

Hypothetical situation:

A guy goes to a big tournament. He knows all about mindgames, strats, and stuff, but he doesn't have enough hand-eye coordination to L-Cancel aerials. He's going to lose, right?

L-canceling is practiced hardcore to the max at first, so that you can get it down perfectly and not have to worry about it anymore.

My point is that you shouldn't have to "practice hardcore to the max" in the first place.

It is only there to open the door to combos. And btw, in Smash bros, your definition of a combo is false. If the first attack lands, you are simply now given the possibility to follow it up. YOU are in COMPLETE control of wether the whole combo lands or not.

...What the hell?

As for there not being any rock, paper, scissors aspect of Smash; dude, wake up!! YES THERE IS!! It's so obvious it isn't even funny!! It's the same as any other fighter. You have three choices: Attack > Grab > Shield(block) > Attack.

Except you can grab someone during an attack animation. That really threw me off the first time a CP did that to me.

In fact, Smash is even BETTER in that sense cuz it also has a dodge feature which beats out both grab and attack, but still possibly loses if they dodge also or shield. Dude, check your facts next time.

I don't claim to know everything about Melee (I know very little about Melee, as you seem to have discovered); I was merely speaking in the abstract.

EDIT: OH yeah, Melee has yet another one. There are certain attacks that can also break shields, so you have to weigh both the pros and cons of those moves too in the split seconds before you do them, and the inverse if the other person does them.

I can't decide whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[TK Wolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu8SDqW6OaQ&feature=related
Don't insult Peach's tech skill

I never did. But I think that the tech-skill involved in peach focuses far more on the timing and spacing of your attacks than lightning-fast fingers.

The thing is, the fast inputs were not what made melee great. It was the options that those fast inputs brought. Lag canceling opened up new pressure and combo options, dash dancing and wavedashing created new fake out opportunities, but all of these things were taken out. Control is a big issue! It was taken away from us. If they made the moves less laggy (and put the stun back in them) then combos would still be possible. If they allowed us a quick way to move back and forth, then that type of fake out would still be there.

Although I must say tripping was one of the biggest insults this game has given. Now you randomly lose control of your character and have them fall? WTF.

I agree completely that it's the options available, not the fast input. I'm hoping that many viable options will exist in Brawl, that is the key component of what will make it great, IMO.

But so far there really aren't that many options available. #2 is exactly what I would want in a fighting game. #2 is easily seen in games like Guilty Gear, where roman canceling opens almost infinite opportunities. It forces you to do both, and is the ultimate test of general skill.

Again, I'm hoping that we'll find the game to have enough options with some time, or that in some ways or others, the metagame will evolve. If the metagame hits a standstill and doesn't budge, we'll know it's not a good game. I don't know of many games where this has happened though, so I'm very hopeful.

GG is my 2nd favorite fighter, right next to Melee. However, I feel that in GG control is easier than in Melee, but doesn't feel constricted either. It's very fast, but I don't need to waste concentration on L-canceling. And please don't misunderstand me here. I know how to shffl and such. It's just that I find it very frustrating that your attacks have variable lag depending on an extra button press, and feel like the l-cancel should have been automatic in all cases. It would have made Melee even better, IMO. (like from a 9.9 to a 10, lol)

 

[XIF]

Okay, you want serious discussion of your "control factor" theory? Let's go.

Oh dear.

In a game where the control is such a big part of the game that you need to be so extremely precise to perform even a relatively simple action (SHFFL'ing, for example), that's bad.

Sorry that you're just so bad you cant realize how simple those actions get. I know I can shffl all 5 aerials with every character and I LITERALLY dont even need to look at the TV, I can waveshine without looking, l-cancelling has gotten to the point where even when I dont need to with peach I instinctively press R to l cancel. Oh, and I can also do shine shffl any aerial with falco without even looking either, which I've done just to be an idiot with my friends. Any player worth anything in tournaments could also at the very least l-cancel, wavedash, and shffl with very little effort.

