BBR Weekly Character Discussion #34: Zelda

[Marc]

 

[The Real Inferno]

You're welcome.

Zelda would like an approach, please. She can at least shield poke some characters easily, but generally she isn't very safe against shields in most instances. She's got some great kill powers, good options for punishing air and spot dodges, but her options against shielding just lack so much. Her recovery is of course absolutely horrid and makes it very difficult to recover against almost every character. I don't really feel she belongs in bottom tier. Low tier seems about right for now, but Bottom? Really? She's THAT bad? Move her up one or two spots or something, it just feels wrong to have her down there. I have trouble justifying why she should move up though. Darkmusician, help me out here or something, prove whyt his character isn't complete trash and I'm not just crazy.

 

[Red Arremer]

Zelda's strength is, basically, her well... strength. Fufufu.
Her sparklies have disjointed hitboxes, as far as I know.

Now, her mobility and move speed are horrid, her recovery plainly sucks, she can't approach, she has the worst non-tether grab in the game hands down, and she has trouble responding to shield pressure and handing out shield pressure. She also has trouble zoning it seems to me.
Oh, and she has a reflector that comes out so slow that you hardly will reflect anything with it, and her projectile is so predictable and slow, that it is hardly useful. It's the most situational projectile in the game, hell, Luigi's fireball is more useful than Din's Fire, and that's pretty sad.

She is actually designed to go with Sheik, Sheik being the damage racker and Zelda finishing off, but unfortunately, that didn't go too well. However, using Sheik and then switching to Zelda to finish off as a Zelda player is most of the time the best idea because Zelda's kill moves will most likely become stale if you use her, but if you use Sheik, Zelda's kill moves will be fresh.

That being said, chaingrabbers have trouble CGing her. And she does have a lot of power and can rack damage and kill off her enemies easily - if she hits. The hitting itself is her main weakness, though.

I'm not sure about her position. It seems right to me for her being among the worst 5 characters, though.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I honestly think she is 2nd worst.

She has no approach or projectile, her reflector is EXTREMELY laggy and punishable, her recovery is balls, she isn't heavy, her grab is the slowest non-tether (With bad throws to make it even worse), and her ground speed is horrible.

As a +, she is very good at punishing Air dodges...but her punishes (F and U-smash) can be SDI'd out of. Uair and D-smash are her 2 most viable kill moves. Uair is an airdodge punisher that will kill <100% from the height in between the BF platforms (Top and side), and her D-smash sends people at a wicked angle. However, she doesn't have ledge-pressure, nor does she have any type of edgeguarding game. Din's Fire isn't even a good egeguarding projecitle despite it being able to (Basically) home in to your opponent.

She has very few match-ups in her favor (Maybe bowser and G-dorf), and goes even at best with a lot of low tiers. She is just...terrible...

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I definitely wouldn't say that Din's Fire is worse than Luigi's Fireballs. That's kinda pushin it, lol. I've known Sheik players to use Zelda in a few situations, either against characters that Sheik has problems killing (such as DDD, who Zelda has an easy time killing), or characters that dominate Sheik up until a certain percent (mainly Pikachu).

But anyways, Zelda's matchups are definitely too good for her to be bottom tier. She definitely should be low, but bottom is really pushing it. Granted though, these are only matchups where she "does well". She has very few matchups in her favor. Her approach options are indeed horrid, but she has several legitimate tools when she's in (Up Smash, Down Smash, DOWN TILT). It's just a chore for her to get in, but that can be said about much of the low tiers.

 

[Red Arremer]

I definitely wouldn't say that Din's Fire is worse than Luigi's Fireballs. That's kinda pushin it, lol.

Well you got to admit though that they're pretty close.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't think this is even a character so I'm not sure it qualifies for a weekly character discussion. Zelda & Sheik is mid tier and should be the only representation of Zelda & Sheik on the next tier list.

