Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[MrPhox]

In my opinion, it would be better to pit computers against each other in say, 400 matches and see the results...

but that is outcome of computers. computers can't anticipate, play mindgames, adapt, or use glitch/advanced techniques.

so the outcome would be different than the metagame

 

[BluMilk]

I highly doubt that Peach is at a disadvantage to almost all of the roster. People should get used to her more before jumping to conclusions.

I guess ill take the first stab at peach since shes been almost completly ignored...

Peach > Marth : Wow ill problly get flamed for this but seriously peach is just too resorceful for marth to keep up. Not too mention a well placed >B can kill marth at as low as 100 simply because of crap recovery.

Peach < PIT : pits arrows combined with crazy priority over peach and peachs light weight make this matchup a nightmare. Seriously.... if your opponet is pit...Pick someone else.

Peach < Luigi : Air Priority.



Ill post more later...

 

[billythegoat]

I would like to know why Gannon has the advantage against the ice climbers? This seems strange since they are able to chain grab him from 0 to 50, and he is so laggy and slow it is way easy to get grabs off on him. I must admit that I have never played against a good Gannon.

 

[Zenjamin]

DDD vs Olimar is a HUGE disadvantage for DDD.

I was a ganon main in Melee, and i would MUCH rather fight sheik with Ganon then i would Olimar with DDD.

 

[nightSN]

i find it friggen hard to fight pit while im lucario -.-

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

First off... you're not Phanna.

please stop.

2ndly.. Why do you have it where PT, MK, Pit, Marth, and DK counter over half the characters in the game?

my 2nd point shows your and complete failure to understand counters and how they work in this game..

how about you wait about 6months before attempting this and looking like a dumb@** or ask some pros/post in character specific topics about their matchups.

Good Day Sir.

That's basically what I was thinking. He probably guessed based on what he and his friends play.

I guess ill take the first stab at peach since shes been almost completly ignored...

Peach > Marth : Wow ill problly get flamed for this but seriously peach is just too resorceful for marth to keep up. Not too mention a well placed >B can kill marth at as low as 100 simply because of crap recovery.

Peach < PIT : pits arrows combined with crazy priority over peach and peachs light weight make this matchup a nightmare. Seriously.... if your opponet is pit...Pick someone else.

Peach < Luigi : Air Priority.

No flaming here. In the Peach vs. Marth matchup, don't forget that Marth can kill Peach very quickly too. On smaller stages, Marth has a much easier time.

I don't think Peach vs. Pit is that bad, but it's still Pit's advantage.

I never really had a problem fighting Luigi. Not sure where this will go though.

DDD vs Olimar is a HUGE disadvantage for DDD.

I was a ganon main in Melee, and i would MUCH rather fight sheik with Ganon then i would Olimar with DDD.

Forward tilt is useful in this matchup. But yeah, it really sucks. It reminds me a lot of the Zelda vs. Fox matchup in melee. One can do a good 80%+ to the other before the other could even touch him...

I highly doubt that Peach is at a disadvantage to almost all of the roster. People should get used to her more before jumping to conclusions.

I know that she's not. She seems to have a bunch of favorable matchups. None of which are mentioned on this chart.

ok I would say since I play Gannondorf extensivly

Gannon > IC, Kirby, Ness, Peach, Sonic
Gannon = Ike, Mario, Luigi, Wario
Gannon < Lucario, Lucas, MK, Pika, Olimar, Samus

Olimar doesn't really have any bad match ups....

I don't know, Peach has a lot going for her vs. Ganon. And Olimar does have bad matchups. It might not seem that way because he destroys large heavy characters (such as Ganon) really badly.

 

[Mattnumbers]

In my experience Lucas is an Ike counter. PK fire outprioritizes Ikes sideb and he can hit him from a distance. He can also use his dair when above him and it will usually hit before Ike can swing his upsmash. PK fire is VERY usefull against Ike. You can spam it and keep him away, then smash if he rolls right next to you (both lucas's side and down smash have hitboxes behind him) or avoid. you can also hurt his recovery a lot with PK thunder. Also I should add that Ikes counter is too slow to be used consistantly when PK fire is being spammed. Lucas also is quick enough to dart in inbetween his slower attacks and hit him with a quick fsmash.

