Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[stingers]

I doubt that's possible :x It'd be cool though

 

[FrozenHobo]

i seriously doubt they can do that, Del. though it would be very weird....

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really see a staple in the Kirby games being weird Obviously you wouldn't wanna be inhaling constantly as that in itself is pretty punishable.

 

[FrozenHobo]

well, i just mean inhaling mario's fireballs seems cool, but slightly... odd. if it could be done it would be interesting, but i don't even know how it would be done programing wise.

 

[Deleted member]

Hopefully a WBR member will step in to see if it's possible or not. It would be a great way to balance Kirby (who needs it desperately.. I'm having a hard time playing this game knowing Kirby is so good.)

 

[jahkzheng]

Two things,

I know it isn't that critical, but have you thought of removing Samus' pummeling glitch on Bowser?

Also, could you make Falco's up-B at least as good as it was. I don't necessarily want this mod to change his other attributes, but if it could be done it would be appreciated.

Actually I do have one more thought,
I don't use diddy much, but without his ledge sweetspotting I find myself crashing into the stage right next to the edge upon recovery. I alleviated this by aiming straight for the stage surface rather than the ledge. This got me back on stage, but of course I was vulnerable. Just curious if this was something you wanted for Diddy's recovery and with enough practice can be worked around, or if its something you'll be fixing.

 

[SimaMatt]

I know it isn't that critical, but have you thought of removing Samus' pummeling glitch on Bowser?

You mean when Samus misses her grab pummel on Bowser? It happens on other characters too. I haven't bothered to test, but I know for sure Mario is another who avoids Samus's grab pummel from time to time. I'd imagine the best way to fix it is to make the hitbox bigger.

 

[CloneHat]

@jahkzheng:

Use Diddy's side B, and aim your recovery so you come up BESIDE the ledge. The ridiculous grab range will save you.

 

[jahkzheng]

You mean when Samus misses her grab pummel on Bowser? It happens on other characters too. I haven't bothered to test, but I know for sure Mario is another who avoids Samus's grab pummel from time to time. I'd imagine the best way to fix it is to make the hitbox bigger.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

I'd say its definitely worth testing, and I hope making a larger hitbox is enough to fix it.
The strange thing about it is that Samus appears to be hitting her opponent already...
makes me wonder if her pummel is disjointed somehow?


Edit:
Thanks for the advice CloneHat.
Any thoughts on what I said about Falco?

 

[Revven]

Samus's pummel on Bowser has nothing to do with size, its the damage it deals (which is really low) so some times, for some reason, on Bowser it won't do any damage. I really don't think it's worth fixing since it's such a small problem and only happens on ONE character...

 

[cAm8ooo]

Hopefully a WBR member will step in to see if it's possible or not. It would be a great way to balance Kirby (who needs it desperately.. I'm having a hard time playing this game knowing Kirby is so good.)

I dont see this being possible in any way so dont get your hopes up.

Also, Kirby is not broken. He's not even the best character, he's probably top 5 but top 5 does not mean broken. Also, just pick up Marth, he absolutely ***** kirbz. Game and Watch also does very well, as well as ZSS just to name a few.

 

[jalued]

just wondering if tech roles are going to be slowed down a tad, as techchasing is slightly too hard atm for alot of characters (reaction time needs to be at frame speed )

 

[Plum]

just wondering if tech roles are going to be slowed down a tad, as techchasing is slightly too hard atm for alot of characters (reaction time needs to be at frame speed )

I think only a few characters warrant a slow down on their techs.
Some characters are perfectly fine, and others are still retardedly easy to chase even with the techs so fast (only one off the top of my head is G&W who takes his **** time getting up )

 

[leafgreen386]

I think only a few characters warrant a slow down on their techs.
Some characters are perfectly fine, and others are still retardedly easy to chase even with the techs so fast (only one off the top of my head is G&W who takes his **** time getting up )

We've talked about homogenizing the techroll speeds before, but never followed through with anything. It is one of those things that tend to get forgotten about, though.

