BleachigoZX
Smash Master
How do you apply to the PMBR for ZSS?
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B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion
- Thread starter SinisterB
- Start date
be a personal friend or be so good they suck your **** for advice.
or be good at coding.
they'll say otherwise, but it's kinda true. :V
or be good at coding.
they'll say otherwise, but it's kinda true. :V
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BleachigoZX
Smash Master
I just feel like I'm not stupid and can balance her so that she isn't complete garbage like they're aiming to make her in 3.5.
Oro!? I know you're trying hard to keep them from nerfing her too hard and my heart goes out to ur ugly ass <3
Oro!? I know you're trying hard to keep them from nerfing her too hard and my heart goes out to ur ugly ass <3
Zss is kinda bad already and the fact that they're nerfing her even more is obnoxious.
Also bleachigo what have you accomplished in tournament? I kinda want that #2 zss status and you're in my way.
Also bleachigo what have you accomplished in tournament? I kinda want that #2 zss status and you're in my way.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Honestly I don't think I'm 2nd best. I've beaten Cruzycakes, YoungsterJoey, Hylian, Raptor, Deff, Lite, Guy and idk who else and taken games off Emukiller. I started entering events about a month ago and people are already calling me the 2nd best ZSS and I think people should wait before saying stuff like that.
Thank Professor Pro for the nerfs, idk what he sees, but his influence in the PMBR is really strong.
i think most of the pmbr is stupid and very "suck in their ways" when it comes to design choices. They've put together a relatively good game, one that I like a lot, but there's been a LOT of design and balance choices i disagree with.
i also think that they should stick to fixing mechanics and NOT focus on balance changes, and instead allow players to mature and the meta to develop.
I think people are calling you 2nd best because of exposure. Most people have little to know idea who I am and what I'm capable of. Even my own state underestimates me LOL.
i also think that they should stick to fixing mechanics and NOT focus on balance changes, and instead allow players to mature and the meta to develop.
I think people are calling you 2nd best because of exposure. Most people have little to know idea who I am and what I'm capable of. Even my own state underestimates me LOL.
Also Mercury > Mars.
Foo
Smash Lord
At least the nerf isn't that bad
I kinda agree with the recovery nerf as a whole though, recoveries are too strong atm. On battlefield, I could literally jump off the stage out of a dash, wait until I am both off the screen to the side and bottom, and I can still recover. If you use her max velocity down b and an up-boost with her double jump, you can recover from the absolute depths of hell.
Personally, I'd just make her up b tether range shorter (it's a little ridiculous) but make the tether work from farther under the stage, as well as buffing her grab. She can still recover from the depths of hell, but is easier to punish. I think it's better to just lessen the distance she can recover from.
Well, to be fair, they are focusing on mechanics over balance with the recovery nerfs. I disagree that up-b based tether recoveries need a nerf, but Z-tethers certainly do. I just hope they give ZSS something new to play with along with their nerf. Making her grab not the worst in the game would certainly make up for it.
I kinda agree with the recovery nerf as a whole though, recoveries are too strong atm. On battlefield, I could literally jump off the stage out of a dash, wait until I am both off the screen to the side and bottom, and I can still recover. If you use her max velocity down b and an up-boost with her double jump, you can recover from the absolute depths of hell.
Personally, I'd just make her up b tether range shorter (it's a little ridiculous) but make the tether work from farther under the stage, as well as buffing her grab. She can still recover from the depths of hell, but is easier to punish. I think it's better to just lessen the distance she can recover from.
tether recoveries aren't even OP. People just suck at edgeguarding them. People need to look to me, and K9 for inspiration. We **** on tether characters.
Foo
Smash Lord
I'm not saying tether recoveries as a whole are too good, but ZSS can recover from too far away and Z tethers are OP because it gives you two REALLY strong recovery options. My biggest problem with recoveries is that it's almost impossible to hit most characters to far away that they can't recover, unless they preformed a very ill advised crouch cancel. Either you gimped them, or you KO'd them off screen. While ZSS recovery isn't really hard to punish, it does allow you to recover pretty much no matter where you get sent. That doesn't make her OP, but I would gladly trade that for a buffed grab or fair.
zss's recovery is actually fairly predictable and easy to edgeguard. Just because she gets a lot of distance doesn't mean her recovery is actually good.
