Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[brinboy789]

Only against DK. The others will slide too far for a standing regrab when it becomes stale enough.

no...it works on mario, luigi, samus, bowser, and DK

 

[vato_break]

I say it should be banned.I think i'm pretty lucky though,out of the 4 tournaments i've been too i've only played 6 ddd's and only 2 of them used the infinate

 

[Samuelson]

I say it should be banned.I think i'm pretty lucky though,out of the 4 tournaments i've been too i've only played 6 ddd's and only 2 of them used the infinate

Dang Vato. You sound pretty lucky! Remind me not to hang out with you at tourney's anymore...i don't want to get hit by lightning or anything.

:D

 

[Magus420]

no...it works on mario, luigi, samus, bowser, and DK

...Yes, you can infinite those characters. From what I understand, DK is the only one of those you can maintain the infinite without any grab hits, which was the entire point of discussing grab hits in the first place.

 

[brinboy789]

...Yes, you can infinite those characters. DK is the only one you can maintain the infinite without any grab hits, which was the entire point of discussing grab hits in the first place.

oooo i get it k...

 

[cutter]

ban brawl


everyone wins!

The pitchforks sure are out on banning everything we don't like... :/

 

[HeroMystic]

...Yes, you can infinite those characters. From what I understand, DK is the only one of those you can maintain the infinite without any grab hits, which was the entire point of discussing grab hits in the first place.

That is correct, but not entirely.

Bowser also doesn't need any extra grab hits, but DDD has to take like, one step to continue the "infinite". So it's not really an infinte, but a 0-to-death. Which is just as bad.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

That's bull****. No one should have to change their main because of something as garbage as an extremely easy-to-do infinite. CO18's example of the DK player is a good reason for why it should be banned.

and how many lowtiers don't have a secondary to deal w/ very bad matchups? i shouldn't have to have a secondary for Fox but guess what i have to, thanks to pika and sometimes Zamus.

anyway w/e its at the TO's descretion in the end wether its banned or not anyway.

 

[Magus420]

Yes I know, but as you said it's not really infinite and is a walking CG which is why I didn't include him in there. Had I included him with DK in that sentence someone would have instead stated that it isn't really infinite

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Magus is your sig from some anime, if so which one? its very cute

 

[Magus420]

Magus? I'm Teczero =D

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5333754

Honestly though, I have no idea. It's actually Teczero's sig not mine, lol.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

too much repetiotionish things in that thread, my head hurts. XD

 

[Delvro]

I would like to ban DDD's infinite at the next tournament that I run, since I think it harms the competitive nature of Brawl more than it helps.

My question is: How would I go about banning DDD's infinite on DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser without banning chain grabbing at the same time? I DO NOT want to ban chain-grabbing, because 1) it would be nearly impossible to enforce, and 2) it doesn't sway the matchups to 80-20 like DDD's infinites do.

Having a 2 or 3 or whatever grabs only rule is stupid IMO. It would negatively affect other grabbers besides DDD... That means that Falco players and other characters that simply grab a lot (olimar comes to mind) have to worry about breaking the rules by grabbing too much... while they should be concentrating on the match instead.

I would like some advice on how to ban DDD's infinite grab without harming ANY other characters to a great extent.

 

[bobson]

I would like to ban DDD's infinite at the next tournament that I run, since I think it harms the competitive nature of Brawl more than it helps.

My question is: How would I go about banning DDD's infinite on DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser without banning chain grabbing at the same time? I DO NOT want to ban chain-grabbing, because 1) it would be nearly impossible to enforce, and 2) it doesn't sway the matchups to 80-20 like DDD's infinites do.

Having a 2 or 3 or whatever grabs only rule is stupid IMO. It would negatively affect other grabbers besides DDD... That means that Falco players and other characters that simply grab a lot (olimar comes to mind) have to worry about breaking the rules by grabbing too much... while they should be concentrating on the match instead.

I would like some advice on how to ban DDD's infinite grab without harming ANY other characters to a great extent.

You can either A) Outline the infinites and specifically disallow them while allowing chaingrabbing or B) Make a "no regrabbing without a dash" rule.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

just say DDD standing infinite grab is banned but he can still generally cg. the only other one who does that is pika to Fox, but fox doesn't play that match anyway.

 

[Delvro]

What about DDD versus the 5 infinitable characters? Should it be "no multiple grabs without a dash" against them, too?