 

[jahkzheng]

Samus's pummel on Bowser has nothing to do with size, its the damage it deals (which is really low) so some times, for some reason, on Bowser it won't do any damage. I really don't think it's worth fixing since it's such a small problem and only happens on ONE character...

Hmm, that's strange.
Not sure if this means anything, but I've noticed pummeling problems when Bowser is at higher damage.

Although it isn't real important, I'd hope that when most other things are taken care of, that this problem would be addressed just for the sake of cleaning up the little things to further polish the game. (Guess I'm just anal, lol)


Also Falco400 - since you seem to be knowledgeable about B+ - I was wondering about your thoughts on Falco's (up-B) recovery.
Do you want to make it at least as good as it was in vBrawl or are you happy with it as is?

 

[Wavedash Master]

Hmm, that's strange.
Not sure if this means anything, but I've noticed pummeling problems when Bowser is at higher damage.

Although it isn't real important, I'd hope that when most other things are taken care of, that this problem would be addressed just for the sake of cleaning up the little things to further polish the game. (Guess I'm just anal, lol)


Also Falco400 - since you seem to be knowledgeable about B+ - I was wondering about your thoughts on Falco's (up-B) recovery.
Do you want to make it at least as good as it was in vBrawl or are you happy with it as is?

Even though you were asking Falco400, I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on it.

Falco's Up-B wasn't directly nerfed, the only changes that have made it bad for recovery were the higher gravity and the removal of auto sweetspotting. Personally, I don't think his Up-B or any other recovery option should be buffed. That is Falco's weakness, and he has a good onstage game to make up for it. Falco has lasers to keep the opponent at bay, his shine (Down-B) is a great combo starter, and his down air can lead to some gimps. These examples should show that he has various plusses that compliment for his horrid recovery.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Even though you were asking Falco400, I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on it.

Falco's Up-B wasn't directly nerfed, the only changes that have made it bad for recovery were the higher gravity and the removal of auto sweetspotting. Personally, I don't think his Up-B or any other recovery option should be buffed. That is Falco's weakness, and he has a good onstage game to make up for it. Falco has lasers to keep the opponent at bay, his shine (Down-B) is a great combo starter, and his down air can lead to some gimps. These examples should show that he has various plusses that compliment for his horrid recovery.

Hey, someone else who lives in Alaska.

I agree though, Falco doesn't need a better recovery.

 

[Dan_X]

I personally think that Falco should be able to recover by teleporting to the center of the stage. This would be really difficult because you'd have to press two buttons at once: L and R. Upon doing so.. Poof! Seems like a needed buff if you ask me. It's simply not fair to let a character who has one of the best projectiles and on-stage games have a poor recovery...

 

[Nybb]

Regarding Kirby, I don't think extensive changes to his moves are warranted. Doing something like decreasing his b-air hitbox size would be way too much. That move is really all he has against characters with decent range. All of his moves function just fine right now IMO; the only nerf that might be needed is some slight damage reduction. But I'm still not sure about that -- as others have said, he still has some bad matchups. Mostly people who can outrange his b-air and/or recover around his d-air can do OK against him.

Now that the throw codes are almost done, I think it would be a good time to discuss using this code to help Bowser out a bit. He had a pretty decent grab game in vBrawl due to grab releases, which obviously all got taken out. I think he deserves some buffs in this area to restore that aspect of his game.

 

[CloneHat]

Bowser uthrow begs to combo, and bthrow begs to kill.

 

[PosthumusES]

Bowser uthrow begs to combo, and bthrow begs to kill.

QFT

But also increase KB on Marth's Forward Grab. The ability to Forward Grab to x2 Fair or even more is rediculous.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I think DK in Brawl+ needs some work. I know it's been discussed a lot and ultimately it's been settled on leaving it how it is, but to me, it seems like Donkey Kong has recieved more nerfs than buffs... and he was far from broken in vBrawl. His main weakness in vBrawl (not counting infinites since they don't apply to Brawl+) was a poor vertical recovery. In Brawl+, both his vertical and horizontal recovery took hits. This is worsened by the 'no auto-sweetspotting' code, as DK is even more susceptible to being spiked or gimped (not to mention how much more punishable DK's up-b is now). It also makes his air-game a lot riskier.

