Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Fabrian]

you guys say yoshi? I say pichu...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i miss Pichu. but he's not in brawl.......

 

[Fabrian]

Yeah he was like the Dan from street fighters... just for the lols... too bad there's none of that in brawl =/.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Wario? I'd say he's the closest to a joke character...but unlike most joke characters Wario is actually good

 

[illboyzeus]

Yoshi is garbage, deal with it. If you play him you will never win a tourney, ever, he is just useless. Bad recovery, low priority, low speed, terrible shield...need I go on?

 

[metaXzero]

R.O.B.'s closer then Wario. Though he's also good.

Also Jigglyzelda, I keep thinking you're some1 else...

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi is garbage, deal with it. If you play him you will never win a tourney, ever, he is just useless. Bad recovery, low priority, low speed, terrible shield...need I go on?

Yes because so far, you're only 20% accurate with your claims.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

while that may seem fairer to compare, you will see mostly top characters used in tourneys, especially later in the tourneys closer to the finals.

also tiers do take into consideration the characters matchups against all the other characters don't they?

O.K., how about Snake v. Luigi, Mario, and PT as compared to Fox v. Pichu, Bowser, and Mewtwo?

 

[General_Zod]

I sincerly hope that was a joke.

It was ^^. People complain about melee revolving around 5 characters, and in brawl metaknight and snake are the only ones winning tournaments. And they still call brawl "a balanced game". ^^

 

[illboyzeus]

Yes because so far, you're only 20% accurate with your claims.

Who has one a major tourney with Yoshi? WTF, can he even do (and I don't saying this from inexperience, but from a rhetorical point) Show me a Yoshi beating a competent Meta, then we'll talk

 

[Fabrian]

Er Yoshi isn't all that bad actually I find that good yoshis are extremely good at racking up the damage... and the fact that he slides a lot makes it even better for him. Especially when you want to dodge then pivot grab.

He's as garbage as you'll get in brawl but if thats garbage, then wow ?

And 56k I forgot about wario but yeah at least he can kick your *** and do that annoying laugh at the score screen. Wario accomplishes at creating a "serious joke" which doesn't even make sense as a phrase...

 

[AzSvFeZ]

Um, Melee is more balanced, because the tier list didn't matter so much, I've seen great Falco players lose to great Pikachu and Peach and Yoshi players in tournaments, but Snakes and occasionally Metaknight's are at the top in brawl.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Yoshi is garbage, deal with it. If you play him you will never win a tourney, ever, he is just useless. Bad recovery, low priority, low speed, terrible shield...need I go on?

its not that impossible b/c , in the hands of a god, Yoshi is not useless lol. he's no where near slow. He may not win Tourneys but good Yoshis can place well.

R.O.B.'s closer then Wario. Though he's also good.

Also Jigglyzelda, I keep thinking you're some1 else...

Really? who do i keep getting mixed up with?

 

[Fabrian]

Um, Melee is more balanced, because the tier list didn't matter so much, I've seen great Falco players lose to great Pikachu and Peach and Yoshi players in tournaments, but Snakes and occasionally Metaknight's are at the top in brawl.

dude the bottom tier was total ****ake in melee...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

1: M2K (Dedede/MK)
2: Reflex (Wario)
3: Cort (Snake)
4: AfroThundah (Snake)
5: HRNut
5: Inui
7: Needle of Juntahh
7: Fearless
9: Rx-
9: Hylian
9: Colbol
9: xYz
13: Bonesaw
13: Redhalberd
13: Equi
13: Seibrik
17: Tommy G
17: cDoc
17: Lee.
17: Chexr
17: ExcelZero
17: AarowSmashGuy
17: PRiDE (Yoshi)
17: SamusABE
25: Diem
25: Dguy
25: hungrybox
25: Yayhuzz
25: Lambchops
25: GDX`
25: Galeon
25: DSL
33: Biglou
33: Captain crunch
33: Will_
33: DJ Nintendo
33: chaz
33: ESAM
33: Gmoney
33: Loki
33: Linguini
33: FenrirVII
33: Bozzar
33: Nick Riddle
33: Chaddly
33: AngryLobster
33: Petey
33: Snad
49: Adam
49: Loto
49: CO18
49: Thor
49: Nice1
49: Hunter
49: Zig-Zag!
49: Thee Incubus
49: Garbanzo

Is seventeenth good enough for you?

