Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Trapt497]

You are a great person.

Was that sarcasm, or a complement for me not spreading my opinion like nobody's buisness even if my opinion is based on nothing? (like some people here do)

If it was sarcasm than my bad, just tellin it like it is.

He brought up a valid point, and you didn't even really counter it. When he said that the top melee players got more respect than top Brawl players, he's right. And why even call it a fairy tale if your next sentence goes into a different topic.


And it's mediocre. kk

"I don't think there is a respect war, actually. I simply believe that Brawl is less technical than Melee! I don't think people realize this."

I think we realized it was less technical before the god **** thing shipped, dude.

Lol at the last statement. Yeah I agree. But does less technical make melee much that more balenced? Yes or no?

 

[DMG]

But, we're talking about balance on this thread, not who respects who. Like I said, respect doesn't matter - it's what's balanced, and what's not balanced.

Of course this thread is about debating which of the two games is more balanced, but I felt like pointing out something interesting that might help both sides come to an understanding point. Although this thread asks an innocent, honest question about balance, it has also probably unintentionally intensified the ongoing "war" of Melee vs Brawl, and it saddens me that something destructive like that "war" has taken place.

I wasn't overly concerned about who respected who, I just personally think it seems like a respect War, or that a loss of respect for both sides started this mess. If you think my respect story was just a whimsical fairytale, then go ask a Top Melee pro and a Top Brawl pro about the respect they get individually. The Melee guy probably got a lot more respect back then before Brawl came out, since after Brawl came out a lot of people had a bad opinion of Smash in general, while the Brawl player would probably believe he would get more respect if people weren't always dismissing his game as a party game or a casual game.

So both sides have reached a point in time where the respect they get seems lower than it should be, and one side is gonna blame the other for the diminish of respect and vice versa. You don't have to agree about my opinion, but you can't just dismiss it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Melee was more balanced because the bad characters had some sort of fighting chance due to the AT's. Brawl has some massive ****ing counters to due to gay, completely, or nearly inescapable things. A good Falco can easily 0 to death an Ike by grabbing him, getting him off stage, and spiking him. Same thing with tons of other characters.

There are more viable characters (and even a lot of them have some really embarrassing counters) in Brawl, but I think a huge reason for that is lol, more characters.

 

[Fawriel]

Not only ATs, the ability to edgeguard as well. And even basic combos. Every character in Melee had the ability to KO another character early through clever comboing and edgeguarding. In Brawl, some characters just can't KO, and others can't BE KO'd.

Was that sarcasm, or a complement for me not spreading my opinion like nobody's buisness even if my opinion is based on nothing? (like some people here do)

If it was sarcasm than my bad, just tellin it like it is.

I was being entirely sincere. Apparently a certain level of humility and respect is something you just cannot expect people to have anymore. So it's very refreshing to see a new face saying "I know that I know nothing", which is, in the end, the only knowledge anyone can be entirely sure of.

 

[AlexX]

Not only ATs, the ability to edgeguard as well. And even basic combos. Every character in Melee had the ability to KO another character early through clever comboing and edgeguarding.

But that doesn't mean they were all viable.

In Brawl, some characters just can't KO, and others can't BE KO'd.

While I admit some characters lack reliable KO moves, saying some characters can't die is an exaggeration. Some are harder to kill than others, but none are incapable of being KO'd.

 

[Corigames]

While I admit some characters lack reliable KO moves, saying some characters can't die is an exaggeration. Some are harder to kill than others, but none are incapable of being KO'd.

Taking things over literally doesn't make you look witty or smart, just annoying. You know what he meant.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Corey glitched the page.

 

[Falconv1.0]

But that doesn't mean they were all viable.

If you think that was the point I was trying to make you're bat**** crazy.

 

[gantrain05]

i don't know a ton about the balance of melee, i got into the competetive scene as brawl was coming out, and as for balance, all i've ever seen at every melee tourney i've been to, is falco, fox, marth, and shiek are the only characters to ever win, thats like...16 or so tourneys i've been to, and those 4 are the only ones to win, sure, i've seen falcons and peaches and even dr. mario, but they never win, they can tech around all day long, and make it look like its an even fight, but as soon as falco waveshine > jump > spike > edgehog, its over, every single time.

now as for brawl tourneys that i've been to, its true that snake and MK seem to be placing very well, i won't deny that, but i've also seen many other respectable players do very very well with characters that everyone seems to dismiss and say, "oh, well snake is still broken so brawl is more unbalanced" even yesterday i saw a mario and a luigi totally owning everyone at the tourney all day long, every character everyone picked, they would win 95% of the time, so honestly i think brawl is just more about learning your spacing and having to think on your feet rather than just pulling off combo after combo.

i'm not picking a side, but i think brawl gets bashed on too hard from pro melee people who actually never got into brawl enough to even judge it the way that it has been judged, sure, theres less AT's but competetiveness isn't determined by the amount of AT's available, if that were true, how is chess competetive? or any FPS, bottom line is, a game is competetive when u make it competetive, its not the game its the players.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Taking things over literally doesn't make you look witty or smart, just annoying. You know what he meant.

