Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[rathy Aro]

ok its is really all about mindgames son. but that's the actual player not the game so it doesent matter.
yes u can win from jsut one grab. 0->Death comboes really aren't that rare in Melee.

There aren't combos that take out 4 stocks... well unless you're M2K or something.

I say brawl is more balanced. You can be all over good at brawl and win against top tier chars with low tiers if you're just good like that. 2 of snakes tilts can be spot dodged and one isn't too hard to punish. There are ways to stop him from recovering too. Essentially without ATs and the ability to combo into death the gap just isn't as large between chars.

 

[Samochan]

ok its is really all about mindgames son. but that's the actual player not the game so it doesent matter.
yes u can win from jsut one grab. 0->Death comboes really aren't that rare in Melee.

And last time I checked, we played with 4 stocks, not 1. So your argument was totally nullifyed here, since that 1 grab cannot extend beyond that 1 stock. >_> I also don't see how 1 grab = chaingrab or death combo when the grab is simply just a grab, nothing more.

 

[IrArby]

ok its is really all about mindgames son. but that's the actual player not the game so it doesent matter.
yes u can win from jsut one grab. 0->Death comboes really aren't that rare in Melee.

They may not have been rare when scrubs got toasted in tourneys but in general 0 > Death Combos amongst pros are pretty **** rare. 0>Death combos are not the same thing as 0>35% combo, tech chase, dash dance mindgame to get the grab, 35>68% combo off the edge, edgeguard to Death. Also, it is the game not just the player since Brawl doesn't really allow for a wealth of Mindgames.

And yes this thread has the most amazing tags of any thread on smashboards. lol The sad thing is I'm proud to have played a crucial role in the creation of all of them including Bombshielder, option, and wa la.

 

[Samochan]

And yes this thread has the most amazing tags of any thread on smashboards. lol The sad thing is I'm proud to have played a crucial role in the creation of all of them including Bombshielder, option, and wa la.

Yes yes, but don't take all the credit, I added the Wa la one there. ;p

 

[ShadowLink84]

I say brawl is more balanced.

strike one.

You can be all over good at brawl and win against top tier chars with low tiers if you're just good like that.

Strike 2
You forgot if your opponent is bad like that in your sentence.

2of snakes tilts can be spot dodged and one isn't too hard to punish.

Partly true.
Utilt and Dtilt can be spot dodged.
However while teh D tilt can be punished the Utilt is harder to punish. Mainly because of its range and how far it pushes you back when shielded.
NOt many characters outside of tetherers can take advantage.
Especially if its spaced properly.
Same with the F tilt, you really have to shield and even then the Ftilt has good knockback and excellent range.

I think Snake has an invisible sword.

There are ways to stop him from recovering too. Essentially without ATs and the ability to combo into death the gap just isn't as large between chars.

STRIKE 3.

Because there are no 0-death combos the gap is smaller.
In melee if a Fox whiffed an Fsmash on Link it was easily 0-70% combo or even death.
In brawl Fox whiffs the Fsmash gets punished for a measly 13-20%. And goes for another Fsmash and another until it lands.

Shieldstun being lesser makes it harder to break a camper.
Lack of hitstun means less punishment.
This game doesn't let you be punished for stupid behavior as it should

I shouldn't be getting hit in the middle of a jab combo.
Nor should I be getting hit immediately after I Nair my opponent.

The gap is larger BECAUSE the smallest mistakes no longer can be punished and therefore give lower tiered characters a chance at beating higher ones.

The gap is larger not smaller.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think Snake has an invisible sword.

O.o i wonder where he keeps it, do you?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Probably like Ganondorf he has it in his ***, I mean it looks big enough to hold a sword.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lol. there should be a topic on where non sheathed items come from..... oh, wait nvm those tend to go...well....

 

[Revolutionary1804]

strike one.

The gap is larger BECAUSE the smallest mistakes no longer can be punished and therefore give lower tiered characters a chance at beating higher ones.

The gap is larger not smaller.

how does giving low tier charters a chance at beating high tier ones make the gap larger......:
melee is much more of a hardccore game compared to Brawl, anyone (any decent player) can pick any character and play you in a match. in melee they just can't. Melee may be the better game for us people that paly alot because one likes to reap the benefits of their work such as pracicing ATs and all that, but the gaps in skill by themselves should show that it is not more balanced then Brawl.

 

[RDK]

GH4 and Rock Band are not made by Nintendo, though. Nintendo themselves apparently do not believe in DLC for games they make themselves, but they obviously have no problems with other companies making DLC for their games.

Nintendo doesn't believe in DLC because they A) Don't give a **** about the part of its userbase that actually cares about their games and wishes to see some DLC to help game balance / quality, and / or B) They think every title that pops out of Nintendo's collective v@gina is an instant masterpiece and doesn't need tampering.

Brawl is much more balanced when taken in a professional player p.o.v. In brawl, any character can beat the other even though its a more difficult matchup for let's say a C.Falcon versus an MK. However, while there are some god tier characters in this game, in Melee, you picked a high tier= you placed high. in Brawl, skill is much more a factor, nots aying that Melee didnt have tech skillz but realistically, once u got the techs down they werent hard at all to reproduce. Every Brawl match is a different match as opposed to Melee where repetition was all around. The fact that brawl took out combos makes it for a fairer game. Longer combos= more unfairness since during that time u cant touch or do anything. (will post more later... hungry)

The above post is so ludicrously wrong that I'm not even going to attempt to enlighten you.

 

[TuigiX]

I think the fact that you see a bigger diversity of characters played competitively in Brawl then there was in Melle already shows that some progress has been made in the balance department.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

but whats fairer the guy who works his *** off mastering and learning everything about lets say Mewtwo in melee and while yes he will have trouble against a very skilled Fox there is the chance he can win. because Mew2 can juggle/combo Fox and if Fox makes any mistake mew2 can punish him severly for it.

