Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[CloneHat]

Can't you give Ness SA without taking away his Up B? It still sucks harder than nearly every other Up B in the game.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm afraid not.

I say we nerf something else. PKF slowdown? (back to it's Brawl self)
That over infinite PKTs.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Why exactly would the psi magnet benefit from SA? Are we thinking Oli-style downB usage? Enlighten me here.

Also, I haven't seen zap jump, but I don't approve of giving a character specific AT to another character. That totally goes against the notion of character diversity, which should still be a driving factore in all decisions on buffs/nerfs.

It would be much more interesting to focus on things unique to Ness, like the downB wind effect. For instance, creating an impressive wind effect might give Ness the option of pushing characters away in the air before using PKT2. Couple that with the SA idea we're toying with, and you got a nice GTFO move to aid Ness' recovery, which creates a mind game layer in stark contrast to the rinse-repeat nature of a multi PKT.

Let's try some interesting things here rather than go for the quick and dirty/obvious, I say.

 

[shanus]

Why exactly would the psi magnet benefit from SA? Are we thinking Oli-style downB usage? Enlighten me here.

Also, I haven't seen zap jump, but I don't approve of giving a character specific AT to another character. That totally goes against the notion of character diversity, which should still be a driving factore in all decisions on buffs/nerfs.

It would be much more interesting to focus on things unique to Ness, like the downB wind effect. For instance, creating an impressive wind effect might give Ness the option of pushing characters away in the air before using PKT2. Couple that with the SA idea we're toying with, and you got a nice GTFO move to aid Ness' recovery, which creates a mind game layer in stark contrast to the rinse-repeat nature of a multi PKT.

Let's try some interesting things here rather than go for the quick and dirty/obvious, I say.

Ness zap jump is largely horizontal as compared to Lucas' vertical.

In its current form, downB startup behaves akin to olimar whistle. However, at the end it has a baller wind hitbox so you can use it both as edeguarding technique as well as a recovery technique to eat damage and push away opponents. Yes, I did just say baller wind hitbox.

Lol, I was playing against falco and did fair fair windbox to push him away from recovering. And yes, it did work and I was very very happy.

 

[Slashy]

Buffs I want to see for Power Suit Samus.

-Faster dash speed (She shouldn't be much faster without armor)
-A much better tether recovery (can this be done with the hitbox mod)

 

[SketchHurricane]

Ness zap jump is largely horizontal as compared to Lucas' vertical.

Ok, that's actually pretty cool. Vids? I don't have the wii atm...

In its current form, downB startup behaves akin to olimar whistle. However, at the end it has a baller wind hitbox so you can use it both as edeguarding technique as well as a recovery technique to eat damage and push away opponents. Yes, I did just say baller wind hitbox.

Lol, I was playing against falco and did fair fair windbox to push him away from recovering. And yes, it did work and I was very very happy.

So you're telling me that paragraph I posted is exactly the case? Nice.

Just make sure you actually list it as the "baller wind hitbox" in the changelist

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness zap jump is largely horizontal as compared to Lucas' vertical.

In its current form, downB startup behaves akin to olimar whistle. However, at the end it has a baller wind hitbox so you can use it both as edeguarding technique as well as a recovery technique to eat damage and push away opponents. Yes, I did just say baller wind hitbox.

Lol, I was playing against falco and did fair fair windbox to push him away from recovering. And yes, it did work and I was very very happy.

Sounds cool. So you already implemented it?

Is infinite PKT still in? If so, can coerce you into nerfing something else?

 

[thesage]

The zap jump works with aerials too...

 

[Hentekorino]

Does anyone have a GCT of the nightly set with the new file patch code?
I tried to use the Brawl+ tweaker, didn't work for me, the constant freezing from 3.2 is pissing me off.

 

[shanus]

Sounds cool. So you already implemented it?

Is infinite PKT still in? If so, can coerce you into nerfing something else?

I just played Ness with Dangerlance for hours, and I have to say, the current changes we made made him too good. He definitely doesnt even need infinte PKT1s. Strong wind is insanely good at edgeguarding and pushing away shield grabs and everything. Its a ridiculous change which sounds subtle, but when you play with it, it is a HUGE gamechanger.

I'll get a nightly build up tonight with it on.

 

[timothyung]

I just played Ness with Dangerlance for hours, and I have to say, the current changes we made made him too good. He definitely doesnt even need infinte PKT1s. Strong wind is insanely good at edgeguarding and pushing away shield grabs and everything. Its a ridiculous change which sounds subtle, but when you play with it, it is a HUGE gamechanger.

