Q&A Bayonetta Technique Compendium and Q&A

[ぱみゅ]

ikep posted his list too, and he did state that she has a total of 0 negative matchups.

 

[Heracr055]

How do you guys feel about the Toon Link MU? I'm looking for a secondaru for my Ryu and am curious how Tink fares against Bayo

 

[Lorde]

Many people are of the opinion that it's one of Bayo's worst MUs. Bayo generally doesn't like projectiles, so Toon Link can just sit back and do his thing while Bayo struggles to find an opening.

I've never played against a good Toon Link, so I can't give my personal input on the MU

 

[Fenny]

DELICIOUS

This is that weird crouch slide thing that we emulated by just spamming crouch while moving forward

We can finally do it consistently

And we happen to have the 2nd furthest in the game, just slightly behind MK

^____________^

 

[Lakuto]

This technique will make the Toon Link MU great again.
(powershield > step dash > grab/another powershield...)

 

[KirbCider]

I have a quick question about Bayonettas Neutral B.

It seems that I am having some troubles with it and I'm trying to figure out the cause of said troubles. Currently, I believe it may be related to lag Online (despite it looking like there's no lag present). When holding down B to charge she will occasionally and very randomly grab out of no where, or if I do it in the air she will randomly air dodge. I am not pressing anything else when doing this either.

She will also randomly fire it off once she lands as well where as I've seen Bayonetta players able to hold it when landing. Again, I'm only holding and pressing B and am not pressing anything else. I'm sure it's not the controller as I have no issues with anything else.

Bayonetta is the only one I have this issue with, and it's only with her neutral B.

Every other input I do works fine, especially with other characters that I use. Is it just due to lag, or is there something else going on? Help would be appreciated. I hope it's not in my head. (I haven't tried to see if it happens offline yet, as I barely play offline to begin with)

 

[Lorde]

If you use ABK/Witch Twist in the air, Bullet Climax will fire as soon as you touch the ground (otherwise you could just shield cancel it as you hit the ground and there'd be no landing lag).

I've literally never experienced the random grab/air dodges and I've spent countless hours with Bayo in the lab, so I can't help you there. Maybe it's your button scheme or something?

 

[KirbCider]

If you use ABK/Witch Twist in the air, Bullet Climax will fire as soon as you touch the ground (otherwise you could just shield cancel it as you hit the ground and there'd be no landing lag).

That I did not know at all, so now that I do I'll be able to do it without trouble now.

I've literally never experienced the random grab/air dodges and I've spent countless hours with Bayo in the lab, so I can't help you there. Maybe it's your button scheme or something?

Well I'm using the Smash Gamecube Controller, and the only things I've done differently for it is turn Tap Jump off and made L a jump (since I only use R to shield anyways). I'm guessing I'll have to try it offline in training mode or against a CPU to see if it still happens. If it doesn't, then I guess it might be due to some lag issues. If it does, then I have no idea how or what I'm doing to cause it.

I figured I might of been doing some odd Bayonetta Tech I had no idea about, but I guess that's not the case. I play Bayonneta on and off so I don't know her 100% quite yet. It's slightly annoying to say the least, but it doesn't exactly doom me. It still sucks when it happens.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I have a quick question about Bayonettas Neutral B.

It seems that I am having some troubles with it and I'm trying to figure out the cause of said troubles. Currently, I believe it may be related to lag Online (despite it looking like there's no lag present). When holding down B to charge she will occasionally and very randomly grab out of no where, or if I do it in the air she will randomly air dodge. I am not pressing anything else when doing this either.

She will also randomly fire it off once she lands as well where as I've seen Bayonetta players able to hold it when landing. Again, I'm only holding and pressing B and am not pressing anything else. I'm sure it's not the controller as I have no issues with anything else.

Bayonetta is the only one I have this issue with, and it's only with her neutral B.

Every other input I do works fine, especially with other characters that I use. Is it just due to lag, or is there something else going on? Help would be appreciated. I hope it's not in my head. (I haven't tried to see if it happens offline yet, as I barely play offline to begin with)

Sounds just like a controller issue to me, tbh.

