BBR Weekly Character Discussion #22: Sheik

[MetalMusicMan]

The best thing mk has against sheik is edgeguarding. Thats where he wins. Its a close fight when on the stage.

Pretty sure this is true, actually. From what I've seen, it's generally even-ish until MK's gimping / Sheik's recovery ruin the party. If the off-stage issues can be avoided, Sheik seems to do decently.

 

[Crow!]

Data time - a little late, but late is better than never.

First, I would like to caution that for characters as low as E tier, the sample size of serious players representing them is quite small. Drawing conclusions from this data alone may be dangerous, much more so than with higher tier characters.

As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.

Not much to see here - Sheik mains (when combined with Sheik/Zelda mains, as they are in the chart above) are doing pretty much exactly what you expect an E tier character to do. No surprises whatsoever.

Ike, however, is still a better character. This says more about Ike than about Sheik.

 

[T-block]

My Sheik is nowhere near high level, but I tend to agree with MK's gimp game being the dominant factor in swaying this matchup in his favour. On stage, Sheik actually has the ability to punish things MK does with her speed and moves that come out quickly. She has a kill move out of a grab in air release > DACUS, and a 70% combo that ends in a u-smash. All in all, she can definitely hold her own on stage.

 

[Sethlon]

I have to agree on sheik vs falco being even. I got to play Armada's sheik at Genesis with my falco, and somehow he managed to out camp my lasers with needles. He would just pull needles and then shield the single laser, repeat until he had full and then release at the best time. I tried the Forward-style 'run off the ledge jump back on double low laser', so he just started full jumping and charging. When I started shdl/full hop lasering to counter, he would just pull needles and then airdodge the lasers. He always had the lead thanks to ftilt combos, and when I tried to get in he'd either interrupt with a dash attack/grab or slip away. It was simultaneously fascinating and frustrating.

You know, I've never met a Snake that actually likes throwing grenades at things that blow them up though. I mean, why on earth would anyone do that? I'm kind of a pessimist about this kind of thing if you can't tell.

Fogo and Ice have actually came up with a fancy trick to get around falco's reflector; if snake throws a grenade, waits for falco to reflect it, and then strips it right as he does, the grenade stays in place and gets detonated by the reflector's hit box. Ice won the third match of our set at Quakecon by killing me twice this way, because I didn't believe he was doing it on purpose, lol.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Fogo and Ice have actually came up with a fancy trick to get around falco's reflector; if snake throws a grenade, waits for falco to reflect it, and then strips it right as he does, the grenade stays in place and gets detonated by the reflector's hit box. Ice won the third match of our set at Quakecon by killing me twice this way, because I didn't believe he was doing it on purpose, lol.

I've seen Ratman do that too when I try to use reflectors on it. (How is Fogo's snake doing now anyway?) It's a really good strat, totally underrated. I don't know the Sheik/Falco matchup, but how does Sheik do on approach if Falco camps his reflector?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

It's really under-rated and under-used. I think Snake can easily outcamp Falco by mixing things up like that though. ...but this is Sheik discussion, so I'll confirm that Sheik's needles are really annoying and when coupled with her F-tilt setups can allow her to keep the lead extremely well against Falco.

 

[Sethlon]

I've seen Ratman do that too when I try to use reflectors on it.

Perhaps I was a bit hasty when I said they came up with the trick then, lol. But enough about snake.

I don't know the Sheik/Falco matchup, but how does Sheik do on approach if Falco camps his reflector?

I'm not sure. I have some experience outside Armada with Cross' sheik back in the day, and I don't ever remember the reflector being useful. I think her (and it is a HER =P) run speed is fast enough to punish a whiffed reflector.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Sounds like testing is in order.

 

[Renki]

I'm actually shocked Sheik was knocked on as little as she was in this discussion. In fact, a lot of people think she's underrated. o.O That's cool.