I'll get a nightly build up tonight with it on.

Question now: Zap Jump or infinite PKT1?

 

[SketchHurricane]

I just played Ness with Dangerlance for hours, and I have to say, the current changes we made made him too good. He definitely doesnt even need infinte PKT1s. Strong wind is insanely good at edgeguarding and pushing away shield grabs and everything. Its a ridiculous change which sounds subtle, but when you play with it, it is a HUGE gamechanger.

I'll get a nightly build up tonight with it on.

Please do. I want to beast with a broken Ness.

 

[Swordplay]

Hopefully you'll include file replacement 3.5 in that build :D

 

[Jimbo_G]

I've been watching the boards about this Ness issue, and I'm a little confused. Why are you trying so hard to change a move to work completely differently than its original design? As far as my knowledge goes, the Psi Magnet was meant to protect against projectiles and surprise opponents with a sudden hitbox if they got too close at the wrong time. However, you guys seem hell-bent on changing it into some sort of extremely awkward offensive gimmick that's more akin to Wolf's Shine than some sort of projectile shield. What gives?

I thought the purpose of changing characters was to make them tourney viable and functional on a majority of levels. It was never agreed upon that it was our liberty to start coming up with new and different techs and functions the character would otherwise never be able to do. You've already made one very controversial change to a characters attack via Falco's Reflector. Although that happened to work for the better, I was under the impression that was a one-time exception to the rule of simply balancing characters' overall viability as a fighter.

The Brawl+ group that we have going over here is in partial agreement that you've already over-done it with Ness. I'm not saying we are right or you are wrong, but we've been following these updates very closely and Ness made an instant jump from middle-ground to monster in one update. We just want to make sure these tweaks don't start getting too weird or over-done, resulting in characters skewing completely from their original formula.

 

[timothyung]

Because some of us want more character-specific ATs. Brawl+ is community driven, so if many of us want a change, and it does not make a big effect on character balance, we will do it. It makes the game more fun. Also don't forget this is a nightly build; it's for testing purposes. If we find the change to be too big, we'll revert it or at least change it a bit.

 

[thesage]

I've been watching the boards about this Ness issue, and I'm a little confused. Why are you trying so hard to change a move to work completely differently than its original design? As far as my knowledge goes, the Psi Magnet was meant to protect against projectiles and surprise opponents with a sudden hitbox if they got too close at the wrong time. However, you guys seem hell-bent on changing it into some sort of extremely awkward offensive gimmick that's more akin to Wolf's Shine than some sort of projectile shield. What gives?

I thought the purpose of changing characters was to make them tourney viable and functional on a majority of levels. It was never agreed upon that it was our liberty to start coming up with new and different techs and functions the character would otherwise never be able to do. You've already made one very controversial change to a characters attack via Falco's Reflector. Although that happened to work for the better, I was under the impression that was a one-time exception to the rule of simply balancing characters' overall viability as a fighter.

The Brawl+ group that we have going over here is in partial agreement that you've already over-done it with Ness. I'm not saying we are right or you are wrong, but we've been following these updates very closely and Ness made an instant jump from middle-ground to monster in one update. We just want to make sure these tweaks don't start getting too weird or over-done, resulting in characters skewing completely from their original formula.

Actually, I felt that the Ness in the most recent nightly changed his playstyle a lot as well as being unbalanced (he was reduced to fair spam).

The new one, which I didn't build, just fixes what he has before. The yoyos work properly, fair isn't op'd, running attack links together, pk fire links together, fair links together (as in the weak hits lead into the strong hit), he can combo besides fair -> fair -> fair -> fair (which was op'd...), running attack links together. The biggest change is the psi magnet buff, which is experimental lol.

This isn't really an at though. It's more like a really unique move that's kinda a combination of shine, fludd, and Olimar's down-b.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Because some of us want more character-specific ATs. Brawl+ is community driven, so if many of us want a change, and it does not make a big effect on character balance, we will do it. It makes the game more fun. Also don't forget this is a nightly build; it's for testing purposes. If we find the change to be too big, we'll revert it or at least change it a bit.

you were given the option, it wasn't brought up by the ness mains. and i hardly see infinite PKT1s as an 'AT' when it means it takes less skill to play off stage...

listen to shanus, he knows what he's talking about.

 

[timothyung]

you were given the option, it wasn't brought up by the ness mains. and i hardly see infinite PKT1s as an 'AT' when it means it takes less skill to play off stage...

listen to shanus, he knows what he's talking about.