Or in brawl where say the Link player can learn all they can about Link but when it comes to fighting Snake the Snake player can be s skill point or two lower than the Link player, but link still has to work extreamly hard just to keep up with snake b/c the gap between them as a character are so big. if Link makes any kind of mistake it could cost him a stock, but snake can make quite a few and link gets like 1 maybe 2 hits in which might not even kill snake.

 

[RDK]

I think the fact that you see a bigger diversity of characters played competitively in Brawl then there was in Melle already shows that some progress has been made in the balance department.

Melee was just as diverse in its early stages as Brawl. It was actually MORE diverse if you look at tournament placings. Show me tournaments where anyone other than Snake or MK consistently make it into the top 5.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Melee was just as diverse in its early stages as Brawl. It was actually MORE diverse if you look at tournament placings. Show me tournaments where anyone other than Snake or MK consistently make it into the top 5.

I think I remember one.....It's probably somewhere in Ankoku's big *** file of recorded tournament data...but even then yeah it's only one exception to the other 200_ >_>

Well I found 4 without a Snake....but there's a Metaknight (Albeit didn't place too high in either) >_>

1 D1 (Falco)
1 DI King (Pit)
3 ELI (Wario)
4 Shadow (Meta Knight)
5 Snake (ZSS)
5 NinjaLink (Diddy Kong)
7 Starzonedge (Olimar)
7 Hax

1 BUM (Donkey Kong)
1 Starzonedge (Olimar)
3 DireVulcan (Mr. Game & Watch)
4 NinjaLink
5 Ron (Pikachu/ROB)
5 Eli (Wario/Pit)
7 Basic Sausage (King Dedede/Meta Knight)
7 Alukard (Ike)

1 DR.PeePee (Marth)
2 Karn (ROB)
3 LOZR (Wario)
4 Bill (Olimar)
5 Mullins (Lucario)
5 Twitch (Meta Knight)
7 PAC! (Falcon)
7 NeoSpeedS8ter (Ice Climbers)

1 RoyR (Marth)
2 Stiltz (Meta Knight/Olimar)
3 Hylian (Ice Climbers/Mr. Game & Watch)
4 cXc (ROB)
5 Kalo (Wolf)
5 Rocket Trainer (Lucario)
7 Pup
7 Xyro (Samus)

1 Futile (Wario)
2 Teba (King Dedede)
3 Shadow (ROB)
4 C0nnor (Metaknight)
5 Danimals (Marth)
5 Boa (Marth)
7 Aero
7 Insomniak (Mr. Game & Watch)

 

[IrArby]

The number of characters is only a plus in the Balance department if the game has relatively good balance so many characters are fighting for the top spot. If its completely unbalanced (like Brawl) the number of characters, though somewhat balanced in the mid tiers, is really just cause for more unbalance since there is that many more characters get owned by the top dogs.

Revolutionary1804: What your saying about not being able to randomly pick up Melee characters is due to the ATs and other special attributes of their metagame that you have to learn. We've thoroughly discussed this in this thread. The ATs you're required to learn to play Melee chars is what makes the game more balanced not the other way around because it allows everyone to do something. In Brawl, yea you can pick up anyone and figure out how to play them pretty quick but this means you have characters with little depth. Once you reach the peak of their potential (an hour later) you can take that character no further. The characters that are naturally superior like M2 and Snake are thus insurmountable since no other characters have means of catching up. They have only their normal attacks which aren't good enough. The peak of a lower tiered characters depth (which is an interesting oxymoron "peak of depth") is just insufficent to play MK/Snake. Not that those two characters have a lot of depth, they're "what you see is what you get" characters just like everyone else in Brawl but, what you see intially is a very impressive and very difficult to defeat.
Also, you may want to clean up your grammar and what not. People in these threads will call you out on it especially mispelled french words. lol

Samochan: You and many others should also take credit for the tags also. I was just dumb enough to put up two of them in the first place so credit goes out to everyone who noticed them and made fun of me for it. Buts that just my option so everyone take it as you will.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Why does Bum always have to break the **** curve >.<

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Why does Bum always have to break the **** curve >.<

Because he likes to piss on the "Snake/MK are gods" theory I would guess >_>.




Granted no amounts of piss will make the problem go away.

 

[Yuna]

What is game balance anyway? Is it how many tournament viable characters there are? I don't really think that is what balance is, but I will indulge you all with some information I have found.

My definition of balance:
Game balance is the total of each characters' chances of winning in Competitive play when compared to every other character.

It's not even that 30 out of 45 characters aren't useless vs. 15 out of 40 if 3 out of those 30 are on an entirely different level, effetively rendering 22 of those 30 useless and the directly following 3 render 19 of those 30 useless with the rest of the 25 of those characters standing a pretty equal chances of beating each other but not the Top 5 (at all).

Ganondorf is the cutoff point for tournament viable in Melee after that you had to have great skill in order to overcome the weaknesses of your character. According to the tier list Ganondorf was ranked twelve. 12/26 is about 46%. That means 46% of the characters in Melee were tournament viable.

Actually, he isn't. He's just the cutoff point because of characters represented at tournaments. The fact that Doctor Mario or Mario were rarely reprented (if ever) at tournaments didn't make them bad characters. In fact, they were pretty good characters and stood a decent chance of doing very well at tournaments. People just didn't play them... despite the fact that they could chaingrab (among others) Fox, Falco and Sheik and throw-combo Peach (and probably Marth) into death with a follow-up aerials or Smash and were otherwise just pretty good against the Tops and Highs. Heck, except for facing infinites from Fox (which Peach also did) and forced adaptation against Falco (which, uh, everyone, did), Link was pretty viable too. He had some really good combos on Fox and Falco, he could edgeguard really well, Up B semi-spiked in NTSC and he wasn't all that bad. He was as tourney viable as at least Lucario.