Pika isn't terribad for Sheik. Just saying. Disadvantage? Sure. Counter/Hard Counter? Eh, not really. =P

 

[<π]

Sheik is definitely underrated and even more than that under played.

What wasn't mentioned here are....
jab cancel set ups into kill moves like dsmash and nair. (honestly think ike like jab cancels and you have sheik.)
ftilt uair frame traps that lead to kills
and fthrow/bthrow frame traps that lead to uair.

vanish is an under used move that can net kills on most lighter characters if you expect an approach or in response to proximity or run into a committed approach but is safer than say... marth's counter since you can on reaction or to the edge or to plats or what ever.

Zelda is a pinch or two better than she is currently perceived, and i think she actually does well against some of sheik's harder match ups like IC, and Pika

Diddy is not a hard match up once you sit down and learn it.
Marth isn't a bad match up for sheik at all... between needles and dash attack I think it's relatively even. Like ankoku said MK is a much much harder character to play agianst and a few people have been calling that close to even.

needles are one of the best projectiles in the game.


Oh sheik's recovery... no sheik's are doing it right. Her recovery is very vrey good just because of invulnerability, her amazing second jump, and the chain.

the chain forces people to have to edge hog, the explotion forces them off the edge while invulnerable. If the roll or stand or jump on stage you can aim for the stage and by the time you reapear they won't have claim on the edge. if they drop off you auto grab while incincible, if they stay they die.
Sheik's upB should be used similar to marth's you force the opponent to edge hog and use your hit box to get the opponent off once their invulnerability is out. too many people try to use her recovery like a horizontal one and thats why it is often percived as bad... it is a bad horizontal recovery almost as bad as zelda's... despite this sheik can still take advantage of plats and other tools while recovering if the ledge for some reason isn't an option.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like the only reason people say/think going to zelda is "risky" is because the shiek players arent actually good at playing zelda. If you switch to zelda and start rushing kills/arent proficient with her, obviously its going to be risky. You should learn the character seperately, and just like you shouldnt rush kills with any other character, you should just play until you get the opening. THe difference is that an opening with zelda is going to kill at 110, while an opening with shiek will kill at 190 XD (just random numbers to prove a point).

 

[Browny]

So I read about how Sheik goes even with snake in super theory bros here... are there any videos of it?

The video thread doesnt have any good examples at all, can anyone link me to a vid of a good sheik vs a high level snake main in tournament? emphasis on 'main' here... (same applies to metaknight too I guess)

 

[The Real Inferno]

So I read about how Sheik goes even with snake in super theory bros here... are there any videos of it?

The video thread doesnt any good examples at all, can anyone link me to a vid of a good sheik vs a high level snake main in tournament? emphasis on 'main' here... (same applies to metaknight too I guess)

I don't really believe Sheik has an even matchup with Snake, but here's a video of Light if it makes you feel better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnMVJ-1y1sw

 

[Judo777]

Zelda helps against pika and IC's alot actually. Zelda does fairly well on IC's and while she isnt great on pika you only have to play zelda til ur above 50 then ur free from the cg.

I personally think one of the main reasons for sheiks under representation is sheik is hard to play with at high levels. Her sheer weight class alone almost forces you to outplay ur opponent in a good number of matchups if you think of it in terms of number of reads that have to be made per character.

 

[<π]

I feel like the only reason people say/think going to zelda is "risky" is because the shiek players arent actually good at playing zelda. If you switch to zelda and start rushing kills/arent proficient with her, obviously its going to be risky. You should learn the character seperately, and just like you shouldnt rush kills with any other character, you should just play until you get the opening. THe difference is that an opening with zelda is going to kill at 110, while an opening with shiek will kill at 190 XD (just random numbers to prove a point).

vert true this used to be my problem I'd switch to zelda and wildly use smashes trying to rush people down with zelda. it just doesn't work like that. It's literally is like trying to win a match with samus having never played her. My zelda is much more competent now and much more patient, she doesn't gain damage horribly quickly or cost me stocks.

