Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Funbot28]

Source: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...-why-you-shouldnt-be-so-afraid-big-bad-witch/

So this has been a hot topic over the past couple of days with top players like Ally, Zero, Anti, Dabuz, etc all ranting over banning Bayonetta after most of her worst matchups in 1.15 getting nerfed, while she remained mostly untouched (although Witch Time nerf was a bit big), putting her at arguably the best character in the game (RIP Shiek). A lot of people have been contemplating now whether or not she deserves to be banned in tournies due to her easy bake 0-death combos and her ability to shut down most aggressive plays with Witch Time. Some small tournies have actually started banning her as of yesterday:

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What are your thoughts on this? Is she really as bad as lets say Brawl Meta Knight or PM 3.0 Mewtwo?

Update [04/05/2016]: After a majority of ~80%, Bayonetta has been tentatively banned in Spain

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I'm not 100% convinced, but a lot of top players have been bringing up a lot of valid points...

Edit: Since people want data and such on her combos, here is a beautiful video from My Smash Corner explaining them quite profoundly. Its 1.14, but I still feel can be applied here as none of her aerials besides D-Air were changed. Ignore the parts about Witch Time though, as it was slightly nerfed, and Down Air edguarding is a lot harder to pull off if you don't want to die.

Edit 2: An amazing video by @TSM ZeRo covering all the issues of Bayonetta and the reasoning of both sides, heavily recommend you watch this before posting:

*NOTICE*: Please refrain from posting insufficient and uninformative posts, good examples being "get gud" and "just adapt", these arguments really do not help forward the discussion and derails the thread. These posts will be meet with infractions. Please let your posts have informative and educative thoughts. Also remain civil. Thanks in advance.

 

[Theosmeo]

My god this is goofy, she has clearly exploitable weaknesses. Sure she deserves some nerfs here and there but there's a line to be drawn. Cloud is more annoying IMO.

 

[Jcsaenz1]

If Brawl MK wasn't banned, then Bayonetta can't be banned. The balance in Smash 4 is much better than all of the other games.

 

[Amiracle]

I think she has a very fun playstyle so regardless if she's op or not, a lot of players will pick her up. I wish more characters were like her. I didn't agree with the sheik nerfs at all

TBH I gravitate towards characters who have combos and fight instead of spacing or shooting projectiles all day

 

[Funbot28]

If Brawl MK wasn't banned, then Bayonetta can't be banned. The balance in Smash 4 is much better than all of the other games.

To be fair, Brawl MK was banned at one point in many tournaments. I guess he was unbanned due to players adapting over time and just accepting that he runs the meta entirely.

Just realized, but maybe a moderator can move this thread to the Competitive Discussion forum, so we can get a more widespread opinion?

Tagging Shaya

 

[Kurri ★]

If the Smash community can deal with Brawl MK for 8 years, they can deal with Bayonetta, who isn't anywhere near as bad. Plus patches (assuming there's anymore) are bound to fix her up at some point.

 

[C0rvus]

At least give it some time. She hasn't even properly proven to be a problem. She isn't winning majors.

This game even gets patches. Why can't we deal with a little bit of BS? The Brawl community dealt with Meta Knight for years and years. This isn't even that bad. Adapt or quit. Or just wait, cuz she'll probably get nerfed.

 

[Ghidorah14]

This is glorious. I cant stop laughing!

GIT. GOOD. SCRUBS.

 

[Halcy0n]

Bayonetta's been out for what? 2 month's? Give it till the end of the year and we will know all that she can do.

 

[Shaya]

Right.


Well....
I may be willing to move this to the competitive section.
Under the caveat that it doesn't just become a "GIT GUD SCRUBS" rant (well that caveat applies here too, maybe it's better it stays here).
But rather the level headed discussion on the news of regions and prominent names in the scene advocating for it.

If the Smash community can deal with Brawl MK for 8 years, they can deal with Bayonetta, who isn't anywhere near as bad. Plus patches (assuming there's anymore) are bound to fix her up at some point.

You don't really know that.
So you shouldn't say it.