In a game where you spend more focus on pressing your L-button at every opportunity than looking for opportunities to press your attack button, that's bad.

once again, pressing L (or R for me) should be the natural consequent of any time you wish to attack in the air and then land on the ground. You shouldnt even need to think and if you do then you just arent good.

In a game where there is no rock, paper, scissors structure (shield/dodge >attack > grab); only a combo structure (Marth: Nair, Fair, Fair, Fair, Fair, Dair spike, game!); that's bad.

That's just plain stupid. I'll give you an example in melee that completely debunks this, because melee has (to use a word I got from sirlin) infinite layers of yomi like any other game.

You have a Fox ditto on FD. One fox is dash dancing while the other is standing on opposite sides of the stage. Fox 1 is dash dancing and Fox 2 is the other. Now Fox2 could try to come in with a shffl'd nair into a shine and trie to tech follow from there. But Fox1 could counter this by extending his dash dance one time away from Fox2 and then simply come back and grab and get an up throw combo from there. Fox2 could then anticipate this and simply dash further than what Fox1 would expect and hit him anyway. Fox1 could also anticipate this and try baiting Fox2 into performing that very action, only to dash back and then SHEIL instead of dash back once again and then do a shffl'd bair out of sheild. Fox2 could negate all of that by then simply dashing further and grabbing Fox1's sheild. Or Fox1 could side step instead.

I could go on for a while, so i'll just say stuff it about there being only a combo structure.

In a game where technical skill and dexterity (Being able to SHFFL the aforementioned Marth combo, for example) overshadow strategy, that's bad.

I admit that technical skill in melee can help a weaker minded player do better, there is no absolute substitute for a smart player, end of discussion.

Melee was very combo-heavy (just so everyone's on the same page, I define a combo as a sequence of attacks wherein, if the first attack hits, all of the attacks hit). I was trying to make this an argument that Melee suffers from Slippery Slope, but each player gets four lives, so I guess it isn't as much of a problem in Melee than in some other games. That's one for you.

Also, DI exists in Melee. That sort of counts as a "combo breaker," so I guess that's another point for you.

way to do my job for me and make your argument completely impotent.

In the end, Melee, much like Street Fighter 2 and Marvel vs. Capcom 2, was "a very good game, completely by accident."

Got any other arguments? I love to debate, so bring 'em on.

gg scrub qq more pl0x.

 

[TK Wolf]

double-post

 

[XIF]

thanks for giving my combo video more page views guys =D

And while you'd be wrong to look at my video and say those combos required more spacing than technical skill, I will say that you dont need to play peach that way to win. Anyone watch vidjo play at pound3? snorefest 2008 mirite?

 

[mario-man]

EDIT: Hmm... I think I've gotten a bit distracted from the initial argument. This isn't about Melee so much as it is about Brawl. So I'll ask you a question: If players have gotten to a point where they can fully utilize their character, then control is obviously not a factor. So if they get to that point easier, is that bad? That's how I see Brawl.

It's so nice to have a discussion without flame wars. I love it.

I can understand you now. I completely understand why you feel that way, but I do not. I think that it being more difficult to do seperates the players who care to dominate, and those who don't. If you want to be a pro, then you should have to prove it on EVERY level available to the game. The mental side is the most important, but it is not the only one. There is also tech skill. Therefore you should have to prove that you are a pro in every aspect of the game. I strongly feel this way, and I'm at least glad of two things: 1. I don't have to flame you because you're dumb, cuz you're not. We just differ in opinions of how the game should be. 2. I'm also glad that there are others who feel the same way as me.

EDIT: XIF, dude, how many freakin combo vids do you have?!?! You put out like two last year in the same month. lol

I love that Bowser music but it doesn't really fit the vid IMO.

 

[XIF]

EDIT: XIF, dude, how many freakin combo vids do you have?!?! You put out like two last year in the same month. lol

I love that Bowser music but it doesn't really fit the vid IMO.