 

[Vandom6]

Until I see anyone else post one, I'm going to continue to applaud the OP on this. At least he's trying.

 

[Vaul]

This is good stuff. You're open to suggestions and that's all that matters. Keep it up.

As a Gangsta Watch main, who has spent quite a bit of time in the respective character forums:

G&W>Ness. This matchup almost seems unfair. When Ness is recovering, G&W can FILL his bucket with one PK thunder and declare any hope for Ness's survival null and void. As an alternative, G&W can simply upB near Ness and blow him (haha) upward, far and away from the thunderbolt (not to mention the obvious fairs and bairs). Vice-versa, Ness's PK thunder just isn't as effective on a recovering G&W (awesome recovery) than it is on other characters. For off the map edgeguarding, Ness's best option would most likely be his bair, but it still doesn't compare to G&W's capabilities. On the stage, G&W can absorb all of Ness's specials (excluding PSI magnet for obvious reasons), matches Ness in speed and beats him in most ranged attacks. The only things I see going for Ness in this matchup are his deceptively heavy weight (compared to the lightweight that is G&W) and Ness's devastating backthrow for kills at relatively low percentages. That aside, G&W has the advantage. This is pretty much the dominant consensus by both G&W mainers and the Ness camp (notables like Ademisk included).

I also believe that G&W has the edge over Lucas, Falco, Pit and Zelda (characters heavily dependent on their projectile game), but I won't go into detail here, mostly because I'm lazy, and of course these are very much arguable.

Personally, and for several Gangsta Watch mainers as well, I have a hell of a hard time against Toon Link. Unstoppable projectile attacks, speed, combo ability and priority all go in his favor (in relative terms). I wouldn't go so far as to declare TL a counter, but from what I can see its definitely a trend.

 

[Drezel]

alright well u need to add some things for wario so here goes...

1. wario has an advantage against all heavyweights such as bowser, donkey kong, etc. due to his fast yet powerful attacks and recovery gimping abilities

2. wario does not excel against very speedy characters such as space animals; especially projectile spammers like falco

3. against kind of fast people like diddy i dont believe theres any advantage both ways except that wario is a sexy beast

4. ike<wario snake=wario marth>wario metaknight>wario sonic<wario (cuz of his bite)

thats all i can think of for now...hope that helps

 

[ph00tbag]

First off... you're not Phanna.

please stop.

2ndly.. Why do you have it where PT, MK, Pit, Marth, and DK counter over half the characters in the game?

my 2nd point shows your and complete failure to understand counters and how they work in this game..

how about you wait about 6months before attempting this and looking like a dumb@** or ask some pros/post in character specific topics about their matchups.

Good Day Sir.

Not just that, but even Phanna's Chart was often very wrong, even several years into the metagame, and after several corrections (This is not a rag on Phanna, though. I wouldn't put it to any one person to compile such a list, and that Phanna even tried shows a lot of dedication.)

 

[Problem2]

Meta Knight > Lucario, Ganondorf

both Lucario and Ganondorf are slower in comparison to Metaknight and have some of the most gimpable recoveries while Ledge guarding is MK's primary source of KOing. Also, Lucario's uncharged aurasphere can be easily penetrated by Mach Tornado

Marth > Meta Knight

Marth however is almost even in speed with MK, and boasting a longer sword and more power, he has a natural advantage. Also, Marth's F-air often blocks MK's f-air and n-air, and Marth's Dolphin Slash is neigh ungimpable. Infact, attempting to strike against Marth's Up-B often results in being stage spiked...

 

[D_B_S]

Lucas> Marth

U gotta be joking......

 

[Gregory2590]

Ike has an advantage over Sonic?




wat

 

[IvanEva]

I've actually thought an enormous deal about this, and sent a message bugging phanna about the direction of a Brawl matchup chart. Here's my thoughts:

First, data should only be collected from the character subforums by knowledgeable mains of the characters. This data will begin to solidify as matchup guides and rankings are added to character guides. The important thing is to not base most of the chart off personal opinions of any one person, be it yourself or random March '08 posters in your thread.