I could see it working, I suppose. Thanks for the input!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yes the same thing against them too. thats how umbreons ruleset says it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So...by the logic of the OP Bum should never, ever, place top 10 in any tournament-actuallly, it means he should probably go 2 and out every time. Since this isn't the case and he is consistently top 5ish (or top 3), then I think you should reevaluate just how powerful this is.

Large tournaments in 2007 that didn't ban wobbling:
Cataclysm
Every EVO tournament (2 100+ person events + 270 EVO World)
SMYM 7
Innsomnia (IIRC)
Smash Royale
Melee FCD
Every UCLA monthly (IIRC)
Super Champ Combo
VLS (IIRC)

Tournaments that banned it
OC3
Pound 2 (and Pound 3 in 2008, btw ChuDat, the IC of fame, won Pound 2)

Stats for ALL 5 200+ person tournaments from 2007-looking at the best IC player
ChuDat at Pound 2 got 1st (Wobbling was banned)
ChuDat at OC3 got 3rd (Wobbling was banned)
ChuDat at SCC got 5th (Wobbling was not banned)
ChuDat at FCD got 3rd (Wobbling was not banned)
ChuDat at EVO World got 5th (Wobbling was not baned)

Average placement in banned tournaments: 2nd
Average placement in non-banned tournaments: a little worse than 4th
Thats called a disconnect between theory and reality, afterwhich you have to reevaluate your theory-something most people choose not to do.

In tournaments where wobbling was allowed, never did an Ice Climber place above their usual placement, this is especially true since we can compare non-banned tournaments like SCC/FCD to banned tournaments like Pound 2/OC3, and if you look at that stuff Ice Climbers actually perform BETTER in tournaments where wobbling is banned.

Most of this stuff is largely theory based on low level play, because at the higher echelon of talent players manage to work around infinites (wobbliing or otherwise). Avoiding the infinite with Mario? Pick Brinstar, Norfair, Battlefield and platform camp-or just play really smart on flat stages. People often make the assumption, for some reason, that the infinite will always be 0-death, this is simply not the case, if you are getting grabbed every stock at zero percent, well, you suck then.

A novice D3 is not going to beat an experienced DK because of this (cough, Bum in NY/Boss *mario* in MD/VA). This is the crutch of your argument in the OP since you mention how you can pick D3 and beat a player with 5X the experience as you. You also need to account for the fact that, overall, with the infinite disregarded, D3 is simply a better character than Mario.

This basically has the same problems that the whole MK debate has. Not everyone picks a character that simply gives them the best chance of winning. It makes no sense why ChuDat can't use top tier characters but ***** with Kirby, or why Azen excels with every character but now, solely, uses Lucario. The premise for the argument is that the logical conclusion is that every player in every tournament will pick D3 against these characters-yet that is simply not the case because people play other characters for reasons other than the goal of having the best chance of winning.

Also, if such an infinite existed against MK, I doubt anyone would want it banned. Part of the problem is that these characters are ALREADY subpar. Before saying you would ban the infinite, ask yourself if you would do so if one were ever discovered that worked against MK (because, afterall, if you ban this infinite, and one is later found to work on MK/Snake/etc, it would likewise have to be banned). I think it would be hilarious to see this get banned, then a year from now we find out that Captain Falcon has an infinite on MK and Snake, but we have to ban it because of this precedent.

Speaking of precedents: wobbling already IS the precedent for standing infinites and ALL the data points to it NOT being broken/the sole determinant in who wins in a match up, and wobbling worked against EVERY character.

Also, your math is a little off. You are saying 1/7ths of the cast is effected. I look at it as 5 match ups out of over 1000 possible combinations are affected.

Basically, your are banning something that will take place in less than 1% of all potential match ups. Even if you were right, even if an experienced Mario will never beat an experienced D3, that doesn't mean Mario is obsolete, because not everyone uses D3-there will be plenty of opportunities to excel with Mario in different match ups and that will simply be the nature of the character (this is assuming, somehow, the infinite makes the match ups 10-0 in favor of D3, which I do not believe it does).

For some reason people frown when they feel like they are getting beat by just a single move (OMG CHEAP!-this is pretty much the very definition of where the word is derived from). However, it doesn't matter if you are getting beat by the infinite or the overall sum of the opponents characters moves, you are still getting beaten. If this gets banned, any match up that is roughly as lopsided as this supposedly is should likewise be banned. That means no one is allow to use any characters above mid tier against Capt Falcon.