I cant stop people from making videos for me <_<;

 

[TK Wolf]

thanks for giving my combo video more page views guys =D

And while you'd be wrong to look at my video and say those combos required more spacing than technical skill, I will say that you dont need to play peach that way to win. Anyone watch vidjo play at pound3? snorefest 2008 mirite?

Really, I shouldn't have commented much about Peach at all, since I only play her casually and have never gotten good enough to reach such a level with her. It was mainly from observations I've made seeing other players and trying to apply them to my own playing.

Thanks for not flaming me over it though. xD
(Also, where did you get that bowser music? I also think awesome, too, ^^

It's so nice to have a discussion without flame wars. I love it.

I can understand you now. I completely understand why you feel that way, but I do not. I think that it being more difficult to do seperates the players who care to dominate, and those who don't. If you want to be a pro, then you should have to prove it on EVERY level available to the game. The mental side is the most important, but it is not the only one. There is also tech skill. Therefore you should have to prove that you are a pro in every aspect of the game. I strongly feel this way, and I'm at least glad of two things: 1. I don't have to flame you because you're dumb, cuz you're not. We just differ in opinions of how the game should be. 2. I'm also glad that there are others who feel the same way as me.

EDIT: XIF, dude, how many freakin combo vids do you have?!?! You put out like two last year in the same month. lol

I love that Bowser music but it doesn't really fit the vid IMO.

I actually feel similar to you in many ways. I like that melee is how it is, even though I'm frustrated at times because I mess up l-canceling too often (like when I see an opening to do a drill to waveshine to upsmash or whatever) and have never been able to get as technically sufficient as I want to be with fox or marth despite tons of practice. But I do like how control is a big part of the game in Melee. It's just that I ALSO would enjoy a game where that isn't the case, and think it can still be very competitive.

 

[SamDvds]

XIF is top tier.

 

[Random6669]

Discussion getting kind of off topic.

The posts are getting more and more focused on small details.

I am hoping for more arguments about what qualities we have seen, qualities that are good, and qualities that are bad.

By "qualities" I don't mean wave-dashing and L-canceling, I want to evoke thought about broader terms, not specific instances which have been argued to death already and don't help us grasp the reasons for competitive gaming and for why we play them.

It is difficult to think about games we have been so focused on the finer details about in far more general terms. It was not easy for me so I should not expect it to be easy for anyone, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

I'm glad you guys are discussing a lot of things in a manner I don't normally see on this website. It is step in the right direction, but we can do even better.

Keep it up!

 

[XIF]

I was really hoping that this guy GX would post again <_<;

 

[G-X]

Oh dear.

I lol'd

Sorry that you're just so bad you cant realize how simple those actions get. I know I can shffl all 5 aerials with every character and I LITERALLY dont even need to look at the TV, I can waveshine without looking, l-cancelling has gotten to the point where even when I dont need to with peach I instinctively press R to l cancel. Oh, and I can also do shine shffl any aerial with falco without even looking either, which I've done just to be an idiot with my friends. Any player worth anything in tournaments could also at the very least l-cancel, wavedash, and shffl with very little effort.

See, that's my point. If it's become second nature to you to the point where you can do it without even thinking... why does it need to be in the game? Imagine if, in order to jump, you had to press Y, X, and B with perfect timing. People would begin to do it without thinking, but what's the point?

once again, pressing L (or R for me) should be the natural consequent of any time you wish to attack in the air and then land on the ground. You shouldnt even need to think and if you do then you just arent good.

Once again, if you don't need to think, why to you need to push a button? It has no point, other than punishing those with poor dexterity and hand-eye coordination.

That's just plain stupid.

Oh dear.

I'll give you an example in melee that completely debunks this, because melee has (to use a word I got from sirlin) infinite layers of yomi like any other game.

Oh, don't even get me started on yomi.