Second, all data should be collected only upon the consensus of BOTH character subforums. This should be obvious: if The Jigglypuff board insists that Jiggs counters Pikachu in Brawl, and the Pikachu board is saying that Pikachu counters Jigglypuff, part of this project would be working towards an agreement with the two bodies. In a case like this I would expect one of the advocating groups to merely be less informed than the other.

I agree. However, it's probably relatively safe to assume that if somebody feels strongly about a certain match-up, so much so that they post it, they probably know a bit or two about what they're talking about. Posts like Ripple's go a long way towards completing this chart. As well, I've been digging into the forums to look for match-up discussions and the like to add more to the chart as well as verify that the chart isn't too far off.

These aren't just my opinions or even just the poster's here. There are several match-ups that, at least at this point in time, are practically official. I've yet to read about anybody trying to argue that Mr. Game and Watch ISN'T the counter to Lucas or Ness. I think we can all completely agree that he is.

That some people are less informed than others is obvious; charts like these would be redundant otherwise (for example, I have no idea how Meta Knight does against anybody since I don't know any Meta Knight players). That's why it's better to have it out as a work in progress so that the community can see, at a glance, how characters are considered against each other and contribute what they know. Disagreements like your Pikachu/Jiggypuff example would be much easier to spot if you only have to look in one spot. For disputes I have that little black question mark until it's solved.

"part of this project would be working towards an agreement with the two bodies." Absolutely! That's exactly it! There are a lot of characters in this game. Digging though each of the boards for hours isn't always great which is why members should have a nice little picture they can quickly glance at and even contribute to.

Lucas> Marth

U gotta be joking......

Marth is amazing, no doubt about that. However, as I'm sure most Marth players would agree (and many posts in the Marth threads strongly support this) he is at a disadvantage against projectile spammers. Lucas' PK Fire can be a difficult thing for Marth to get past and PK Thunder will always hit a Marth unless blocked. Brawl was made in such a way that camping is very much possible. Marth rocks, yes, but he has to go through hell against a Lucas (well, not hell, but he's still has to work harder than against many others).

 

[Olaf]

lucario > metaknight.
since lucarios power and knockback are increased by his %, and metaknight has absurd flurry but is mildly lacking in massive power hits, lucario can get massive damage and kill meta in 2-3 attacks at the end of any life.

Wolf > olimar - laser spam + f smash decimates pikmin, plus olimar's weight class is great for comboing. possiibly true with all spacies.

squirtle > link - sheer speed, plus that ****water gun can push him away from the ledge, gimping his already bad recovery. (water gun issue applies also to mario's fludd)

 

[Break]

Would it be possible to have explanations along with the chart as to why and how certain matchups have advantages/disadvantages? I means, sure, most of us who frequent the forums already know the reasoning, but it would be sweet to have it all archived in one place.

 

[FlashGearz]

Dedede has it pretty bad agienst Falco, and Pit. Actually, he has a bad match up against everyone he can't chain throw

 

[Doc_Holiday]

First off... you're not Phanna.

please stop.

2ndly.. Why do you have it where PT, MK, Pit, Marth, and DK counter over half the characters in the game?

my 2nd point shows your and complete failure to understand counters and how they work in this game..

how about you wait about 6months before attempting this and looking like a dumb@** or ask some pros/post in character specific topics about their matchups.

Good Day Sir.

Hello and happy 1 month anniversary on the boards you ****ing ******! Phanna didn't copyright this **** and FYI, he's not even good at Smash. You sir, obviously know nothing about Brawl because Pokemon Trainer, Metaknight, Pit and Marth do have the advantage in quite a few of their match-ups.




Metaknight>>>>>>Luigi, Luigi can't approach Metaknight from the top or the bottom, especially on platform stages.

 

[MaverickZer0]

I've done a ton of mario ones... i'll post em here for you to add.

Mario > DK
Mario = Link
Mario = Samus
Mario < Kirby
Mario < Fox
Mario < Pikachu
Mario < Marth
Mario = Game & Watch
Mario > Luigi
Mario < Diddy
Mario > Zelda
Mario < Pit
Mario < Meta Knight
Mario > Falco
Mario < Pokemon Trainer
Mario > Ike
Mario < Snake
Mario = Peach
Mario > Yoshi
Mario = Ganondorf
Mario < Ice Climbers

 

[Zook]

Ivysaur counters Bowser. Bullet Seed is just too good.