 

[Sliq]

So...by the logic of the OP Bum should never, ever, place top 10 in any tournament-actuallly, it means he should probably go 2 and out every time. Since this isn't the case and he is consistently top 5ish (or top 3), then I think you should reevaluate just how powerful this is.

Large tournaments in 2007 that didn't ban wobbling:
Cataclysm
Every EVO tournament (2 100+ person events + 270 EVO World)
SMYM 7
Innsomnia (IIRC)
Smash Royale
Melee FCD
Every UCLA monthly (IIRC)
Super Champ Combo
VLS (IIRC)

Tournaments that banned it
OC3
Pound 2 (and Pound 3 in 2008, btw ChuDat, the IC of fame, won Pound 2)

In tournaments where wobbling was allowed, never did an Ice Climber place above their usual placement, this is especially true since we can compare non-banned tournaments like SCC/FCD to banned tournaments like Pound 2/OC3, and if you look at that stuff Ice Climbers actually perform BETTER in tournaments where wobbling is banned.

Most of this stuff is largely theory based on low level play, because at the higher echelon of talent players manage to work around infinites (wobbliing or otherwise). Avoiding the infinite with Mario? Pick Brinstar, Norfair, Battlefield and platform camp-or just play really smart on flat stages. People often make the assumption, for some reason, that the infinite will always be 0-death, this is simply not the case, if you are getting grabbed every stock at zero percent, well, you suck then.

A novice D3 is not going to beat an experienced DK because of this (cough, Bum in NY/Boss *mario* in MD/VA). This is the crutch of your argument in the OP since you mention how you can pick D3 and beat a player with 5X the experience as you. You also need to account for the fact that, overall, with the infinite disregarded, D3 is simply a better character than Mario.

This basically has the same problems that the whole MK debate has. Not everyone picks a character that simply gives them the best chance of winning. It makes no sense why ChuDat can't use top tier characters but ***** with Kirby, or why Azen excels with every character by now, solely, uses Lucario. The premise for the argument is that the logical conclusion is that every player in every tournament will pick D3 against these characters-yet that is simply not the case because people play other characters for reasons other than the goal of having the best chance of winning.

Also, if such an infinite existed against MK, I doubt anyone would want it banned. Part of the problem is that these characters are ALREADY subpar. Before saying you would ban the infinite, ask yourself if you would do so if one were ever discovered that worked against MK (because, afterall, if you ban this infinite, and one is later found to work on MK/Snake/etc, it would likewise have to be banned). I think it would be hilarious to see this get banned, then a year from now we find out that Captain Falcon has an infinite on MK and Snake, but we have to ban it because of this precedent.

Speaking of precedents: wobbling already IS the precedent for standing infinites and ALL the data points to it NOT being broken/the sole determinant in who wins in a match up, and wobbling worked against EVERY character.

Also, your math is a little off. You are saying 1/7ths of the cast is effected. I look at it as 5 match ups out of over 1000 possible combinations are affected.

Basically, your are banning something that will take place in less than 1% of all potential match ups. Even if you were right, even if an experienced Mario will never beat an experienced D3, that doesn't mean Mario is obsolete, because not everyone uses D3-there will be plenty of opportunities to excel with Mario in different match ups and that will simply be the nature of the character (this is assuming, somehow, the infinite makes the match ups 10-0 in favor of D3, which I do not believe it does).

Melee =/= Brawl

You can't compare wobbling to the D3 infinite because the games are entirely different. In Melee you had the ability to l-cancel, which meant that if you spaced even the slightest bit and l canceled, almost every aerial was safe against the Ice Climbers.

No l-canceling in Brawl.

Furthermore, the Ice Climbers can be broken up, and Nana killed, preventing the infinite. There is only 1 D3, and he happens to have one of the longest grab ranges in the game.

Seriously, I don't play D3 and learned to infinite in 15 minutes. You don't even have to try vs. Bowser. Just spam grab till you land it and you win a stock.

Furthermore, about Bum's results, you assume that 1.) he fought D3's and won (or that no one picked D3 despite the advantage because said advantage does not acutally exist in the eyes of the players that fought him), and 2.) that Bum ONLY plays DK and doesn't have a back up character for D3.