Depending on how one constructs their tier list Lucario-Lucas are the tournament viable cutoff. That is 20 to 23 tournament viable characters. 20/37 is roughly 54%. Now you tell me which is more balanced?

But how well can Lucario the Bottom 5 out of those 23 characters do against the Top 5 vs. the Bottom 5 of the "tourney viable" in Melee vs. the Top 5 of the same game?

According to Phanna's matchup chart Fox only had two bad matchups Marth and Falco both of those were only 4-5. Fox still had a decent chance of beating them. Falco's only bad matchup was with Peach and again it was only a 4-5.

How many even to pretty-even matchups did the Tops and Highs have against the Low Tiers, though? That's also balance when the lower downs stand a chance againt the higher ups generally.

Sheik had three bad matchups, Fox, Falco, and Ice climbers. After that though she pretty much could **** the rest of the cast. Once you hit Link every matchup is a 5-3 or better.

Did I mention that Phanna's matchup chart is unreliable since it's not like it was voted through by the SBR and I don't think he filtered the opinions of those who submitted their matchup-findings to it? Like, if Random #212891 were to say "Ganondorf destroys Peach, it's a 7-3 matchup,", he wouldn't go "Wait, whaddya say?" but just include it or whatever.

In other words, the chart, which kinda is reliable, isn't really that reliable as it was mostly just another thread in General where anyone could post anything and it was allowed to mess the statistics up.

Mewtwo had no good matchups. Only with bottom tier did Mewtwo even go even with anyone.

Why did you even bring this up when not bringing up the Bottom Tier of Brawl in the same breath?

Now there is speculation that Snake has several disadvantaged matchups with R.O.B., Pikachu, Olimar, and Falco.

Metaknight is speculated to have three bad matchups Snake, Marth, and DK. Metaknight is pretty much the Brawl Sheik.

Wow, there's "speculation". You know what, there was speculation Wario sucked as well. I was smart enough to see that this was complete BS the first time I saw him, though because of what he could do. People can "speculate" however they want. There were and still are people who "speculate" that Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Yoshi and Captain Falcon are really good (and not joking)!

Now, also, is that really balance if Snake has a 6-3 against every single other character other than those 4? Balance is the whole ball of wax, not just random aspects plucked out of context.

Then we have Game and Watch who has even better matchups then MK. So far Game and watch only loses to Marth and Toon link.

Yes, but that's not the sum of tier placing. What's important is not only the number of characters one has "bad matchups" against, and 4-5 isn't even a bad matchup! 4-5 is just an even matchup where one has a slight advantage! A bad matchup is at least 6-3 or 6-4 or something.

What's important besides how many "matchups in which one does not have the advantage" is also how big/small these advantages/disadvantages are. If Meta-Knight has 4-5's against Toon Link and Marth, it doesn't really matter that much if he then has 6-4's and 6-3s against everyone else below those while Marth and Toon Link does not (and instead have 5-5s, 5-4s and some 6-4s)(hypothetically).

How about the bottom? Captain falcon has two supposedly good matchups Squirtle and Ganondorf.

Jigglypuff has three good matchups supposedly also

The only character so far with no good matchups is Ganon yet his is normally ranked higher than both Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon. Some people even think he will move into low tier.

Your definition of "good" is pretty poor. Pray tell, are these 4-5 matchups as well?

Ganondorf is ranked higher because maybe Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon get curbstomped much more than he does. Let's say Jiggz has three "good", i.e. 4-5 matchups. Well, whoopity doo. Doesn't really mean much when every other matchup for her is at least a 6-4. Meanwhile, Ganondorf enjoys no 4-5 matchup in his favour but he's got far more 4-5s than Jigglypuff and far less "at least 6-4s" (and far less 10-0-ish ones). This is why he ends up higher than Jigglypuff.

It's the same for Fox in Melee. Why is Fox higher than Falco despite having 2 "bad" matchups whilst Falco only has one (and even that is disputed)? Character bias and bad voting aside, he just had a lot of much better matchups against everyone else in the game compared to Falco.

That is why the Tierlist is not the end-all of Competitive statistics as individual matchups are far more important.

Stuff about popularity

Pure speculation and nothing I can refute because it's, hey, pure speculation.

So which is more balanced? I don't see how you could say Melee is more balanced when provided with the accurate data.

What accurate data is this, really? You haven't provided any data to prove that Brawl is more balanced than Melee. You provided some data that's, um, data. And that could be employed to both games.

But I think melee is more balanced, why? Because balance isn't about what character can win in a tournament. It is about equal number of options provided to all characters. Now granted each character can walk, dodge, dash, attack, smash, tilt, jump, aerial, airdodge and so on. There are certain things that each character cannot do.

Brawl is less balanced as of now because the ATs are now more character specific. Peach can float. Metaknight, Kirby, jigglypuff, Dededee, Pit, and charizard have more than two jumps. Metaknight, Pit, and Charizard can glide and glide attack. Olimar, Ivy, ZSS, Link, Toon link, Samus, and Lucas have tether recoveries. Certain characters can wall cling, some can wall jump, others can do both, and so can do neither. That is why I think Brawl is less balanced.

That's not what balance is about, though.

A game can be balanced despite all of that. In fact, there are games like that that are. One usually thrown around example is the Guilty Gear XX-series (XX, #Reload, Isuka (not balanced and wholly hated), Slash and Accent Core).