It took years of rule set splicing and dicing to bring MK down a few pegs and was still problematic. It took considerable lengths of time in meta development for MK to be seen as the demon he essentially became.
This character is less than 2 months old, and honestly the "ban Bay" craze started almost instantly (although for not a really valid reason) and you did not see pure MK dominance in Brawl to the extent at which people felt he was ban worthy for close to a year after release.

 

[Metallinatus]

Where is the option "No, she is stupid but people need to git gud"?

 

[Funbot28]

Here is a nice post regarding the argument of precedent of Brawl MK: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4bpnw8/please_stop_using_brawl_as_a_case_for_or_against/

 

[HeavyLobster]

Just play the game, adapt, and see what happens for at least the next 6 months or so. This most recent patch has been out for a week, and Bayo actually did get some nerfs, so there's no reason for hysteria when we don't really know where she even stands as far as the top-level meta goes. No reason to automatically assume that there won't be more patches if needed anyways. There was a far stronger case for banning Sheik as of patch 1.1.4 than there is right now for Bayo, since it did seem as though more patches might not occur since content updates had ended and she had established dominance over the meta since 1.0.6, while Bayo has yet to win a national, much less prove that she's the best in the game and wins all her MUs. There's no need for calls for banning her right now.

 

[sedrf]

No because patches exist

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

While she is very easy to pick up and get good results(example: pink fresh). She also has very exploitable weaknesses. I'd say the community needs to stop whining and adapt.
I'm a SHULK main and I'm saying this

 

[Ghidorah14]

While she is very easy to pick up and get good results(example: pink fresh).

No.

That has more to do with pink fresh just being a good player.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

If you think Bayo is an alright character and we should keep her around, good for you, stand by that. But don't use the "git gud" line. It's childish, it's immature, and it's not helping anybody. Instead of throwing out some juvenile line, how about you help people "git gud". Tell the community how, because until you do that, they will keep complaining.

 

[Otterz]

Tell the community how, because until you do that, they will keep complaining.

What's a shame is that a good amount of the community refuses to listen. They just complain and drown out people trying to tell them how to combat her. Telling people how to DI Bayo's combos, on SB, Discord chats, and in my local scene, has become a daily routine for me.

 

[Das Koopa]

Can we at least wait till' a major like Pound (or better yet, a supermajor like CEO or EVO?) before we start talking about banning characters?

 

[Otterz]

Can we at least wait till' a major like Pound (or better yet, a supermajor like CEO or EVO?) before we start talking about banning characters?

Yes, this shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. It's ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

What's a shame is that a good amount of the community refuses to listen. They just complain and drown out people trying to tell them how to combat her. Telling people how to DI Bayo's combos, on SB, Discord chats, and in my local scene, has become a daily routine for me.

Well you can't save everyone. I think before we cosider banning Bayo, we should really do our best to understand the character. It's vital to make sure people are spreading good and true information on how to deal with the character. Yes, there will be a large portion of people who refuse to listen, but it's the most logical way to go about solving this problem.

 

[G. Stache]

Okay, gonna claim right now that I'm definitely for Bayonetta staying. She's really dumb in quite a few ways, and she encourages boring/lame play. But nor is she proven to be the #1 character. Like, I'm glad we're **** talking about Bayonetta and calling for bans while Cloud is still getting more results and showing more dominance on both sides (theory and performance). I think Cloud is obviously a stronger character, but I definitely wouldn't ban him either. I have yet to see a good argument on why she's so broken and calls for a ban.

That being said, the 'no ban' arguments aren't doing so hot either. People keep bringing up how Brawl MK was 'handled' as if it was some great argument. Please tell me more of this great MK situation and how Brawl's metagame is absolutely thriving right now (yeah, I know that Brawl had other bull crap things besides MK, but if you think that the other problems were close to MK...well...I'm sure others who actually played Brawl would disagree).