I'm not stupid. I have back up characters for D3 because that match is ********. I would ruin EVERY D3 with Bowser if not for the infinite. But now I have to switch to other characters that are less than ideal characters in case the guy I'm playing is a cool guy.

Regardless, we can all agree in saying that the infinite is infinitely ********, and Nintendo needs to learn2test their **** games.

This probably won't ever be banned because no one gives 2 ****s about any of the characters beng infinited, and also because the ban would be hard to enforce.

I still think it is pretty silly that the only characters I fear in tournament are D3 and the Ice Climbers, both for the same reason (but one being way less ********).

Also, I should technically never place in the top 10 either with Bowser, but I do. Just because I'm awesome doesn't mean the infinite isn't ********.

 

[HeroMystic]

Erm, exactly why is the infinite hard to enforce?

DDD just has to dash before grabbing.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I agree that it is "********", I just don't think it should be banned, and you actually made my case with this:

Furthermore, about Bum's results, you assume that 1.) he fought D3's and won (or that no one picked D3 despite the advantage because said advantage does not acutally exist in the eyes of the players that fought him), and 2.) that Bum ONLY plays DK and doesn't have a back up character for D3.

This was precisely my point. The existence of the infinite does not kill these characters because people choose to play characters for reasons separate from winning (fan boys, play style, etc). This is why Mario is still viable. Also, as pointed out, you can pick up a secondary-why is it any different that you have to do it in response to the infinite as opposed to just in response to having a ****ty match up? Also, to my knowledge, Bum does not use a secondary (99% positive on this).

Finally, wobbling IS a great comparison. True, Melee is different than Brawl, the concept is roughly the same and the things people are saying are EXACTLY the same. When wobbling first hit the fan, everyone was telling doomsday scenarios of how top 3 would be all IC's and piss poor IC's would beat superior players simply because of the tactic. The instances of this occurring are few and far between-and as I pointed out the results of banning the infinite were actually that the IC's did better, not worse.

Yea, I think it is dumb, but I also think it is dumb to ban something that only effects less than 1% of all potential match ups in the game.

 

[Sliq]

This was precisely my point. The existence of the infinite does not kill these characters because people choose to play characters for reasons separate from winning (fan boys, play style, etc).

Here you are assuming that we play the characters we do, but not for the purposes of winning, which is half true, I guess. Obviously the best choice would be to pick MK or Snake if winning was everything, if it weren't for the fact that certain players are better with worse characters than they are with top tiers due to play style preferences, not to mention the novelty factor of catching your opponent off guard by playing an unorthodox character or playstyle.

Also, I never claimed it killed these characters, I merely claimed that it makes the matchup practically unwinnable, which I personally find unacceptable. I'm fine with the CG, regardless of how stupid I think it is, but an infinite that is this easy to do is silly.

Also, I find it very hypocritical that I'm being told to deal with the infinite, while the SBR is banning stages with walls so the other characters can't be infinited, despite the fact that my character get's infinited regardless of the presence of walls. Anything that you would say to me about my character choice can be applied to all the other characters that get wall infinited. Double standard extraordinair.

This is why Mario is still viable. Also, as pointed out, you can pick up a secondary-why is it any different that you have to do it in response to the infinite as opposed to just in response to having a ****ty match up? Also, to my knowledge, Bum does not use a secondary (99% positive on this).

I don't have a problem with a ****ty matchup, because the matchup is still winnable.

Finally, wobbling IS a great comparison. True, Melee is different than Brawl, the concept is roughly the same and the things people are saying are EXACTLY the same. When wobbling first hit the fan, everyone was telling doomsday scenarios of how top 3 would be all IC's and piss poor IC's would beat superior players simply because of the tactic. The instances of this occurring are few and far between-and as I pointed out the results of banning the infinite were actually that the IC's did better, not worse.

More can be done to the IC's to prevent the infinite than can be done to D3. Things such as killing Nana, or keeping the two constantly seperated. They are almost the same thing, but the lack of options in Brawl in comparison to Melee makes it easier to initiate the infinite. This applies to the IC's of both games.

If the IC's did better without the infinite, then no one loses with it being banned. IC players place higher, and no one feels like they want to embed a monkey wrench in the skull of their adversary. Everybody wins!

Yea, I think it is dumb, but I also think it is dumb to ban something that only effects less than 1% of all potential match ups in the game.

Oh yeah? Wel I think you're a big dumbhead.

Checkmate.

