Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Shell]

shanus already replied to the grab speed up, and Magus420 pointed out that the jab does have uses due to it's fast cooldown. I don't know if reposting this was necessary.

You say her jab is too slow for a jab -- by your logic, we should make the d-smash come out slower than frame 4 to act more like a d-smash should, right?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's grab itself is slow and is a poor OoS option because of it, but her grab/throw game is quite strong. Uthrow is a great combo throw which eventually leads into low percent Uair (or Fair) kills against a good chunk of the cast, but pretty far from 90% of it... anyway, uthrow setups make her slow (and slightly disjointed) grab worth it.

As far as Zelda's jab, I know it has issues... but speed isn't really one of them. It comes out slow but has almost no cooldown. The hitbox placement for the move is quite bad and it probably needs to be at least neutral on block and be able to link into its own hits properly, but those are simple enough tweaks. It's also fully disjointed from the start of the move although the sparkles appear otherwise.

 

[Revven]

So about making samus not suck...She needs her sex kick back. Bair and dsmash should be buffed too imo.

We actually already did change Nair to have higher BKB overall I think when it FIRST comes out (so that very first hitbox) just like in Melee. It may not be AS powerful, but, it definitely got a buff already.

 

[_Yes!_]

haha nice. She's still kinda low tier though imo. Is dsmash a kill move? because it should be.

 

[Revven]

haha nice. She's still kinda low tier though imo. Is dsmash a kill move? because it should be.

I think that Dsmash does what it's supposed to in its current form: GTFO basically. While it may not be that fast, it can be quite unexpected at times. What she needs is for her bombs to explode on contact and allow her to attack out of the Morph Ball animation (like she can in Melee). Then she would probably feel a lot better, maybe?

(As it is, she can already kill pretty **** early with her charge shot now and Fsmash which also got a buff awhile ago).

 

[Swordplay]

Sonic is pretty good o.O he just needs some reliable way to kill.

On the ground. He already kills well in the air.

Personally, I would increase the hitbox size of F-smash. I think it would just be an overall great fix because sonic an approach, crouch cancel, and punish with a f-smash **** tastic move.

D-smash isn't a kill move, its a GTFO move.

Know I know lots of sonics want the U-smash to spike so it can be a tech chase, I'd be willing to try both/one or the other.



Though, I'd really like to hear DS's opinion before anything.

 

[Wingflier]

haha nice. She's still kinda low tier though imo. Is dsmash a kill move? because it should be.

Dsmash is a kill move from around 100% if not DI-ed.

Also, I don't think Samus is really low tier, I just think that she's one of the hardest/most advanced characters to learn to play. Overall, she is in the slower/heavyweight class of the game, yet she requires the techniques that are typically used by lighter and more agile characters to be successful. Not only that, but her style has changed completely since vBrawl (thankfully), and many moves that were once rendered nearly useless (f-smash, side-b, jab), have been improved dramatically. This makes it hard for Samus mains in vBrawl to transition as they have become so accustomed to using attacks that are no longer necessary.

Having said all that, I don't think Samus is really low tier. I think she is one of the hardest characters to play, as effective use of her requires intensive short hop, z-air spam, control stick usage, DI, and smash-DI to really accent all her strengths.

And to be honest, most people can do very few of these, which is why they choose characters that don't require it that much.

Here is a video of a professional using Samus in B+: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWA-HLC5RI

I would surmise that he could beat most anybody I've ever seen or met in this game.

Wing

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Dsmash is a kill move from around 100% if not DI-ed...Overall, she is in the slower/heavyweight class of the game, yet she requires the techniques that are typically used by lighter and more agile characters...Not only that, but her style has changed completely since vBrawl (thankfully), and many moves that were once rendered nearly useless (f-smash, side-b, jab), have been improved..

Wing

1) why wouldn't someone be using DI
2)she's not a heavyweight lol
3) her style has not completely changed
4) lol at jab and side-b being useless in vbrawl..
man its so funny when people pretend to know what they are talking about. now I can understand why crazy stuff gets added in.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

skip2maloo= brawl+ hater?

and yes, samus IS a heavyweight. She dies at a lot higher percents than a lot of the cast. that means shes a heavyweight. being floaty =/= light character.

TL;DR: Samus is a floaty heavyweight.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

skip2maloo= brawl+ hater?

and yes, samus IS a heavyweight. She dies at a lot higher percents than a lot of the cast. that means shes a heavyweight. being floaty =/= light character.

TL;DR: Samus is a floaty heavyweight.

yea, obviously I hate brawl+ if I play it. but still the other stuff he said was just plain wrong. I remember samus being light in vbrawl so im guessing she got changed? I just make crude comments because if more stupid stuff gets added in ill just stick to the good game.