I feel like DK is sort of mediocore now... he has a good ground game, but I don't know how well he can stand up to B+ powerhouses like Luigi, Marth, Sheik, ect. He's still far from useless, but I think he needs some buffs to get him to the level of other characters.

My suggestion would either be to improve his recovery and leave his ground game as is, or improve his ground game and leave his recovery as is. I'd prefer the first one, since Donkey Kong is supposed to be the speed/mobility heavy-hitter.

And, of course, when grabs can finally be modified, his cargo-grab needs to be less escapable, hahah.

 

[Shell]

DK's gravity is completely unchanged, he just has a lower SH and a faster FF.

I'm not really sure what you mean by his recovery took hits, both vertically and horizontally. Yes, it requires a bit of skill to sweetspot, but it covers exactly the same distance.

Also, his ground game is quite good. He's got some of the best range in the game, powerful smashes, and quick tilts to keep himself safe.

DK is far from mediocre, he's great. I'm sure Falco400 will step in here shortly to discuss his ****-factor, but I'll just say for now that when we started balancing characters, I considered DK to be one of the most perfectly balanced characters. He's got big strengths and big weaknesses, and the end result is an interesting, balanced character. If anyone is dramatically better than him, they probably need to be toned down a little.

 

[Plum]

Speaking of Boozer, could his Fsmash have less failboxes?

Everything doesn't need to be the inferno hit, but it has so many useless hitboxes that half the time I see myself hit by it (as G&W mind you, second lightest character in the game not counting the tie between Jiggly and Squirtle) I go literally nowhere even at high percents.

Considering the effort that goes into landing his Fsmash (especially on a character like G&W who can wall so effectively with Nair) it is very sad that the move fails at its purpose with one exception on its multiple hitboxes.

Sweetspot = inferno ****, other hitboxes = actually packing some power to them

 

[Yingyay]

DK always had a rough time against Sheik, Marth and Luigi, its just one of his bad matchups that wont change because of how he is.

 

[Revven]

I think DK in Brawl+ needs some work. I know it's been discussed a lot and ultimately it's been settled on leaving it how it is, but to me, it seems like Donkey Kong has recieved more nerfs than buffs... and he was far from broken in vBrawl. His main weakness in vBrawl (not counting infinites since they don't apply to Brawl+) was a poor vertical recovery. In Brawl+, both his vertical and horizontal recovery took hits. This is worsened by the 'no auto-sweetspotting' code, as DK is even more susceptible to being spiked or gimped (not to mention how much more punishable DK's up-b is now). It also makes his air-game a lot riskier.

I feel like DK is sort of mediocore now... he has a good ground game, but I don't know how well he can stand up to B+ powerhouses like Luigi, Marth, Sheik, ect. He's still far from useless, but I think he needs some buffs to get him to the level of other characters.

My suggestion would either be to improve his recovery and leave his ground game as is, or improve his ground game and leave his recovery as is. I'd prefer the first one, since Donkey Kong is supposed to be the speed/mobility heavy-hitter.

And, of course, when grabs can finally be modified, his cargo-grab needs to be less escapable, hahah.

This post made me facepalm, and makes me want to slap you.

If you haven't read my DK+ guide in the character forum, you need to, I cover WHY things were done and HOW he benefits from the changes made. Go look at it, you obviously aren't playing him as you should be. DK is the most **** heavyweight, he has guaranteed Cargo Utoss Donkey Punch and Uair on the ENTIRE cast AND they both work even at high %s, it's inescapable. DK has **** combos and is a great character ONSTAGE. His recovery doesn't need buffing because it's his character weakness to have a mediocre recovery. Just space the recovery wisely and you'll snap on JUST fine. He has amazing range, amazing KO power, and the combos to back his mediocre recovery up.

