Data Blathers' Blathers: Villager Hitbox / Frame Data and Other Research

[Indigo Jeans]

Alright so I'm pleased to announce that hitbox data is (mostly) complete. All that's left to do is intangibility/pocketboxes on Pocket Plus and Garden, frame stuff for specials, and adding in FAFs/endlag. I'm also holding off on adding data for the landing hit of trees till I figure out some weird specifics with them better.

 

[Andrew_Ryan]

You planning on getting frame data for everything? I'd really like to know frame data on Super Axe and Counter Axe along with launch differences between them and normal Axe.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

That information is already there, in the "Specials" sheet.

 

[Andrew_Ryan]

That information is already there, in the "Specials" sheet.

I don't see it. Is it something I can see on mobile? I looked under the custom move stuff, but there's a ? next to the custom axes.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Oh, you must be looking at the old data tables. Does an embedded google sheet not show up for you? What phone/OS are you using?

Anyway, Counter axe is active F5-7, and Super axe is active F14-17.

 

[LimitCrown]

For the Lloid Rocket and its customization options, there is another hitbox that occurs whenever the Lloid crashes into a wall. For Lloid Rocket and Liftoff Lloid, that hitbox deals 12% damage; for Pushy Lloid, that hitbox deals 5% damage.

Also, the damage that Pushy Lloid deals when ridden is 1.8% instead of 1.75%.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Ah, so THAT's what those hitboxes I filed under unknown are. I had no idea that stage collision explosions were distinct from entity collision explosions... thank you for the heads up!

How did you figure 1.8% for pushy lloid? I'd imagine it could be done by only hitting with the weak hits, but I haven't found a way to let the target avoid the finishing explosion.

 

[LimitCrown]

Ah, so THAT's what those hitboxes I filed under unknown are. I had no idea that stage collision explosions were distinct from entity collision explosions... thank you for the heads up!

How did you figure 1.8% for pushy lloid? I'd imagine it could be done by only hitting with the weak hits, but I haven't found a way to let the target avoid the finishing explosion.

For each time that the Pushy Lloid's ending explosion hit the target, I subtracted the amount of damage that each explosion dealt from the total amount damage dealt before I determined what the multiplier was.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Huh, I didn't think it would be that simple... idk I always thought for some reason that subtracting integer values from damage that had decimals would screw it up, which is why testing for Deep Breathing stuff has slowed to a halt. I'll take your word for it though!

 

[TM_icecream]

I want to point out that, despite being limited to 3 Pikmin in smash 4, if you pocket one of Olimars pikmin, he can still pull another one

 

[LimitCrown]

I was comparing the knockback dealt by Super Timber and regular Timber's watering cans in order to determine whether the base knockback value affects moves that deal set knockback. It seems that it does affect knockback. However, I am not sure about what exactly causes the watering can hitboxes to collide with other attacks. It may be due to the hitboxes having a weight-based knockback value, knockback scaling, and base knockback, or it may be due another reason.

The watering can hitboxes are able to collide with any attacks that don't have transcendental priority, and they follow the usual rules of priority.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

This is something I've been interested in since the release of the demo; you and I touched on this briefly in Thinkaman's thread.

Watering cans clank with basically everything. I've clanked the first hit of Shulk's DSmash, Lucina's FAir, etc. In addition to this, watering cans detonate standard lloid immediately, something that other pushboxes, such as FLUDD, do not do.

This relationship is what intrigues me the most. What I know is that

-Watering cans are the only set knockback moves that also have a BKB value
-Standard Lloid has about 12% HP
-Standard Lloid is detonated on contact in its active state by any damaging hitbox except for Burst Grenade's setup windboxes, Fox's Blasters, and standard Star Bits. However, Blasters can detonate it if they inflict 12% damage to it, so I'm assuming BG windboxes and Star Bits can do this too
-Standard Lloid is detonated by watering can, but not FLUDD

I can rule out standard Star Bits because they are an exceptionally strange case. They get beaten out by absolutely everything in my experience. It's like they have reverse-transcendent priority. Also of note is that they aren't projectiles. Rather, they're disjoints anchored to Luma's body.