 

[Renki]

So I read about how Sheik goes even with snake in super theory bros here... are there any videos of it?

The video thread doesnt have any good examples at all, can anyone link me to a vid of a good sheik vs a high level snake main in tournament? emphasis on 'main' here... (same applies to metaknight too I guess)

Even or slight disadvantage at worst(With Snake). Sheik's problem is that she can't kill the fatty. Not much more needs to be said on the matter. You can just look at their basic character design and moveset mechanics to figure that one out. No reason to get all bent out of shape about it. =P

 

[A2ZOMG]

This character is stupid underrated, only held back by a noticeably bad recovery and weak KO options.

But she's like one of the best characters in the game by far at scoring the first hit and getting a lead, and she can run away REALLY REALLY well. So that alone makes me believe she should be high tier. But that's only the defensive part of her, her offense is above average as well with high mobility, a good grab, AMAZING physics and aerials for juggles. And of course the F-tilt lock. She easily gets in and dishes out damage fast. If she killed early with any other move besides Up-B and sweetspot Up-smash, she would probably be a better character than someone like Olimar. I feel a lot of Sheik users don't use Up-B correctly though, as in many situations where spotdodging works, you can Up-B to punish.

Ignoring how much or how little the F-tilt lock affects you, you can do pretty well against Sheik if you don't mind waiting a lot and have the ability to punish her recovery hard. If there is one matchup where footsies is really prevalent, a lot of characters have to play footsies with Sheik since most forms of conventional zoning work rather poorly against her due to her insane mobility and ability to punish consistently. Generally speaking I like to say that you are not allowed to jump against Sheik due to how easily she can punish it either by throwing a needle or dash attacking where you land, or by pressuring you with her insane vertical spacing options. Getting a hit on Sheik is important since she can be juggled and edgeguarded, and when edgeguarding Sheik the priority is to grab the ledge above all since she is horrible at landing on stage, but is very difficult to pin down if she manages to grab the ledge. Ideally be under 100% so that you can ledgestand which makes it much easier to punish her.

At any rate I think this character is clearly better than all the other mid tiers. She runs away better, camps better, is harder to approach, and generally is better able to apply her entire moveset. Switching to Zelda for safe KOs or move refreshing is also worth considering.

I also see Marth as one of her worst match-ups, outranges her in everything, gimps her easily, escapes of mosts combos with Upb / not much smash DI to fair and juggles her to death.

Funny, since last time I heard Neo ranting about this matchup, it was about how Sheik was really good against Marth due to how easily she ***** Marth's zoning.

Peach and Luigi are also troublesome matchups, as those are the two that involve long-lasting attacks that beat out just about anything Sheik does. It's very annoying. Improper decay will lead to a lot of your "combos" getting mashed out of by nair.

I don't see Sheik having any real trouble against Luigi. From my experience using Luigi against my friend's Sheik, he doesn't have a real answer to Sheik's camping and I would like to go back to how punishable jumping is against Sheik. Yeah don't run straight into his N-air, but you can definitely outspace it with the right aerials (F-air as I recall is disjointed enough to rely on) or simply just camp him whenever he jumps. Edgeguarding him needles still works very well in this matchup (always has since Melee) and he has a lot of trouble actually landing a kill move against Sheik since as I recall none of his Jab cancels into **** are unblockable in this matchup.

 

[Browny]

lol renki, it just bugs me because most mid-low tier character have gone through a phase where they believe that they go even with or are only slightly disadvantaged to MK/Snake. From jiggs to samus, sheik and bowser, practically the only LT characters Ive seen who dont claim this are ganon, ness and lucas. Except those are all merely phases... since then, every single mid tier and lower character has accepted they get brutalised by the top tier characters yet only 1 character still claims to do very well against them; Sheik. But why doesnt she have the results and I cant see any videos to prove it?

