BBR MU Chart Sweets

[Airslash]

That made no sense Slash. It's simply this:

We beat MKs that don't know the MU
Average MKs that know the MU make it even to worse
Top MKs that know the MU **** the soifhoiroeifsodij off us

Yeah, I guess you're right there. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Z'zgashi]

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Changes imo:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:

 

[Lukingordex]

We have some good things against Snake, -1 is fair.

Meta Knight is bad,but I don´t think we deserve a -3,-2 seems to be more accurate.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo just the fact that we have to work SO HARD for a kill, have to do twice the damage, get outcamped, AND that Snake's tilts are difficult to space against and kill early is really bad for us. We have to play so much better and work way harder to accomplish anything against Snake, and imo I feel like we really just need to completely outplay them or just straight up be a much better player in order to win.

And against MK, if the opponent knows what theyre doing, he can COMPLETELY shut us down. The only reason it doesnt look as bad at first is cuz our grab release and the fact that we are so mobile, plus the long ranged command grab with egg lay that can be used in the air, great pivot grab that can outrange poorly spaced aerials easily, and our usmash that goes through a lot of his stupid or cocky approaches. Really though, if the MK is good and familiar with the MU, there really isnt much we can do other than run and hope for a mistake, over extension, or miss spaced approach to do anything at all.

 

[Delta-cod]

Changes imo:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:

Falco, yes.

MK is honestly -2 at worst. I can't see it being a -3 as long as I'm playing my spacing game well. And yes, Yoshi's spacing game is effective against MK.

Snake is iffy. I wanna say it's terrible after Bizkit made me look like a *****, but then I play other Snakes and it's not bad. It could have just been a player match up that wrecked me, or maybe I played poorly, or something.

We definitely do not lost to Wario.

ICs might be a -1. I still think we can be too gay for that to be true, though.

Kirby should never have been a -1 in the first place. -.-''

Zelda ***** us, yo.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I think Snake might be a -2 it's really hard to tell. There's some moments where I feel -1 is right, but then there's other moments where I feel there's absolutely no way to kill a smart Snake without a silly gimmick. Also, am I the only one who finds Fox harder than Wolf and Falco? @_@ I honestly feel Fox should also be a -2. Someone teach me this mu I seriously hate it >_>

I also feel we may have a +1 against Peach. Just my 2 cents :x

 

[Lukingordex]

Zelda being 0 looks strange,we have different ways to win her,but idk why something is telling me 0 is acceptable lol.

But I still thinking that this MU is +1 or +2.

 

[yoshi8984]

Oh hi. You guys may not know me, (ok Z'z and Tarex know me lol) but I feel the Ness MU is +1 YOSHI'S favor. I played Tarex's Yoshi but it was my 1st tourney so take what I say with a grain of salt. =P

One thing I really loved Tarex did against me (I think he does this against several others, though I'm not too sure XD) is that he used Egg Toss a lot and I got too focused on shielding them that I forgot about Egg Lay and grabbing.
Anyways...

Ness's PKF isn't really useful against Yoshi as Yoshi can easily escape it with his DJ Armor. Yoshi will only take like 5% at the most.

Ness's PKT most likely won't hit Yoshi from far, as Yoshi can Egg Toss Ness.

Yoshi can GR>U-Smash/U-Air Ness, which is bad for us especially at high percents :/

Try not overuse Yoshi Bomb as Ness can heal from the stars that come from it. However, he probably won't get a chance to heal from the stars if it is lag cancelled on a slant.

Yoshi pretty much outranges and outspeeds most of Ness's attacks, another bad thing for us.

However... when Yoshi is off-stage that's when I feel Ness can shine. He can attempt a Dair spike or bait an airdodge and try to go for a Bair or Uair. Yoshi's options when he's offstage are pretty limited.