Not trying to be the biggest d!ck around, but why is this thread a thing when the people who want bans are really just jumping the gun on the Bayonetta situation? She hasn't been seen to be ban worthy, and the main people asking for bans are just really salty and can be quite ignorant at times (think Ally). Let the actual metagame flourish and develop before asking for nerfs. Bayonetta is not Brawl MK from what we see right now. She's not stifling character selection nearly as hard (In fact, Smash 4 is going through quite the golden age character diversity-wise since patch 1.1.5 dropped), and her results are definitely lacking compared to Brawl MK. Calling Bayonetta ban-worthy is sounds delusional when you think of how she's not even as oppressive as pre patch Sheik. And I hope nobody coming to this thread seriously wants Bayonetta banned.

Again, sorry for coming off as rude (that criticism about the MK argument seems kind of unneeded during my proofread). But I hope you guys listen to my reasoning. Just want to mention that I'll have no problems banning Bayonetta if she becomes such a huge threat. But until then, I want actual evidence to support a banning of a character.

 

[Pancracio17]

I mean, you just have to respect up b and and punish hard each time she lands while using specials. Use shield since throws are useless besides damage until 140 at the ledge.

 

[ToastPerson]

She doesn't need to be banned, but players need to learn how to SDI Witch Thrust and learn how to mix up their DI. Even then Bayonetta has an easily exploitable neutral where if you have a decent projectile game, you can just camp and spam for the whole neutral. Aggressive is not the way to go, but camping = profit

 

[Browny]

If top players actually want her banned (like ally for example) they should all start using her. Guarantee she will get banned when major top8s are all bayo dittos in counterpick wars.

It doesnt even have to be genuine counterpicks, but it would see her banned. Who has the guts to do it? The best part is if they DON'T win with her, it proves their argument is wrong. So really it is in their best interest to all play her.

 

[Ghidorah14]

If you think Bayo is an alright character and we should keep her around, good for you, stand by that. But don't use the "git gud" line. It's childish, it's immature, and it's not helping anybody. Instead of throwing out some juvenile line, how about you help people "git gud". Tell the community how, because until you do that, they will keep complaining.

From now on, I shall endeavor to instead tell people to "please improve upon your lack of skill in a timely manner."

 

[FSLink]

Results and evidence matter. If people want her banned, pick her up, show some of her combos with the opponent doing different DI. Prove she's broken. A lot of people don't even attempt to SDI Witch Twist yet.

Also yeah she can be kinda silly, especially with Witch Time, but that doesn't constitute a ban JUST because a character has strong tools. She has some weaknesses, I'd like people to explore these options before over reacting.

It might be because I come from the Street Fighter/Marvel community, but man nothing in Smash 4 doesn't (at this time) appear to come close to say Akuma in Super Turbo. Obviously you can't do an exact equivalency or anything since the metas are self-contained, but at least the bans came after lots of testing and tourney results.

 

[Metallinatus]

If you think Bayo is an alright character and we should keep her around, good for you, stand by that. But don't use the "git gud" line. It's childish, it's immature, and it's not helping anybody. Instead of throwing out some juvenile line, how about you help people "git gud". Tell the community how, because until you do that, they will keep complaining.

"She is stupid and game breaking" is not any different from any of that, so I guess "git gud" is a very fitting answer.
And you are on freaking Smashboards, if you want information about her, just look around instead of keep complaining while waiting for someone to come and teach you to play against her.
If I am "not helping anybody", don't worry, plenty of people already did that, now go help yourself and look at the boards.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

"She is stupid and game breaking" is not any different from any of that, so I guess "git gud" is a very fitting answer.
And you are on freaking Smashboards, if you want information about her, just look around instead of keep complaining while waiting for someone to come and teach you to play against her.
If I am "not helping anybody", don't worry, plenty of people already did that, now go help yourself and look at the boards.

You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying "hey don't tell me to git gud, that's mean!". What I'm saying is, if you want people to take you seriously and if we want this issue to go anywhere, then both sides are going to have to start being more cooperative. If you tell someone who is anti-Bayo "git gud", I'm 99% sure they aren't gonna say "hey thanks so much! I dunno why I didn't think of that sooner! Take it easy man!". NO! they're gonna think you're a jackass, and rightfully so. CLEARLY people are split over this issue. How about instead of acting like a bunch of 12 year olds, we try and deal with this problem like actual people. Instead of "git gud" you could say, "hey, I know Bayo seems pretty ridiculous, but if she uses side B, go into shield, and grab after the first kick. Also if she doesn't hit you after putting you into Witch Time, try spot-dodging or air-dodging! Also make sure to DI down and away if you get caught in a combo!"