* Every character has 2 jumps and one air dash. If they use up both jumps, they cannot airdash... except Millia Rage. She has 2 jumps and 2 air dashes. If she jumps only once, she can airdash twice. If she jumps twice, she can air dash only one.
* Jam has the ability to dizzy people much easier than anyone else because of the amount of dizzy-meter-addition her moves have, especially if charged via an ability only she has where she can perform moves that charge up one of four different Charges. Each charge would affect different aspects of her metagame, making certain move stronger/better/different. Why is dizzying important? Because not only can she dizzy people easily, she also has one of the game's fastest Destroys. Destroy is a One-Hit KO move each character possesses, only they aren't equally good. Jam's is one of the game's best. If you get dizzified against Jam, you just lost the round.
* Some characters (far from the majority) have air grabs... in other words, they can grab you while you're both in the air as opposed to just on the ground. Chip has an "airgrab" where he teleports to you and grabs you where you stand.
* Only certain characters could gatling combo from their grabs... some of these combos were very good.
* A.B.A. has a Special Dash where she dashes forward during which she is completely invulnerably and enjoys either frame advantage or frame neutrality upon completion. Her Force Break version gives her guaranteed frame advantage (as in I'm 100% certain it's an advantage) and has her dash forward a greater length (thus able to entirely outdash certain Overdrives, like Venom's Ball of Doom, for instance).
* With the introduction of Force Breaks, not every character has an Aerial (and thus secondary) Force Break, like, say, A.B.A.
* Millia enjoys two Special Rolls which let her enjoy some invincibility, as well. They also allow her to go through the opponent (I'm not sure if A.B.A. can do the same but she probably can). One is on the ground where she rolls straight forward. One is in the air where she rolls diagionally downwards.
* Some characters can make certain moves that aren't naturally unblockable unblockable through BS pressure combos that combine two diffferent moves, one of which is low and the other an overhead, making it impossible to block both at the same time, like, for instance, Eddie's combined creature-thingie with an overhead or whatever (I think) and Anji Moto's old butterfly in #Reload where the 2nd hit (if the 1st is blocked) was an overhead (he was still able to move, thus enabling him to perform a low, guaranteeing a hit).
* May's various Dolphin approaches.

And more. There are one jillion different character specific T's and AT's in the Guilty Gear XX-series, yet it's among one of the world's most balance game franchises. I haven't kept up but at least during the #Reload area, the Bottom Tiers each managed to win at least one of Japan's major tournaments! Anji Moto, May and Chip, who were all unviersally considered Bottom Tier, each won an SBO each, IIRC.

Heck, the game series is so balanced, the Tier list frequently changes and is disputed. Anji, May and Chip switched positions regularly during #Reload's lifespan because people just weren't sure of how much they "sucked" (but they could still win super-major tournaments!).

In fact, the GGXX-series does not in any way suffer the "Only Tops and Maybe Some Highs Winning Tournaments"-syndrome, despite being a franchise with so many character-specific... things.

 

[Yuna]

Brawl is much more balanced when taken in a professional player p.o.v. In brawl, any character can beat the other even though its a more difficult matchup for let's say a C.Falcon versus an MK. However, while there are some god tier characters in this game, in Melee, you picked a high tier= you placed high. in Brawl, skill is much more a factor, nots aying that Melee didnt have tech skillz but realistically, once u got the techs down they werent hard at all to reproduce. Every Brawl match is a different match as opposed to Melee where repetition was all around. The fact that brawl took out combos makes it for a fairer game. Longer combos= more unfairness since during that time u cant touch or do anything. (will post more later... hungry)

No. You're wrong. About pretty much everything. We've already been through why you're wrong and I don't feel like repeating myself so I suggest you backtrack a few pages and read up a little bit more.

ok its is really all about mindgames son. but that's the actual player not the game so it doesent matter. yes u can win from jsut one grab. 0->Death comboes really aren't that rare in Melee.

Really? Name some that aren't Fox's very character-specific infinites and don't require a wall, really low ceiling or walk-off edges (thus highly situational) or just two hits that prevent your opponent from recovering or a combo that ends in a semi-spike againt someone who doesn't DI and whose recovery sucks or a combo that ends with your opponent getting edgeguarded/edgehogged to death (because none of those are 0 to death combos). A combo is guaranteed from the first hit regardless of mashing, DI, teching or whatnot. It's not a combo if your opponent has a chance of escape.

I think the fact that you see a bigger diversity of characters played competitively in Brawl then there was in Melle already shows that some progress has been made in the balance department.

Game balance is not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter if 50% of the Competititve players of the world randomly start maining Yoshi. Yoshi will still suck. Also, diversity used is not at all relevant if there's almost no diversity in who places well. Heck, RDK said everything I wanted to say so I'll just quote him: Melee was just as diverse in its early stages as Brawl. It was actually MORE diverse if you look at tournament placings. Show me tournaments where anyone other than Snake or MK consistently make it into the top 5.

 

[Corigames]

Brawl is much more balanced when taken in a professional player p.o.v. In brawl, any character can beat the other even though its a more difficult matchup for let's say a C.Falcon versus an MK. However, while there are some god tier characters in this game, in Melee, you picked a high tier= you placed high. in Brawl, skill is much more a factor, nots aying that Melee didnt have tech skillz but realistically, once u got the techs down they werent hard at all to reproduce. Every Brawl match is a different match as opposed to Melee where repetition was all around. The fact that brawl took out combos makes it for a fairer game. Longer combos= more unfairness since during that time u cant touch or do anything. (will post more later... hungry)

Oh God... I don't feel well. I've gotten bad headaches from reading certain posts before... but this... Oh ...

Uh... I think I'm going to throw up. None of that made any... you have it all backw... no, what you said isn't...

BLARG!!!