 

[Jaxx]

I would like to know why Gannon has the advantage against the ice climbers? This seems strange since they are able to chain grab him from 0 to 50, and he is so laggy and slow it is way easy to get grabs off on him. I must admit that I have never played against a good Gannon.

I've played extensively against good IC, forward b ***** ic bad.

1. he can combo both of them(foward b grab, neutral a punch hits both of them)

2. his hits out prioritize them(case in point, I've seen gannons forward smash go through some of ic moves, which is utterly ******** imo)

3. his forward and down air destroy their up b

 

[IvanEva]

Would it be possible to have explanations along with the chart as to why and how certain matchups have advantages/disadvantages? I means, sure, most of us who frequent the forums already know the reasoning, but it would be sweet to have it all archived in one place.

This could just be my bad math, but wouldn't that be around 760 explanations!? I think it would be neat, an encyclopedia of sorts, but good lord, that'd be way too big. I think that for in-depth details on specific match-ups it's better to dive into the character's own match-up thread where paragraphs can be written about why the match-up is what it is.

The chart is more like a large overview, seeing the whole picture at one time. That being said, writing at least one line explaining the reasoning per cell would certainly help debates and such. However, some advantages seem to have multiple reasons and that'd make things even longer. I'll keep it in mind though. If it's what everybody wants than it'll totally be in.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Real Quick...

If anyone wants to continue to flame me b/c they "think im a noob that has only been on SWF for roughly 1 month.."

ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?

<--- this is ChozenOne

I went up for "Jack of All Trades" 2 years ago.. and have been an extremely active member of the community since '04.. learn your ****, or get out. I remember back when BornFidelity was still posting in the non europe forums.. and Honorbound wasn't yet Wobbles... or perhaps when most of the mods were not even mods..

or even further back when [at the top of the screen] it used to show the number of members, posts, and topics...

So for those of you that think i don't know my ****.. YOU clearly don't know YOUR ****.





I suggest you post a topic in each chacter specific thread asking for matchup information, or have people PM you on their specific thoughts.. its also very early in the game [as I said before] to really consider anything this game breaking... much like the idea of tier list ATM.. not really realistic.... but if you want to continue and attept this, you NEED to go to the character specific boards.

Good Day Sirs.

 

[Zenjamin]

abybody who questions choozen's expeence withink the comminity has displayed their own (extreme) ignorance of the community.

 

[ph00tbag]

Real Quick...

If anyone wants to continue to flame me b/c they "think im a noob that has only been on SWF for roughly 1 month.."

ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?

<--- this is ChozenOne

Weren't you banned?

(kidding!)

 

[Mario_ 101]

I've done a ton of mario ones... i'll post em here for you to add.

Mario > DK
Mario = Link
Mario = Samus
Mario < Kirby
Mario < Fox
Mario < Pikachu
Mario < Marth
Mario = Game & Watch
Mario > Luigi
Mario < Diddy
Mario > Zelda
Mario < Pit
Mario < Meta Knight
Mario > Falco
Mario < Pokemon Trainer
Mario > Ike
Mario < Snake
Mario = Peach
Mario > Yoshi
Mario = Ganondorf
Mario < Ice Climbers

That's good, but I disagree with the Pikachu and Fox matchups. Fox is pretty much the same as Falco, so wouldn't it be in Mario's favor? And as for the Pikachu, well, it's pretty easy to combo, mario can reflect its two projectiles, and can edgeguard it well.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Weren't you banned?

(kidding!)

Like 12 times... >_> Tope is Gay... i think Mic hates me too... and if Matt is still a mod im offically scared

 

[eyestrain92]

Obviously you have a very biased account if you're going off peoples' opinions without proper logic, being as most people think Wolf and the Spacies are god like still. Your Bowser statistics need work, who exactly was testing this? Only a pro Bowser should be gauged, being as you either play him awesomely, or fail hard.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Sir.. Spacies ARE still awesome... Wolf might aswell be a direct counter to MK, Falco's lazers are still gay, and Fox can do some seriously bull**** shine tactics, and Dair-->Utilt-->Repeat is in need of an update.. where is the lag >_>

 

[MaverickZer0]

Mario: Pikachu and Fox have an edge on Mario because of their movesets. I did this experiment pitting 2 Level 9 CPU against each other on Final Destination with 3 stock. Some matches Mario completely dominated, others he was destroyed. Fox held an edge on Mario simply because he had the better strategic moves. Falco got obliterated, and I mean badly. Their rocket moves differ slight, and that made all the difference in being effective against a very good Mario. Fox is a bit more faster, Falco is floatier.