 

[CO18]

Infinites are banned in New York and Md/Va Area AlphaZealot.

 

[Ref]

Yes NY bans this at the tourneys like 80% of the time. And bum is beastly with almost all characters... Apparently he is extremely good with jiggly puff I would ask Snakeee on this one though... But yeah he is also good with ganondorf... It is also banned in several places in the Atlantic North.

Bum will probably never go DK against King Dedede if knew king Dedede was there and this was legal. I don't believe Bum will set himself up for failure like that, even if he could pull it off, he wouldn't do it unless forced to. I haven't heard of Bum ever doing that.

And Sliq truly is amazing.

Bum also seems to go Captain falcon in tourneys... Randomly...

 

[cutter]

I really hope a slippery slope doesn't start...

"BAN MK!!"
"BAN LEDGECAMPING!!!"
"BAN INFINITES!!!!!!"

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I really hope a slippery slope doesn't start...

"BAN MK!!"
"BAN LEDGECAMPING!!!"
"BAN INFINITES!!!!!!"

don't you see, its already begun...........
XD

 

[XienZo]

I really hope a slippery slope doesn't start...

"BAN MK!!"
"BAN LEDGECAMPING!!!"
"BAN INFINITES!!!!!!"

None of those will really be missed though...

 

[HeroMystic]

Unless you're MK or ROB.

 

[XxBlackxX]

don't you see, its already begun...........
XD

yup

10truths

 

[Sliq]

I don't want MK banned. Hell, I don't really want the infinite banned. I mean, I do, but when it isn't I won't really care. I'm just angry at how ******** Nintendo is.

Also, the infinites are more ban worthy than MK.

 

[Mocha19]

Ehh.. Don't blame Nintendo for this stuff. They didn't think that this would happen when they put the game out. If anything they just put the game out to make us happy. To them, it's a party game. And don't say it isn't, because it is. I don't think they even thought it would get this far in the competitive scene either. They were just making a game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

at least Bowser isn't like JP having its airgame practically ripped from it

 

[XxBlackxX]

Ehh.. Don't blame Nintendo for this stuff. They didn't think that this would happen when they put the game out. If anything they just put the game out to make us happy. To them, it's a party game. And don't say it isn't, because it is. I don't think they even thought it would get this far in the competitive scene either. They were just making a game.

Eh..not quite true. This wasn't the first SSB they made, so they should have known (at least after Melee) that Brawl was gonna be competitive even though they didn't want it to be.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

apparently nintendo LOLs at competetive players. thats why he inserts things like this and makes some characters worse. in fact its all Sakurais fault lol

 

[darkspatan117]

Brawl is Shallow Nintendo cleary play favorite which is lame for competitive Player.

 

[Delvro]

It would be difficult to enforce because there is only one of me (and a few helpers) running the tournament, while there are 75+ competitors, many of them playing matches at the same time, and I'm busy calling out the matches and will likely miss someone breaking the rules until it is too late. And the worst part is, the victims never think to complain to me about it even though I tell them again and again that they can.

Also, there are a few errors that I need to address...
There may be 36^2 (37^2) TOTAL match-ups in brawl... however, this is not the issue. The issue is that, from the perspective of a person who plays these five characters, their chances of winning a tournament that has a DDD in it are just about zero (unless he gets lucky seeding). There are 5 "groups" of 36/37 match-ups, and one of those in each of these five groups are stupidly lopsided (I'm not talking 70/30 lopsided, either)

DDD's infinite is not a 0-death on all of these characters, but it IS a 40%-death on all of them, at least, every time. The infinite is NOT hard to do, and it takes almost no skill to get them to whatever % you want. I'm extremely sick of the logic "good players learn to get around it"... my counter to that is "good DDD's will learn to get one in", ESPECIALLY considering that it is one of the best grabs in the game!

The argument that if an infinite grab is found on MK, than nobody would want to ban it, is stupid. Ban it!! Infinite grabs are not what makes this game fun, or competitive. It all goes back to what we want to see in competitive Brawl, and I do not want to see the game degenerate into "who can land the grab first", even if it is MK. To me, it is not a good measure of player skill... anything so stupidly simple (press the z button over and over with buffered timing), yet absolutely broken (better than a warlock punch!) should be banned, no questions asked.

The fact that DDD's infinite creates stupidly lopsided match-ups is important, but it is not~ as important as the fact that it degenerates the level of depth that exists in the game... and to be honest, we need every ounce of depth that we can get. Simple infinite grab combos are not where it's at.

