Battle of the Overworld and Underworld : Pit/Dark Pit Match Up Discussion (Week 2 :R.O.B)

[LancerStaff]

Matchup Ratios

[70/30] [65/35] [60/40] [55/45] [50/50] [45/50] [40/60] [35/65] [30/70]

​

45/50

Slight disadvantage. However, you still have a chance to win, depending on what stage, player, and playstyle that player may have.
50/50

Very even matchup. The matchup can go either way, depending on the player.​

55/45

No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools, or one character can take advantage from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.​

60/40

One character has clearly better tools in the matchup. However, if you can outplay your opponent by zoning them out, mind games, using the best options, and knowing what the other character is about, you may win.​

65/35

One character has less limitations as opposed to the amount of limitations the other character can perform. Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not hopeless by any means, but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.​

70/30

Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended - or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing incredibly well.​

Anything past 70-30 is considered a pretty much unwinnable matchup like Little Mac vs Diddy Kong.

How are we going to decide what matchups to discuss?

Well, we can do it where if theres a specific character you have trouble dealing with, whether your fighting someone online, or if you went to an offline tournament and you got knocked out by that character, we will discuss it. Each member that mains Dark Pit/Pit will decide what character specifically has given them trouble, and we will talk about it from there.

If there is a matchup you would like to discuss, please reply below and I will put your name next to the character, so we will remember to talk about that character for next time.

How long should these discussions last?

We should talk about one character per week. Being that there are 52 characters in the game, we can get a full (52 weeks) year of talking about every single character.

Who will be part of the discussion?

Anyone that mains Dark Pit/Pit and has went through the same experiences that player just went through. Invite some of the players from the other boards to talk about the matchup and see what they have to say.

Why are we doing this?

To help veterans as well as newer players to get familiar of how the matchups should go. Not only that, it gives you a better idea of how much potential Dark Pit/Pit can do against specific characters, as well as knowing what the other characters are capable of.

Specifically, what do we talk about in these matchups?

Knowing when to approach, what moves to look out for, how to edgeguard, how to land, what moves are useful, kill percentage, which moves outprioritize which, etc.

 

[LancerStaff]

Table of Contents:
Week #1

Discussion begins at post #11
Matchup Ratio: 40:60 Luigis favor​

Week #2

Discussion begins at post #23
Matchup Ratio:​

 

[LancerStaff]

BEGIN!

 

[notyourparadigm]

Are we going to be deciding with votes? If so, I'd love to have some discussions about Villager and Dedede.

Also, I don't know how the new format is going to work (and of course it isn't just my opinion that matters) but I love MU threads that have links to separate character MU threads, like the Shulk and Link forums. It's easier to go back and review / add to previous discussions, it feels much more organized, and it doesn't require OP to constantly update the discussions included under spoilers. Just my two cents, though! Looking forward to the new format.

And, uh, apologies if I replied prematurely.

 

[LancerStaff]

Nah, you're fine. Just twiddling my thumbs awkwardly because I'm new at this.

Well, we have an invite to Pit vs. Mario discussion, so why don't we start there?

 

[Gidy]

For some reason I feel like Mario vs. Pit is even. Both are and have combos, offstage gimp options, excellent in neutral, good spacing projectiles, and spacing options. Maybe Mario wins by a little bit since has better mobility, but only by a tiny bit.

 

[Otsillac]

I don't know much about Pit/Mario, but I've heard a lot of people say it's Pit's favor, which makes sense to me. I don't feel like I've had that much trouble with Marios I've fought. I feel like we can wall him out with our disjoints and projectile, and we can punish alot of Mario's stuff. Again, this isn't an MU I know much about. Maybe we can get some Mario mains to weigh in?

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey guys, sorry for leaving right after taking over. Got myself sick and things got busy right after. Still kinda busy in general but I can start things up properly soon, so get ready.

 

[Spirst]

This thread is even more grassroots than our own one.

Anyway, I'm guessing this is where I place this. The Mewtwo boards will be discussing the Pits as part of this week's matchup discussion. As I've said in the other boards I've invited, I'm well aware that the character is young and the potential isn't realized as of yet. Nevertheless, any input would be helpful and very much appreciated.

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

 

[BJN39]

Hello Pit players!

The Zelda boards have started discussion on the Pit and Dark Pit MUs, and we'd love it if we could get some input from y'all here on it!

Click Zelda to te--

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

Huh...Like I do!

But yeah, click the Zelda icon to be taken directly to our MU thread.

 

[CHOMPY]

Since no one seems to have a discussion on what character we are going to discuss. I'll start!

Let the Luigi discussion begin!