Ness can kill more reliably imo, he has Bair, B-Throw, Nair (not as great as a killer but still decent), Dair (as a spike ), Uair and PKT2 (though PKT2 is pretty unlikely and trying to tailwhip then PKT2 wouldn't work too well as Yoshi DJ armor goes through tailwhip) while Yoshi has Uair and some others options that I don't know too well of. =P

In the end, Ness has to stay mid-range. Far away and Yoshi can Egg Toss him like there's no tomorrow and Ness can't camp Yoshi, while close range Yoshi outspeeds and outranges Ness. And Yoshi can grab at close range

Again, this is just my opinion and I don't have THAT much experience, but hopefully this helped. And I'll get better at writing up MU summaries with more experience XD

 

[PMC66]

I think Snake might be a -2 it's really hard to tell. There's some moments where I feel -1 is right, but then there's other moments where I feel there's absolutely no way to kill a smart Snake without a silly gimmick. Also, am I the only one who finds Fox harder than Wolf and Falco? @_@ I honestly feel Fox should also be a -2. Someone teach me this mu I seriously hate it >_>

I also feel we may have a +1 against Peach. Just my 2 cents :x

I would have said snake was even both sides seem to have similair durability, eggs mess with nade game, Pivot grab is good for beating out F-tilt and Yoshi's grab range at the ledge gives him some decent cypher grab release opportunities. Main thing to avoid is Up tilt, if Snake lands up tilt then Yoshi will dies around 120%, but Yoshi's egg tosses, pivot grab, the fact his jab hits on frame 3 is useful as well as it's faster than Snake's F-tilt, and like some character you don't have to worry about loosing clashes with it. From experience i've found playing grounded with the odd N-air and early percents B-air set up combos tends to do wonders vs snake, as it can get some quick damage. to me Snake has to play pretty smart to beat a Yoshi that's solid in this matchup. Especially thanks to Yoshi's pivot grabs, eggs and air release off stage seem pretty effective in dealing with Snake. Only thing i'd say is B-air on later percents is extremely dangerous. Snake's saving grace is his killing ability more than anything, his Tilts do good damage but Yoshi has more damage set ups if he throws snake and pressures him with eggs as he tries to land. It's a little like playing snake as wario only your not air released and your ground game fares better in comparison at the expense of powerful kill moves, and not so good effectiveness of ariels later on in this matchup.

Though I will say if you can get a U-air on snake take it xD Snake tends to recover from high up if he's thrown off stage so egg him and maybe go for the odd egg lay mix up. B-air is really good vs Snake's air dodge because it's multi hit so it's harder for snake to time his air dodge to be safe, alot of snakes will try to fast fall an air dodge if they get near to you as they decend and then try to land. In general keep snake above you as much as you can, and try to stay below him especially on higher percents. The odd ariel here and there can work but to win this you've got to get snake above you and your grab range and a little prediction on when he's going to begin an F-tilt can go along way.

Well it's what i think it could be rubbish lol.

honestly though most people seem to agree Falco>Wolf> Fox in terms of Mu difficulty Fox's main advantage is his up smash but his lasers compared to Falco's make him alot easier to fight as they have no hit stun vs Falco Yoshi can't camp and has more limited options because of lasers.

Peach V Yoshi i've played plenty of times but can't tell anybody a thing about it lol.

 

[Deleted member]

^
noooooooooooo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o

<3

 

[PMC66]

^ ? what do you mean burntsocks?

 

[Depster]

Either he thinks the snake MU isn't that simple, or thinks matchup difficulty for the spacies is: anything else>>>>>>Falco.

 

[Deleted member]

I was talking about the snake part.
You left out the reason why snake beats yoshi decently badly, becasue he can walk up and yoshi doesnt have many options. At snakes ftilt range, all you can do is ftilt or shield really, and ftilt is punishable, and if snake gets u in shield he can punish most of the options really easily.

Also you make it sound easier to juggle snake than it should be, as they can just pivot grenade/pivot c4.

If u air release snake he can just jump cypher and then he is just really high up and can do all his pivots. Not that its impossible to juggle snake, its just harder than like every other big character because he can change directions so quickly, and if u hit his grenade with anything but an egg u get blown up too.

 

[Delta-cod]

I air release Snake offstage all the time. Just jump and throw an egg to cover the jump cypher option. If he does it, he'll get hit and then he won't have his jump to gain him the vertical momentum anymore.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ive never even thought of that... I should start doing that, it sounds simple enough lol.

 

[Lukingordex]

Only a doubt:

Is possible to Kirby being even against us?

Actually,I don´t find anything special that makes this MU a +1 for kirby,I really think it is even...

Also,can Yoshi have a +1 against sheik,sheilda and Luigi?

 

[Delta-cod]

Possibly against Luigi, definitely not against Sheik/Sheilda.