I'm going to use this whenever Yuna gets into a grammer war.

And I have noticed Gantrain's point in action. At a local tourney, I believe a ZSS/Peach team won doubles, and reguardless of hype, there were more Pikachus than Metaknights in singles. Low tier characters were rare, but middle through high tier characters had a huge amount of variety.

 

[IrArby]

Combos totally DON'T involve thinking on your feet. Its all plug and go. Its just like putting in a Tenstring in Tekken right but easier with less thinking?

And Chess is totally unbalanced too you're right! Each character has different un-even pieces than the other guy. And ATs that help add balance to game don't make it more compeititive since ATs that help = balance don't = more competitiveness. And games designed SPECIFICALLY to NOT be competitive can TOTALLY be competitive if you just play them that way. ANything can be competitive if you want!

(My Sarcasm lvl is over 9000!)

 

[Zankoku]

I'm going to use this whenever Yuna gets into a grammer war.

And I have noticed Gantrain's point in action. At a local tourney, I believe a ZSS/Peach team won doubles, and reguardless of hype, there were more Pikachus than Metaknights in singles. Low tier characters were rare, but middle through high tier characters had a huge amount of variety.

Yeah, Midwest is pretty strange. I don't think the top8-level players around here actually pay attention to theoretical tierlists LOL

Local tourney earlier today

1 Omniswell (Wolf/ICs)
2 Ankoku (Sheik/Marth)
3 AJ (Wario/Olimar)
4 RoboticSithDrone (Olimar)
5 Vayseth (Dedede/MK)
5 The Mann (Luigi)
7 Dre (ROB)
7 Mike (Lucas)

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Interesting...

Neither the northeast nor the midwest put much stock into tier theory, and as long as the character is somewhat good, he/she/it/they gets used.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

really? but how do all the other regions look?

 

[Zankoku]

Largely Snake, Meta Knight, Dedede, G&W, and sometimes Marth and ROB in East Coast.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Largely Snake, Meta Knight, Dedede, G&W, and sometimes Marth and ROB in East Coast.

I did see a lot of that, but there was a little more variety than that.

Then again, I don't live in Troy New York.

 

[Zankoku]

I wasn't aware there was a Troy in New York. Do they even have smash players over there?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Sorry, I saw Troy and had no idea what MI stood for. Maine, perhaps?

Yes there is a Troy New York (next to Albany), RPI is the name of the campus there, and there are smash tournaments on campus.

 

[Yuna]

I was gone for three days and I don't wanna have to wade through the probably 5 or so pages of new posts that were posted during my absense. Thus, I auto-ignored them all. Please link me to a post if you feel that I should read it (like, if, say, it was a reply to a post of mine).

 

[Onxy]

Yeah, Midwest is pretty strange. I don't think the top8-level players around here actually pay attention to theoretical tierlists LOL

Local tourney earlier today

1 Omniswell (Wolf/ICs)
2 Ankoku (Sheik/Marth)
3 AJ (Wario/Olimar)
4 RoboticSithDrone (Olimar)
5 Vayseth (Dedede/MK)
5 The Mann (Luigi)
7 Dre (ROB)
7 Mike (Lucas)

Well that's a good thing I guess; considering that it's not filled with Snake.

 

[Trapt497]

I was being entirely sincere. Apparently a certain level of humility and respect is something you just cannot expect people to have anymore. So it's very refreshing to see a new face saying "I know that I know nothing", which is, in the end, the only knowledge anyone can be entirely sure of.

Yay!! Haha. Thought so, just makin sure.

Yeah, Midwest is pretty strange. I don't think the top8-level players around here actually pay attention to theoretical tierlists LOL

Local tourney earlier today

1 Omniswell (Wolf/ICs)
2 Ankoku (Sheik/Marth)
3 AJ (Wario/Olimar)
4 RoboticSithDrone (Olimar)
5 Vayseth (Dedede/MK)
5 The Mann (Luigi)
7 Dre (ROB)
7 Mike (Lucas)

Nice. Thats interesting. I love the variety. AND LUIGI GETS SOME RECOGNITION whoo hoo.

Well that's a good thing I guess; considering that it's not filled with Snake.

Yup.