:/

 

[phi1ny3]

vert true this used to be my problem I'd switch to zelda and wildly use smashes trying to rush people down with zelda. it just doesn't work like that. It's literally is like trying to win a match with samus having never played her. My zelda is much more competent now and much more patient, she doesn't gain damage horribly quickly or cost me stocks.

I mentioned this in the tier list thread awhile ago, but Zelda's actually a decent defensive character with a problem: making a character approach. Sheik can gain a lead like no other (except maybe falco or ICs w/ a grab lol), and with a good lead, often times stacking Zelda's one move with a defensive attitude, you can play for a kill without losing too much. The main problem is when Zelda goes offstage, then you're screwed in this aspect.

In other words, Zelda can yield results as a defensive character, which happens when you get a significant lead on another character. However with characters that are much safer in options in the first place (MK is glaringly obvious), it's usually better to stick with sheik, especially when sheik already has a really good kill option when mastered (air release -> DACUS)

the thing that makes me sad is when she's offstage and when she's trying to get off the ledge. Her options/characteristics in both are pretty meh.

 

[Renki]

Sorry for coming off as rude Browny, and I understand what you're saying. I'm actually fairly conservative when it comes to Sheik's matchups and stuff. If you're going by just S-B tier, I believe it's kind of like this for Sheik(imo):

Slight Disadvantage - Snake, Diddy, Wario, D3
Disadvantage - MK, ICs, Marth, Pika, Lucario
Even - Falco, Olimar, G-Dub

Unfortunately, there aren't any high level Sheik vids to really prove any of this(as their really aren't any 'high' level Sheiks available imho.) As you can see, Sheik has her fair share of bad matchups, so please understand that I'm not saying she's anything amazing or whatever, lol. She is better however than a lot of people give her credit. :\

 

[Judo777]

lol renki, it just bugs me because most mid-low tier character have gone through a phase where they believe that they go even with or are only slightly disadvantaged to MK/Snake. From jiggs to samus, sheik and bowser, practically the only LT characters Ive seen who dont claim this are ganon, ness and lucas. Except those are all merely phases... since then, every single mid tier and lower character has accepted they get brutalised by the top tier characters yet only 1 character still claims to do very well against them; Sheik. But why doesnt she have the results and I cant see any videos to prove it?

:/

Maybe she actually does do as well as they say sheik isn't like alot of characters. Sheik does a whole lot better on top tier than she does on high tier. Sheik does very well against snake, diddy, falco, and marth and such. It may not be in her favor but its fairly even. The problem is that most of her very difficult MU's come from High tiers with pika, kirby, lucario, (IC's aside who **** her hard imo) and she also has trouble with alot of characters from the mid tier like luigi, peach, and even low tiers like ike, yoshi and zelda dont get beat too badly by her. Why is it unreasonable to believe that some characters exist that dont follow the general trend of MU's (ie they tend to do worse as the tier list progresses)?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I think we could rank sheik/zelda as one character as well.

Her worst match-up is prolly Ice Climbers althought I've heard zelda does kinda well vs them, so maybe she can work it out changing.

What the real inferno says about loading time is really true and it changes between wiis. Edu, a sheik/zelda player from spain, is really sensitive to lag and sometimes has even quit the game in tourneys because he wasn't allowed to play in other wiis. There are wiis ( I saw a lot at BBI, where he did that) that don't work very well and it could take like a minute to load the match from the stage selection screen ( crazy, I even had to wait 2 mins for the game to start in one tourney match). This affects sheik's transformation to insane's amount of times while other things like usb loaders make it faster. There's also pausing so the game loads the other char faster, all of this because of not loading both chars at the start of the match lol. I've seen him kill someone from the top, transform and still get a full charged fsmash, so stupid xD.

wow!! i never knew this had such a n impact on transform...thanks so much for explaining this...wow so gay

what could possibly cause..such inconsistency...?