For singles, the Zelda half of Zelda & Sheik is pretty terrible and not really worth talking about other than situational use as a kill move, but IMO Zelda is the stronger half in doubles. Din's Fire can be used to make so many frame traps with a proper teammate and is a pretty high damage energy projectile. She can just kinda throw out stuff like usmashes to support a more aggressive partner who is forcing the opponents into it.

 

[Pierce7d]

I also used to horrribly underrate Luigi's fireballs. Din's Fire is worse, but has some application. Both of these moves are better than PK Flash. Luigi's Fireballs are better than PK Flash and PK Freeze, but PK Freeze is arguably better than Din's Fire.

Zelda's seems to have strengths lying in her defense, but they're false. Making consecutive hard reads to deal massive damage seems to be the most successful way I've found to play this character.

 

[gallax]

Zelda is garb unless used accordingly with sheik. Then shes a deal0breaker cuz switching refreshes moves!!!

Def bottom tier.

 

[Praxis]

Peach's nair clanks with Zelda's fireballs. xD such a bad projectile. It helps your opponent recover, too.

But her down-B is one of the best moves in the game, it makes her rise in the tier list.

 

[Pierce7d]

Peach's Nair clanks with Mario's Fireballs too, and T-Jolt. Being able to clash with a projectile doesn't make it bad.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Zelda zelda zelda.
My god I thought Malcolm was only exaggerating on her bad qualities but, they're just so bad.
She has very poor approaching ability, poor defensive ability, poor recovery, a terrible projectile (better than luigi's IMO. She is basically just built to have only KO ability, which truly is a hindrance because even if she does use Sheik to rack up damage, how will you land a KO on someone you cannot approach? let alone pressure? Or how easily things can be turned around?

I do share the idea that she seems to be better than 2nd worst, I honestly do not know why.

Edit: It doesn't make it bad but it certainly hurts the purpose of the projectile and makes it easier to get in.

 

[GimR]

She's pretty bad.


She's like snake where she needs to play her game on the ground, being in the air is never a good option for her. IF you stay on the groud and space f-smashes that's all you really have.

Her recovery is horrible.


All she really has is a F-Smash that has no lag at the end of it.


We should really consider having Zelda/Sheik as one character also because using them as a team can totally change their place on the tier list together.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That is true, and I do think as it stands, the metagame has evolved towards the usage of both rather than simply using one or the other.
Perhaps we should halt hi discussion and instead discuss both characters at once?

 

[Marc]

No, Sheik already had her turn.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Zelda is decent but the recovery totally ruins the character. If she recovered like, say, Pikachu, she'd be mid tier. Her actual moves are ok but she just is a sitting duck in recovery and gets juggled super easy. Offensively she's decent but defensively she just stands no chance.

Din's fire is better than PK freeze and flash because she can use it to help her recover horizontally. PK flash is like totally useless.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Maybe we could just bring that up as one of the first things during the tier voting if we should pair them or not

 

[MetalMusicMan]

We should really consider having Zelda/Sheik as one character also because using them as a team can totally change their place on the tier list together.

I agree with this. There's no reason to separate them, we don't separate Pokemon Trainer and we shouldn't separate Zelda/Sheik. We only separate ZSS/Samus because it's a one-way transformation.



Overall, I think Zelda is definitely one of the worst characters in the game. She has good kill power and some interestingly high damage / high shield-poke multi-hit moves that are decent punishes, though. I think her killpower could definitely aid Sheik players, but on her own, she struggles.

I play against a Zelda player named Fuujin who I've seen give trouble to or beat a number of the good players from STL during practice sessions. Most of that is because he is a good player and gets good reads and not because of Zelda, but it proves that she can have some success if the opponent doesn't know the matchup (which they likely won't).

Even if the opponent knows the matchup, her side-B and neutral-B are decent moves and can be used fairly effectively to agitate opponents into approaching. She often gets out-camped by good ranged characters, though, which is where her issues with approaching really come out.