Discuss.

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yes, if we are going to use Melee best low-tier players, we might as well use Brawl's best low-tier users as well.

EDIT: this was a responce to Fabrian's comment.

 

[Mmac]

Show me a Yoshi beating a competent Meta, then we'll talk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d9uw30AEl8&feature=user

 

[IrArby]

Yoshis Fsmash and its properties mean nothing if he can't set up for it. As far as we know theres now way to dashcancel into a fsmash. Yoshi, like many lower tiered characters cannot safely approach. I stand by what I've been saying for probably 100+ pages now that the best characters in this game can approach and get in their 1, 2, or 3 hits and escape without being punished in return. Think of Snake's Ftilt (2hits) or his jab combo. Think of MK's Mach Tornado or his High Priority Aerials. Think D3's ranged attacks and chaingrabs.

Yoshi doesn't have aerial approach since he can't space the landing. Characters like Marth and MK can since they've got swords (disjointed hitboxes) that give them extra range without the extra risk. SHFFing aerials is pretty much the best way the get gayed by someone sitting in their shield unless you can space them well (Wario being a semi-exception).
Yoshi also lacks a safe ground approach. We already know he sucks out of shield so in summary:

Yoshi's lack of a good ground or aerial approach plus terrible ability to counter others approachs (his ****ty out of shield options) makes him a bad character.

 

[remyx]

dude the bottom tier was total ****ake in melee...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkjWGcET3D4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwCT-w7K4do

 

[Fabrian]

good match O.o... (For MMac)

For remyx I was expecting pichu or mewtwo...

since we are comparing junk melee to junk brawl

 

[The Halloween Captain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d9uw30AEl8&feature=user

Very close, but very interesting.

Yoshis Fsmash and its properties mean nothing if he can't set up for it. As far as we know theres now way to dashcancel into a fsmash. Yoshi, like many lower tiered characters cannot safely approach. I stand by what I've been saying for probably 100+ pages now that the best characters in this game can approach and get in their 1, 2, or 3 hits and escape without being punished in return. Think of Snake's Ftilt (2hits) or his jab combo. Think of MK's Mach Tornado or his High Priority Aerials. Think D3's ranged attacks and chaingrabs.

Yoshi doesn't have aerial approach since he can't space the landing. Characters like Marth and MK can since they've got swords (disjointed hitboxes) that give them extra range without the extra risk. SHFFing aerials is pretty much the best way the get gayed by someone sitting in their shield unless you can space them well (Wario being a semi-exception).
Yoshi also lacks a safe ground approach. We already know he sucks out of shield so in summary:

Yoshi's lack of a good ground or aerial approach plus terrible ability to counter others approachs (his ****ty out of shield options) makes him a bad character.

While I can't agree or disagree with this statement, how do these deficits impact Yoshi's viability in the practical sence? Truth is in a roster of 39 (37 if PT is one fighter), I was mildly surprised that the so-called bad character scored 17th. Of corse, I will not pretend that I know the conditions of the one tournament Smooth posted.

 

[illboyzeus]

that yoshi Didn't even get top 10, in melee, you had ****ing pikas, luigi's, links, DK's...regularly placing high. And this is in larger tournies.

 

[Fabrian]

that yoshi Didn't even get top 10, in melee, you had ****ing pikas, luigi's, links, DK's...regularly placing high. And this is in larger tournies.

Which yoshi is "that yoshi"... that post is confusing in itself.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

that yoshi Didn't even get top 10, in melee, you had ****ing pikas, luigi's, links, DK's...regularly placing high. And this is in larger tournies.

All those melee characters were less places away from the top than Brawl Yoshi is considered to be. In other words, Brawl Yoshi is currently believed to be about #32 or so, while Melee Pikachu (the lowest ranking character on your list) was about #17.