 

[riocosta123]

I actually think Sheik's problem is that she is vulnerable at virtually every level of the tier list. It's kind of weird, but she does as well in the high tier as she does in every other tier. Which is kind of good and also kind of bad.

Sure, MK/pika/ics are hard but so are peach/lucario/kirby/ROB. Even in the low tiers Mario/Ness/Jiggs give us way more trouble than they should. Not saying those last characters beat us, but compared to other mid/high tier characters that soundly **** those below them, those MUs are closer than they are for most.

Sheik's ability to stay close with most people is kind of a double-edged sword (recall how many stories we have heard of Sheiks ALMOST beating really good players).

 

[<π]

I have beat a lot of good players with sheik... and tons of worse characters. Sheik is a demon no one plays her in easy regions though.

I'm maining samus now though... it's up to you guys~

 

[_Azure_]

Sheik ****ing sucks.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Yall *****s is ignorant

 

[Tewx2]

ITT: 4 pages of the BBR not knowing what its talking about, then 2 pages of Sheik mains correcting it.

I just felt like I should point that out.

 

[Shaya]

ITT: 4 pages of the BBR not knowing what its talking about, then 2 pages of Sheik mains correcting it.

I just felt like I should point that out.

BBR trolling troll is trolling.
gtfo of here with that crap

You didn't even read the topic, did you? lol
I hardly see any "correcting" at all.

 

[napZzz]

BBR trolling troll is trolling.
gtfo of here with that crap

for a mod alot of your posts are pretty angry and worthless from what i've seen

sheik has some potential to stay on track with the thread and I feel she's more under rated than people think

 

[Tewx2]

BBR trolling troll is trolling.
gtfo of here with that crap

You didn't even read the topic, did you? lol
I hardly see any "correcting" at all.

Are you an idiot? Or just unable to read?

The topic is Discussion of Sheik, and 90% of what was "Discussed" before page 4 was heavily inaccurate, and "discussed" by people who have no real knowledge of the character.

I say 90 because Ankoku was posting and he actually knows stuff about Sheik.

Also you see hardly any correcting, which means you see some correcting, so why call me out on being correct? Genius. Most of the stuff that wasn't corrected, was because there were about 3 pages full of long *** posts that didn't have correct info. Correcting all of that would be a waste of time that would have easily been avoided if you had just come to the Sheik mains themselves.

Incompetent BBR member is incompetant
gtfo of here with your internet ego

 

[Shaya]

"Anger" would stem from people who go out of their way to troll; or instead of being constructive do... what tewx2 just did...
These topics are made to educate and discuss; we actually want to learn more about the character.
but if you're just gonna be like "lol everythings wrong, ubad"... then what's the point?

"hardly see any correcting",
if you could call correcting "I think Sheik doesn't do too well against X", "Nah I don't think its that bad" (i.e. an opinion) is out-right correcting, then there's the "hardly" part.

But if you think we make these topics so its us telling you what your character can do, that's wrong. So if you care about your character
"easily been avoided if you had just come to the Sheik mains themselves." which would imply you do, you would actually be actively participating instead of trolling.
because this topic is exactly what you just asked for.

But I assume there's some anti-BBR bias from you, so this post was useless. If we said something here that was wrong, Ankoku would have corrected us. I talk regularly with <3 and he cares a lot about this character, and I respect his opinion, and I don't see him "correcting" us. I can't respect the opinion of someone who wants to be rude for the sake of it.

 

[Laem]

dayummmmm sheik mains they be mad

 

[Judo777]

Are you an idiot? Or just unable to read?

The topic is Discussion of Sheik, and 90% of what was "Discussed" before page 4 was heavily inaccurate, and "discussed" by people who have no real knowledge of the character.

I say 90 because Ankoku was posting and he actually knows stuff about Sheik.

Also you see hardly any correcting, which means you see some correcting, so why call me out on being correct? Genius. Most of the stuff that wasn't corrected, was because there were about 3 pages full of long *** posts that didn't have correct info. Correcting all of that would be a waste of time that would have easily been avoided if you had just come to the Sheik mains themselves.