Also, iirc, her grab is extremely slow, so much that she can rarely even get a shield grab. Does anyone have the comparative frame data on this?

By herself, Zelda is most likely one of the worst in the game. Combined with Sheik, as she should be, she would probably give a slight boost to Sheik's current placing.

 

[NickRiddle]

Zelda is terrible.
One of the worst recoveries in the game.
Her projectile clashes with, IIRC, every move in the game. (Like MK's Glide-Attack.)
Her smashes are commonly SDIed.
Her only reliable kill move is d-smash, which will likely be diminished due to how good it is overall.

It's like, if she had a landing option, a slightly better recovery, and a kill move, she'd move up to low tier.
But she doesn't.

She also has the slowest non-tether grab in the game, and it doesn't even have the biggest hitbox. (Which is really stupid.)

 

[Darkmusician]

Zelda hmm...

Zelda is a character that has not much to rely other than out smarting and out spacing to win. She's tall, slow and light. She also depends heavily on the other player having little to no knowledge on her (and smash in general for that matter lol) Honestly even if you don't know how to fight Zelda as a character, if you can space, bait and camp even remotely well you'll pretty much figure out the rest as you go. And then once they understand the match up it gets pretty free.

Zelda is pretty slow on the ground even when running. I think her run might be as slow as DDDs walk but I'm not sure. It's one of the worst speeds in the game though. I suggest walking and jumping most of the time. Or if anything use short dashes to move in and out of certain ranges.

Her moves in general are slow as well. Her down smash is probably her best get off me move next to maybe neutral B which I'll get into later. However down smash is best saved as a kill move and it's still easy to bait/out space so I don't recommend spamming it. Her grabs are frustratingly slow and not as big as they should be. Easily stuffed by good jabs or tilts. Even if her kicks are not that slow in coming out it freezes on the sweet spot and anyone should be able to react to it and DI once hit. Kicks can kill some characters really early but unless they're way off stage or something with proper DI/reaction kicks should be lived well through mid percents most of the time even when fresh.

I don't pretend that Zelda's kill power makes her good. In fact it just makes her more predictable and limited because the opponent usually knows what she's going to go for most of the time. Up airs are easily avoided (even by other Zeldas). I used to Zelda ditto choke(plenty) times back in the day and even with Hawaii wifi lag up airs were no problem getting around. Not that fast, not that big of a bit box and the active frames should be (but they're not) longer. There are some situational traps with up air like vs a snake up b or if you bait the airdodge or ledge/platform drop to up air, but these will usually be few and far in between and will probably only work the first few times. Aside from nailing snakes with it I barely get to use up air successfully except for the occasional shield to platform drop to up air. If you however you do manage to snipe somebody near the top of the stage it's fresh knock back should not be underestimated. Dair is good for reading jumps at you in the air or for obvious edge guard reasons, but when baited it really not worth it most of the time.

Her up smash is best used only at low percent to build damage and then at high percent to kill/respawn kill. Most characters are able to jump away from a 2nd up smash at low damage. Some characters have other options like Snake (pull a nade) , but I would usually just up smash again anyway because I'd rather get more damage on snake and then try to follow afterwards for more possible damage. Other than those two situations I am very conservative with up smash as it is highly punishable on whiff or block.

F-smash is what most Zeldas will spam (if they're not spamming Dins) and is generally referred to as a "spacing tool" of sorts. Especially when they start losing/falling behind. I don't really find it good for spacing much anymore against most of the cast. On stage from a neutral position the f-smash doesn't really threaten anyone. Just don't slam into Zelda over and over and the f-smash won't be a problem. SDI really hurts this move. Like Zelda's kicks even when you get bit by it, the move gives you more than enough time to react and escape it. Zelda does get some drawback from the smash but it's nothing compared to others (Sonic, Bowser, Yoshi).