 

[PMC66]

I was talking about the snake part.
You left out the reason why snake beats yoshi decently badly, becasue he can walk up and yoshi doesnt have many options. At snakes ftilt range, all you can do is ftilt or shield really, and ftilt is punishable, and if snake gets u in shield he can punish most of the options really easily.

Also you make it sound easier to juggle snake than it should be, as they can just pivot grenade/pivot c4.

If u air release snake he can just jump cypher and then he is just really high up and can do all his pivots. Not that its impossible to juggle snake, its just harder than like every other big character because he can change directions so quickly, and if u hit his grenade with anything but an egg u get blown up too.

I personally find Jab better, it covers snakes side step option if he chooses to use it and it's quite rapid fire, F-tilt to me has too much cool down. predictable F-tilt is still predictable though.

Nades are tricky to deal with sometimes granted.

I unno it just feels even to me when i play snakes. It's certainly not that bad of a matchup for him.

honestly though i'd only shield someone if i'm on the edge of a platform and i'm facing away from them, so i could get a free ariel as i double jump back up in response to certain moves.

Also i think Yoshi can actually oos Jab snake but i wouldn't be able to say i know that for certain.

 

[Deleted member]

Its certainly not a terrible matchup, but yoshi loses.
I was talking about snakes ftilt range, which would be out of yoshis jab range. If he walks up and spaces ftilt you really can only ftilt shield or roll away.

If the snake knows the matchup it gets much harder. Once they stop trying to be tricky and just play basic walking powershielding snake, yoshi's options become limited.
Its one of my better high tier matchups, but yea.

 

[StormAerow]

so whos the worst match up for yoshi?

 

[Yikarur]

Meta Knight, then Falco/Lucario.

 

[Delta-cod]

Metaknight is not our most difficult MU.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I would say either Falco or Lucario honestly.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Easily Falco then Lucario. After that probably MK.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd go lucario, mk, then falco xD
Toon link maybe bad too I'm not sure

 

[RaptorTEC]

Toon Link should be -2. If I remember correctly he was a -1?

 

[Z'zgashi]

If Tink is at -1 thats wrong lol.

But after Falco > Lucario > MK... I personally think Snake, but that could just be me not liking the MU, otherwise Id say either Tink or Wolf. After those 6, I think theres a bit of a gap.

 

[Delta-cod]

Toon Link doesn't beat us that badly wtf. Learn to approach guys. O.o

 

[Z'zgashi]

I can get in just fine, it's just that hes too gay lol. I usually just go Bowser when I play Tink nowadays lol.

 

[Airslash]

MK doesn't fall top five for me.

He's a pretty easy MU to my playstyle.

but i've been playing them all my life, and good ones too.

ones with names lol. (Draco, Fishbait, etc)

 

[Blacknight99923]

what happened to wolf lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

Nothing? Wolf is still a -2 as its always been... I dunno what you mean by 'what happened'...

 

[Delta-cod]

He's probably referring to the time when we all thought Wolf destroyed us.

The answer to your question is: We stopped sucking.

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf is still hard but not that bad.
I've never played a great Tl offline btw, I was just Guessing that its hard if they are good.
I don't think snake is a very bad matchup.

 

[Depster]

I've played MJG a little bit, but only in doubles. I still never thought it was THAT bad though. Definitely don't think Snake is that bad either, but it's been a while since I've played a good snake (let alone good anybody lol).

 

[Yikarur]

well a Wolf that knows the MU by heart kinda destroys Yoshi though.

 

[Lukingordex]

I have a question about the Chain Grab.

-Zero Suit Samus
-Pikachu
-Diddy Kong
-Donkey Kong
-Pit
-King Dedede
-Squirtle
-Charizard
-Snake
-Sonic

On what characters above the Chain Grab works?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not the right thread to ask but anyways...
Everyone but Snake D3 and Pit. We can CG Donkey Kong if he doesn't UpB out of it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

-Zero Suit Samus 2 Frame Opening
-Pikachu
-Diddy Kong
-Donkey Kong Can Up B Out
-Squirtle Can Chain Grab to the ledge for a release to a Fair offstage afterwards
-Charizard
-Sonic If you grab him after he uses his Up B and dont pummel, you can chain grab him to the ledge for a release offstage for a free stock

What Slush said, and here's your list but without the ones it doesnt work on. Also added extra info in red.