 

[Mmac]

good match O.o... (For MMac)

That wasn't me. In fact... I don't know who that was. I just found it in the video archive

Yoshis Fsmash and its properties mean nothing if he can't set up for it. As far as we know theres now way to dashcancel into a fsmash. Yoshi, like many lower tiered characters cannot safely approach. I stand by what I've been saying for probably 100+ pages now that the best characters in this game can approach and get in their 1, 2, or 3 hits and escape without being punished in return. Think of Snake's Ftilt (2hits) or his jab combo. Think of MK's Mach Tornado or his High Priority Aerials. Think D3's ranged attacks and chaingrabs.

I think Yoshi can Dashcancel with Dragonic Reversing (AKA WaveYoshing), but I don't do it much, I do it with Dsmash due to it not canceling the slide. Even without AT's, Yoshi's Bair is a fine approach. Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt also work ok too.

Yoshi doesn't have aerial approach since he can't space the landing. Characters like Marth and MK can since they've got swords (disjointed hitboxes) that give them extra range without the extra risk. SHFFing aerials is pretty much the best way the get gayed by someone sitting in their shield unless you can space them well (Wario being a semi-exception).
Yoshi also lacks a safe ground approach. We already know he sucks out of shield so in summary:

Can't space the landing? Not sure what you really mean by that. He can set up immediately afterwards with a Ftilt on landing, and then follow that up with a Uair for a 3-6 hit combo. And again, I already explained the approaches already.

Yoshi's lack of a good ground or aerial approach plus terrible ability to counter others approachs (his ****ty out of shield options) makes him a bad character.

Terrible ability to counter Approaches? Have you seen what Yoshi's QDS Pivot Grabbing can do?

 

[illboyzeus]

The results smooth criminal posted had a yoshi who placed 17th, I was referring to that.

And btw, yoshi supporters are really reaching today. Tell me, what exactly can yoshi do against meta/snake?

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'm tired of the whole "Nothing but MK and Snake win" statement.


Falco, Wario, G&W, Pit, ROB, and DeDeDe are all very ****ing viable, and many other characters can be used with great success, like Olimar and Marth, you just need counterpicks, lol.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The results smooth criminal posted had a yoshi who placed 17th, I was referring to that.

And btw, yoshi supporters are really reaching today. Tell me, what exactly can yoshi do against meta/snake?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d9uw30AEl8&feature=user

And I am not a Yoshi supporter, by the way. I simply disagree with some of the ways you approached the debate.

But yes, Yoshi is today's character apparently.

 

[illboyzeus]

I'm tired of the whole "Nothing but MK and Snake win" statement.


Falco, Wario, G&W, Pit, ROB, and DeDeDe are all very ****ing viable, and many other characters can be used with great success, like Olimar and Marth, you just need counterpicks, lol.

Who WINS, the most tournies? snake/MK or all those other characters COMBINED? kthxbai

 

[Fabrian]

Who WINS, the most tournies? snake/MK or all those other characters COMBINED? kthxbai

diddy has actually won it here in my region most of the time...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Who WINS, the most tournies? snake/MK or all those other characters COMBINED? kthxbai

I never quite understood this trend myself, however, as GW is not one of these top two, in spite of being a character on equal footing.

In otherwords, although tournament popularity is our only support of character viability, it is not a very good one unfortunately. If you want proof, check out the somewhat well known Japanese tournament results.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

that yoshi Didn't even get top 10, in melee, you had ****ing pikas, luigi's, links, DK's...regularly placing high. And this is in larger tournies.

This is true.

Take what you want from those results I posted, but my opinion is simply this: Until somebody comes crawling out of the woodwork and makes a Yoshi place in the top three at a tournament like FAST, then he's not all the hot **** that his players are making him out to be. Many of the high-end players complimented PRiDE's Brawl Yoshi too, saying that he put up one helluva fight and surprised even them with what Yoshi could do.

However, look at where he placed.

And about the video Mmac posted:

Age isn't necessarily a factor, but that video WAS a few months old. Despite Brawl's nearly non-existent progression, there has been some changes to the respective metagames of both characters. Yoshi's changes have been broader, admittedly, and have fundamentally altered the way he's been played then to how he is played now (ie the Draconic Slide Thing or whatever it is). However, MK's metagame has seen refinement to the point of perfection and it seems that every advantage he has is pressed to the fore.