Zelda's tilts have their uses. Up tilt is used less frequently than smash and air so it can often surprise. Up tilt is useful for hitting Falco out of illusion recovery and it's not difficult to time since even a trade is good for Zelda. I prefer to use the back end as opposed to the start up portion. I recommend turing your back to the opponent when up tilting because you get better coverage. Forward tilt has decent speed and range. It can be tilted up and down to adjust for character specific spacing and since it only hits once there is a greater chance of the opponent missing the DI and at low damage you might get a follow up option like neutral air or up smash. Down tilt is Zelda's most popular tilt and another move that I see used incorrectly. Down tilt is best when used at the mid percents where she actually has frame advantage and can follow up. Using d-tilt at zero is frame disadvantage for Zelda barring a trip. The tilt lock can be SDI and at higher percents it'll just pop you into the air and Zelda can't do much after that. Marth can actually retaliate with Up B when popped up. If the down tilt does trip, it's best to follow up with a grab after the d tilt trip instead of wasting a down smash. It'll only lead to an edge guard that Zelda is too slow to follow up on unless she's already at the ledge. Down tilt can also be used as a psychic poke against characters that dash in fast (snake dacus etc) and it's a good Zelda move for feeling out your opponent once they're past low percents.

Zelda's throws do decent damage. The follow ups on down throw can be avoided sadly. However if you throw enough people enough times you'll learn to train your eyes to follow where they DI and when a follow up is possible. Zelda's throws usually do best at low percent because the opponent usually stays close to Zelda and she can attempt to mixup.

Din's Fire is not so great. It's big but telegraphed. Din's fire on stage doesn't really pressure anyone to approach and is one of the easiest ways to punish Zelda early on because it lags so much after the move is done. If anything it's best used when the opponent is recovering off stage to force them into a position that Zelda can work with. Short Din's can also be used to spook recovering players into air dodging early and can possibly set up for better positioning for Zelda especially if the character has no jumps left. Other than that Din's is good for punishing auto pilot recovery. i.e. Snakes that up b really high or MKs that always go into a glide.
If I ever use it onstage I only will attempt it once in a while and at a considerable distance from the opponent. Best advice I can give is to vary the timing of it and try to take advantage of it's size hitting the opponent with the very edge of it's hit box as players will underestimate it's reach at times.

Zelda's up b recovery is a joke. It's slow on start up (easy to get hit out of before you vanish) and although people claim there are so many direction you can go with, the truth is if you play against Zelda enough you'll know almost immediately where Zelda will end up when she's forced to use that move. Mixing up when and where offstage she uses it is the best way to survive with that move, but most of the times it doesn't matter as most of your options will be covered anyway. Oh well, at least it has fire now and your tag disappears with it.

Neutral B is better used for the invincibility frames and the hit box of the move rather than the reflector properties. It's a decent option for landing and regaining your footing and can pull people from behind you and bring them in front of you. At the edge it's good against players that air dodge back on to the stage behind you afraid of a possible smash. But like many of her moves it can be baited and if they block it you will get cracked afterwards. Knowing when and when not to use it comes down to instinct and experience.

Stage wise preference for me Zelda probably performs best on BF. I like the platforms, it's nice and flat, and it's a good size such that the opponent has less room to work with. CP stages are kinda meh for her since most other characters will out perform her on them anyway. That and Zelda does better when she doesn't have to worry about moving stages, slopes and tilts on the ground and or stage hazards since most of her kill moves take a lot of setting up and trickery to pull off and you don't want "stuff" happening.

Tier list wise for all these reason (and more) she's low tier material. (Def not border line or higher) Is she bottom 3? Probably not but she might as well be.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Zelda is... well. If she's used alongside Sheik, yeah, she definitely will help her transformation, as well as vice-versa. On her own as is, she's definitely low-tier. Bottom tier, I'm none too sure, but she is NOT ever going into mid-tier on her own. Ever.

Her tilts are varied. Ftilt can combo at low percents into an usmash and can be angled to shield poke, but lunges her whole body forward. Utilt takes forever, but it has a surprising amount of power behind it. Dtilt is by far her best tilt, as she can use it to spike, trip, and lock people. If she reads DI right, too, she could even get a kick off of it, but if she's feeling more safe, she can just dsmash.