Given what I know about watering cans and Fox's blaster, Lloid should need to interact with a hitbox with a KBG and BKB value in order to be detonated. However, Sun Salutation charging is a non-damaging pushbox that has scaling rather than set knockback, and it does not detonate Lloid.

I don't know where I'm going with this actually. Watering cans are just really odd, because they do clank with any non-transcendent hitbox, regardless of the damage difference that would normally dictate if a hitbox clanks or not

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Okay so a few things

I can confirm that Standard lloid does indeed have exactly 12% HP. I had originally tested with Fox's blaster at 1% range before I knew that it actually deals 1.4%. This time I tested with Heavenly Light, since each hit deals exactly 1% damage, does not have scaling KB, and can hit quickly enough.

I've added in the data for the different trees' grounded hits. For standard and counter, the only thing that changes is damage. All other values stay the same. For super, BKB decreases by ten, KBG increases by ten, and hitlag changes to x1.5.

Speaking of grounded hits, has anyone ever had counter or super's grounded hits connect normally? I can walk into standard's grounded hit consistently when I'm testing, but I have never been able to get hit by counter or super's equivalent. The only time I've been able to do that is from a Pocketed tree, which, by the way, is how I figured out that that mystery unknown super timer hitbox was its grounded hit. I pocketed a super tree, released it, then walked in a little late to get hit by a 34% damage hitbox. Normally, it would display as 51%, since the falling hit is 27% * 1.9. This hit displayed as 34% though. And guess what; 18 * 1.9 is 34.2%!

Anyway where I'm going with this is that maybe counter and super's grounded hits can only occur when unpocketed.

Also I'm thinking that I can deconfirm my previous claim that Pocket also modifies KB values. All watering can water deals the same KB when pocketed as it does when vanilla, in terms of 3DS MLS values anyway. This means that BKB isn't changed, since they do have BKB values. And, I should have realised this earlier, but KBG is unaffected as well since all other WBSKB projectiles still apply the same KB when pocketed as they do when not.

I think that about covers what I wanted to say

 

[LimitCrown]

It's possible for the grounded hits of Counter Timber and Super Timber to connect without needing to pocket the tree. However, the period of time in which that hitbox is active is very short. The timing appears to be very strict, and an opponent would more likely be hit by the falling tree hitbox instead of the grounded hitbox in most cases.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Okay so after LONG and ARDUOUS testing (seriously not having a capture card, not having frame advance, having to CTRL+F for moves with just the right hit frames UGH) I've been able to find out air dodge's intangibility

F3-28 (26F)

Compared to Pocket's intangibility

F5-24 (20F)

I believe @zeezee wanted to know this? A few weeks back? So statistically air dodge is better for avoiding attacks than Pocket, since your intangibility kicks in earlier and lasts longer. Though I don't know what the FAFs for each one are, so that might shake things up. Also Pocket can be BReversed which is definitely something that should be considered.

 

[Player-1]

can you enter pocket from an air dodge with IASA frames?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Hm? What do you mean? You can do any action out of any other action's IASA/FAF. Do you mean like buffering a Pocket out of an air dodge?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

after MORE testing I got intangibility durations for spotdodge, forward roll, backwards roll, and ledge getup. All I'm missing now is ledge roll but I'll do that tomorrow.

all of this was put into a new sheet in the doc. "Dodges and Getup" after "Getup Attacks".

 

[Indigo Jeans]

New things

Standard sapling isn't actually planted until F15. If you get hit during the first 14F of timber's planting animation, the sapling won't be planted.

Counter sapling is planted on F12 (11F startup)

Super sapling is planted on F18 (17F startup)

Edit: All Lloids are true F1 actions

 

[Player-1]

New things

Standard sapling isn't actually planted until F15. If you get hit during the first 14F of timber's planting animation, the sapling won't be planted.

Counter sapling is planted on F12 (11F startup)

Super sapling is planted on F18 (17F startup)

Edit: All Lloids are true F1 actions

Do you have access to frame advance? Any chance on doing an in-depth look at DIRTBUS frame data with a frame by frame gif or something?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I do not have access to frame advance, sadly. I tested this by inputting the Villager action I was testing on the same frame as another action, and changing the other action to have one with different hit-on frames.