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey, uh, sorry. Haven't had a ton of time lately to keep an eye on things. But I actually wanted to talk to you guys about an idea I have. Not right now since I'm practically out the door, so probably tomorrow.

Heh, hope you guys like it. I promise to take the topic a little more seriously too.

 

[LancerStaff]

> Says I'll do something tomorrow and take the topic seriously
> Internet goes out for half a day
Like, my luck gets so bad it hurts...

Anyway, what I actually wanted to do was write out what I think about every single matchup in the game and put it here. I don't think of myself as the best or most experienced player, but I have plenty of time to write. Here's how I'd write up VS. Luigi, for example:

Spoiler: Luigi

Preferred Angel: = (Meaning they're basically equal, and assuming customs are on. I'd add >>> to rate the two compared to each other.)

Customs usefulness rating: Palutena Bow 5/5 Guiding Bow 5/5 Piercing Bow 3/5 Guardian Orbitars 5/5 Amplifing Orbitars 3/5 Impact Orbitars 4/5 (Useless customs are just left out, assume 0 or 1/5.)

Stage notes: The angels are much more mobile then Luigi but he's good with surprise aerials, so pick large stages and stages with few, but not zero, platforms. (Due to varying stage legality, the stage strike system, and the two versions not sharing stages, a simple "pick WHZ" just wouldn't work out.)

General Strategy: Luigi prefers to stay in neutral at mid-range, spamming fireballs all day. Fireballs which stop arrows and grounded approaches cold. Shooting over his fireballs with arrows can be effective, but at mid-range it's risky. Luigi can usually react to a Piercing Bow shot if he's just camping, but if he decides to try and follow-up the fireball he'll more then likely get a face-full of arrow. Reflecting fireballs is useless.

Should we close in, we have his absurd grab game to deal with. Not much we can do about that... But once we get a hit in Luigi has to deal with our range beating out his. Stay on his behind and don't let up when you get your chance. But be cautious with your combos, as Luigi's Nair is one of the fastest aerials, if not the fastest, in the game and can break out of otherwise unstoppable combos.

Late in stocks things slow down quite a bit. Luigi's earlier KO moves aren't usually very safe, and yours are even less so. Don't go throwing out smashes or you'll have to deal with the Fire Jump Punch. As both of your damage climbs, things start going more your way. Pit just has a ton of late KO moves, while Luigi has to mostly stick with his smashes.

Recovery can be difficult for the angels with customs on. Luigi can hover in place with his Rising Cyclone to edgeguard, and if we decide to stall out more then he can keep falling and then fly back up with the cyclone and still get us. This isn't Villager, but you still have to be very careful.

TL,DR: Sneak in while avoiding fireballs and grabs and don't let up when you do, be patient and let the %s rise for KOs.

Personal Matchup Experience: 4/5 (This is how experienced I think I am with the matchup. A 5 is a perfect understanding, a 4 means I mostly understand how things will go, a 3 is pretty much gut instinct with a little experience, 2 is probably a ways off, and I probably shouldn't be writing if it's a 1.)

Matchup Rating: Could go either way. (I'll use the standard "Almost Unwinnable" "Slight Advantage" ratings most of the time, but when there's still some grey areas I won't give out a definite "Neutral.")

So, what do you guys think? Should I make a ton of these since I have the time, should I wait for when it's time to discuss that character, or is it just rubbish?

 

[Riptide1Slash3]

Hmmmm. Pit/Dark Pit vs Luigi match up eh? Interesting.

Well as a Pit/Pittoo Main I would like to say that the match up is about: 70-30 or 60-40. Here are my reasons.

Luigi's Fireballs are not a good move to use against Pit/Dark Pit. Pit can just shoot an arrow to cancel them or even use Down B to reflect them. Since most Luigi's usually use 2-3 fireballs then charge in, reflecting them can really build up a bit of damage and then instead of them going for the grab, Pit/Dark Pit can grab instead and then get some combos going (as the Luigi is finally trying to get back into the game from Fireballs being reflected).

When a Luigi is trying to recover, Pit can use his arrows to stall Luigi and possibly gimp him, while Dark Pit can really try to gimp by Down Bing as Luigi gets near the edge. I have gimped Luigi's before by doing this. Timing is crucial though.

Air attacks. Pit/Dark Pit have more range (In fact Pit has more range in almost all of his attacks except for Bair and Dair) but come out a bit slower so Luigi has priority while Pit/Dark Pit has range and killing power.

Now Pit/Dark Pit can get easily comboed by Luigi if grabbed. If you are seeing a Dash attack or grab go for a short hop to Nair. Nair cancels both grab and dash attack while causing damage. You can also Spot Dodge to Down Smash/Reverse Side Smash to punish a miss grab.