You have a Fox ditto on FD. One fox is dash dancing while the other is standing on opposite sides of the stage. Fox 1 is dash dancing and Fox 2 is the other. Now Fox2 could try to come in with a shffl'd nair into a shine and trie to tech follow from there. But Fox1 could counter this by extending his dash dance one time away from Fox2 and then simply come back and grab and get an up throw combo from there. Fox2 could then anticipate this and simply dash further than what Fox1 would expect and hit him anyway. Fox1 could also anticipate this and try baiting Fox2 into performing that very action, only to dash back and then SHEIL instead of dash back once again and then do a shffl'd bair out of sheild. Fox2 could negate all of that by then simply dashing further and grabbing Fox1's sheild. Or Fox1 could side step instead.

I could go on for a while, so i'll just say stuff it about there being only a combo structure.

Yeah. I... Yeah.

I admit that technical skill in melee can help a weaker minded player do better, there is no absolute substitute for a smart player, end of discussion.

OK, discussion over.

 

[BentoBox]

I wonder how melee would have turned out if it hadn't been rushed.

XIF, why encourage the implementation of technical barriers when you very well know that smashbros has always been about intuitive gameplay.

 

[Knight-errant]

The posts are getting more and more focused on small details.

I am hoping for more arguments about what qualities we have seen, qualities that are good, and qualities that are bad.

By "qualities" I don't mean wave-dashing and L-canceling, I want to evoke thought about broader terms, not specific instances which have been argued to death already and don't help us grasp the reasons for competitive gaming and for why we play them.

It is difficult to think about games we have been so focused on the finer details about in far more general terms. It was not easy for me so I should not expect it to be easy for anyone, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

I'm glad you guys are discussing a lot of things in a manner I don't normally see on this website. It is step in the right direction, but we can do even better.

Keep it up!

To try and move to a more general topic...

I've been reading through some of the posts, but I haven't read ALL seven pages, so bear with me if I repeat something.

One of the broader topics you mentioned was the "consistency of outcome" factor. I'm guessing you would define that as something like: "Given I execute the controls perfectly, if I use a specific move or chain of moves against a specific character at a specific percentile range, then the same outcome should take place in each trial." In other words, if you perform a shine with falco against fox with low percent, you can pillar him for a good while. And that's consistent: you can do it in today's match, and tomorrow's. If there's a fox at low percent you can pillar him. However, if you've got a Marth at high percent, then you *aren't* going to be able to pillar. Since these factors are consistent (fox's at low percent can be pillard and Marth's at high percent can't) then you can form strategies and plan your attacks based on this knowledge. (sorry Random, I had to use specific examples to try and convey what I meant with the general idea).

Now, unitl you mentioned it Random, I hadn't realized how important of a factor this is. If you can't rely on consistent outcomes when a particular event happens, then basically all strategy is lost, because you can't plan your attack/defense based on what happens, because what happens will change with every new outcome.

Anyways, hopefully that made sense, and it's what you were talking about with that factor. Also, hopefully someone has some comment that can take that discussion further; right now I've got to get ready to go though. Baically just trying to open discussion to the "consistency of outcome factor."

 

[XIF]

I lol'd
See, that's my point. If it's become second nature to you to the point where you can do it without even thinking... why does it need to be in the game? Imagine if, in order to jump, you had to press Y, X, and B with perfect timing. People would begin to do it without thinking, but what's the point?


Once again, if you don't need to think, why to you need to push a button? It has no point, other than punishing those with poor dexterity and hand-eye coordination.

you get to a point though that you over simplify things. Image if instead of being a jump button, X was macro'd for perfect waveshines. Or what ever it meant perfect shffl'd uairs for cfal or mario? This is still a fighting game not chess, and while it should get to the point that you shouldnt have to think about it really, you should be punished for not playing perfectly. If you want a game thats pure thought play Go or Chess. But this is a fighting game and those who are on their A-game should be those who fare better than others given they are of the same cognitive ability. Rewards are given to the more technical player, its like the core concept of any fighting game. I play guilty gear and for the life of me I still cant do half circles on the control pad properly. Does that mean I should disregard it and say that it shouldnt be there in the first place because if I practice enough I'll be able to do it easily anyway? No, I should be forced to practice it because the whole point of playing guilty gear and doing that specific move is to do the half circle in the first place.