 

[bobson]

It would be difficult to enforce because there is only one of me (and a few helpers) running the tournament, while there are 75+ competitors, many of them playing matches at the same time, and I'm busy calling out the matches and will likely miss someone breaking the rules until it is too late. And the worst part is, the victims never think to complain to me about it even though I tell them again and again that they can.

That's true of any rule you'll try to enforce. If you can effectively ban, say, Metaknight's IDC, you can ban Dedede's infinites without much more trouble.

 

[Lil Hero]

If you want to ban something ban the ice climbers Ice lock. Thats the most broken thing ive come across in brawl.

 

[cutter]

If you want to ban something ban the ice climbers Ice lock. Thats the most broken thing ive come across in brawl.

It's only an infinite if you get pinned to wall. And even if you get block locked the ice blocks' damage decays into pitiful amounts; sometimes doing no damage at all to you because they get so stale.

 

[the5souls]

Ok. Let us compare, shall we!
(I am not going to be biased towards one character. I'm going to use my currnet knowledge.)




King Dedede
How to Infinite Grab(Only one grab variation)
Grab, press down, immediately dash towards opponent, grab, and so on...

Learning Difficulty- (* )

If Dedede magages to gain even just ONE grab...
How this can affect the match
[What the Dedede player has to "pay"]
-Needs to know how to grab and press down on control stick
-Needs to know how to end the grab chain with what to deal out max damage possible
-Needs an okay feel of the grab timing

Cost of "payment"- (** )

[What the Dedede player is "rewarded"]
-Gives the oppenent an automatic damage handicap/disadvantage
-Makes it easier to eliminate a stock from the other player

Reward for "payment"- (**** )





Ice Climbers
How to Infinite Grab (Multiple grab variations)
Grab with one of the Ice Climbers, decide to either Down or Back throw, follow up with another grab with the other Ice Climber or follow up with an attack that will allow you to continue the Infinite Grab

Learning Difficulty- (**** )

If Ice Climbers manages to gain even just ONE grab...
How this can affect the match
[What Ice Climbers have to "pay"]
-Needs large amounts of practice to sucessfully inifinite grab the opponent
-Needs a great amount of feel for the timing of the grabs/attacks
-Needs to protect secondary Ice Climber at ALL TIMES
-Needs to know the damage range for certain grabs/attacks

Cost of "payment"- (*****)

[What the Ice Climber is "rewarded"]
-If done flawlessly, the Ice Climber can completely erase an entire stock from the opponent
-Even done with some flaws, the many grab variations could deal out large amounts of damage, even to the point of "death damage"

Reward of "payment"- (*****)




"Just don't get grabbed."

-Never being grabbed in a match, even for just once, is very unlikely. If it does occur, it may be because the opponent doesn't grab at all, is bad at the grab timing, or that you, the player, is having an extremely lucky day. You may be able to avoid grabs for a match or two, but it is very, very unlikely that you'll be "ungrabbable" consistantly. This holds true for even the best Smash players among us.


"Mind as well ban ledgehogging (insert other moves here)!"

-Well, practically everyone in the Brawl cast has the ability to ledgehog, where as DDD and Ice Climbers are character specific and ONLY occur if the chracter is chosen, and the player has knowledge of the grabs.


Side Comments
I believe King Dedede's chain grab should be banned, or at least limited to 2-3 down throws during any chain grab that occurs. This only affects DDD's grab game. The rest of it stays intact. There would be absolutely no point in telling the DDD player to change his main just because of 1 move out of about 15 possible moves. The difficulty of execution is not that much, and the benefits compared to the difficulty is too great, even if the benefit is just piling on damage towards the other player. Every percent of damage counts when it comes to avoiding a loss of stock.


For Ice Climbers' grab... I'm not sure about that being banned. It takes lots and lots of practice to fully master it and squeeze out every possible death combo there is with perfection. And for all that practice the player puts in just for that one grab,(even though the player knows that there are many liabilites, such as having to constantly protect his secondary Ice Climber, knowing when to time things under pressure, preparing to fight with just one Ice Climber because you can't have both of them forever....) the Ice Climber player can reap the benefits from all the hard work and practice that has been put in. The amount of difficulty to even just learn the grabs will, in the end, equal your rewards in the future.



And that's my take on the grab!