Out of all my time, While I play Pit/Dark Pit against a Luigi, I have to be careful of grab and well timed air attacks. Other than that, I am fairly confident in winning.

 

[Foul Play]

Pit doesn't really fare well in the luigi/pit MU

Luigi has a fast projectile that he can easily use to approach pit. Pit can't use his orbitars because of the insane amount of ending lag, and luigi can just grab him out of it.

Pit also has a very linear recovery, that luigi won't have too hard of a time dealing with.

Pits stronger attacks are a bit more laggy than luigis
Luigi also has that ridiculous frame 3 Nair to escape pits aerial combos.

Pit has equal opportunities to gimp luigi, and a much more versatile projectile, also because of luigis floatiness, pit has an easier time juggling him.

In my opinion p, it probably 55:45 luigi.

 

[Heracr055]

Hello, I am new to the forums and really look forward to participating in the Dark Pit forums (as he is my main). I've been playing him for about 3 months and have a pretty good idea of his MUs.

Luigi is a difficult matchup. His approach is pretty good because his fireballs can force jabs, shielding or Orbitars (which you really shouldn't use to reflect his fireballs). This gives him the opportunity to grab you, which can lead to down throw and fast aerial shenanigans. Going in the air to avoid fireballs is dangerous because of Luigi's aerial game, so be careful if you do this. If Luigi is creeping in while throwing fireballs, looking for that grab, I'll typically jab and keep on jabbing so he can't grab me. This is the only time I use infinite jab, and it works most of the time, but it's probably not the best defense.
His UpSmash has ridiculous range thanks to his lack of traction when he runs while he UpSmashes. His tornado is very powerful as well. Lastly, his jabs and aerials come out really fast, which make him a threat on the ground and in the air.
What I recommend is keeping him at bay with arrows, spacing him with ftilt and dtilt, and gimping him with dair or fair, because with this tornado and side B Luigi can live for a long time if he isn't launched near the edge of the screen or gimped.
I'd say 40:60 favoring Luigi overall. I will review my replays later to see if I have anything to add or correct. I hope this is the type of discussion that helps!

 

[Makorel]

Pit also has a very linear recovery, that luigi won't have too hard of a time dealing with.

I'm singling out this comment because it bothers me. In my experience Pit's recovery isn't linear at all. Between his extra jumps, Side B and the sheer range of Up B, Pit has a diverse range of tools to mix up his recovery and come back to the stage unharmed 9 times out of 10. Pit can recover high medium or low as he pleases and can stall until the right moment and come in quick with Up B.

In regards to the Luigi match up (and most match ups now that I think about it) I try to keep myself spaced outside of his range and nail him when he over exerts himself trying to get me. Luigi's fireballs only go so far and with all the time Pit can spend in the air he can out maneuver Luigi and the fireballs pretty easily, although Pit still needs to be wary of a Luigi Cyclone if he's in punishment range.

A defensive Luigi that doesn't care to approach is a harder nut to crack. I would say at that point the game is about finding an opening in Luigi's defense and popping him into the air to get a string going. Pit's air stalling, superior ground speed, good grab and large disjoints can get him in but Luigi's frame data and fireballs are definitely something to be wary of so it can go either way then, with Luigi's superior combo game tipping it in his favor I think.

I don't think Pit should have too much trouble juggling or edge guarding Luigi for damage. Disjoints override hurtboxes if spaced well, so even if Luigi has a lot of ways to recover they're not foolproof against Pit.

 

[Chaleb]

This is a close match-up, I would it's about 55:45 Luigi.

I put Luigi a little bit ahead because, for most of the game Pit has to play Luigi's game very much. Pit's advantage is that he has a sword and can edge guard Luigi pretty well, due to his less than average recovery. Luigi's down throw is pure cancer but we also have a down throw combo that does 20%. Fireballs are the real annoyance, since they cover so much space in the neutral. Pit just has to play around that; Arrows can do a little bit at a distance but do have a lot of cool down so you cannot spam them. This is a difficult match-up on both sides because both have to play super careful or else they'll end up with a ton of damage.

 

[Otsillac]

Luigi can be tough. Pit has to be really cautious to avoid fireballs or just a straight up, and we all know how disaturous those can be. Pit has to play Luigi's game. On on the other hand, Pit can utilize his better mobility and strong edgeguarding to get in to advantage. Pit can also outrange him if he can safely get in. Due to the danger of approaching, I feel like it's 55/45 or 60/40, Luigi's favor.

 

[AmericanSaikyo]

In regards to the Luigi match up (and most match ups now that I think about it) I try to keep myself spaced outside of his range and nail him when he over exerts himself trying to get me. Luigi's fireballs only go so far and with all the time Pit can spend in the air he can out maneuver Luigi and the fireballs pretty easily, although Pit still needs to be wary of a Luigi Cyclone if he's in punishment range.