Her aerials would be better if l-canceling was still in the game, period. Her uair finally has a use and is SCARY powerful, but it'll only hit if the person has bad recovery options or if she baits an airdodge. Dair now has heightened power, but if she misses/hits with the sourspot, she's in trouble. Her kicks are VERY powerful, but since she has to hit them just right, it requires really good spacing and often times reading. On the plus side, her aerial mobility is surprisingly high, so it might be an interesting alternative to jump to follow or get away if she's far enough away and isn't facing a speedy opponent.

Nair is lovely. It's disjointed, shieldpokes, and can combo. If Zelda lands right, the opponent is locked in hitstun and she can then do a follow-up, even into higher percents. If she doesn't, they pop up into the air and Zelda can't do anything. If your opponent happens to be in their shield, it's the safest aerial to do since it also autocancels easily on landing. But this requires them to not try to hit Zelda with their disjointedness.

Her grab sucks. Badly. Why they didn't speed it up is beyond me. You're most likely better off replacing every grab with a pivot grab because there's no real difference in its speed and it gives more range to boot. If you happen to ever grab, though? Her dthrow can lead to some follow-ups at low percents, and uthrow puts them above Zelda, which is a bad spot to be(since above her is her strongest position). Bthrow is her best killing throw, but don't expect it to outside of bad DI. Fthrow is forgettable, and only good for getting someone off the stage.

Specials, we've talked about 'em. Nayru's can have bucket properties or give her b-stick properties if you do it right, but doing it wrong winds up giving a Din's which will get you killed. It also has some invincibility frames, which can help counter some attacks, but the risk is not really worth the reward. Din's isn't good except for an occasional poke or for off-stage harassment, or in the rare case that she actually is facing someone without a better projectile. Even then, using it sparingly would be the best route. Down B makes her henshin into a ninja, and that's always nice.

Farore's... makes me want to scream. I don't know why they made it WORSE from Melee, making it a chore to actually grab the ledge while almost every other character can latch onto it. This makes it stupid easy to edgeguard her, and really the only reason she isn't is either you made a mistake or she just never had to use her up B in the first place. The flames that surround her when she reappears aren't even that scary.

Jab is... weird. It's slow, yes, but it also has a surprising amount of disjoint, and I'm not sure why but it seems to force a hard landing at lower percents. If someone can test that out, it'd be appreciated. It also can supposedly knock MK out of his tornado? Why you'd do this over fsmash is beyond me, but eh, it's there. Dash attack is okay, but highly punishable on shield and never really that powerful. The weak hit does seem to hit more horizontal than vertical, though.

All of this adds up to a sure-fire low tier character that can bring a good competition to low-tier tournaments. When it comes to anything higher than that, though, it's no wonder why she has one of the lowest representation of all the characters(she's tied to a ninja... there's no competing with a ninja). Her defensive game is very good, but her approach is just awful. Her best range, though, is midrange, so if she can at least keep the fight there then not all hope is necessarily lost. The only reason she'll be able to compete at all is if she at least trades a powerful hit with her opponent and forced them to approach her. Zelda, for her best description, is a precision mind-game character, and the better the player can get a read on what you're doing, the better she'll do. Otherwise, she's just going to fall apart.

EDIT: Plenty of this was ninja'd by DM, but it's okies. His is more in-depth, anyway, and this is what happens when I have to go afk for a long time before I'm done. ^_^;

 

[Shaya]

Is she bottom tier or not?

We have ganondorf, which is most definitely the worst character in the game. But is the difference so noticeable. Many people call GDorf for his own tier; you may be able to argue that it is more of a correct move than otherwise.

Personally, I think she is worse than Link.
And even though last tier list we had people undermine us because "lol triforce tier", I and many others in the BBR felt it was a correct choice.