Foo
Smash Lord
Eh, I don't think it's that predictable. She actually can recover high if you up-b boost and DI upwards. She also has the ability to hang in the air for a while because her recovery covers so much distance.
Like I said, though, I like that her recovery can be punished, but not too easily. I just don't think it's good for the overall game for characters (her included) to recover from off the screen on two sides. If you make her up-b shorter range, it's exactly as easy to punish, but her recovery won't guarantee making it back to the stage if you have double jump (unless you get gimped).
Would you not trade some recovery distance to make grab a viable oos option or at least slightly less punishable?
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Give her a move that is invincible frames 1-4 and has a hitbox at 5f OoS, gernades and a fair with a stupid spike hitbox the size of Russia.
I swear to God Professor Pro ****en blowws.
I swear to God Professor Pro ****en blowws.
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Zss also does pretty well vs snake though.
Zss being able to go high helps but vs a lot of characters this still isn't enough. Nerfing her recovery and giving her a viable oos option would make more of her match ups more difficult than it would help. Go the falcon route. Accept zss has a bad oos game and focus more on never being caught in shield. Zss has wonderful defensive options and amazing mobility.
Zss can run off stage and come back with good hit boxes, down b has lots of options, wall jump, b reversals, boostjump with plasma wire...
She has good movement and great defensive options when she's not stuck in shield. Nair is an article and is unclankable, Bair is super strong, and uair is the falcon/Marth love child of moves. Utilt is active frame 3.
I actually like zss grab. It's long and has a lot of options, both offensive and defensive as long as you're not stuck in shield, and you can pressure players in to being scared and grab them.
Zss is a relatively safe character if you're willing to change how you approach how you play her.
I'll show some video of super safe zss pressure when I get off work
Zss being able to go high helps but vs a lot of characters this still isn't enough. Nerfing her recovery and giving her a viable oos option would make more of her match ups more difficult than it would help. Go the falcon route. Accept zss has a bad oos game and focus more on never being caught in shield. Zss has wonderful defensive options and amazing mobility.
Zss can run off stage and come back with good hit boxes, down b has lots of options, wall jump, b reversals, boostjump with plasma wire...
She has good movement and great defensive options when she's not stuck in shield. Nair is an article and is unclankable, Bair is super strong, and uair is the falcon/Marth love child of moves. Utilt is active frame 3.
I actually like zss grab. It's long and has a lot of options, both offensive and defensive as long as you're not stuck in shield, and you can pressure players in to being scared and grab them.
Zss is a relatively safe character if you're willing to change how you approach how you play her.
I'll show some video of super safe zss pressure when I get off work
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Foo
Smash Lord
I didn't say she NEEDS to have oos options, nor did I say she was really unsafe. I just said her grab is the worst in the game, which it is. The ONLY advantage it has over other tether grabs is that the hitbox goes out with the animation (very slowly), so you can catch people who roll back away from it. However, that is also one of it's biggest downsides, since it is very easy to dash away from, unlike Link's tether. It also hangs out much longer than most tethers (I think only lucas has a longer one with his dash grab that you should never use).
I'm not really sure why you are trying so hard to prove to me that ZSS has safe options, and can work despite not having oos options. I never said anything to the contrary, and you said yourself that she's already kinda bad. I think a stronger grab would make her a stronger character, and I really don't think a recovery distance nerf would hurt her hardly at all. She'd still be able to cancel all momentum the moment she isn't hitstunned, and could make it back from any hit so long as she didn't try to crouch cancel a powerful move at high%. I just don't think that characters should be able to recover from literally anywhere on or off the screen.
I'm not really sure why you are trying so hard to prove to me that ZSS has safe options, and can work despite not having oos options. I never said anything to the contrary, and you said yourself that she's already kinda bad. I think a stronger grab would make her a stronger character, and I really don't think a recovery distance nerf would hurt her hardly at all. She'd still be able to cancel all momentum the moment she isn't hitstunned, and could make it back from any hit so long as she didn't try to crouch cancel a powerful move at high%. I just don't think that characters should be able to recover from literally anywhere on or off the screen.