So for example, for rolls, I would input the roll and ZSS's jab on the same frame. The jab hit Villager, and since it hits on F1, that means roll intan does not start on F1. I moved along different hit frames (Mario's F2 jab, Villager's F3 jab) until Duck Hunt's F4 jab missed because of the intan.

Since I was using 1/4 Speed (Hold L), this guarantees the actions are entered on the same frame, but that's about all that can be done with surefire accuracy. I lack a capture card so I would be unable to look at DIRTBUS frame by frame

Edit: Let me see if either of my cameras record @60fps. If so I can get a janky frame by frame of DIRTBUS

 

[Deleted member]

Villager is able to pocket diddy's stray up b

 

[Player-1]

@ Indigo Jeans Do you know if a move is stale will that damage be applied to the lloid HP? I remember back when Fire hydrants HP was like 12.5 or something (pre patch) that even if a move is stale if it's done on hydrant it will do constant damage (so pacman bair to hit Hydrant always worked if you sweetspotted it even if the move was stale). Is that the same for Lloid?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Just tested this. Both Lloid and Trees have staleness accounted for when being dealt damage. WFTs fresh FSmash explodes inactive Lloid in one hit (15.5%). When I staled it down to deal 8%, Lloid didnt detonate.

Fresh WFTs DSmash disappears a standard Tree in three hits (10%). Staled down to about 5.25% it took six hits.

Itd be neat if that weren't the case for Lloid. Would make "countering" a lot more stuff a lot more of the time a lot more viable.

 

[Player-1]

Does hitting Lloid and Tree put moves into the stale queue?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Just tested this (its like my new catchphrase today or something). Neither hitting Lloid nor a Tree will alter a move's position in the staleness queue. So if a move was fresh when hitting Lloid/Tree, it will stay fresh. If it was in the second spot in the queue, itll stay in the second spot.

WFTs DSmash displays as 8% on the third use, with the first being fresh. Hitting a Tree twice then hitting a character has the third hit display as 10%, which is its fresh damage.

Same deal with Lloid. A fresh WFT FSmash rounds up to 16% when displaying, and 14% on the second use. Hitting Lloid first then another character still has the second hit display as dealing 16%.

I guess this mechanic is really good for Counter Timber, since you can force a counter without worrying about your slingshots or jab staling.

By the way thanks a ton for asking these questions, they probably would never have crossed my mind!

 

[Volya]

I have the feeling that lloyd's hurtbox appear faster when you hold the button (for ridding it) than a standard lloyd. Any information on that ?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Lloid does indeed become active sooner when riding, though at the moment I have no reliable way of finding out just how many frames sooner.

In other news, I was trying to figure out when you have to get hit while pocketing something in order for it to disappear. You know, sometimes you're pocketing something and you get hit, and it isn't on the field or in your inventory? Well, I had no success with that... though I did find out some other nifty things.

When you are pocketing something right in front of you, your intangibility ends on F8 rather than F24.

Items/projectiles don't enter your inventory until F24. If you get hit between F1-F23 of pocketing, you'll drop it. If you get hit F24-end, it'll still be in your inventory.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Pocket and stale-move negation:

So after doing the Tree/Lloid staleness tests I got to wondering about Pocket and staleness. Around when I first made this thread I said Pocket doesn't stale, but as it turns out I was wrong (which mechanically isn't a good thing...)!

In short

• Pocket ignores the staleness (and freshness) of projectiles. If you Pocket a bowling ball that's been staled down to deal 7%, then it will still deal a displayed 29% with the early hit with a fresh Pocket, rather than 13%/14%
• Pocket itself is affected by staling though. The multiplier stales. It only stales when an unpocketed projectile connects though, so missing with the projectile or missing pocketing a projectile won't stale it.
  • When Pocket is fresh in a match (first use), its multiplier is about ~x1.90449, just slightly greater than the x1.9 baseline. This is mechanically identical to how all other damaging attacks deal x1.05 their base damage in a match when absolutely fresh. I tested this by Pocketing a bowling ball and jumping so that the late (strong) hit would connect, twenty times. During a match, I SDed after each hit to keep pocket fresh, and the target's total damage ended up being 648%. In training (no staling/freshness bonus), it was 646%.
  • On its second use, its multiplier is about ~x1.67 (1.66854)
  • On its third use, its multiplier is about ~x1.53 (1.52809)
  • On its fourth use, its multiplier is about ~x1.4 (1.40449)
• Garden, despite not increasing Pocketed projectiles' damage, still has its "multiplier" stale
  • The "missed pocket" flowering hitbox and the multiplier share the same stale move queue. Connecting with an unpocketed projectile stales the flowering hitbox, and vice-versa