 

[proteininja]

Let me think of the deuchiest way to respond to a post.

A look! skip took care of it for me.

1) why wouldn't someone be using DI
2)she's not a heavyweight lol
3) her style has not completely changed
4) lol at jab and side-b being useless in vbrawl..
man its so funny when people pretend to know what they are talking about. now I can understand why crazy stuff gets added in.

 

[shanus]

yea, obviously I hate brawl+ if I play it. but still the other stuff he said was just plain wrong. I remember samus being light in vbrawl so im guessing she got changed? I just make crude comments because if more stupid stuff gets added in ill just stick to the good game.

she actually is around the 7th or 10th heaviest in vB by weight I think

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

oh well dayumz im extra wrong. well I don't own a wii so (johns). but still the other stuff that guy said was mad dookieee side b once being useless? like r u srs?? one thing I do remember was samus always using zair and missle dookie, then some jab to dair shiz. you can consider me a douche, troll or whatever. but im being honest. if I hadn't said that samus probably would've gotten zair buff that stuns you like zss or somethin lol

 

[proteininja]

oh well dayumz im extra wrong. well I don't own a wii so (johns). but still the other stuff that guy said was mad dookieee side b once being useless? like r u srs?? one thing I do remember was samus always using zair and missle dookie, then some jab to dair shiz. you can consider me a douche, troll or whatever. but im being honest. if I hadn't said that samus probably would've gotten zair buff that stuns you like zss or somethin lol

I think you underestimate how little the wbr listens to community input.

 

[dabridge]

Is there any way to make it so that pit can go into fall mode (from WoI mode) by pressing airdodge or something. This will make it so that pit can grab ledges so he wont get gimped, but wont make his recovery OP.

This.

Pit's WoI needs a fix real badly.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I think you underestimate how little the wbr listens to community input.

lol, I believe that to make brawl+ more fun, some things need to be worked on like the tether grab speeds and projectile stuff and ledge teching(I remember seeing that was being worked on), fix scar jumping and footstool stuff, make it so you can wall jump in the magnifying bubble parts of the stage. yea, that stuff. =) I don't make character suggestions cuz you know, even I think of some crazy stuff (unless of course I know they aren't crazy..like link/tl's bombs blowing up slightly sooner since the game is faster over all). ya..im out. shower then gonna go outside.

 

[Rion]

Whew, I need to stop sleeping in.

shanus already replied to the grab speed up, and Magus420 pointed out that the jab does have uses due to it's fast cooldown. I don't know if reposting this was necessary.

You say her jab is too slow for a jab -- by your logic, we should make the d-smash come out slower than frame 4 to act more like a d-smash should, right?

From what I can see... a good amount of characters have 5-6 Frame DSmashes, which is reasonably comparable. ROB has a 4 Frame Dsmash as well.

You have to understand as well that her Dsmash has rather low range compared to her other moves. The wind down after the first hit of her Dsmash is a bit long which basically is asking for punishment if it gets sidestepped/blocked. That's the trade off though for being so fast with good knock back!

Personally I don't have any problems with her Dsmash. It's a good move that doesn't really need any adjustment.

If not speed wise to fix her Jab, there has to be -something-. Seriously, it's just too wonky to work with reliably.

Zelda's grab itself is slow and is a poor OoS option because of it, but her grab/throw game is quite strong. Uthrow is a great combo throw which eventually leads into low percent Uair (or Fair) kills against a good chunk of the cast, but pretty far from 90% of it... anyway, uthrow setups make her slow (and slightly disjointed) grab worth it.

As far as Zelda's jab, I know it has issues... but speed isn't really one of them. It comes out slow but has almost no cooldown. The hitbox placement for the move is quite bad and it probably needs to be at least neutral on block and be able to link into its own hits properly, but those are simple enough tweaks. It's also fully disjointed from the start of the move although the sparkles appear otherwise.

I suppose if you put her grab in that sense, I guess it'd be a little much to make it faster. If I remember correctly, she actually has the 3rd best ranged normal grab of the cast. But I'm not really sure on that one, so don't quote me on it!

And to the people who don't understand Zelda's jab hit boxes it basically has these "wonderful" quirks:

- Unable to hit certain characters properly like Kirby, and Meta Knight because of their small size. What ends up happening is only like 1-2 hits of the jab actually hit resulting in extremely pitiful damage with almost no hit stun/knock back. This sucks. Even on other characters, for some reason the hit boxes just refuse to all hit because of how weirdly placed they are.