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Her grab isn't the worst in the game lmfao you just don't use it right obviously. It's a suuuuuuuuper strong anti approach, she rockets forward during dash grab, and it's great offensively when you're forcing them to shield or tech.
Her having a better grab would not make enough match ups better to NERF her recovery what aren't you getting
Her having a better grab would not make enough match ups better to NERF her recovery what aren't you getting
Try playing a good mk or fox or Falco or peach or Kirby. It's already hell to recover against characters with good lingering hitboxes, nerfing her recovery would make those match ups even harder. A good grab would not solve this.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Her grab is awful, you can't punish much with it. Just because we know how to use it, doesn't mean it's a good grab lol
It's niche af, but still awful.
It's niche af, but still awful.
Foo
Smash Lord
How would that change those matchups AT ALL? If you get hit and don't have your double jump, you are dead anyway. If you get hit and still have your double jump, then nothing changed. The only difference would be failing to recover if you DI'd poorly or tired to crouch cancel a strong move at high%. I HAVE played against good kirbies and metaknights, and they can kill you for free if you can't recover high unless they mess up.
As for her grab, I'm not saying it's a bad move, just that it's worse than all other grabs. I suppose it's impossible to say that's it's worse than standing grabs, so let's just say tether grabs. There is no other grab in the game that takes so long to reach it's max range. Lucas hits full range on frame 14, Link on frame 19, regular samus on frame 20 (and the hitbox actually hangs out longer than ZSS as well), yoshi hits max at 23 on standing grab and 16 on running grab, ivysaur has 15 for dash and 17 for standing, and olimar has the second latest at 25. Guess what ZSS has? Frame 29 for standing grab and 33 for dash grab.
A lot of tethers also have guaranteed kill moves out of throws, but ZSS can barely connect anything out of her throws. Her downthrow can combo into nair or up air at move percents, and you can even get backair if they DI as poorly as possible. Link and toonlink have guaranteed kills out of throw, ivysuar can up-b kill out of downthrow etc.
I actually use her grab a lot, probably too much, but it's a really bad grab.
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You can punish a lot of retreats, a lot of approaches, you can make them afraid of rolling or spot dodging with well spaced aerials and dsmash, at low percent you can outright force 50/50 mixups with the grab or straight up combo in to it.
Niche as ****? No. Just can't go for raw grabs.
I'll show you the many many many times I wouldn't have came back if her recovery length was even the slightest bit shorter when I get off work. Videos help.
As for her grab, I'm not saying it's a bad move, just that it's worse than all other grabs. I suppose it's impossible to say that's it's worse than standing grabs, so let's just say tether grabs. There is no other grab in the game that takes so long to reach it's max range. Lucas hits full range on frame 14, Link on frame 19, regular samus on frame 20 (and the hitbox actually hangs out longer than ZSS as well), yoshi hits max at 23 on standing grab and 16 on running grab, ivysaur has 15 for dash and 17 for standing, and olimar has the second latest at 25. Guess what ZSS has? Frame 29 for standing grab and 33 for dash grab.
I actually use her grab a lot, probably too much, but it's a really bad grab.[/quote]
You're approaching her throws narrow minded. Are you using forward throw or back throw for di mixups? Are you using down b to extend your jump height? Are you doing dthrow to dair to kill moves to do a sort of shine Bair? Are you using the second hitbox of up b off a boostjump to set up a kill? If not, then go back to the lab then tell me she lacks guaranteed kills.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Her throws are good, but her actual grab is awful and you can only depend on it when your reads are on point. When your opponent gets good at moving around the laser and power shielding it, you'll see how much having an ass grab affects her overall game. Also she has to work so much harder to get characters to kill percents 
ZSS sucks, I'm gonna learn someone else and quit her lol
Someone should make a follow up/DI read thread. Even if it isn't too detailed or perfect, we should have something on the boards to help newbies out.