Incompetent BBR member is incompetant
gtfo of here with your internet ego

Don't be surprised its not like their doing something wrong they just don't know about a hardly played char. And don't be mad or smart elic (think i butchered it but you get my drift) cause that just makes you look dumb. Just try and work with them.

 

[Zankoku]

I didn't see too much wrong with what was posted by the BBR, other than a few differing beliefs on how Sheik should be played and how some of her high tier matchups go, but those tended to be playstyle bias (which occurs frequently between <3 and I as well) and different perspectives from the other side of the matchup, respectively.

 

[B.A.M.]

lol get owned tewx2.

Sheik is definitely underrated. Loads of actual true combos and great frame traps. Also has one amazing kill setup in ftilt>usmash and the awesome surprise in Dacus. TBH, i really believe as a player the only thing thats holding her back is consistency, as she is a character that if u mess a couple times ur done. She hates coin flip situations for this reason. I believe that Sheik as a character has a very bright future ahead of her as people cast the difficulty aside whether its regarding decay memorization or Bdacus out of moves for guaranteed damage. Once this occurs, she will dominate a ton of characters.

I mean how many times have you heard of a good player pick up sheik and ****. Then they end up stopping the majority of the time due to consistency issues. On paper this is a brilliant character, however as people, we havent gotten to that point yet. More representation needs to occur, then one person will emerge to showcase this character true potential or at least point the community in the proper direction.

To me Sheik currently embodies why people fail in brawl (especially vs MK) ; proper execution. Our communities as a whole are lacking it.

 

[Judo777]

lol get owned tewx2.

Sheik is definitely underrated. Loads of actual true combos and great frame traps. Also has one amazing kill setup in ftilt>usmash and the awesome surprise in Dacus. TBH, i really believe as a player the only thing thats holding her back is consistency, as she is a character that if u mess a couple times ur done. She hates coin flip situations for this reason. I believe that Sheik as a character has a very bright future ahead of her as people cast the difficulty aside whether its regarding decay memorization or Bdacus out of moves for guaranteed damage. Once this occurs, she will dominate a ton of characters.

I mean how many times have you heard of a good player pick up sheik and ****. Then they end up stopping the majority of the time due to consistency issues. On paper this is a brilliant character, however as people, we havent gotten to that point yet. More representation needs to occur, then one person will emerge to showcase this character true potential or at least point the community in the proper direction.

To me Sheik currently embodies why people fail in brawl (especially vs MK) ; proper execution. Our communities as a whole are lacking it.

I agree. Except Bdacus for sheik isn't really worth it IMO we can real DACUS. lol

 

[riocosta123]

I think DACUS is pretty overrated in terms of how effective it is. You might get an extra one or two upsmashes a set because of it, but it's not like it radically changes any matchups other than maybe MK or against opponents that don't realize not to randomly mash out of grabs.

 

[Judo777]

I think DACUS is pretty overrated in terms of how effective it is. You might get an extra one or two upsmashes a set because of it, but it's not like it radically changes any matchups other than maybe MK or against opponents that don't realize not to randomly mash out of grabs.

Its gives sheik on of the best punishes in the game. I think its very good cause u can combo into at low percents and even kill ppl for psing long moves like marth fsmash.

 

[Shaya]

Someone should do a video of sheik's bdacus with the hitbox data.
It would be interesting to see how far from her initial position is a hitbox actually out for, and of course how much "range" the hitbox actually has during the duration.

From seeing Falco's usage of the BDacus, the amount of range it covers is ridiculous... It's an amazing spacing tool in itself that covers everything his side b would but at twice the speed and is a kill move...

 

[<π]

sheik's Bdacus is really bad. Less distance traveled than her dash usmash I think...

http://www.youtube.com/user/innocentroads#p/a/u/1/m-89ZqQOGSo