Yes, without care it could also be counter productive and get too complicated. But that isnt really the case in melee. If you wanna play that game might as well just talk out your strategies instead of actually playing. imagine the next tournament you go to there arent any gamecubes, but instead each player takes turns discussing what tactic they will use and what they predict their opponent to do. It'd be much like pokemon, but pokemon is pokemon and smash is smash. I play both, but they are different games, and if you wanna simplify melee like that then you shouldnt be playing melee at all.

It has no point, other than punishing those with poor dexterity and hand-eye coordination.

But that is precisely the point.

 

[mario-man]

I agree,

XIF is deffinitely top tier

 

[J18]

d@mn dude you guys are writing essays here.
couple more posts and you got a book

 

[SonicSmash001]

I love your article and its melee discussion, but nowhere do I see proof that brawl will not be as deep as melee. I can't say don't jump to your conclusions because you didn't, but you still don't have proof, untill you play the game you can't really tell what brawl will be like.

 

[gangstajuice02]

SO MUCH words from a Smash CHILD!!

 

[mario-man]

SO MUCH words from a Smash CHILD!!

Lay off alright. You were one just 2 months ago or less.

Plus, that has NOTHING to do with it. He may be the person that studies this game more than anyone else. Not saying he is, but the point is that it doesn't matter what his post count is. Not everybody posts as often as me or you, though there are alot of them that do. Seriously dude, he's been on the boards for 2 years.

 

[G-X]

It has no point, other than punishing those with poor dexterity and hand-eye coordination.

But that is precisely the point.

But WHY do we need to do that? Why should dexterity be a part of a game that is essentially about thinking? That guy a few pages back got it right, it should be a battle between the players' minds, not their fingers.

Of course, they could spend hours practicing how to L-cancel and waveshine, but what's the point? If those techniques weren't in the game, they could spend those hours on something else. Like actually playing the game.

Sigh. I grow weary of this argument.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Because a fighting game is supposed to be both? Because a fighting game is an imitation of fighting, in which a persons physical ability is also important and not just his mental capability? Could it be that they are actually trying to diferentiate from a strategy role playing game like pokemon?

That's WHY we need that. Fighting games are essentially about fighting, a large part of which is simply physical ability and muscle memory. Thinking is indeed a very large part of it, but the technical aspects should be there, just as they would be in real life.

 

[red stone]

real life is the best fighting game. a little unbalanced though

 

[G-X]

^^Because a fighting game is supposed to be both? Because a fighting game is an imitation of fighting, in which a persons physical ability is also important and not just his mental capability? Could it be that they are actually trying to diferentiate from a strategy role playing game like pokemon?

That's WHY we need that. Fighting games are essentially about fighting, a large part of which is simply physical ability and muscle memory. Thinking is indeed a very large part of it, but the technical aspects should be there, just as they would be in real life.

OK. :/


10char

 

[Knight-errant]

But WHY do we need to do that? Why should dexterity be a part of a game that is essentially about thinking? That guy a few pages back got it right, it should be a battle between the players' minds, not their fingers.

Of course, they could spend hours practicing how to L-cancel and waveshine, but what's the point? If those techniques weren't in the game, they could spend those hours on something else. Like actually playing the game.

Sigh. I grow weary of this argument.

The game is not "essentially about thinking." (like someone stated before, that would be chess). Smash is "essentially about thinking how you will KO the other guy, AND then doing it." Right now you're stuck on only the thinking part. But there's always two parts, and you can't just make plans, you've got to carry them out as well. And that's where the technical skill comes in. Whether you're sword-fighting or playing smash, there's technical skill involved, and it takes someone who can be good at both to be truly good at the game.

It's a battle between both the players' minds AND fingers.

Make sense?

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

As interesting as the topic was, perhaps putting an outline to your essay prior to it would make it easier to navigate. I couldn't read most of it out of sheer length.

I enjoyed the videos though. I'm surprised I've never seen them. They are very entertaining.