ZSS sucks, I'm gonna learn someone else and quit her lol
Someone should make a follow up/DI read thread. Even if it isn't too detailed or perfect, we should have something on the boards to help newbies out.
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I almost never laser to force grabs. I get my grabs from tech chases, mixups on shield pressure, turnaround grab to beat approaches, dash grab to snipe aerials/landing lag, or combos.
Her laser is largely useless
Her laser is largely useless
Seriously just watch my videos. I get grabs all over the plaxe
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
AZ is caca then.
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Hey guys so after getting bodied by a local ZSS (Player-3) I'm thinking of picking up this character seriously. Do you guys have any tips/suggestions on what is needed to practice on? Thanks.
Foo
Smash Lord
Are you looking for what mechanics to practice, or just how to play her in general?
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Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
watch bleachigo <3
Foo
Smash Lord
Well, the first thing to work on is getting the spacing of her moves down. Nair is safe into shield, but bair isn't totally safe unless you space it. Bair also doesn't kill unless you hit the sweet spot (her foot). Spacing her downsmash makes it a much safer option (it has a lot more range than you'd think) and you must have a feel for side-b's and up-b's ranges to use them effecively.
Second most important thing is mobility. One of Zero suit's biggest assets is her speed coupled with her great wavedash. Learning to have a great dash dance and being able to hit spaced bairs and shffl nairs out of it is really really important.
Thirdly, you have to know how to combo. Her best combo starters are downsmash, downtilt, uptilt, nair, and dair. (dash attack can lead into combos at lower %s, but can also be crouch canceled at those %s).
As for her playstyle, she excels at putting her opponent into a disadvantageous positions and capitalizing off of it. Her laser is slow and cannot be spammed, but it is very useful for forcing your opponent to do something. Generally this will involve jumping to avoid it. It's a really good idea to get your opponent above you as much as possible since her upair and up b are so good at hitting targets above you. Her nair also has great range and is disjointed, so you can beat most characters aerials out.
There's a lot I've left out of course, but it's a start. Hopefully everyone else can fill in the blanks.
Second most important thing is mobility. One of Zero suit's biggest assets is her speed coupled with her great wavedash. Learning to have a great dash dance and being able to hit spaced bairs and shffl nairs out of it is really really important.
Thirdly, you have to know how to combo. Her best combo starters are downsmash, downtilt, uptilt, nair, and dair. (dash attack can lead into combos at lower %s, but can also be crouch canceled at those %s).
As for her playstyle, she excels at putting her opponent into a disadvantageous positions and capitalizing off of it. Her laser is slow and cannot be spammed, but it is very useful for forcing your opponent to do something. Generally this will involve jumping to avoid it. It's a really good idea to get your opponent above you as much as possible since her upair and up b are so good at hitting targets above you. Her nair also has great range and is disjointed, so you can beat most characters aerials out.
There's a lot I've left out of course, but it's a start. Hopefully everyone else can fill in the blanks.
Looooooooooooool
Looooooooooooool
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Not even kidding. Can't wait to outplace you at Apex, beating all your almosts you're so proud of.
pretty much this. Plus good samus players will often time the grapple under the assumption their opponent will try to spot dodge or roll, since it has that backswing grab box.
i do that a lot with zss. i think her grabs actually better than its given credit.
though i'll be honest and say i get bopped for dumb grabs too. i also get those psychic as **** magneto grabs doe.
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Is it just me or do the active frames for the grab linger a bit longer than you'd expect? I've had people move into the grab thinking it's over and get snatched up.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Woooooorrrrlld Staaaaaarrrrrrrr!!!
Those you thought that I thought that you thought grabs.
Hey ZSSszszszs... quick question.
During her stunner (Neutral-B) stun the opponent is stunned for a set amout of time, but if you try to stun them again during that time it work work of course. My question is, when is it that you can stun them again, and at that time are they able to shield? Basically, can you stun them again before they shield?
During her stunner (Neutral-B) stun the opponent is stunned for a set amout of time, but if you try to stun them again during that time it work work of course. My question is, when is it that you can stun them again, and at that time are they able to shield? Basically, can you stun them again before they shield?
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