Also that video exemplified MK's strengths versus Yoshi. If the MK would've maintained that same tempo that he had on that first stock throughout the whole match, he would've probably ended up making a combo video (no pun intended) out of that Yoshi. Yoshi's inherent strengths against MK could also be seen, too (the standing CG and pivot grabs). However, again, I stress everything else that has been pointed out by everybody else and that Yoshi's strengths against MK pale in comparison versus the strengths MK has against Yoshi.

Yoshi has a Wavedash-thing, an (admittedly) awesome pivot grab, an okay projectile, good tilts, and a standing CG. Yoshi has a poor shield game, poor recovery, can be hard to kill with, and moderate priority; MK has great priority, has a great shield game (Shuttle Loop out of Powershield? Yes), excellent recovery, nearly lagless aerials that are good for juggling, has a Shuttle Loop (it deserves its own mention), and decent range. About the only thing he has going against him is his lightness.

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Halloween Captain]

This is true.

Take what you want from those results I posted, but my opinion is simply this: Until somebody comes crawling out of the woodwork and makes a Yoshi place in the top three at a tournament like FAST, then he's not all the hot **** that his players are making him out to be. Many of the high-end players complimented PRiDE's Brawl Yoshi too, saying that he put up one helluva fight and surprised even them with what Yoshi could do.

However, look at where he placed.

And about the video Mmac posted:

Age isn't necessarily a factor, but that video WAS a few months old. Despite Brawl's nearly non-existent progression, there has been some changes to the respective metagames of both characters. Yoshi's changes have been broader, admittedly, and have fundamentally altered the way he's been played then to how he is played now (ie the Draconic Slide Thing or whatever it is). However, MK's metagame has seen refinement to the point of perfection and it seems that every advantage he has is pressed to the fore.

Also that video exemplified MK's strengths versus Yoshi. If the MK would've maintained that same tempo that he had on that first stock throughout the whole match, he would've probably ended up making a combo video (no pun intended) out of that Yoshi. Yoshi's inherent strengths against MK could also be seen, too (the standing CG and pivot grabs). However, again, I stress everything else that has been pointed out by everybody else and that Yoshi's strengths against MK pale in comparison versus the strengths MK has against Yoshi.

Smooth Criminal

While I agree completely, I need to know for verification - Did those melee Pikachus, Luigis, and DKs all place well in melee's early metagame (the first nine months, say) or did the really good low-tier character players only start appearing after a year or two?

 

[Fabrian]

This is true.

Take what you want from those results I posted, but my opinion is simply this: Until somebody comes crawling out of the woodwork and makes a Yoshi place in the top three at a tournament like FAST, then he's not all the hot **** that his players are making him out to be. Many of the high-end players complimented PRiDE's Brawl Yoshi too, saying that he put up one helluva fight and surprised even them with what Yoshi could do.

However, look at where he placed.

And about the video Mmac posted:

Age isn't necessarily a factor, but that video WAS a few months old. Despite Brawl's nearly non-existent progression, there has been some changes to the respective metagames of both characters. Yoshi's changes have been broader, admittedly, and have fundamentally altered the way he's been played then to how he is played now (ie the Draconic Slide Thing or whatever it is). However, MK's metagame has seen refinement to the point of perfection and it seems that every advantage he has is pressed to the fore.

Also that video exemplified MK's strengths versus Yoshi. If the MK would've maintained that same tempo that he had on that first stock throughout the whole match, he would've probably ended up making a combo video (no pun intended) out of that Yoshi. Yoshi's inherent strengths against MK could also be seen, too (the standing CG and pivot grabs). However, again, I stress everything else that has been pointed out by everybody else and that Yoshi's strengths against MK pale in comparison versus the strengths MK has against Yoshi.