Pikachu only has one projectile, and has the speed to punish mario. The only time I saw Mario be effective against Pikachu, was when he caped Pikachus quick attack to send him off another trajectory. The rest of the match, Pikachu was juggling Mario.

I took a lot into consideration, Edgeguarding was a factor, how agressive the character could be while still being able to recover. Pikachu was able to chase Mario off screen for a KO and manage to get back on land before falling to his own death, Mario was hapless as he was just launched. So that's what gave it to Pikachu

 

[IvanEva]

I suggest you post a topic in each chacter specific thread asking for matchup information, or have people PM you on their specific thoughts.. its also very early in the game [as I said before] to really consider anything this game breaking... much like the idea of tier list ATM.. not really realistic.... but if you want to continue and attept this, you NEED to go to the character specific boards.

Good Day Sirs.

I too was thinking of posting a match-up topic in each thread that doesn't have one to help with filling out the Match-Up Chart. Match-ups are annoyingly hard to find right now, even disputed ones. That's a bit much for me right now though.

However, it's never too early to consider making a match-up chart. It's an evolving thing. All of the disputed ones will be marked as such - perhaps some will never be resolved. Tiers take much longer to make but to say that Olimar doesn't have an advantage over Dedede right now is wrong. Character advantages aren't anywhere near as game breaking as tiers; they're much more subtle and multi-dimensional. They're like rock-paper-scissors with characters. As well, I AM going to the threads, as are, I should hope, most people posting here.

Your time on these boards and experience in posting are completely irrelevant to the topic. If you're certain of a match-up advantage, or lack thereof, please post it. If you know of a 'pro' who's spoken of a certain match-up (like M2K on Marth and projectiles) then please post the match-up advantages or at least point me in the right direction. All of these match-ups might change in time but this chart will always be updated with the current view on specific match-ups so long as I can be made aware of it.

Obviously you have a very biased account if you're going off peoples' opinions without proper logic, being as most people think Wolf and the Spacies are god like still. Your Bowser statistics need work, who exactly was testing this? Only a pro Bowser should be gauged, being as you either play him awesomely, or fail hard.

"Most people"? That sounds like a large generalization. Many threads I've read are putting Marth/Meta Knight/Pit/Olimar/Diddy higher than the Space Animals... The 'testing' is done by the people who know their mains and thus post their observations. A 'pro's' opinion does carry a ton of clout, but they can be very hard to find. I'd LOVE it if some big-name players could contribute.

I did this experiment pitting 2 Level 9 CPU against each other on Final Destination with 3 stock.

Thanks for the list; I'll add it after sniffing around the Mario thread, with the disputed ones marked as such, when I get home. However, just be sure that it's based off experience fighting humans who know what they're doing. Please don't use CPUs in determining match-ups.

 

[Wilde]

Instead of giving us half-baked material that will probably be totally changed anyway, he should have just kept it to himself until it was completely finished. He even forgot a character, so obviously not a lot of work went into it.

You can enjoy your half-finished list if you'd like, but I myself would rather see a totally fleshed out and completed project. JUST SAYIN'.

are you stupid? Who would prefer an UNFISHED chart to a FINISHED chart?! Obviously a finished chart is much more beneficial in 99.9% of scenarios.

/sarcasm

thanks for lending your unparalleled insight into this dilemna

/sarcasm

you ARE stupid! Data/research/hypothesis/etc. get better, more efficent/effective when collaborating with other people and incoorporating the views of many different minded individuals. It's great to show your research to other people before it is finished so you can collaborate and come up with more effective methods and techniques.

Do you think engineers have a bridge design erected, then when the bridge is done they go and talk to colleagues and ask if the bridge is as efficent and optimum as it could be?

 

[Chaosblade77]

First of all asking for this type of information and just going by what people say isn't a good way to gather data.