 

[KirbCider]

Sounds just like a controller issue to me, tbh.

I had actually tried it offline yesterday in both Training Mode (tried various speeds and experimented) as well as went against CPUs while only doing Neutral B in the air and ground the whole time. It seems like it didn't happen at all offline; however once I went Online after all of that I still got the problem occasionally in some matches. So it seems like it happens Online, but that confuses me more.

It doesn't really happen constantly, just very randomly in some matches.

Would any kind of lag really cause her to grab and air dodge at random points like that when charging her Bullet Climax?

I guess I should of also noted earlier that I only started to have this problem with Bullet Climax after the 1.1.6 update. Before that she never did it at all. Could it be to some slight problem from when the update happened? Should I also experiment with another controller?

Anyways, thanks for the help guys. At least I now know it's gotta be some weird problem on my end. Hopefully I can find a fix for it.

 

[luke_atyeo]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

 

[ぱみゅ]

This is an interesting project. I am definitely supporting it.
I'll give it a shot, though you may not need all of these:
Witch Twist and AfterBurner Kick can be SDI'd. You may not always escape from them, but your goal is to be at a position to avoid the next hit, or a harder punish.
Heel Slide creates a 50/50.
Witch Time gets stale after every use, successful or not.
You can not escape from the rapid jab, but sometimes you may be able to jump away or attack after the third hit of jab.
The Wicked Weaves have low priority. It is not "Projectile Priority", moves with low and high priority exist in this game.
Nearly every move of Bayonetta can be hold for Bullet Arts.

I may write more points later.

 

[luke_atyeo]

This is an interesting project. I am definitely supporting it.
I'll give it a shot, though you may not need all of these:
Witch Twist and AfterBurner Kick can be SDI'd. You may not always escape from them, but your goal is to be at a position to avoid the next hit, or a harder punish.
Heel Slide creates a 50/50.
Witch Time gets stale after every use, successful or not.
You can not escape from the rapid jab, but sometimes you may be able to jump away or attack after the third hit of jab.
The Wicked Weaves have low priority. It is not "Projectile Priority", moves with low and high priority exist in this game.
Nearly every move of Bayonetta can be hold for Bullet Arts.

I may write more points later.

heel slide creates a 50/50 kill setup at kill percents?
When witch time gets stale, the length of time that the opponent is slowed for gets shorter and shorter right?
Does that upB out of the first few frames of double jump to keep your double jump thing still work?

Does the whole bat within give bayo different dodge frames from the rest of the cast, how does it work?
Any other basic info/tech that you would assume is basic knowledge for any bayo player that someone who has never played or versed the character wouldnt know?

 

[Flamegeyser]

heel slide creates a 50/50 kill setup at kill percents?
When witch time gets stale, the length of time that the opponent is slowed for gets shorter and shorter right?
Does that upB out of the first few frames of double jump to keep your double jump thing still work?

Does the whole bat within give bayo different dodge frames from the rest of the cast, how does it work?
Any other basic info/tech that you would assume is basic knowledge for any bayo player that someone who has never played or versed the character wouldnt know?

Well if you do the second witch twist between 3 and 4 frames after the first (difficult, but actually pretty easy once you know the timing) you can do your double jump afterwards instead of before. This is good for characters who try and edgeguard us with counters.

Using neutral b in the air (and you have to actually shoot, no cancelling) will cancel any lag that we had from using multiple specials in a row.

Nair and sour bair lead to a guaranteed grab at low%s.

Uthrow uair can be a true kill combo if the opponent Di's incorrectly and at very specific %s. Don't count on it though.

Dtilt->bair is a powerful kill confirm off the side that, bewilderingly, no on seems to use, with most people opting instead for dtilt->uair, but both should be remembered.

Nair BA should theoretically cover all ledge options if you fade back in case they roll.

Bat Within makes our airdodge "begin" on frame 1 and roll dodge "begin" on frame 3 at the cost of both of those being incredibly laggy after the fact.

WTw sh nair is a difficult, but powerful true combo edgeguard, which can kill as early as 80% (or sooner if they have no jump) if gotten even a little bit off the ledge.