This. You have a solid range advantage against Luigi and with good spacing you can keep out of his effective combo zone when you take to the air. Cyclone can be a bit of a bother but with a good read you can make him pay dearly for it. I find playing a slow grinding pace is what will edge many Luigi's out. Frustrate them into committing risky moves then punish away. Despite all that I'll still only give Pit a [55/45] over Luigi because it takes one mistake and you'll find yourself in a potentially fatal chain. You really have to be on point with this match up but a well played Pit has the edge.

 

[FiXalaS]

I have experience with Luigi outside customs, and I would say it's in luigi's favor, but it isn't the worst.

I'd say 60:40 Luigi.

Most important: with no safe landing options you have to be very careful not to land with an aerial because most of the time Luigi could be waiting for you to land with one and he'd be loving to perfect shield it then grab, for serious damage.

on ground, it can also get scary with his fireballs, the best thing you can do here is wait! either for the moment he slacks off (he'll get impatient and move a bit or doesn't throw fireballs in a rapid way) and then you dash attack (best Pit Punish here) or grab if he shields a lot. if he kept fireball..ing, perfect shield, and if he threw another, perfect shield again! if he stops to approach Jab immediately!! after a full jab you can follow up with a dashing USmash mid-low to mid %.

Never try and hit the fireballs with a dash attack because you'd freeze for moments and he gonna grab you then, oh and Never upperdash them or Oribitar them either, you'll get grabbed.

arrows are useless here, unless you wanna gimp him, but good luigis will recover with their tornado, which is immune to arrows.

- Grab to up air or Dair into Dair into whatever read you can get, are the only combos I've found so far that works with luigi, otherwise this character only likes combos for himself, it's hard to get a grab though so I wouldn't recommend this alot, don't be keen on getting combos on luigi.

Best moves to use:

- 3 hit jab: to stop his grab approach.

- Ftilt: If he rushes to you to trick/read you into a grab (which some of them really do, without fireballs) also good if's gonna recover from ledge or with a tornado into stage, and you surprise them with the range :3 this could also net you a kill if pit

- Dash attack: oh this amazing move, just don't throw it casually because it has endlag, but this beautiful move gets you lots of easy damage when others make mistakes, this move can work everytime, after empty laands this moves comes unexpectdly fast so you can catch them, but otherwise just punish with it, best punish against top tiers as well, because they barely have lag.

- Up Smash: use it after jab, or when he floats around waiting you to drop shield or something so he can bair or nair you.

- Down Smash & Down Tilt: fast and great moves, gets your body down close to ground from attacks as well, just don't Dsmash in front of his face hoping it'd hit because he can perfect shield the first hit and the react.

- Bair: works really well with ledge trumps here, or if both are in the air you can catch him.

- FSmash is slow, but you can catch him off guard when he tries to recover above ground with tornado, or Pivot FSmash when throws a single fireball and rushes to grab.

what not to do:

- Don't do the Dthrow to Usmash combo, only works 0% vs 0% and doesn't net you much.

- Don't attack his fireballs with anything because they freeze pit and makes your heart freeze as well.

- Don't land with Bair to space out.

- Actually, never land with moves, land in a safe position into shield or run fast.

- Never try to hit through his Up Smash, not worth it.

- Only Upperdash his smash attacks when he tries to kill you, he had probably forgotten about it and you got rage as a bonus here

- Forget that up-tilt exists, forget Orbitars, forget multi hit moves unless as follow ups, and forget mid range arrows.

If you held your ground, and concentrated really well, you can destroy luigi, you just have to be so fast and always be in a safe position, pit's range is amazing and is the saving grace of this matchup... the range, and the dash attack (otherwise it'd be 70:30)

 

[GwJ]

Hello, the ROB board is going over the Pit/Dark Pit matchup right now. Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-25-pit-dark-pit.405656/

 

[CHOMPY]

Seeing as though the Luigi discussion has died out. I think we are all in a agreement that the Luigi matchup is 40:60 in Luigis favor.