 

[Blue sHell]

I'm sorry if alot of people don't like the truth situation, but Brawl is alot less balanced than Melee. It hurts to say, but it's becoming so obvious as the metagame develops that its almost sad. I'm sorry to say it, but its just true. The more and more tournaments I attend the more and more I see that certain characters just absolutely have no chance in beating top players even if they WOULD be at an even playing field if they used a different character.

Yesterday NJ's best Sonic main told me that he knew he'd never win a major tournament because of much as he tries DDDs, Snakes, G&Ws, and Metaknights in great hands just give him too little options to work with and even though he COULD technically win, at that level of play if you only have a certain amount of options and your opponent still has all of his, it's near impossible. He made it to the round right before the semifinals in the winner's bracket and was paired up with M2K. He ended up getting 3 stocked twice in a row against M2K's metaknight. This is the best Sonic in NJ, people have been saying the whole east coast. I've taken some rounds off M2K, but most of the time it comes down to the last stock and he beats me. And this Sonic beats other top players fairly well.... but just as long as they don't use about 5 of the top characters.

But this isn't my point, its just me throwing that out there for you all. Don't go spitting "THATS JUST SONIC!!!" on me.

The point I'm trying to make is that the top characters just absolutely handicap a HUGE amount of characters to the point that they literally have such little options that it's extremely unlikely for the lower character to win any major tournament if someone knows how to abuse and limit them so badly.

In Melee even G&Ws, Mewtwos, and Bowsers had a good chance of winning big tournaments because the game worked differently. In Melee it was rare when a certain character just absolutely limited another to the point that they couldn't do a majority of tactics. Sure there were certain matchups, but still. Because of Melee's techniques it was all about skill, knowledge, and prediction. Characters were different tools to use with all this(sure there were better tools than others, but the difference wasn't EXTREME). Whereas in Brawl, it seems like what character you play is just a tiny bit more important than skill, knowledge, and prediction. Brawl is a very matchup dependant game compared to Melee. I'm sorry, but its true. If you think otherwise then you obviously haven't attended offline tournaments.

Gimpyfish was the most prestigous Bowser main in Melee. He placed in tournaments left and right even despite saying "I know my character sucks, I've come to accept it and it has made me better". Now in Brawl he refuses to play singles due to the severity of how character matchup dependant the game is.

All though I have said all this though, know that I don't mean that Snake, Metaknight, and Metaknights are the only people who could win tournaments. My whole argument here isn't that use must be Top or High Tier to win tournys, that'd be stupid. I'm trying to say that the gap between the good characters and the bad characters is RIDICULOUUUUUUUSSSSSS in comparison to Melee. I think about 23 characters have a serious chance of winning a major tourny against the best of the best players. I also believe despite current rankings and tier guesses that some of these characters that could win are characters that have serious potential that hasn't been tapped as much as others. Bowser, Yoshi, and Mario come to mind. I'm aware that some of the bad characters I've spoken about during this whole post have actually placed well in some tournaments, but if they were in a tournament with the absolute best people in the world, I think things would turn out differently.


I hope some people actually took the time to read what I've had to say (especially Yuna who I see has very good points but is coming off a bit stronger so people are compelled to counter argument just for the sake of it).

 

[Revolutionary1804]

shellz makes a good argument one that would have to changed my point of view on this argument if i hadn't already switched sides. i beleive because of the disparity in the initial skill of a characther i.e:God Tier the game is really unbalanced. but to say melee is much more balanced is also not accurate. the balance of melee comes from ATs (which were not made purposly) and its still way harder for any Mewtwo to win against a Marth or something of the same skill.

the difference that makes the game (Brawl) unbalanced is the lack of punishability.

 

[Blue sHell]

I'm not saying Melee was the most balanced fighting game either. Only that it's more balanced than Brawl.

 

[AetherLord]

I'd say neither are more balanced...in melee a good fighter can crush you if they played long enough and you didnt while brawl is more of a fact winning by randomness instead of actual skill...

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Lower tiers could still win in Melee because the players were veterans who had been playing for 4-5 years. Brawl hasn't been out long enough for anyone to really have that kind of experience. I'm sure in a few years we'll have low tiers doing just as well (or just as badly) as in Melee.

 

[Blue sHell]

56k do you make those sigs yourself? Seriously too good.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lower tiers could still win in Melee because the players were veterans who had been playing for 4-5 years. Brawl hasn't been out long enough for anyone to really have that kind of experience. I'm sure in a few years we'll have low tiers doing just as well (or just as badly) as in Melee.

Well its not like the high tier players have any more experience than the low tier ones.

 

[Yuna]

shellz makes a good argument one that would have to changed my point of view on this argument if i hadn't already switched sides. i beleive because of the disparity in the initial skill of a characther i.e:God Tier the game is really unbalanced. but to say melee is much more balanced is also not accurate. the balance of melee comes from ATs (which were not made purposly) and its still way harder for any Mewtwo to win against a Marth or something of the same skill.

the difference that makes the game (Brawl) unbalanced is the lack of punishability.

Melee was balanced partially because of some of the ATs available (but not even those completely balanced the game since certain ATs favoured certain characters more... they just gave us more balance than, say, no ATs at all).

Whether they were intended or not (which for the most part, they were, the only widely used AT that wasn't fully intended was Wavedashing) is inconsequential. Tons of things in all fighting games, including those by major fighting game "houses" like Capcom (Street Fighter), Namco (Soul Calibur, Tekken) and Sammy (Guilty Gear) have unintended "things". And Smash is the only franchise whose userbase (and often even those who don't play Smash) often uses the term "unintended"!

So what if it is? The fact remains that if Melee was more balanced, then it was more balanced, unintended balance or not.