Actually I have no opinion on that. Just asking you guys if you prefer Zap Jump or infinite PKT1

 

[CloneHat]

PK magnet wasn't very useful before, but it will probably be used for gimps now more than projectile absorption.

 

[Demacrez]

It makes sense, since PSI Magnet was pretty much useless in most match ups.

 

[shanus]

I've been watching the boards about this Ness issue, and I'm a little confused. Why are you trying so hard to change a move to work completely differently than its original design? As far as my knowledge goes, the Psi Magnet was meant to protect against projectiles and surprise opponents with a sudden hitbox if they got too close at the wrong time. However, you guys seem hell-bent on changing it into some sort of extremely awkward offensive gimmick that's more akin to Wolf's Shine than some sort of projectile shield. What gives?

I thought the purpose of changing characters was to make them tourney viable and functional on a majority of levels. It was never agreed upon that it was our liberty to start coming up with new and different techs and functions the character would otherwise never be able to do. You've already made one very controversial change to a characters attack via Falco's Reflector. Although that happened to work for the better, I was under the impression that was a one-time exception to the rule of simply balancing characters' overall viability as a fighter.

The Brawl+ group that we have going over here is in partial agreement that you've already over-done it with Ness. I'm not saying we are right or you are wrong, but we've been following these updates very closely and Ness made an instant jump from middle-ground to monster in one update. We just want to make sure these tweaks don't start getting too weird or over-done, resulting in characters skewing completely from their original formula.

Trust me, we are fixing some of the ridiculous stuff (i.e. fair spam being ridonk.)

This makes ness very satisfying to play, and very dynamic. I think you'll enjoy it.

 

[Roxas215]

All this work being done to ness makes me so mad yall took out ivy's leaves. Like REALLY MAD!

But w/e

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgMIs0GJb5s
Those were the good days!

 

[JCaesar]

Why is everyone mourning the shallow projectile spam?

 

[Roxas215]

Why is everyone mourning the shallow projectile spam?

You talking about ivy? It's not projectile spam when a single press of the a button from every single char in the game can break them. Not to mention falco does it way better with his sh double laser which actually travels faster and farther and cant be broken up. Ivy needs them to space herself. I was all for taking out the stupid idea of multiple up b's. Ivy should always be easy to gimp. But she needs her leaves.

If u were talking about another char then sry!

 

[ConnorTheKid]

is it me or is it ironic that PSI Magnet pushes people away.

 

[Demacrez]

I don't see how you could mourn for that kind of projectile spam.

 

[Deleted member]

Re-posting from IC+ thread.
Stuff that might not be working right for Nana right now:
It feels like Nana's buffer is always at ten, it's a bit hard to tell because of the Popo to Nana lag.
Momentum, but, their "magnetism" makes it look like it's there.
Lagless edges, how did that even went unnoticed?

The Nana teleporting is still there, happens less frequently, though.
Also, is the IC infinite removal code going to be changed to Popo Nana regrabs? Or is it going to stay the same?
And lastly, maybe you could change something to allow resynching with Belay and Squall while Nana is grabbing the ledge? The stupid Nana AI tends to edgehog you whenever you're offstage. It's probably a coincidence, but it happens to me a lot more often in B+ than in vB.

Edit:

You talking about ivy? It's not projectile spam when a single press of the a button from every single char in the game can break them.

Ivy can outcamp IC with leaves since ice shots don't break leaves.

 

[SketchHurricane]

All this work being done to ness makes me so mad yall took out ivy's leaves. Like REALLY MAD!

But w/e

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgMIs0GJb5s
Those were the good days!

Jeez, what kind of broken crap was that? I must have missed that update back in the day lol.

 

[Roxas215]

Re-posting from IC+ thread.

Edit:

Ivy can outcamp IC with leaves since ice shots don't break leaves.

Wow one char.(Even though ic's jab does infact break the leaves) FALCO CAN OUTCAMP EVERYONE. And speaking on ic's who won't camp them? No one is fighting them up close to get grabbed.

Jeez, what kind of broken crap was that? I must have missed that update back in the day lol.

If u seen my post i admit ivy might of been broken in doubles. However i think that was just a case of them not knowing how to play ivy. I played doubles with that same set against my friends who were marth and kirby. Only thing marth had to do was fair the leaves. They broke every time. And kirby had no problem gimping me.