She has spammable smash attacks. But look where that sent G&W.
Her din's fire is at best useful against ROB (loool).

What defines her bottom tier position is:
1. Weak out of shield options:
- This may sound odd for Zelda, and it was early on in the game but,
She has a grab that comes out slower than like... Olimar ("no one knew"?)
And her up smash comes out on frame 5, which is a pretty good oos option.
Unlike Link and Ganon though her shield drop moves are not terrible in terms of start up (dash attack (I think?), dsmash).
It's just she has absolutely no coverage of anything from her knees to her head. Which is primarily where most characters are pressuring from (the air); this is because her aerials are terrible.

Over all she has extremely weak oos options that many characters can pressure freely.
(Yoshi Syndrome)

She has magical "Roy Syndrome"; which is her moves are punished for actually hitting you. Fair, bair and reasonable SDI on her fsmash, nair and reflector. I believe her dtilt at low percent is marred by such an issue too.

Her upsmash is very hard to SDI out of, I've done it like maybe 6 times in my brawl career; from what I understand, the more you spam it, the closer it gets to impossible to sdi (hits that do less than 1% damage aren't SDIable or something? her individual hits of usmash get to that point after staling).

She lacks killing set ups or options that even Link and Ganondorf can somewhat boast. Link with a slew of over 9000 locks, and ganondorf having side b, and the sheer power of moves such as down air (as in a strong "usable" move from below you is something most characters LACK) and dash attack covering great amount of rage.

Jab is pretty bad (may be wrong, but I don't think she has "anything" special out of it like other characters do, i.e. grabs, other moves).

Over all I think she still deserves bottom tier, as long as it includes more than just ganondorf... But on a theory level I don't see them being that far apart. Yes Ganondorf has unwinnable match ups across the board, but realistically in a tournament setting, so does Zelda.

 

[Crow!]

Zelda is a super-linear character with low mobility and low weight. She is a large target, and a lot of her moves are theoretically almost useless if the opponent is sufficiently good at SDI. Her grab is slow. Her aireals are extremely inflexible (yeah, they're strong, but only if the opponent blunders into one of four very specific points in space, apart from NAir, which theoretically should be SDI-ed and then punished). Oh, and DAir isn't even allowed to score its strong hit on a grounded target.

What she's left with is.. uh... DTilt >> DSmash? Mediocre UTilt, FTilt, and Dash Attack?

Yeah, this character is a failure. Bottom tier. On paper not as bad as Ganon (DSmash alone is probably better than all of Ganon's options combined, staling aside), but in practice probably even less likely to win you a tournament.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

There's a Zelda in my region who enters doubles exclusively, so I feel comfortable at least commenting on how she performs in 2v2. She can be legitimately scary if she's partnered with someone who is

1. Well-versed in teaming with a Zelda
2. Above average in being the aggressive teammate
3. Using a character that has an aerial that clashes with Din's Fire and is otherwise good.

Riot and Peachkid consistently get at least 3rd in New England by using Zelda and Peach, respectively, and it's honestly a really scary team. The only teams here that seem to beat them regularly are Fatal+Koolaid and Me+(whoever I feel like teaming with), yet they still manage to cause a scare whenever they play either of those teams. I wasn't sure how they'd perform out of region, but they did really well at APEX (13th, lost to Kel+YbM and myself+Koolaid in losers, beat Chibo+Fino and GDX+Nicole along the way), even beating Dmbrandon+Ksizzle in pools...double Meta Knight. 4-stocking them on Rainbow Cruise, even. It was unfortunate they had to meet up with another New England team in losers, but that's how it's gonna be sometimes.

Yeah she's really bad in singles but in doubles...she's good in gimmick teams?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I agree that she's actually quite decent in Teams. With the help of a partner, her damage racking and killpower can be surprisingly devastating.