Lower tiers could still win in Melee because the players were veterans who had been playing for 4-5 years. Brawl hasn't been out long enough for anyone to really have that kind of experience. I'm sure in a few years we'll have low tiers doing just as well (or just as badly) as in Melee.

Then how come early in the game's lifespan, tourney results weren't confined to only 5 characters placing well with only two constitently winning? And why do High Tier players have such a huge advantage over Low Tier players in Brawl? It's not like the High Tier players have tons more experience than the Low Tier players.

 

[gantrain05]

Then how come early in the game's lifespan, tourney results weren't confined to only 5 characters placing well with only two constitently winning? And why do High Tier players have such a huge advantage over Low Tier players in Brawl? It's not like the High Tier players have tons more experience than the Low Tier players.

this i believe is just because of the easier learning curve of brawl, but yeah, neither game is really balanced but yeah as for right now, melee is the more balanced game but im sure as time goes on brawl will become more balanced than it is now.

 

[Fawriel]

I really wonder if there's any way you can predict how the game's going to develop...

Some say the game starts out balanced because we're still learning and the characters with the obvious advantages dominate for now, but soon people will learn to counter them with other characters.

I, on the other hand, assume that nothing is stopping people from developing the top of the tiers to such an extent that all the weaknesses they have left are covered perfectly and thus further increase the gap. What I mean is that Metaknight for instance has such an absurd relation of speed to range and own size that I wouldn't be surprised at all if people developed strategies that never leave them open at all to anything that doesn't outrange MK, which would mean that a character like Captain Falcon has absolutely no chance to do anything because nothing he does can get inside the range, and even if there is a tiny window in which MK leaves himself open, there would never be enough room for Falcon to get in any of his slow killers.
It would be the first time in the history of Smash that a match-up is practically impossible for one of the characters.

That's what I think will happen. But is there any possible way to find proof for this theory or the opposing one?

 

[Redson]

I personally believe that Brawl is more balanced than Melee for a few reasons. I would be glad to list a few.

In Melee, there were characters such as Mewtwo who directly benifitted from items due to his obvious ability to be knocked out of the arena, and his great throwing strength. Unfortunately, most tournaments did not allow items (Most tournaments still don't.) so Mewtwo players were more or less S.O.L. In Brawl, the equality is a double edged sword. All characters have even attacks, even falling speed, etc etc. They all have their own unique style. Some are strong but slow (See SNAKE for details) and yet some are fast and weak. (Hey Sonic!) Some are perfectly balanced. It's all balanced in the end for anyone to adapt instantly.

One of my friends actually pointed it out to me. Fox's "Nerfing" was no more than him being balanced as a character. Back in Melee, a character could win the fight, not the player. My friend, who played as Marth, came up to me a week after geting Brawl and told me, "Marth is a lot more difficult to use in Brawl. His meteor smash doesn't give as much of a "kick" as it used to. He really just isn't my style, I mean I can use him, but he isn't as overpowered as he was in Melee."

He regarded it as a double edged sword, as I do.

Consequently, this messes with our friend THE METAGAME.

We all know how hard it is for you guys to make tiers now that every character is balanced. This brings complaints and compliments from Tourney***s and Casual***s alike. (I'm using 4chan lingo because I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with it.) Some people want to do away with tiers and just have a game based on skill instead of character. Some people want to have the tiers, for reasons I will not assume. I personally do not like tiers, but I respect others opinions and have nothing to say against them.

TL:DR

The honest to gods truth is that while Brawl IS more balanced, it doesn't particularly mean it's a better game. Everyone's opinion is different, and I'm sure some people will always prefer Melee over Brawl or vice-versa.

 

[DD151]

i strongly recall a topic on the melee boards where it was argued that items play would hurt mewtwo more than it would help it.

i also can't believe that you would portray fox's transition as a conscious attempt at balancing while at the same time the developers consciously introduced imbalanced new characters.

 

[Yuna]

In Melee, there were characters such as Mewtwo who directly benifitted from items due to his obvious ability to be knocked out of the arena, and his great throwing strength. Unfortunately, most tournaments did not allow items (Most tournaments still don't.) so Mewtwo players were more or less S.O.L.

Umm... as opposed to in Brawl, where there's, for instance, Glide Tossing? Ever seen a Peach sliding 1/3rd of Final Destination at you throwing a turnip? Not compare that to a character who cannot Glide Toss, like, I don't know, Lucario (I don't think he can)?

Also, there are, obvious, still people with great item throwing strength. Heck, there are lots of characters without good item throwing but that are still easy to be knocked out of the arena.

In Brawl, the equality is a double edged sword. All characters have even attacks, even falling speed, etc etc. They all have their own unique style. Some are strong but slow (See SNAKE for details) and yet some are fast and weak. (Hey Sonic!) Some are perfectly balanced. It's all balanced in the end for anyone to adapt instantly.

1) All characters do not have "even attacks". In fact, it's not even "most" characters have even atacks.
2) All characters do not have an even falling speed. Everyone's just generally more floaty but Fox is still a fastfaller, which is why Sheik's F-tilt Lock and Squirtle's U-Tilt Lock work so well on him but not on Jigglypuff.
2) Everyone had "their own unique styles" in Melee as well. Even Doctor Mario and Mario were played differently. This is not new in any way.
3) Some are strong but slow? As opposed to in Melee? Some are fast and weak? As opposed to in Melee?
4) Some are perfectly balanced?! Like who?

One of my friends actually pointed it out to me. Fox's "Nerfing" was no more than him being balanced as a character. Back in Melee, a character could win the fight, not the player. My friend, who played as Marth, came up to me a week after geting Brawl and told me, "Marth is a lot more difficult to use in Brawl. His meteor smash doesn't give as much of a "kick" as it used to. He really just isn't my style, I mean I can use him, but he isn't as overpowered as he was in Melee."