I'm sorry if you feel he's mediocre because he truly isn't. He ***** Marth as far as I'm concerned, and he kinda did in Brawl as well. His recovery was about the same in Brawl anyway, it's easy to meteor him in all three Smash games. You can't change that and we won't be changing DK ever unless he is truly proven to suck (which is SO UNLIKELY BECAUSE OF HIS RANGE, COMBOS, AND KO POWER).

Please read my DK+ guide, for the love of God, I thought people understood by now that DK is **** and you really can't say he sucks. Right now, he is by far the most balanced character in this game.

 

[Plum]

Going to have to agree with DK being great the way he is.
He is a great example of the balance B+ is shooting for.

Obvious strengths; massive range, power, speed, powerful combos, and great horizontal recovery (distance wise). He is one of those characters who gets in, and stays in (and ***** with Bum combos all day). And considering how much range he has, getting in isn't the biggest issue (unless its a wall of spam, but getting through walls of spam isn't just a DK problem).

At the same time he has obvious weaknesses; size and fall speed, extended hurtboxes, poor vertical recovery, an easy to intercept recovery and no projectile.

Overall though his strengths outweigh his weaknesses to create a great character with clear counters but still having matchups where his strengths abuse the weaknesses of others. He is a character that you definitely should consider having a secondary for, which is perfect considering every character should hopefully be that way by the time balancing is done.

 

[GHNeko]

But also increase KB on Marth's Forward Grab. The ability to Forward Grab to x2 Fair or even more is rediculous.

lolno its not. And at higher percents, you can only get off one fair.The damage output of fthrow to double fair isnt that great either. It'd be better to uthrow to uair with marth at the percents you can fthrow to fair.

And fair > uair > utilt is better than double fair.

 

[WheelOfFish]

This post made me facepalm, and makes me want to slap you.

If you haven't read my DK+ guide in the character forum, you need to, I cover WHY things were done and HOW he benefits from the changes made. Go look at it, you obviously aren't playing him as you should be. DK is the most **** heavyweight, he has guaranteed Cargo Utoss Donkey Punch and Uair on the ENTIRE cast AND they both work even at high %s, it's inescapable. DK has **** combos and is a great character ONSTAGE. His recovery doesn't need buffing because it's his character weakness to have a mediocre recovery. Just space the recovery wisely and you'll snap on JUST fine. He has amazing range, amazing KO power, and the combos to back his mediocre recovery up.

I'm sorry if you feel he's mediocre because he truly isn't. He ***** Marth as far as I'm concerned, and he kinda did in Brawl as well. His recovery was about the same in Brawl anyway, it's easy to meteor him in all three Smash games. You can't change that and we won't be changing DK ever unless he is truly proven to suck (which is SO UNLIKELY BECAUSE OF HIS RANGE, COMBOS, AND KO POWER).

Please read my DK+ guide, for the love of God, I thought people understood by now that DK is **** and you really can't say he sucks. Right now, he is by far the most balanced character in this game.

Calm down.

Seriously, I'm okay with my suggestion being turned down since it was explained to me. I understand now. But let me clear something up. I never said Donkey Kong sucks. Ever. I used the word mediocre to describe how he felt to me due to his recovery. Your guide said his up-b was hit with a slight nerf to balance him out. I didn't know that DK was about how balanced you want the other characters. How was I supposed to know that a lot of the characters Donkey Kong is currently struggling with are going to be toned down? I just went with what is currently in Brawl+. If you tone down some characters, then yes, DK would be at a good level. But as I saw it, his up-b was not cutting it with some of these currently over-powered characters. I should've been more specific; I didn't want his vertical recovery to be improved, but I was hoping to get his horizontal recovery back to what it was. I know he probably doesn't need it now.

What I was referring to with the cargo is the easy way to get out of it. The cargo spike would be a little more useful if it took more than half a second to get out of it.