Ivy looks broken at 1st cause people dont expect her to be good. Once u find out that her leaves are nothing more then a spacing tool as u can easily use any jab to break them you will find out ivy is really just a one trick pony. Also people learned that dthrow to usmash is not legit as u can di the dthrow(something that marth player didn't do in the vid)


Ivy is only broken on warioware. In singles her leaves are not a problem at all. I dont see how yall can defend taking it out when falco does it better and faster has better matchups and is a all around better char. The leaves was just adding on to what she always was. A spacing char. But yall want to change ness whole playstyle. It makes no sense.

 

[JCaesar]

You talking about ivy? It's not projectile spam when a single press of the a button from every single char in the game can break them. Not to mention falco does it way better with his sh double laser which actually travels faster and farther and cant be broken up. Ivy needs them to space herself. I was all for taking out the stupid idea of multiple up b's. Ivy should always be easy to gimp. But she needs her leaves.

If u were talking about another char then sry!

Ivy and Ness (because everyone's *****ing about removing infinite PKT1s). And even though leaves have low priority, when they were fast, Ivy players spammed the hell out of it, because it was a very good projectile (yes, not as good as Falco, I understand and I personally feel he shouldn't have SHDLs). Olimar has even lower priority projectiles and he's the best camper in the game. It's not the priority that makes a projectile spammy or good, it's the power and the speed you can shoot them.

Ivy does not need spammy leaves. Her bair alone already makes her a great keep-away character.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Wow one char.(Even though ic's jab does infact break the leaves) FALCO CAN OUTCAMP EVERYONE. And speaking on ic's who won't camp them? No one is fighting them up close to get grabbed.

except that, you know, there are no CGs in B+... so grabbing doesn't = stock anymore... just sayin'...

 

[Roxas215]

except that, you know, there are no CGs in B+... so grabbing doesn't = stock anymore... just sayin'...

except that you know there are cg's just not the inf. just sayin. And even though there aren't any inf cant they still wobble?(or whatever the name is for that ice block lock they got)

Even with no inf no one is playing ic's up close

 

[Plum]

except that, you know, there are no CGs in B+... so grabbing doesn't = stock anymore... just sayin'...

Can still equal lots of damage piled on though. Yeah, nothing as scary as the alts but it's not like they aren't going to be using Nana to hit you with a blizzard or something, or comboing out of the throw itself.

The scariest thing though is definitely the guaranteed kills they get with their grab. Popo tossing you into a charged smash from Nana is brutal.
The difference now is that getting grabbed at low percents is more forgiving.
At high percents any smart player is still going to be avoiding their grab at all costs.

except that you know there are cg's just not the inf. just sayin. And even though there aren't any inf cant they still wobble?(or whatever the name is for that ice block lock they got)

Even with no inf no one is playing ic's up close

You can tech an aerial footstool now so you really can't hobble anymore. Technically you can still throw into a footstool and shoot an ice block to force a getup but it's only going to work if they don't tech the footstool.
Though I have had IC players still do it for the free regrab on me every once in a rare moon because I didn't see it coming and missed the tech. Ideally it shouldn't be worth anything more than a surprise way to get a free regrab now though.

 

[FrozenHobo]

except that you know there are cg's just not the inf. just sayin. And even though there aren't any inf cant they still wobble?(or whatever the name is for that ice block lock they got)

Even with no inf no one is playing ic's up close

the only CG they have left is dthrow (which doesn't work after about 50%) and no, they can't IBL anymore.

 

[Sails]

A brief interjection in all of this drama is in order:



Seriously though, I hear there's a nightly tonight?

 

[GHNeko]

A brief interjection in all of this drama is in order:



Seriously though, I hear there's a nightly tonight?

....oh my god I lol'd so hard.

you sir have won 1 winternet.

 

[shanus]

A brief interjection in all of this drama is in order:



Seriously though, I hear there's a nightly tonight?

lmao, I'll get it out in an hour.

 

[GPDP]

Saving that pic for posterity.

 

[PKNintendo]

LMAO.

I am actually pumped for this. Although I'll miss the old fair. Yeah, I admit it was a tad overpowered.
Good job for spilling the means Sage.





If this makes Ness worse though. They'll be hell to deal with. XD

you were given the option, it wasn't brought up by the ness mains. and i hardly see infinite PKT1s as an 'AT' when it means it takes less skill to play off stage...

listen to shanus, he knows what he's talking about.

Again with infinite PKT1 being cheap. It really wasn't cheap to begin with, and sage says it wasn't all that at juggling. ( I still think it owns) and you can still PKT1 on the ground.

 

[shanus]

new set posted, enjoy all!