Movig onto another character

Week 2: Rob

 

[Heracr055]

I find ROB to be a challenging match up because he is a heavy character with excellent recovery. His moveset is also quirky, so it's hard to judge wha't he'll do and how to react to them.
He has two projectiles: the laser and the gyro. The laser, when fully charged, is relatively easy to dodge. Sometimes ROB will sneak in partially charged shots that, while weaker, will travel faster and typically get free damage on us. The gyro is a tricky item; he can release it whenever he wants and have an annoying projectile to play mind games with. His neutral air has good range and covers his whole body. His back air has pretty good knockback and is fearsome in the hands of a good ROB. At lower percents his down grab leads to up aerial juggles, which is effective and has good knockback. Around 110% (correct me if I'm wrong) he gets the stock on us with the Up Throw/ His Side Smash and Up Smash have great knockback and can kill us relatively easily. Lastly, his recovery is top notch.
On the plus side, we like to combo and juggle heavy characters. You need to get past the laser and gyro to meet him in close quarters combat, where we can Down Throw him and combo him with aerials. Arrows are also effective because of his large size. Side B is good to catch him whenever he's trying to land. When he is at high enough percent, he'll have to rely on his Up B to make it back to the stage. Going off stage and exploiting his predictable and slow recovery is essential. Down Air will be easier to land on him due to his size and slow recovery, and neutral air is pretty good for catching him too if he's coming from below. Forward and back air as appropriate too; if you can't kill him near the blast zone or below the stage, he'll stick around for a long time. Lastly, keep your Forward Throw fresh; you want ROB dead as soon as possible, so don't take away one of your best kill options near the ledge.
I'd say the MU is 55:45 ROB. It's definitely doable, but you have to work for that win.

 

[Otsillac]

R.O.B is weird. This is basically theory, I haven't played many R.O.Bs, but I'd guess it's a tough MU. He's got a good zoning game, and of course, heavy weight always gives Pit trouble due to his low kill power. R.O.B also has big damage with combos. Although, the bot himself is pretty bad in disadvantage; it's juggle city for us. We can also abuse his slow recovery for some a damage, a gimp, a stage spike, or even just a straight-up spike dair. Pit does have a hard time getting in, so I think it's 55:45, R.O.B's favor, maybe even. Again, mostly theory, take it all with a grain of salt. Play patient and it's very doable.

 

[AmericanSaikyo]

Not much experience playing R.O.B's, but when I have they have always been close contests. Usually I try and frustrate his gyro charging with arrows and if he retaliates with laser get a quick reflector in, but in the end R.O.B has an advantage at range. On the ground up close I don't feel any one side has the advantage save for our grab combos being viable longer than his. Air wise R.O.B's fair and uair are decent but overall pit is quicker and more reliable in the air. Recovering is in our favor since his spike is slow and easy to see coming, and if he is recovering against us we can really make him sweat with quicker options. I'd say this is an even MU because both have good options against the other without any one breaking the scales in either characters favor.

 

[Ffamran]

Again today, I will be soaring through the sky!
My enemies, I'll DISH 'EM UP in a stir fry!
Gracious Goddess of the light, watches from up above
At dinner time I always SHOW THE COOK SOME LOOOVE!

Hey, angels of light and... er... darkness? Independence? Nature? Whatever... Anyway, the Falco boards began their ongoing matchup discussion of Pit and Dark Pit, so drop in whenever. Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...e-pits-our-wings-just-dont-work-right.405990/.

And for fun or MU grinding, check here if you want to fight some Falco players: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Makorel]

I've been wanting to say something about the R.O.B. match up for a few days but I'm not really sure what. As a result this post is fairly stream of consciousness.

I can't see R.O.B. being a harder match up than Luigi. He's got two projectiles and they go far but he can't spam them like Luigi can spam fireballs. Pit is pressured to approach more than R.O.B is. Both have similar range, although I think Pit's range is more disjointed than R.O.B.'s is? A R.O.B. off the stage seems like gimp fodder since his Up B is slow has no hitbox and perhaps most damning he can run out of fuel. Pit has 3 jumps to help him land and avoid combos (and orbitars work great to shield from Up Air if R.O.B. is jumping up to kill you) but on the landing the gyro can help R.O.B. catch you anyway (unless you roll maybe?). R.O.B. being big and only having two jumps with no burst movement option strikes me as easier to juggle while at the same time his Gyro and range makes it easier for him to juggle, though his aerials have blind spots in the corners and nair bair and dair all have quite a bit of start up (and dair can also mix up his landing).

Honestly it looks pretty even. I keep going back to wanting to say one beats the other in neutral, advantage and disadvantage but they both seem to beat each other in different areas of those states.