That's actually it for now. I'm going to test for all of the multipliers along the stale move queue (which would be ten for each Pocket), and so it's going to take longer and longer with each spot.

tl;dr clean out your pockets yo, don't let them get all stale and nasty with all the junk you put in them

Update: After more testing (code word for ****ing around) with Garden, it seems that what is happening is that the multiplier for whatever spot in the staleness queue Pocket is currently in is applied in addition to the regular multiplier. So what I said still stands, Pocket ignores the spot in the staleness queue the projectile was in at the time of being Pocketed. Instead, whatever spot Pocket is in at the time of unpocketing is used.

So basically the final damage is

Bd(1.9Q)
for Pocket

BdQ
for Garden

Bd(1.3Q)
for Pocket Plus

Where

Bd = pocketed projectile's base damage
Q = multiplier for whatever spot in the staleness queue Pocket/Garden/Pocket Plus is at the time of unpocketing

Update v2.0: For whatever reason Pocketed (standard) Trees are treated as a distinct attack as far as staling goes. Might be an oversight? It's only standard Trees (I havent tested Counter or Super yet) that are treated as their own attack when Pocketed; all of the rest of Villagers and other characters projectiles when Pocketed count as using Pocket for staleness.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Working on a list of stuff that doesn't OHKO active Lloid while I collect all the customs (nearly there!). So far, in no particular order -

Blaster
Air Shooter (weak hits only?)
Fire Hydrant water
Robo Beam level 0
Hydro Pump, High Capacity Pump, Single Shot Pump
Hyper Voice, Spinphony
Glancing Counter
Heavenly Light, Explosive Flame, Celestial Fireworks (neither setup hit nor explosion)
ZAir, DSmash, Electromagnetic Net
ZAir, (Slip, Mega) Bomb during initial drop
Needle Storm, Burst Grenade windbox
FLUDD
Star Bits
Peanut Popgun peanuts, tossed Bananas (sometimes? velocity dependent?)

 

[SoniCraft]

Good luck in getting all the customs! I myself have completed this task, so if you need me to test anything with them just let me know!

 

[SoniCraft]

Is it possible to find out the soonest possible frame you can spawn another lloid after you have launched one? Also for different situations like letting it blow up on its own, launching it into a blast zone, etc.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

What do you mean? You can't launch another Lloid while you already have one active, but you already know this so that's NOT what you meant... do you mean what the FAF is? Cause for that you'll have to check out Croi's frame data, which has FAFs (though they take hitlag into account and going through them frame by frame, I've found he took the input frame into account for some and not for others).

If you mean how soon after your Lloid is "gone" you can generate another, I can tell you it's sadly not on F1. It seems to be between 5-10F after your Lloid is gone, but that is just a rough estimate. The value seems to be the same for whether Lloid impacts a wall, impacts an entity, is detonated by a hitbox, self destructs, or goes past a blastline.

 

[Kofu]

Pocket and stale-move negation:

So after doing the Tree/Lloid staleness tests I got to wondering about Pocket and staleness. Around when I first made this thread I said Pocket doesn't stale, but as it turns out I was wrong (which mechanically isn't a good thing...)!

In short

• Pocket ignores the staleness (and freshness) of projectiles. If you Pocket a bowling ball that's been staled down to deal 7%, then it will still deal a displayed 29% with the early hit with a fresh Pocket, rather than 13%/14%
• Pocket itself is affected by staling though. The multiplier stales. It only stales when an unpocketed projectile connects though, so missing with the projectile or missing pocketing a projectile won't stale it.
  • When Pocket is fresh in a match (first use), its multiplier is about ~x1.90449, just slightly greater than the x1.9 baseline. This is mechanically identical to how all other damaging attacks deal x1.05 their base damage in a match when absolutely fresh. I tested this by Pocketing a bowling ball and jumping so that the late (strong) hit would connect, twenty times. During a match, I SDed after each hit to keep pocket fresh, and the target's total damage ended up being 648%. In training (no staling/freshness bonus), it was 646%.
  • On its second use, its multiplier is about ~x1.67 (1.66854)
  • On its third use, its multiplier is about ~x1.53 (1.52809)
  • On its fourth use, its multiplier is about ~x1.4 (1.40449)
• Garden, despite not increasing Pocketed projectiles' damage, still has its "multiplier" stale
  • The "missed pocket" flowering hitbox and the multiplier share the same stale move queue. Connecting with an unpocketed projectile stales the flowering hitbox, and vice-versa