- COMPLETELY MISSES OUTRIGHT on certain characters that crawl / crouch because of how high the hit boxes are. This also sucks.

But yes, a hit box placement + how the hits link with each other adjustment would probably make it much better.

 

[Wingflier]

1) why wouldn't someone be using DI
2)she's not a heavyweight lol
3) her style has not completely changed
4) lol at jab and side-b being useless in vbrawl..
man its so funny when people pretend to know what they are talking about. now I can understand why crazy stuff gets added in.

1)Most Brawl players probably don't even know about DI. You have to remember that most of the Brawl community just plays it for fun.

2)"she's not a heavy weight" ...no comment

3)Yes her style has changed because a lot of the moves that were rarely used before are extremely useful now. Also the fact that she fast falls and her d-air comes out so much quicker makes her a lot different than before.

4)In vBrawl her jab was only useful when you jab canceled. I meant the full extent of her jab is now useful because the first hit now actually has enough hitstun to allow the second to connect. Since you know very little to nothing about the game, you obviously didn't catch on.

Also, I realize that her side-b was okay in vBrawl, it's just 100 times better now.

oh well dayumz im extra wrong. well I don't own a wii so...

Obviously...

Wing

 

[JCaesar]

And to the people who don't understand Zelda's jab hit boxes it basically has these "wonderful" quirks:

- Unable to hit certain characters properly like Kirby, and Meta Knight because of their small size. What ends up happening is only like 1-2 hits of the jab actually hit resulting in extremely pitiful damage with almost no hit stun/knock back. This sucks. Even on other characters, for some reason the hit boxes just refuse to all hit because of how weirdly placed they are.

- COMPLETELY MISSES OUTRIGHT on certain characters that crawl / crouch because of how high the hit boxes are. This also sucks.

But yes, a hit box placement + how the hits link with each other adjustment would probably make it much better.

Not every move needs to be good. Zelda is a solid character without a good jab. She has at least 4 moves that can semi-fill that role anyway, depending on the situation (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash, neutral B).

 

[_clinton]

People seem to forget that Zelda's Nspecial comes out on frame 4...as in jab speed...I for one don't see the point of talking about the jab when the only open part on her Nspecial is her head...

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Nayru's is at best very situational.

Invulnerable frames 5-12, starts hitting on frame 13. The invulnerability and the attack don't coincide, the attack is far from fast, and using it vs larger attack windows result in a pitiful 1 damage trade.

I'll still work on a "jab fix" but it needs to not be resultingly broken.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Obviously...

Wing

oh please. only thing i felt extra wrong about was her being a heavyweight since i stuck by the side of that. everything else you said was trashy.
even if her side-b is used more now, doesnt mean its just as useful as it was in vbrawl. i dont own a wii, but im positive i can still beat you in this game.

 

[Wingflier]

Hmm well that's interesting considering that you've never played me, know who I play, or seen me play before. No offense, but claiming you can beat someone without actually knowing anything about them shows an excessive amount of ignorance on your part.

Also, usefulness is a relative term. What may seem useful to one person may seem completely different to someone else. Just because you disagree with me does not mean you are right.

Wing

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

lol, again. her missiles were useful in vbrawl. ill be ignorant, thats fine with me. until i see some tourney results from you or youtube data ill be quiet. im just going by what i know (or what I don't know until you prove it to me). i know her missiles and jab were useful while you said they had no uses(or weren't as useful) then you say they were useful in vbrawl but whatever floats your boat man. if you have anything else to say to me just send me a message.

 

[Rion]

Not every move needs to be good. Zelda is a solid character without a good jab. She has at least 4 moves that can semi-fill that role anyway, depending on the situation (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash, neutral B).

Neutral B

I had a mild seizure from just the thought of using NeutralB as some sort of jab replacement . If it hits it's okay, but because of it's strange hit boxes (Zelda sure seems to have a lot of these...) you can either

1. Hit them with all the hits and knock them back decently, but ONLY if you're in extremely close proximity to your opponent (ideal) or

2. It'll do like, 1-2% damage with no knock back or hit stun, and you'll be a sitting duck.

Not to mention it's incredibly punishable upon shielding. It looks fast, but it only really hits on like, Frame 13. AND, even if you do hit with it, sometimes people will still manage to get a hit in during the attack and essentially interrupt it anyway, stopping it completely. In no way would I ever consider Nayru's Love a semi-jab replacement. It's too unsafe and risky.

Even as a reflector, it's severely limited:

Startup: 1-12
Hitbox: 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits)
Cooldown: 29-59
IASA: frame 60
Invincibility: 5-11
Reflects: 5-44

The after lag is pretty bad. Even if you do reflect the projectile, what will most likely happen is you'll get hit by another of the same projectile anyway because of how slow it is with it's wind down.