Smooth Criminal

we're trying to get to a point that the worst in brawl is in a whole different league than the one in melee

 

[illboyzeus]

Another dumb argument...look brawl has about 15X as many people attempting to break it and push the meta to the limit. Therefore leading to many new things being discovered faster. Brawl's ceiling is also lower, with no discernable universal AT to help the low tiers rise, it will be hard for them to ever compete with the metas and snakes of the world. Oh and yeah Link was considered high tier early on, and now he's low tier so some of them obviously won some tournies

Also the worst in brawl has no chance against the best in brawl
the same is simply not true in melee

 

[Falconv1.0]

Who WINS, the most tournies? snake/MK or all those other characters COMBINED? kthxbai

Snake-19
MK-23

All of those guys-45

Ehe :/

 

[Mmac]

And btw, yoshi supporters are really reaching today. Tell me, what exactly can yoshi do against meta/snake?

It's because the hate never stops. I can't allow the hate to be ignored.

If you really want me to tell you what He can do, than fine.

Against MetaKnight, Yoshi is one of the few characters that actually stand a good chance against him. An Offencive Yoshi is nothing to MetaKnight, he'll get destroyed. However, a Defencive Yoshi is a nightmare for him. Pivot Grabs actually Stops every Ground approach he has (SH Air's, Tornado, Dash, Drill Rush), and Usmash/Uair takes care of the rest (Long Hop Dair). This is a huge problem for MK, because Yoshi can not only CG MK, but also Release him into a unavoidable Sliding Usmash. Basically, you're looking at 35% everytime MK Grab's him, and death at 115-120%. Because MetaKnight lacks a projectile, Yoshi can just force him into the offencive with well spaced egg's. Yoshi can also match MK in the air quite well also with his Bair and Uair, and Dair actually cancels out MK's Tornado!. Not saying it's all Yoshi, MK is still one hard bugger.

Snake, Yoshi can't deal with him as good compared to MK. He's got Projectile and traps, so Yoshi has to play a bit more aggressively. Not to mention that Yoshi doesn't have the CG/Release Usmash, so he can't Rack up damage as easily. He still has some tricks though. Egg's work well as a good Anti-Grenade Pressure, and Yoshi can still Pivot Snake out of his Motar Dash. Snake usually plays defensively, and thats where the problem is, due to his redicious Tilts. You gotta play some fancy Mindgames to get in safely, or do a DR Dsmash . Other notes is that DownB plows though his Motar Shell safely, and same with his Side B against Snakes SideB Missile.

And I agree what Smooth said. Although some things I noticed is that I don't think that person knew that he could Usmash MK on Release, although I think it was rather unknown at the time (People still don't know that Yoshi, along with other characters, could do that). Also I wouldn't call Yoshi's Recovery "Poor"

 

[The Halloween Captain]

we're trying to get to a point that the worst in brawl is in a whole different league than the one in melee

We all know that Brawl Captain Falcon doesn't have much against Brawl Snake. We also know that Brawl has a 39 (or 37, depending on how PT's counted) cast to melee's 26, which gives it an excuse.

A better question is how does the comparison between Brawl's best character and those Brawl characters hovering and #26 (currently Luigi, tournament wise) compare to melee's best and worst characters.

So how do they compare?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

While I agree completely, I need to know for verification - Did those melee Pikachus, Luigis, and DKs all place well in melee's early metagame (the first nine months, say) or did the really good low-tier character players only start appearing after a year or two?

Actually, Zelda (without Sheik, believe it or not) and Luigi placed very very well when Melee's metagame was getting off of the ground. In fact, many of the unconventional characters that Melee players placed lower in rank placed extremely well during that first "real" year of competitive Melee (DK, Pikachu, ICs, Luigi, Mario, etc). When the dust cleared, however, things were much closer to how they are now in terms of character worth and tier placement.

In Brawl, however, it's pretty much the same few characters placing at the top every time and it's been that way for the past six months.

Edit: Well, Mac, it's not like Yoshi has five jumps and an Up-B that gimps/kills at low percentages. Also, he can't glide. Yoshi's Up B spits out a projectile and gives him a little bit of a boost. Plus the second jump can be gimped.

>____> C'mon now.

Smooth Criminal

 

[illboyzeus]

If yoshi does so gosh darned good against metaknight, shouldn't he be winning a few large tournies?