The player always won the match. Characters just made it easier or harder to win.

Fox was nerfed. They tried to balance him. They didn't end up doing that very well since he's still leaps and bounds better than Captain Falcon and Snake is in turn leaps and bounds better than Fox. In other words, they just nerfed him. The overall balance of the game, not so good.

Your friend can tell you anything and you'll automatically believe him? Marth isn't "a lot more difficult" to use in Brawl. He's just different. Different =/= Difficult. Marth's strengths have just changed around. And he's still very overpowered because he's among the Top 6 or so characters in the game with the bottom 10 being really, really bad.

He regarded it as a double edged sword, as I do.

Consequently, this messes with our friend THE METAGAME.

Inconsequential misguided opinions by less knowledgable people.

We all know how hard it is for you guys to make tiers now that every character is balanced. This brings complaints and compliments from Tourney***s and Casual***s alike. (I'm using 4chan lingo because I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with it.) Some people want to do away with tiers and just have a game based on skill instead of character. Some people want to have the tiers, for reasons I will not assume. I personally do not like tiers, but I respect others opinions and have nothing to say against them..

I just called you less knowledgable people becuse you just called me a tourneyqueer. We do not "want" tiers. Tiers exist whether or not we want them. If you cannot grasp that, then you do not know what tiers really are.

The honest to gods truth is that while Brawl IS more balanced, it doesn't particularly mean it's a better game. Everyone's opinion is different, and I'm sure some people will always prefer Melee over Brawl or vice-versa.

Again with the opinions. You've presented no valid arguments for why Brawl is more balanced. Most of your post was simple opinion, either that of your friend's or your own. "My friend and I think...". The few fact-based arguments you did present failed since they were either incorrect and applied to both games.

 

[Redson]

i strongly recall a topic on the melee boards where it was argued that items play would hurt mewtwo more than it would help it.

i also can't believe that you would portray fox's transition as a conscious attempt at balancing while at the same time the developers consciously introduced imbalanced new characters.

Hey hey whoah. Lets not start getting angry here. I speak straight from OPINION here, nothing more.

I can point out things I find flawed with every character, even the ones I consider myself best with. For instance, Lucario is high risk, and his most powerful attacks are slow. The only way to get some real damage in is to put yourself in danger.

Snake is brutally cheap when it comes to smashes, but he's all trap based. A cautious player could easily beat him.

Wolf is slow, and while his attacks are fast and powerful, he has a horrible edge sweetspot, and the lack of decent recovery doesn't help.

Toon Link is faster than link, easier to form combos with, and has a much more powerful down air. However, he's also lighter and can be KO'd at relatively low %'s.

Everyone has some sort of flaw. No one is perfect in Brawl.

 

[Yuna]

Hey hey whoah. Lets not start getting angry here. I speak straight from OPINION here, nothing more.

Umm... where in his post did he "start getting angry"?

Also, this is not a thread to be speaking of only opinions. This is a thread strongly in need of facts. Yes, you will be expressing your opinion, but you'll need facts to back them up.

"I think Brawl is more balanced than Melee." - Umm... ok? Go away.
"I think Brawl is more balanced than Melee because..." - Finally, now we can get a discussion going.

 

[TehBo49]

@ Redson: But while everyone has weaknesses, some characters weaknesses are larger, more numerous, or easier to exploit. The reverse is true for their strengths. That is why the game is imbalanced.

 

[Redson]

Well Yuna, I can't tell you with a straight face that you didn't get me there.

I have seen balanced characters, like the character who's been the same throughout the entire series, Mario.
Yes, you are right. There are slow but powerful characters in melee as well as in Brawl.
Yes, you are right. There are fast but weak characters in Melee as well as in Brawl. They both had the same things, yeah. I've found these little problems to be more evident in Brawl.

That's just me.

Next argument.

I played Marth myself in Melee. I enjoyed his play style, and I thought Roy was a wee bit too slow for my tastes. I got Brawl three weeks after my friend wondering if there were control issues or somthing in Brawl. I found that Marth WAS a little harder to control, and his attacks WERE weaker. I spoke from experience there too.

Next arguement.

I have seen PLENTY of people around the Super Smash Brothers community who DO want tiers. And yes, I do know what TIERS are. Tiers are how well a character can do under the fast paced tournament rules. Some characters are generally regarded as weaker due to reliance on items or slowness and inability to combo.

Sorry, sorry. I don't want to argue here. I just wanted to state my point.

And as for the original thing I mentioned, item using characters like Mewtwo? Sorry, you got me there. I can't fight back against that one.

 

[gantrain05]

i strongly recall a topic on the melee boards where it was argued that items play would hurt mewtwo more than it would help it.

i also can't believe that you would portray fox's transition as a conscious attempt at balancing while at the same time the developers consciously introduced imbalanced new characters.

meh, all they did to fox was SLIGHTLY tone down his Usmash.....its still broken.

 

[DD151]

Sorry, sorry. I don't want to argue here. I just wanted to state my point.

you can have x amount of people in this topic stating their opinions with no expectations of argument and the topic won't get anywhere. apologies if i came off as rude to you in the first post.

meh, all they did to fox was SLIGHTLY tone down his Usmash.....its still broken.

and uthrow uair, and vertical/horizontal speed, and nair usmash, and...

 

[Yuna]

I have seen balanced characters, like the character who's been the same throughout the entire series, Mario.

Only it's not really balance if only a few characters are "well-rounded" while tons are "sucky" or "broken". You know, Melee had well-rounded characters as well. Like, say, Mario. Again, this is nothing new, nothing that shows that Brawl is more balanced.

Yes, you are right. There are slow but powerful characters in melee as well as in Brawl.
Yes, you are right. There are fast but weak characters in Melee as well as in Brawl. They both had the same things, yeah. I've found these little problems to be more evident in Brawl.