 

[Strider_123]

I will start off by saying i think R.o.b. has the advantage!
in the hands of a good R.o.b. player 2 things will get on your nerves:
1) R.O.B.'s neutral air. That move has range and very little lag if you time it well. whats worse is if R.o.b. is trying to land with this move hardly anything can punish it. Up smash is no use against this move, upper arm dash is not dependable enough. the only option seems to be up aerial and even thats risky. Did i mention that this move has great range!
2) R.O.B's gyro. His gyro can start up some nasty combos, and is a useful tool for r.o.b. they are great for mind games and edge guarding. when you use the orbiters its a hit or miss, not dependable. it sometimes just bounces off/doesn't hurt and gives r.o.b a free grab combo.
I also like to add a good R.O.B. player won't allow you to easily gimp him. its hard to even try to because pit doesn't have the best aerial mobility and R.O.B. players will see us coming from a mile away and adjust.
Its not all bad though! Pit is quick on the ground and can combo R.O.B. Pits arrows are very useful for hitting him offstage because hes such a big target. Also if your playing in battlefield pit can juggle him even easier! Its also nice to mention, besides dodging gyros offstage, R.O.B. doesn't normally try to go offstage and challenge pits aerials. the most you will see is R.O.B standing near the ledge trying to land a spike on our recovery. Pit has a lot of tools himself so he still puts up a fight >:D go! Pits my favorite for a reason! He can adapt very well!
but overall i'd say its in R.O.B.s favor.

 

[Darklink2nd]

Ok it's been like 2 weeks so how about this guy? (Ness)

 

[Funkermonster]

I'm still learning some of the ropes of , but I've been putting a lot of practice into him for the past 2 months and I think I am finally competent enough with him, and I'll give my inputs on the MU.

Pit's advantages:

• ROB's recovery is weak and we can edgeguard him nicely: its slow mobing without a hitbox and if he runs out of a fuel, even teching a stagespike won't save him. We can harass him with the arrows while he's offstage, Bair him, or even straight-up spike him with Dair. It can be dfficult to catch him due to our low air speed, but with proper arrow usage it can be done
• ROB's melee prowess isn't all that great, and think we can beat him just fine in close range once we bypass his projectiles. His Jab sucks, his smashes are pretty slow, his tilts have mediocre range (Dtilt is very good for him tho), and is grab is so-so.
• We win in air-to-air battles too, our disjoints out range his moves and almost all of his aerials have abysmal startup. None of them can reliably KO either.
• He's a giant character with heavier than average weight, it takes longer to kill him outright but at the same times it makes it easier for us to combo him with Dthrow shenanigans.
• His biggest weakness is that he is not only big and heavy, but surprisingly floaty and has tons of problems coming back on the ground from above, can't really deal with being juggled very well. His aerials do a poor job of protecting him as they all have long startup barring Fair and Uair, nether of which protect below him. Even his Nair is slow to come out, and can be dealt with if you just challenge it instead of sitting in shield. Pester him with Uair, Usmash, Utilt, and arrows, he'll hate it.

ROB's advantages:

• Still a solid neutral game wih the lasers and the gyro, can be tough and annoying to approach him and our DownB is too unsafe to be reliable. Only so much we can do with arrows at a distance.
• Still got that Nair that's great for approaching and occasionally landing if ou're too slow to catch him.
• Many Gyro Shenanigans: Z-Dropping them, Threatening Landings, Ledge Guarding, Getting Grabs, and comboing. Meanwhile, you're not likely to get all of these luxuries if you grab his gyro, and I would advise against doing so unless ROB is offstage. Grabbing his Gyro is a trap that revokes you of many options, and ROB will punish you for it.
• Good damage off Dthrow combos and his Uair juggles are always a pain to deal with.
• Landing back on the ground is not good for us either, can only hope to make good use of our multiple jumps and space a Fair and Bair properly and hope not to get Uaired by ROB. He can cover the ground with a gyro too, and it can be annoying

Not gonna lie, I personally find ROB painful to go against and I have my troubles with him, even with the character I truly main, (who has a clear advantage over him). But as pesky as he is, I'm gonna call it it 60:40 in our favor regardless: ROB has a better zoning game and kinda wins the neutral, but I think we win the close range game, offstage game,aerial game, and he has a really hard time winning back the neutral game once he's put in the disadvantage due to his wonky attributes. He's annoying as hell at first, but I feel that once you get used to it and start putting more pressure on him (especially when he has to land back) he's not that hard to fight against.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I believe R.O.B has the MU by 55:45.
Since it's been a while, can we talk about one of the hardest MU's for Dark/Pit which is Sonic, please?

 

[BaPr]

I believe R.O.B has the MU by 55:45.
Since it's been a while, can we talk about one of the hardest MU's for Dark/Pit which is Sonic, please?

I second this. I don't like Sonic dittos, so I want to know how to deal with him using Pit. If it is too much in Sonic's favor, then I guess dittos are the best option

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I second this. I don't like Sonic dittos, so I want to know how to deal with him using Pit. If it is too much in Sonic's favor, then I guess dittos are the best option

Since Sonic is your secondary or whatever you most likely know what he can and can't do, use that to figure out the mu more. Arrows are good to stop spindashes, but you must only shoot from a far due to Sonic's annoying running speed beat your end lag timing. Down smash is a good way to stop his approach. When ever he down throws you, try to tech but don't let him catch on to this, mix it up a bit and tech roll or possibly miss tech on purpose. I feel if you're playing this mu Dark Pit is a better option due to side b trajectory but I could be wrong. Sadly, I feel this mu is still heavily in Sonic's favor.
May someone please tell me how do we punish his side b neutral b?