 

[brawlpro]

SO MUCH words from a Smash CHILD!!

irl random is smash awesome.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

The game is not "essentially about thinking." (like someone stated before, that would be chess). Smash is "essentially about thinking how you will KO the other guy, AND then doing it." Right now you're stuck on only the thinking part. But there's always two parts, and you can't just make plans, you've got to carry them out as well. And that's where the technical skill comes in. Whether you're sword-fighting or playing smash, there's technical skill involved, and it takes someone who can be good at both to be truly good at the game.

It's a battle between both the players' minds AND fingers.

Make sense?

QFT. A fighting game is about both the physical and the mental. There will always be a performance barrier, and there's nothing wrong with that until it starts to force out the mental. Chess is almost purely mental, and has been played for centuries; a game needs a strong mental aspect to stay interesting. Pure physicality leads to menial labour, and that's not fun to most people. Smash wouldn't be as exciting if it were pure mental, for then there would be no physical interface to speak of, just as if it were pure physical there would be no real point.

The real trick is having the physical and mental work together; the physical aspect should be simple and intuitive so the mental aspect can explore the tools given. That's why people play Chess and Magic: there's a simple physical barrier (you don't have to juggle your pieces for 2 minutes to play them) and enough variety to allow for an evolving metagame (which is almost purely mental). Even in fighting games, the physical part acts as the tool or the action. What is done with the action and how to use the tool is almost purely cerebral. If the tool gains more significance than the varied usages, play stagnates and the metagame dies.

That's why KI's C-C-C-COMBO BREAKERS have never been used in a game since: the tool forced only one menial usage. This is also why casuals and competitive players are always at odds: casuals resent people telling them how to use the tools they are given. The competitive players who cause this rift usually fetishize certain tools (ATs) over the usage of and experimentation of others (mindgaming). There's a reason that guys like Gimpy wrote that mindgaming is key and why M2K and others freaked about all of the Melee ATs being out. No matter what, there will be people who gravitate towards the usage/cerebral side (every low-tier pro ever, Chu, casuals) and others who gravitate towards the tool/physical side (Silent Wolf, the aforementioned M2K, most aspiring competitive players). The trick is not taking either side as the only correct one, but realizing that both aspects are necessary in harmony to make a game worth caring about.

There's also the development of the Melee comm as a whole which is telling, but this is tl;dr enough delving into that.

 

[OrlanduEX]

This is also why casuals and competitive players are always at odds: casuals resent people telling them how to use the tools they are given. The competitive players who cause this rift usually fetishize certain tools (ATs) over the usage of and experimentation of others (mindgaming). There's a reason that guys like Gimpy wrote that mindgaming is key and why M2K and others freaked about all of the Melee ATs being out. No matter what, there will be people who gravitate towards the usage/cerebral side (every low-tier pro ever, Chu, casuals) and others who gravitate towards the tool/physical side (Silent Wolf, the aforementioned M2K, most aspiring competitive players). The trick is not taking either side as the only correct one, but realizing that both aspects are necessary in harmony to make a game worth caring about.

There's also the development of the Melee comm as a whole which is telling, but this is tl;dr enough delving into that.

I think you've got the wrong picture there. Please don't forget that Smash Boards is primarily a competitive Smash forum. It was founded by competitively minded Smash players so they could share knowledge with each other, teach interested players, and organize tournaments.
The problem on Smash Boards is actually the reverse of what you mentioned. Casual players who don't understand competitive play flooding in and telling competitive players how the game should be played with all items, all stages, no "glitches" and the rest of that bs.

There are few skillful competitive players who will tell you that advanced techs are more important than the mental side of the game. The problem is that casual players feel that mind games are all-important and that advanced techs are unfair or some such. And newer competitive players tend to think that learning to wavedash = victory. To be skilled, one MUST find a balance in between.
Even the pros you mentioned like Gimpyfish and Chu Dat are incredibly skilled at advanced techs and wouldn't play without them.
And the highly technical players like M2K are also very proficient at mind games, M2K in particular.

All the Melee pros got where they are because they are masters of both technical AND mental skills in Smash Bros. Both are equally important.