If the problems are more evident in Brawl, then why bring it up as if in favour of Brawl being more balanced? If the "problems are more evident in Brawl", then that means Brawl is less balanced.

I played Marth myself in Melee. I enjoyed his play style, and I thought Roy was a wee bit too slow for my tastes. I got Brawl three weeks after my friend wondering if there were control issues or somthing in Brawl. I found that Marth WAS a little harder to control, and his attacks WERE weaker. I spoke from experience there too.

Some of his attacks were weaker. Some were stronger. Considered how pretty much everyone were universally nerfed when it came to knockback and KO-ability, Marth didn't get the short end of the stick, especially since he was barely nerfed. If you just look at Marth as a single character and compare him to his Melee incarnation, yes, he's weaker now. If he take a deeper look and compare him to everyone else in Brawl, it's evident he's still Top Tier-ish material despite these "nerfed".

Maybe he was "harder to control" to you because he needs to be played differently now. Marth is one of the easiest characters in the game to control becasue of his auto-cancels and IASA frames.

I have seen PLENTY of people around the Super Smash Brothers community who DO want tiers. And yes, I do know what TIERS are. Tiers are how well a character can do under the fast paced tournament rules. Some characters are generally regarded as weaker due to reliance on items or slowness and inability to combo.

Some people like ****** kittens as well. What stupid people like/want/do is inconsequential and why did you even bring it up in the thread? This thread is about which game is more balanced, Brawl or Melee, not tiers (though a related subject) or how many people want huge gaps between the tiers. You randomly brought it up without a good reason.

and uthrow uair, and vertical/horizontal speed, and nair usmash, and...

But those are universal nerfs pretty much everyone received, so in the grand scheme of things, Fox didn't lose much. Uthrow to Uair was also DI-able (the Uthrow could be DI:ed by, among others, Peach, to prevent the Uair from connecting) and Smash-DI-able. Everyone became floatier and Fox is still a Fastfaller.

Fox still has Dair to Usmash/U-tilt/Grab. And the fact that one of his strongest attacks, Upsmash, was barely nerfed shows that Sakurai isn't really that smart.

I can point out things I find flawed with every character, even the ones I consider myself best with. For instance, Lucario is high risk, and his most powerful attacks are slow. The only way to get some real damage in is to put yourself in danger.

Everyone had flaws in Melee was well.

Fox and Falco were fastfallers and were easily comboed by pretty much everyone in the entire games. Combos that wouldn't in a million years work on others worked on them. Falco's recovery also sucked, making it really easy to gimp edgeguard and gimp edgehog him. Because they were fastfallers and had horrible air recovery time (the faster you fall, the more hitstun you receive), edgeguards that wouldn't in a million years stun "normal" characters enough to prevent them from immediately Up B back onto the stage worked on them.

Falco's Firebird had one fatal flaw: It had no hitbox while charging so if you think he's going to/see him start it up, just jump out and hit him and he's pretty much dead meat. Falco also fell slightly faster than Fox (I think) and his hitbox was bigger, making it easier to chaingrab him than Fox (for instance, it's easier for Peach to chaingrab Falco than Fox).

Fox, however, suffered from much less priority than Falco.

Sheik's recovery was pretty bad. Whenever she's forced to recover onto the stage and not grab the ledge, she's a sitting duck, especially against the Top Tiers and High Tiers who all had effective edgeguards against her. Falco could Fsmash her. Fox could Usmash her. Marth would U-tilt, Fsmash or Bthrow/Fthrow her off the edge again. Peach could dsmash her with her back to the edge, making Sheik fly off the edge again (this could be crouch-canceled, though). Captain Falcon could Fair her. Ganondorf and ICs could chaingrab her into a KO-move.

Marth got owned by projectiles and camp... hard. Runaway spam him, edgeguard him with projectiles. His recovery is also very predictable and not really all that good. He also had to tipper everything to KO and he lost his ability to combo into a KO-move onto the opponent had approximately 90-ish%.

Peach was really floaty and suffered chaingrabbing and throw-combos from a large portion of the cast. Her moves, while high in priority were short in range and her sweetspots didn't stay out for very long, with the non-sweetspots being exceptionally weak (like, say, the last part of Nair or Dsmash). She also couldn't KO reliably until the opponent had around 150%-ish unless the stage was really small (but Peach hated those stages). She had absolutely no combos into a KO-move besides Dair into Dsmash but even that was crouch cancellable and/or shieldable/rollable/airdodgable. Her throws didn't guarantee a single combo unless on fastfallers and her Fthrow required 150%-160%-ish to kill on normally sized stages.

I could go on. Flaws existing within characters is not new to Brawl.

Snake is brutally cheap when it comes to smashes, but he's all trap based. A cautious player could easily beat him.

Then how about you go around beating good Snakes? And how come Snakes are dominating the tournament scene? Are all of their opponents randomly not being cautious against him? He doesn't need to actually trap you, it's just that he does it so well there's no reason not to try to.

Wolf is slow, and while his attacks are fast and powerful, he has a horrible edge sweetspot, and the lack of decent recovery doesn't help.

Since when was Wolf ever in the running to be among the very top of Brawl, anyway? Flaws in Mid tier and below, not anything new.

Toon Link is faster than link, easier to form combos with, and has a much more powerful down air. However, he's also lighter and can be KO'd at relatively low %'s.

No he can't. He can be KO:ed at relatively low %s if you compare to heavyweights but compared to, say, you know, Mario, not that much difference.

Everyone has some sort of flaw. No one is perfect in Brawl.

No one is ever perfect. Snake has no flaws. He's just got things he excels less at. Point out concrete flaws in Snake, please.