Grounded footstool dair is true on most characters, however only certain characters will get hit by the powerful landing hitbox.

Sour utilt combos into bair if the bair is RAR'd and this works at both combo and kill%s if the opponent doesn't DI away.

Neutral b can jab lock, although doing so can be a pain thanks to it's awkward angle.

If a special move is inputted a very short (single digit number of frames) before you hit the ground, it will remove any lag you might have from previous aerial specials and do the move instead, however the timing is somewhat punishing.

There's probably a lot more, but those can all be useful to know.

 

[ぱみゅ]

heel slide creates a 50/50 kill setup at kill percents?

Against Bayonetta, any airdodge at a bad moment can score a kill as low as about 70%.

When witch time gets stale, the length of time that the opponent is slowed for gets shorter and shorter right?

Yes.

Does that upB out of the first few frames of double jump to keep your double jump thing still work?

Also yes.

Does the whole bat within give bayo different dodge frames from the rest of the cast, how does it work?

Alright, first, please look at this: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/bayonetta
At the bottom of the 1.1 section you'll find her dodges data.
Using the Spotdodge as an example: Intangibility 5-19 (Bat Within: 1-4).
It means that on the 5-19 frame window will effectively avoid attacks as any other dodge would. But at the 1-4 window, any hit will activate Bat Within: Bayonetta will take half the damage and will resume her animation later. However, she can get grabbed during this time, making it worse than regular dodges against grabs (most spotdodges begin intangibility from Frame 2 for example).
If I were to write it down as a quick note to make it easy to understand it would go like:
Bat Within avoids attacks (but not grabs) during the beginning of her dodges, taking half the damage but no knockback at all.

Any other basic info/tech that you would assume is basic knowledge for any bayo player that someone who has never played or versed the character wouldnt know?

I might think of more later.

 

[luke_atyeo]

ignore this post

 

[Flamegeyser]

So WTw nair is a godly edgeguarding maneuver. The timing is a little tight but doable, and if they get hit with it offstage above 80% and aren't like Villy or somethin, they dead.

 

[Lakuto]

I personally do Wtw Nair with cstick Nair and inputting jump with a shoulder button. That way you can do it frame perfect easier-ish, the "ish" being not SDing with a misinput Dair with cstick.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I personally do Wtw Nair with cstick Nair and inputting jump with a shoulder button. That way you can do it frame perfect easier-ish, the "ish" being not SDing with a misinput Dair with cstick.

Well that's why I use up-right diagonal so that I don't dair .
I tried not using diagonal stick earlier, it wasn't happening. I'm sure I can do it with practice, but I've almost got it perfectly consistent as it is. It's really just a timing thing, just gotta listen for the final hit and then do it, the buffer should allow a kill. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work on fast fallers.

 

[DJBor]

A list of combo mixups that I have pulled. None of these are true, they're just mixups
jab 3 > dtilt > usmash (KO option)
weak utilt > ABK (combo starter mixup)
back weak bullet-arts nair > short hop bair (KO option)
heel slide near ledge > dsmash (this is hilarious if pulled off)
witch time near ledge > jump > hadoken > hadoken > dair spike (second jump must be saved for recovery)

 

[Flamegeyser]

I'm sure we all know by now, but fair has some Godly shield pressure potential since it's basically just a jab in the air. You can fade back after fair1 to avoid punish, go for fair2 to make them drop shield, go for ABK to distance yourself and possibly combo confirm, witch time to catch their attempted punish, nair for an excellent landing, crossup bair, and really whatever else you want.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Also it's really fun to stage spike people with!

You just kinda go "bink" and they die.

 

[MagicSchlong]

What is Wtw Nair?

 

[Fenny]

What is Wtw Nair?

Witch Twist to neutral air. If you get them off-stage, chances are they'll DI in. So WTwist to double jump Nair can kill them stupid early.

 

[MagicSchlong]

Witch Twist to neutral air. If you get them off-stage, chances are they'll DI in. So WTwist to double jump Nair can kill them stupid early.

Oh ok thank u, then what is the second w in Wtw stand for?