 

[Onxy]

Good for me too, 'cause Wolf is on top, and there are two Olimars.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Generally the winners at my tourney at my tourney are MK or Snake, but even in those matches people use others, one guy used Pika against Snake, etc.

As for all around, I dun have a list, but we've got Kirby's, Wolf's, Diddy's, even some Weegees. Pretty much anything that isn't complete ********, lol.

 

[Fawriel]

I've had a small conversation with eyesore via PM. I'm going to copy a reply of mine here because I think it's a pretty decent explanation of the whole situation to newbies in general.


---------------------
"Evidence" is hard to find and judge in an issue like this. You'll have to accept that. The issue of "balance" is a very, very abstract one. You can't just keep looking around and finally find a big sign that says "this is how balanced this game is". The "evidence" used to measure a game's competitive balance is not just a bunch of items labeled "Exhibit A" and "Exhibit B", it's a complex system using every single element of the game.

If I don't have a grasp of every element of the game, including not only characters' stats, but how they correlate to one another in the context of the physics and rules of the game, my "feelings" are pretty much worthless.

The reason inexperienced people are shunned in that thread is because they just don't have that grasp. Most of them are missing simple facts like the size of Snake's hitboxes or slightly more complex ones like the effect easy shielding has on aerial approaches. An incomplete opinion just doesn't have the same claim to truth that a professional opinion has.

There's also the problem that abstract concepts need to be well-defined. New players will often feel that the game is more balanced because they only remember the days of Melee where the Space Animals dominated. But that was only at the top levels of play where everyone had amazing control over their character of choice. You are not at this level, so the "objective" balance of the game doesn't apply to you to the same extent. The balance everyone is talking about is the balance that is reached when every character is played to their fullest potential. It is assumed that both players have perfect knowledge of their character as well as their opponents', both are at the highest level of skill and equally smart. If all of that doesn't apply, your impression of balance is incomplete.

Opinions and feelings alone just don't work as arguments. You feel the game is more balanced because it feels like you have more control over what happens even if you lose. On the contrary, I have the feeling that this is just an illusion that was deliberately infused into the game's physics to make you feel that it's balanced.
Say you are facing a wavedashing Fox who knows his schtick and you are comboed to death and only get a few hits in the whole time. The match is over quickly and you feel horrible because you only got a couple chances to fight back.
In Brawl, you're facing an equally skilled Snake. He wins by the same margin as the Fox player, and you only get to do a little damage to him, but you feel better about it because it seemed like you had more chances to get hits in. But the result is exactly the same if you look at it objectively.
Of course, without combos, you probably do have more chances to get hits in. The Snake player will probably be at pretty high damage by the end, while the Fox player perhaps wasn't. However, damage means different things in both games. In Brawl, some characters survive forever, and some characters can't KO, while some characters have the ability to KO absurdly easily, and a few have horrid recoveries.
In Melee, the best Fox could be edgeguarded once he's off the stage, which can happen at around 50%. In Brawl, you'd need a miracle to happen if you're planning to KO Snake with your Yoshi at anything less than 100%.

You feel that way, I feel this way. Since neither of us are extremely experienced, that is all we can work with, and we're not getting anywhere. I'll just have to accept that you feel that way, and you'll have to accept that I feel this way. That's why the discussion is dominated by the experienced players - we just don't have the same capabilities of judging the complex system of a game as someone who has been playing games like this one for years at a high level. We'll just have to trust that they are objective enough and take their educated opinions as evidence.

 

[Fletch]

SNIP

Absolutely beautiful, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[wolfbrawl]

More balanced. There are way more variety of mains.

 

[ShadowLink84]

more variety=/=more balance

 

[Fletch]

More balanced. There are way more variety of mains.

Maybe you should provide some evidence to back up this claim instead of just spouting off your opinion.

 

[motsalogeL]

More balanced because the items are more powerful.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I love you, Fawriel. I miss talking to you on Yahell.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Fawriel]

I love you, Fawriel. I miss talking to you on Yahell.

Smooth Criminal

Criminal, oh Criminal, wherefore art thou Criminal?


*pokehugs*

 

[mood4food77]

the most recent tournament i was at had i think a total of 2 people who used snake in singles, it was mainly meta and gdubs, i was the only wario, there were like 3 d3s

but other than that, huge variety (no marths), there were 2 diddys and a kirby player in there, a few ICs

i mean, there is definitely going to be variety here

 

[Black Mantis]

Tripping is the only thing that makes this game a bit unbalanced.

 

[payasofobia]

Tripping is the only thing that makes this game a bit unbalanced.

You got it wrong, tripping is the only truly balanced thing about this game.

Every character has the same probability of tripping, and, sometimes, tripping can save you from being chaingrabbed.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No, the characters lack balance, and they trip.