IT'S NOT HARD TO BE A DECENT PERSON.

Bottom line is, if someone is having a hard time and they're getting frustrated, telling them to git gud is only going to make things worse. I don't like using the word "cancerous", but that's exactly how I would describe the "git gud" phrase. So let's shy away from that. We're the Smash Community, let's give ourselves a reputation we're proud to have.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I say git gud because I'm way past done trying to help people who cant help themselves first.

If you need someone to tell you to practice the MU, try playing the character yourself, or just spoonfeed you information thats just gonna go through one ear and out the other, then maybe you (not you, just people in general) need to take a more pro-active approach to these kinds of things.

 

[teluoborg]

This thread is stupid. This topic doesn't need opinions, it needs facts.

Can Bayo's combos truly be DI/SDI'd out, and by whom ?
Which character can break her combos ?
Which characters can have an advantageous matchup over her ? Can these characters hold their own against the rest of the tournament viable cast ?

Think about the work @Trifroze did to explain how to escape ZSS's Dthrow Uair up B combo even though he is a ZSS main himself. That's the kind of thing that is needed to get this debate moving forward.

Refusing to provide hard data will block the discussion in a "git gud" vs "she's broken" loop.


PS : I see a lot of people comparing Bayo to Brawl MK but right now she clearly is more similar to Brawl ICs without the downsides that come from teaming with a CPU.

 

[DC]

>>Sheik wins every major tournament in the last year
>>Bayonetta wins Xanadu locals

...ban Bayonetta tho

 

[KingCapital]

>>Sheik wins every major tournament in the last year
>>Bayonetta wins Xanadu locals

...ban Bayonetta tho

exactly lol. makes no sense honestly

 

[teluoborg]

>>Sheik wins every major tournament in the last year
>>Bayonetta wins Xanadu locals

...ban Bayonetta tho

>>a 60 days old character gets better results than a 18 months old character which was until then considered to be the best in the game.

...she's balanced guys you're all just bad

See it works both ways.

 

[KingCapital]

>>a 60 days old character gets better results than a 18 months old character which was until then considered to be the best in the game.

...she's balanced guys you're all just bad

See it works both ways.

true but i see it as people are just complaining too much. She still hasn't won a major yet while shiek has won many. We just haven't had enough time to truly see her do good enough to be banned. Sure zero to deaths are overwhelming but many characters have those. I think people just need to stop using their time complaining and instead use it for learning the match up. even the pros are subject to this.

 

[teluoborg]

It's true that people whine too much, just as Bayo mains are way too oblivious about their character's strenghts.

But it's like I said in my post above : opinions do not matter and will never bring anything constructive to this debate. What we need is research and facts.

 

[t!MmY]

>>a 60 days old character gets better results than a 18 months old character...

So in 60 days Bayonetta won Apex, EVO, and Genesis 3, and more? No, I don't think so.

I'm actually on your side and think Bayo is 'too good', but hyperbole only makes a weak argument. We need solid facts and rational thinking to progress this topic.

 

[Kalierdarke]

anytime I hear someone say Bayo is too good, or OP, or needs to be banned, this is my response.

 

[Ghidorah14]

It's true that people whine too much, just as Bayo mains are way too oblivious about their character's strenghts.

Just like how non-bayo mains are way to oblivious about the character's WEAKNESSES.

 

[blackghost]

people are seriously complaiing abot a character with no neutral game, awful frame dtaa, telegraphed approaches, and limited kill options outside of combos that all begin with one of three moves?
her results are weaker than shiek, zss, and metaknight. cloud came out and dominated doubles.
i didn't realize the smash 4 community was this ridiculous. you are banning a character that hasn't won ANY tournment of significance? thats just pathetic.