I guess transistioning into Brawl+ DK has been harder than with others for me, but I'll get used to him eventually.

 

[FrozenHobo]

the IC anti-infinite code currently restricts popo -> nana throws, right? if the purpose of the code is to eliminate infinites, but keep regular CGs, then only bthrow needs to be effected by this as every other throw (f and d throws) take the opponent to edge and require us to end the chain. bthrow is currently the only one that actually can be used to keep a chain going as it lets you turn around when you get to the edge.

 

[Revven]

Calm down.

Seriously, I'm okay with my suggestion being turned down since it was explained to me. I understand now. But let me clear something up. I never said Donkey Kong sucks. Ever. I used the word mediocre to describe how he felt to me due to his recovery. Your guide said his up-b was hit with a slight nerf to balance him out. I didn't know that DK was about how balanced you want the other characters. How was I supposed to know that a lot of the characters Donkey Kong is currently struggling with are going to be toned down? I just went with what is currently in Brawl+. If you tone down some characters, then yes, DK would be at a good level. But as I saw it, his up-b was not cutting it with some of these currently over-powered characters. I should've been more specific; I didn't want his vertical recovery to be improved, but I was hoping to get his horizontal recovery back to what it was. I know he probably doesn't need it now.

What I was referring to with the cargo is the easy way to get out of it. The cargo spike would be a little more useful if it took more than half a second to get out of it.

I guess transistioning into Brawl+ DK has been harder than with others for me, but I'll get used to him eventually.

lol 1, I'm not mad, 2 I know about cargo being easy to get out of, it's % based as well as there's a secret way to get out of it instantly, I want that fixed more than anything however I do not know the priority on it right now. 3 Up B is fine.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You guys haven't forgotten about changing Mario's Uair back to the way it was have you?


And Falco, be nice to the poor guy with 10 posts, It's possible to explain things peacefully .

Not that 10 posts automatically makes you stupid or bad in any way.

 

[CloneHat]

Falco, if they know your "secret" can't you just stay on the ground and utilt/usmash/grab?

 

[weinzey]

the "secret" is pretty well known in the vbrawl scene and utterly simple. and iirc they break out to the front right? that would mean no usmash etc

 

[WheelOfFish]

The 'secret' (if you can call it that ) is what I was talking about.

What characters right now need the most work/testing? I know Yoshi is one.

Speaking of Yoshi... with his inability to jump out of his shield, I doubt it's possible, but would it be possible to make it so he can Egg Roll out of his shield?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

when can we expect this out?

 

[GHNeko]

Speaking of Yoshi... with his inability to jump out of his shield, I doubt it's possible, but would it be possible to make it so he can Egg Roll out of his shield?

As awesome as that would be, the egg roll start up is waaay to slow for Egg Roll OOS to be effective. :/

What makes Up B and Aerial OOS effective is their start up time and functionality as a gtfo move.

Egg Roll would need a start up ie have its hitbox out in less than 6 frames and have enough BKB to actually be considered a GTFO move.

The problem though, the egg roll would have to start up sooner than most Up B OOS because even with the shield buff, yoshi still drops his shield slower than the cast, by 1 frame. So egg roll would have to compensate for that. :V

I seriously doubt WBR would buff egg roll's start up dramatically like that.

 

[FrozenHobo]

the IC anti-infinite code currently restricts popo -> nana throws, right? if the purpose of the code is to eliminate infinites, but keep regular CGs, then only bthrow needs to be effected by this as every other throw (f and d throws) take the opponent to edge and require us to end the chain. bthrow is currently the only one that actually can be used to keep a chain going as it lets you turn around when you get to the edge.

*cough*

just putin' this out there.

 

[PanzerOceania]

so when is the next nightly build with the music code coming out?

tonight?

 

[GPDP]

so when is the next nightly build with the music code coming out?

tonight?

When Almas stops being lazy and finishes debugging the new engine codes.

*cough*