 

[Lorde]

Some people use WTw to differentiate it from Witch Time, since both of them could be abbreviated as WT

 

[MagicSchlong]

Some people use WTw to differentiate it from Witch Time, since both of them could be abbreviated as WT

That make sense, thank you. Wanted to make sure in case I was missing something.

 

[Lakuto]

So I've been messing around with Witch Time out of shield (Shield > Jump > Witch Time)

As you all know, Witch Time is the only counter that doesn't refresh hitboxes of moves that have been shielded/powershielded. So, you have to use it if you know your opponent is gonna hit your shield twice (ex: Fox falling down with Nair > Ftilt/Utilt on shield). It worked here only because of the Bullet Arts of Heel Slide.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

How do you all deal with Wii Fit Trainer?
I thought I would ask since Bayo is a MU I struggle with a lot. So I need to ask.

Thanks for maybe helping a clueless WFT main!

 

[Fenny]

How do you all deal with Wii Fit Trainer?
I thought I would ask since Bayo is a MU I struggle with a lot. So I need to ask.

Thanks for maybe helping a clueless WFT main!

In my experience, WFTs basically lose the MU once Bayo works her way around her projectiles. I invest a bit of time (especially on FD) baiting out Sun Salutations and making her approach. Well timed Bullet Arts tend to do the job, because they do a lot of chip damage. Once she's in my range, Bayo can basically pummel on her because of her superior hitboxes - provided she spaces her properly, WFT can't really do a ton. Overall, as long as you play patient, WFT isn't really much of a threat.

Offstage, WFT is probably one of the harder characters to edgeguard because of Header. Bayo can usually Witch Time her attempts but far enough offstage and she isn't really getting much of a punish off on her. Her best bet is to deflect her balls with Nair, and then abuse her when she Up Bs.

 

[Nah]

Quick question about Bat Within: does it ALWAYS activate if you hit Bayonetta during her airdodge start-up/endlag, or just some of the time?

 

[Lorde]

It only activates during the start-up frames, so 1-4 on airdodge/spotdodge and 3-5 on rolls. The only time Bat Within activates during the end lag of a move is after Witch Time's counter window ends (but Witch Time actually does have a small window when Bat Within can activate during the counter frames, so you can Bat Within and counter a move at the same time)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bat Within is just a glorified dodge.
I had to say it somewhere.

 

[Opana]

What are the optimal/possible ways to punish di during side b/up b combos?

Down and away is difficult but I'd like input on the subject as a whole.

 

[SmashNOiZ]

I'm not sure how you're supposed to do it, but I give it the Street Fighter and quarter-circle from down to either left or right (depending on where you want to go) and then press B. Can confirm that it works every time this way.

An easy way i do it is input down first then immediately do side-B, though my comment maybe irrelevent now, so im sorry if I'm late.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Random thought that came to mind the other day, pivot uair in either combos or killing. Theoretically it'll mixup DI off of dtilt uair at kill%, which is fantastic since DI really screw that confirm over. It also confirms 20-40% earlier off of dtilt at combo%s, although the combos aren't much better than regular combos, if at all.

Another thing, tipper dtilt launches the opponent at a slightly away angle and most people DI away to avoid followups, anyways, but thanks to that it might be possible to do tipper dtilt>late ABK> dj uair at kill%s to allow the tip to be able to kill confirm as well as popping them up higher anyways.

 

[Zult]

https://clips.twitch.tv/polaritygg/FairLemurEagleEye

As shown in this video, is doing a jump cancel witch twist any different than doing a normal witch twist?

 

[Flamegeyser]

https://clips.twitch.tv/polaritygg/FairLemurEagleEye

As shown in this video, is doing a jump cancel witch twist any different than doing a normal witch twist?

all JCWTw does is allow you to use your double jump after the 2nd Wtw.

 

[Zult]

all JCWTw does is allow you to use your double jump after the 2nd Wtw.

It doesn't cover more distance? Because it looks like it does. And Zack does it a lot.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yes it does cover more distance (the distance of the beginning of your jump). Zack has one of the best mobility among Bayonetta players.