 

[TheTantalus]

Zelda actually has like 3 matchups she wins, one of those I believe to be rob. This immediately makes her more useful than link, who only beats like Ganon/Falcon/Yoshi

 

[Cyphus]

zelda is bottom tier.
din's fire is a joke. Luigi's fireball is much better (u can actually follow up from it, especially from the edge)
just camp zelda and dodge din's fire. what she gonna do? lol
yea a smart zelda player will beat someone who underestimates/unfamiliar w/ the matchup, but she really has NOTHING abusable if the oponent can play defensive against her. she's just too ****ing slow, punishable, and 1-dimensional. It takes a very special player to mixup her options effectively enough to win, but again...if you just dont run into her stuff, you can react to her approaches very easily. going even in a few matchups, and even if she was only slightly disadvantaged in the rest = bottom tier. you have to actually be decent in MOST matchups just to be low tier.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Luigi's fireball can get snake Fair'd into Luigi getting spiked :D

Din's fire can too....it is a sad day in the realm of projectiles.

 

[Pierce7d]

The hitbox on Din's grows, hence making it sometimes tricky to airdodge. You can overshoot your opponent massively. It's not that good, but not so terrible if you learn a few tricks with it. On a side note, PK Freeze is pretty good, people just don't know.

Zelda's Dash attack is frame 5. Excellent, underrated move. Leads into a nice follow-up because it lets you mix up into:

Another Dash Attack
Dash Grab
Whatever move you want to use to punish Spot dodge.

Uair is good for destroying people who jump back into the stage after getting hit lightly off. I also often use it off a platform drop.

Zelda has the third slowest Dash AND Run, and fourth slowest Walk. She's also overall one of the slowest fallers in the game in pretty much every category. I mostly jump with Zelda since her aerial mobility is tied with several other characters for fourth highest in the game. Higher than Puff actually. Her max speed in the air is nothing special, but she's decent at weaving. SHADing into Fsmashes and tilts, and using random Dash Attacks into attack strings using hard reads is the best I can get. And the occasional roll against an opponent who like to counter zone against Zelda.

She deals good damage on landing a hit, but getting in and landing the hit over and over is tricky.

Dair is really good. It has a really long lasting hitbox, and you can just throw it out there against a lot of characters. Even if it doesn't sweet spot, it completely wrecks some of the worse vertical recoveries, and sometimes you can risk a footstool or Nayru's after. Be careful if you're going to try edgeguarding with Zelda though. It's risky stuff.

All and all, she's pretty bad. She rewards hard reads, and perfection, but at higher levels it's unlikely you're going to be able to completely read your opponent at every turn, and her aerials are crap for defense. Coupling that with slow falling speed, and you find that this character suffers from Snake Syndrome: Easily juggled, and no real aerial options.

If only she auto-canceled everything

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How many of the people who think she is 2nd worst have actually played a great Zelda? I think unless you played against Earth or JuJux [I don't know about DM; I never watched his Zelda to be fair] you probably don't know enough about the character to make such a judgment. She is probably a lot better than that.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A lot better? I don't know, but BETTER? yes. she's certainly better than that bad.

However, as said earlier, why not play Zelda/Sheik?

I've been playing Zelda/Sheik for ages because Zelda has some good matchups compared to sheik and sheik has some good matchups compared to zelda. And they also have SOME matchups where it's better to play BOTH of them.

She has a few absolutely terrible matchups, but, outside of game and watch and olimar, she doesn't have any that are unwinnable (though MK and Snake are certainly awful for her). Her DECENT matchups fall at various places in the teir list and she does pretty dang well against the lower teirs. She really should be LOW teir, not bottom for that.

Then again... in a game dominated by sheilds, she has awful options for her sheild and awful options against opopnents sheilds. Finally she is shaky of the stage or in the air (the only places you can't sheild). So she deserves no better than low teir.

Final 2 notes:
-the farther Din's travels, the stronger it becomes and, therefore, the less things can cancel it out.

-I agree with most of what Mikey said, so I don't feel like repeating it.