That's actually it for now. I'm going to test for all of the multipliers along the stale move queue (which would be ten for each Pocket), and so it's going to take longer and longer with each spot.

tl;dr clean out your pockets yo, don't let them get all stale and nasty with all the junk you put in them

Update: After more testing (code word for ****ing around) with Garden, it seems that what is happening is that the multiplier for whatever spot in the staleness queue Pocket is currently in is applied in addition to the regular multiplier. So what I said still stands, Pocket ignores the spot in the staleness queue the projectile was in at the time of being Pocketed. Instead, whatever spot Pocket is in at the time of unpocketing is used.

So basically the final damage is

Bd(1.9Q)
for Pocket

BdQ
for Garden

Bd(1.3Q)
for Pocket Plus

Where

Bd = pocketed projectile's base damage
Q = multiplier for whatever spot in the staleness queue Pocket/Garden/Pocket Plus is at the time of unpocketing

Update v2.0: For whatever reason Pocketed (standard) Trees are treated as a distinct attack as far as staling goes. Might be an oversight? It's only standard Trees (I havent tested Counter or Super yet) that are treated as their own attack when Pocketed; all of the rest of Villagers and other characters projectiles when Pocketed count as using Pocket for staleness.

Heh, you beat me to it because I procrastinated. Can you elaborate on your numbers, though? Assuming the staleness multipliers are unchanged from Brawl (and I'm pretty sure they are), an unstaled Pocketed projectile should deal nearly twice the base damage of the projectile (1.995). For reference, a fresh attack has a multiplier of 1.05 (which you noted), and other staleness depends on when the move was used of your last 9 attacks, subtracting values from a 1x multiplier. For consecutive uses, the multiplier should be as follows (going from two uses to ten):

1.729
1.577
1.444
1.33
1.235
1.159
1.102
1.064
1.045

I should be able to test this in a second but the numbers just seem slightly off, that's all. Glad we were right about Pocket staling and Garden sharing staleness between the attack and the actual pocketing. Well, not glad, but you get what I mean

 

[LimitCrown]

The multipliers for stale move negation seem to be different from the ones in Brawl when when I checked them, if I recall correctly.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but Villager's turnips will only spike as soon as they're pulled out and in the hitbox nearest to Villager's hands.
I was just confused on when Villager's turnips spike

 

[SoniCraft]

Are you aware that Ftilt has a small chance of causing a trip at low percentages? I tested this out a while back when the new patch came out, but I don't think it's a result of the patch. It happened at 0-18%, but not very often. Does this need to be noted on this thread?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yes, but that's because it's a 361° launch angle move. All hitboxes with this launch angle have an increased chance to trip opponents. At lower percents, the angle causes relatively straight launches near the ground, then when the hitbox passes a certain knockback threshold, it begins launching at ~45° into the air.

Brawl was the first game this was noted (when people started looking at hitbox data they noticed a lot of moves had this special launch angle) and with the infamy of random tripping, people started calling it the Sakurai Angle.

 

[Player-1]

It'd be nice to find out how many active frames bowling ball has when you drop it on the ground assuming no slopes and stuff. And also how many frames the bowling ball overlaps both the shortest character while grabbing the edge and the tallest character while grabbing the edge. IDK if anyone has material to find that out, @ Indigo Jeans ?

 

[TR33]

It'd be nice to find out how many active frames bowling ball has when you drop it on the ground assuming no slopes and stuff. And also how many frames the bowling ball overlaps both the shortest character while grabbing the edge and the tallest character while grabbing the edge. IDK if anyone has material to find that out, @ Indigo Jeans ?

Same for tree's active frames assuming it falls on flat ground, I mean unless I'm just not seeing it in the data.