 

[Funkermonster]

I believe R.O.B has the MU by 55:45.
Since it's been a while, can we talk about one of the hardest MU's for Dark/Pit which is Sonic, please?

Can you elaborate on why you think ROB wins by 55:45? Not seein how he would beat us, and I'd like to see your reasoning behind it.

Since Sonic is your secondary or whatever you most likely know what he can and can't do, use that to figure out the mu more. Arrows are good to stop spindashes, but you must only shoot from a far due to Sonic's annoying running speed beat your end lag timing. Down smash is a good way to stop his approach. When ever he down throws you, try to tech but don't let him catch on to this, mix it up a bit and tech roll or possibly miss tech on purpose. I feel if you're playing this mu Dark Pit is a better option due to side b trajectory but I could be wrong. Sadly, I feel this mu is still heavily in Sonic's favor.
May someone please tell me how do we punish his side b neutral b?

How to punish Homing Attack: Spotdodge (not shield) it and then punish afterwards, its not that safe. Homing attack has low priority as well, so you could probably just Up Tilt or Up Smash him out of it. SideB? Shield it and wait and see what Sonic does afterwards:

• If he jumps away (and a LOT of Sonics will jump away after hitting your shield), jump out of shield and punish with Bair or Uair depending on whether he goes above or behind you. Sometimes they will do a homing attack after it, but again you can up tilt, up smash, or spotdodge it.
• If he continues rolling, chase after him and punish the screech stop animation (like he has in his own games, partcularly his first 4 on the genesis)
• Sometimes they might use spring after hitting your shield, which is very bad because Sonic's landing options are horrid and his defenses against opponents right below him are incredibly bad. Anytime you catch Sonic above you, do the best you can to exploit it and juggle or punish his landing, he has no safe moves that put a good hitbox right below him. A lot of Sonics will try to land with Spring to Dair, but even that isn't reliable because usng sprng deprives sonic of all his other special moves and its trajectory is telegraphed, Pit/D.Pit has just enough mobility to rush to his landing point before he can hit the ground and punish.
• Spindashes have very low priority, and a lot of moves will clank with it, even a jab or tilt will stop it if you're feeling gutsy about a hard read. Two patches ago they reduced the damage on it, and reduced damage = reduced priority. Thanks to this there are fewer moves that will clank with spin dashes and charges,now more moves will just beat it outrght. Sakurai... thanks a lot .

Really, a lot of people give the spindashes too much respect, and a lot of people can't tell the difference between his sideb and downb. The spindash itself isn't as great as people make it out to be, its the mixups and ATs he has out of it that make it great, and its basically Sonic's only real form of approach. Sonic's weakness lies in his approach game, he doesn't an easy mode approach button like Sheik's fair and to get in, his only approach is basically "Try to make him mess up" or "Rely on my opponent to make a mistake". If that is your greatest form of approach, you've got a ****ty approach, and he's gonna have a hard time getting in if his opponent knows what he's going to do, and you should pretty much able to body Sonics who do nothing but spin to win. Used to have Sonic as a 2ndary myself, before I switched my main from Greninja to Mega Man and demoted him to pocket status, I still play him but he's kinda now taken a back seat in my car.

I also disagree that is better for this MU because of SideB trajectory. Not only do you have to be closer to the ledge for the sideb to have any reliable kill power, but you don't send Sonic right above you ith it anymore like you would with Pit, and thats right where you want him because of his crappy landing options. Honestly, I can barely think of any MUs where I'd prefer Dark Pit over the original besides maybe (electroshock kills Luma very easily) or those with terrible recoveries like and .

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Can you elaborate on why you think ROB wins by 55:45? Not seein how he would beat us, and I'd like to see your reasoning behind it.