 

[GodAtHand]

I don't have time to post a huge read through like DM or Mikey right now but DM is saying basically what I would say anyways.

I don't think she deserves to be as low as she is tbh. There are so few Zelda players out there who can give you an accurate feel of the character, so a lot of players may be confused on what she can and can't do.

Zelda in teams is nothing to scoff at though. In singles her main problems are that her recovery is horrid, and she is easily camped and juggled. In doubles all of those problems can be eliminated with the proper teammate, and you are left with a character who can wall with a projectile that (with the right teammate) is friendly-fire off, has mass kill power and now has setups to use those moves more efficiently, and can recover easily with the help her partner as well as help her partner recover in a bad situation or once they are gimped. Since Din's is controllable and continues to max range if she is hit.

If doubles counts on the tier list I think Zelda should be top of low tier. Since I think she is actually one of the better characters in teams if you take the time to learn her style and what style of teammate you need to be. If singles alone is the tier list she shouldn't move up very high I think she is better than jiggz and Samus and most of the other low tiers but not so much anyone higher than that.

 

[Poltergust]

You know, as previous people have said, I think that Zelda should be evaluated alongside Sheik. Together, they make a much better character than being separate.

Although, if we have to only talk about Zelda, she doesn't really do too well on her own, for reasons already said. She's just too slow, and against some characters this can be really devastating (e.g. Olimar).

At the same time, I have a hard time thinking that she's worse than both Jigglypuff and Samus. I don't think that I can come up with anything that would help me prove that, though.

Zelda actually has like 3 matchups she wins, one of those I believe to be rob. This immediately makes her more useful than link, who only beats like Ganon/Falcon/Yoshi

Link beats Yoshi? Since when? >_>

I do think that Zelda may be R.O.B., though. However, since I only secondary Zelda I can't be 100% sure.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wanted to point out:

Her projectile clashes with, IIRC, every move in the game. (Like MK's Glide-Attack.)

MK's Glide Attack can clash out an insane amount of moves. Like, Ike's Fsmash. The list of moves that can do that is tiny. Not the best example to use. >_>

I say throw her in with Sheik tier positioning wise, but allow her to be used solo in low tier tournaments still as you're not forced to switch ever.

 

[NickRiddle]

Wanted to point out:



MK's Glide Attack can clash out an insane amount of moves. Like, Ike's Fsmash. The list of moves that can do that is tiny. Not the best example to use. >_>

I say throw her in with Sheik tier positioning wise, but allow her to be used solo in low tier tournaments still as you're not forced to switch ever.

MK's Glide Attack and Din's Fire both have that same property though. if MK is going for a Glide Attack, it's any move that does more than 2% I think that ties with it. I'm willing to bet it's the same for Din's.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh, thats how that stupid thing works?

That would explain a lot. >_>

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I will try and refrain from making a murder post like I did in the Sheik discussion. DM should be able to cover this but I'll post later. Honestly though, with good DI, Zelda's recovery isn't bad. It'll get ya back to the stage; it may not be safe but it gets ya there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I will try and refrain from making a murder post like I did in the Sheik discussion. DM should be able to cover this but I'll post later. Honestly though, with good DI, Zelda's recovery isn't bad. It'll get ya back to the stage; it may not be safe but it gets ya there.

that much is true. It's impossible to intercept and it covers a long distance. The landing lag isn't even too bad if you can target the ground as opposed to midair.

Farore's is only bad because it's so easily edgehogged and it's very punishable when she has only ONE place she could conceivably recover.

God only knows why it was deemed that this move was solid with all that start-up lag. Then again, maybe sakurai just demanded that Zelda do a sexy dance before she teleport evenm if that makes her recovery suck.

 

[KayLo!]

Honestly though, with good DI, Zelda's recovery isn't bad. It'll get ya back to the stage; it may not be safe but it gets ya there.

If you're taking a ****ton of damage just to get back to the stage, that sounds like a pretty bad recovery to me. ;;

 

[-Mars-]

Worst character in the game.