EDIT: Fawriel has a point, although I am not sure if we can have an interesting discussion in which we both recognize the other's immovability as a factor in the debate, reguardless of whether or not we truely think that we can change someone's mind on a subject.

In short - we can't change anyone else's opinion (and opinion is technically all either side has), but the attempt makes the discussion interesting.

 

[ShadowLink84]

How to change someone's opinion in 3 simple steps.

1. Have an intelligent, logical discussion with them.
2. Discuss why their points are invalid and provide additional reasoning.
3. If the person ignores reasoning, smash them in the head with a brick. Ten times.


Hopefully you get to step 3 since its the most fun.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

How to change someone's opinion in 3 simple steps.

1. Have an intelligent, logical discussion with them.
2. Discuss why their points are invalid and provide additional reasoning.
3. If the person ignores reasoning, smash them in the head with a brick. Ten times.


Hopefully you get to step 3 since its the most fun.

Step 2 only works if their points can be proven invalid better than they can prove your points invalid. Whoever is the most unreasonable will start chucking bricks at the other.

 

[Boat Mode]

mk lol

nuff said

 

[ShadowLink84]

Step 2 only works if their points can be proven invalid better than they can prove your points invalid. Whoever is the most unreasonable will start chucking bricks at the other.

That depends. In science there isn't such a thing as proving as more as being more right.
As in there is more information saying this is better than the other.


You know what lets add a step 4

Step4: If you are the non violent type, bribe them with cookies!

 

[Falconv1.0]

I've had a small conversation with eyesore via PM. I'm going to copy a reply of mine here because I think it's a pretty decent explanation of the whole situation to newbies in general.


---------------------
"Evidence" is hard to find and judge in an issue like this. You'll have to accept that. The issue of "balance" is a very, very abstract one. You can't just keep looking around and finally find a big sign that says "this is how balanced this game is". The "evidence" used to measure a game's competitive balance is not just a bunch of items labeled "Exhibit A" and "Exhibit B", it's a complex system using every single element of the game.

If I don't have a grasp of every element of the game, including not only characters' stats, but how they correlate to one another in the context of the physics and rules of the game, my "feelings" are pretty much worthless.

The reason inexperienced people are shunned in that thread is because they just don't have that grasp. Most of them are missing simple facts like the size of Snake's hitboxes or slightly more complex ones like the effect easy shielding has on aerial approaches. An incomplete opinion just doesn't have the same claim to truth that a professional opinion has.

There's also the problem that abstract concepts need to be well-defined. New players will often feel that the game is more balanced because they only remember the days of Melee where the Space Animals dominated. But that was only at the top levels of play where everyone had amazing control over their character of choice. You are not at this level, so the "objective" balance of the game doesn't apply to you to the same extent. The balance everyone is talking about is the balance that is reached when every character is played to their fullest potential. It is assumed that both players have perfect knowledge of their character as well as their opponents', both are at the highest level of skill and equally smart. If all of that doesn't apply, your impression of balance is incomplete.

Opinions and feelings alone just don't work as arguments. You feel the game is more balanced because it feels like you have more control over what happens even if you lose. On the contrary, I have the feeling that this is just an illusion that was deliberately infused into the game's physics to make you feel that it's balanced.
Say you are facing a wavedashing Fox who knows his schtick and you are comboed to death and only get a few hits in the whole time. The match is over quickly and you feel horrible because you only got a couple chances to fight back.
In Brawl, you're facing an equally skilled Snake. He wins by the same margin as the Fox player, and you only get to do a little damage to him, but you feel better about it because it seemed like you had more chances to get hits in. But the result is exactly the same if you look at it objectively.
Of course, without combos, you probably do have more chances to get hits in. The Snake player will probably be at pretty high damage by the end, while the Fox player perhaps wasn't. However, damage means different things in both games. In Brawl, some characters survive forever, and some characters can't KO, while some characters have the ability to KO absurdly easily, and a few have horrid recoveries.
In Melee, the best Fox could be edgeguarded once he's off the stage, which can happen at around 50%. In Brawl, you'd need a miracle to happen if you're planning to KO Snake with your Yoshi at anything less than 100%.

You feel that way, I feel this way. Since neither of us are extremely experienced, that is all we can work with, and we're not getting anywhere. I'll just have to accept that you feel that way, and you'll have to accept that I feel this way. That's why the discussion is dominated by the experienced players - we just don't have the same capabilities of judging the complex system of a game as someone who has been playing games like this one for years at a high level. We'll just have to trust that they are objective enough and take their educated opinions as evidence.

I am ****ing saving this post. Absolutely amazing.