How to punish Homing Attack: Spotdodge (not shield) it and then punish afterwards, its not that safe. Homing attack has low priority as well, so you could probably just Up Tilt or Up Smash him out of it. SideB? Shield it and wait and see what Sonic does afterwards:

• If he jumps away (and a LOT of Sonics will jump away after hitting your shield), jump out of shield and punish with Bair or Uair depending on whether he goes above or behind you. Sometimes they will do a homing attack after it, but again you can up tilt, up smash, or spotdodge it.
• If he continues rolling, chase after him and punish the screech stop animation (like he has in his own games, partcularly his first 4 on the genesis)
• Sometimes they might use spring after hitting your shield, which is very bad because Sonic's landing options are horrid and his defenses against opponents right below him are incredibly bad. Anytime you catch Sonic above you, do the best you can to exploit it and juggle or punish his landing, he has no safe moves that put a good hitbox right below him. A lot of Sonics will try to land with Spring to Dair, but even that isn't reliable because usng sprng deprives sonic of all his other special moves and its trajectory is telegraphed, Pit/D.Pit has just enough mobility to rush to his landing point before he can hit the ground and punish.
• Spindashes have very low priority, and a lot of moves will clank with it, even a jab or tilt will stop it if you're feeling gutsy about a hard read. Two patches ago they reduced the damage on it, and reduced damage = reduced priority. Thanks to this there are fewer moves that will clank with spin dashes and charges,now more moves will just beat it outrght. Sakurai... thanks a lot .

Really, a lot of people give the spindashes too much respect, and a lot of people can't tell the difference between his sideb and downb. The spindash itself isn't as great as people make it out to be, its the mixups and ATs he has out of it that make it great, and its basically Sonic's only real form of approach. Sonic's weakness lies in his approach game, he doesn't an easy mode approach button like Sheik's fair and to get in, his only approach is basically "Try to make him mess up" or "Rely on my opponent to make a mistake". If that is your greatest form of approach, you've got a ****ty approach, and he's gonna have a hard time getting in if his opponent knows what he's going to do, and you should pretty much able to body Sonics who do nothing but spin to win. Used to have Sonic as a 2ndary myself, before I switched my main from Greninja to Mega Man and demoted him to pocket status, I still play him but he's kinda now taken a back seat in my car.

I also disagree that is better for this MU because of SideB trajectory. Not only do you have to be closer to the ledge for the sideb to have any reliable kill power, but you don't send Sonic right above you ith it anymore like you would with Pit, and thats right where you want him because of his crappy landing options. Honestly, I can barely think of any MUs where I'd prefer Dark Pit over the original besides maybe (electroshock kills Luma very easily) or those with terrible recoveries like and .

About the ROB mu, look above in this thread and plus my experience in the mu makes me think that approaching him is very difficult.

Dark Pit is stronger in a lot of mu's (stages strengthen them both a lot mu wise)debatable but also , etc

And punishing Sonic's side b with airels isn't always an option

 

[BaPr]

Since Sonic is your secondary or whatever you most likely know what he can and can't do, use that to figure out the mu more. Arrows are good to stop spindashes, but you must only shoot from a far due to Sonic's annoying running speed beat your end lag timing.

You also have to be careful when he is charging a spindash even at far distances, since the little jump at the beginning has projectile invincibility. If he charged it long enough, he can go through your arrow and hit you before you can do anything.

Down smash is a good way to stop his approach. When ever he down throws you, try to tech but don't let him catch on to this, mix it up a bit and tech roll or possibly miss tech on purpose. I feel if you're playing this mu Dark Pit is a better option due to side b trajectory but I could be wrong. Sadly, I feel this mu is still heavily in Sonic's favor.
May someone please tell me how do we punish his side b neutral b?

I wouldn't say it is heavily in Sonic's favor. At most, maybe a 65:35, but even that seems like a bit too much. @ Funkermonster did a good job explaining how to handle him, but also know that if you do shield homing attack instead of spot dodging you can let go of your shield and do a quick jump cancelled up smash.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

You also have to be careful when he is charging a spindash even at far distances, since the little jump at the beginning has projectile invincibility. If he charged it long enough, he can go through your arrow and hit you before you can do anything.

I wouldn't say it is heavily in Sonic's favor. At most, maybe a 65:35, but even that seems like a bit too much. @ Funkermonster did a good job explaining how to handle him, but also know that if you do shield homing attack instead of spot dodging you can let go of your shield and do a quick jump cancelled up smash.

I feel this mu is very hard for the Pit's. Maybe it's just because of my experience in it. We also can jump out of most up throw combos. We have some good advantages but I feel Sonic has better tools..

 

[BaPr]

I feel this mu is very hard for the Pit's. Maybe it's just because of my experience in it. We also can jump out of most up throw combos. We have some good advantages but I feel Sonic has better tools..

The match up will definitely feel better once you are more experienced in it. I used to feel the same way about the Sonic/Rosalina matchup until my friend picked up Rosalina which helped a lot.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

The match up will definitely feel better once you are more experienced in it. I used to feel the same way about the Sonic/Rosalina matchup until my friend picked up Rosalina which helped a lot.

Hopefully so. Rush down characters who are difficult to punish are some of Dark/Pit's hardest mu's imo.