I play Ike, and I don't have much trouble against some of the fast characters. I've totally destroyed some fairly good Fox and Shiek players, for example.

I agree Lucas is definitely an Ike counter though...

And I don't see how ZSS loses to Captain Falcon either, he actually seems like one of the easier characters to beat with her, but that is just based off my play experience so it's not going to be accurate.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I don't really know if Marth / Snake are really all that bad of matchups for Metaknight really, they seem pretty even. I know a lot of marth players have trouble with metaknight as well, so it seems kinda even then, in that regard. It's just a hard fight for both players. As for vs Snake, metaknight can get around snake's zoning, out prioritize him, has longer range, is way faster, destroys him in the air, and generally has an easier time approaching him than other characters because of his mobility. I think this makes up for Snake's advantages in having ranged attacks and KOing Meta at low-ish percentages. I'd say this fight is even.

So..

Metaknight = Marth

Metaknight = Snake

 

[MaverickZer0]

Ivan: I just use the superior CPU's against each other to see tactics, and make a judgement based on the better of the two fighting styles, strategies and intangibles. I don't have anyone around here with a great knowledge of the game other than myself, who'd play me for a few hours

 

[null]

Zelda/Shiek seem to have a harder-than-usual time with Wolf, of course, this may just be me?
Wolf's reflector stops her projectiles
It's difficult for her to approach him him being knocked into the air
And his ground game seems equal, if not superior (tilts, forward smash, etc.).

 

[Wilde]

EVERYONE'S HELP: If we got a good amount of people to participate, we could easily map out an excel chart very quickly. Just leave 2 level 9 CPUs fighting each other (on battlefield probably, no items) whenever you leave for class or go to bed. You could get about 2-4 different matchups calculated each day, the fights would have hundreds of KOs!

It might not be solid evidence of anything with human participants, but it would be interesting to see if there are any glaring holes.

With everyone doing 2-4 multiple hour matchups a day, it would go buy relatively quickly

 

[MaverickZer0]

For it to be effective, you really need to watch the matches, to see who has the advantages and how they use edgeguarding effectively

 

[ComradeSAL]

Cool, I'll give my thoughts on R.O.B because that's what I've been playing.

vs. Pit: EXTREMELY unfavorable. His projectile trumps yours at just about every possible situation. Your huge size hurts a lot here because it's so easy for him to hit you, even if you try jumping/dodging. Side B helps but doesn't solve the problem by any means. Moreover, when you finally get to him he'll just shield grab you and start arrowing again. He's also **** near impossible to edge guard, which is a huge part of ROB's game. Overall, this seems like a clear uphill battle under the best of circumstances.

vs. Lucas: Favorable. Your laser trumps PK-fire and he has no way to approach you. Shield-grabbing him is extremely effective because his grab is high risk, low reward. You have priority over all of his moves in the air.

vs. TLink: Neutral. Your projectile is better than any of his, except he's got 3 and you've got 1. In the air his dair and uair trump every air move you have (although a well-timed usmash takes priority over his dair). However, for side to side air battles you have the advantage. Your fair just outranges his fair and bair, so it's hard for him to hit with either move. Also, his terrible grab is a liability that you can exploit by shielding lots. I think it's either favorable or neutral, but when in doubt go with the more conservative choice.


vs. Marth: Favorable. He's easily campable, and even if he gets to you your fair is nearly as good as his. The aggressor has such a huge disadvantage in this game that even Marth can't really compete with a decent camping projectile spammer. Shields and Tops ftw.

vs. Ike: Favorable. He's essentially like Marth, except even easier to camp. His side + B is hilariously easy to counter with either lasers or tops, and he's sloooowww.

*

Not too sure about these next two, but I figured I'd fill them in just cause their empty. If someone disagrees I'd be willing to cede them pretty easily.

vs. Metaknight: Unfavorable. Unlike Marth or Ike, when he gets to you basically all of his attacks are unpunishable by shield grabbing. He's also small and harder to hit with laser, and difficult to edge guard.

vs. Samus: Unfavorable. Her retardedly safe air-grapple attack gives campers fits and is hard to defend against. Also, if ROB lasers and Samus fires a fully charged B shot, guess who wins?