But anyways, Nayru's Love is hardly a priority to fix. It's mediocre, but I don't mind it that much. If you really REALLY need to reflect something, it gets the job done (as long as you aren't baited unto using it). If only the invincibility and hit box frames overlapped a little...

Ftilt I can agree can be a good semi-jab replacement. However its cool down limits it's usage for any sort of jabbing and it's still pretty punishable upon blocking because of that. But honestly, I don't have any problem with Ftilt the way it is now. Sometimes though, I wonder if it'd be better if it's knock back trajectory would just be changed so that it would match something like Ike's Ftilt (not power-wise people). But that's just my curiosity wandering. I'd just want to see how that would work out.

Dsmash I think I explained in my previous post. But once again, I don't have any real problems with it. Trying to say it's a semi-jab replacement seems a bit silly though... no offense to you!

Dtilt. Ah yes, the only "real" jab" Zelda seems to have. Comes out on frame 5, with a 6 frame linger. Not to mention it's cool down is comparable to her actual Jab (literally, this has 1 extra frame of cool down compared to her Jab). But the problem with this is it's coverage. You need to be pretty close for this to hit, and it only covers the ground whereas most jabs can at least hit people that are slightly mid-air. Though once again, I really don't have any problem with this move the way it is now. This is probably the closest Zelda has to any real jab however.


===

Her Jab is so close to being usable. Like, some small adjustments would make it really that much better. I really don't think improving her Jab is really going to overpower her.

Honestly, if they fixed Zelda's Jab like Ryoko suggested earlier, I'm pretty sure that would be it for Zelda's improvements.

...Unless they make Dair sweet spot even when opponents are on the ground! Mm... Ganondorf-esque Dair kills... (totally not expecting Dair to be changed like that No matter how amazing that would be).

Lord. Sometimes it's just exhausting to explain Zelda so much, since she's not really well known. So many misconceptions about her...

 

[Deleted member]

Despite Rion's 08 join date (whatever) he's actually a really good Zelda main (who ***** me in vBrawl) - I imagine his suggestions are quite fair.

 

[Yingyay]

Zelda is fine now, she really doesnt need to use jab.
Dtilt is good enough
-it combos into itself at low percents
-it combos into usmash at higher percents

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Sheik is fine, too. Learn to use her shiny new Fsmash and forget about Fair and Dsmash because they're more than well off :3

To be fairly honest though, I don't find Zelda as viable as Sheik.

 

[JCaesar]

I'm not judging anyone by their join date.

I don't need Zelda explained to me. My best friend Red Bandit mains him, and I know most of the frame data.

Neutral B is only useful for the invincibility frames. It beats things that none of her other moves can. Obviously very situational and you should never spam it, hence "semi-replacement."

Ftilt is a good setup at low %, and dtilt is a good setup at high %. Dsmash is just a great killer in the right situation, but more punishable than her tilts.

It definitely wouldn't hurt if her jab was better, but she certainly doesn't need it to be good.

 

[Magus420]

1) why wouldn't someone be using DI

Because the startup of the move + reduced hitlag in B+ is shorter than/comparable to human reaction time? If you get hit unexpectedly while in the middle of trying to do something else it's not unusual to DI it poorly.

 

[Rion]

Zelda is fine now, she really doesnt need to use jab.
Dtilt is good enough
-it combos into itself at low percents
-it combos into usmash at higher percents

Funny you should say that... inside joke with the weeklies I attended yesterday, lol.

DeLoRtEd1, I'm not very sure who you are haha. Were you at the weeklies too?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

A "jab fix" for Zelda will probably make it into a Nightly build for testing and you can play around with it then.

 

[Deleted member]

Funny you should say that... inside joke with the weeklies I attended yesterday, lol.

DeLoRtEd1, I'm not very sure who you are haha. Were you at the weeklies too?

Umm you beat me in our pool @ Let's Brawl Toronto. I subsequently quit Brawl.

 

[Rion]

Wooo ;D ultimate jab power! Awright (kinda, not really, maybe?).

Jeez, you guys reply quickly...

Sheik is fine, too. Learn to use her shiny new Fsmash and forget about Fair and Dsmash because they're more than well off :3

To be fairly honest though, I don't find Zelda as viable as Sheik.

That video with you VS Magus (Marth's Side B)... the minute you changed to Zelda it was just heart breaking to watch . I'm a pretty stubborn Zelda main, but watching stuff like that really -really- makes me wanna switch to Sheik to avoid all the unnecessary gayness.

Marth SideB gayness. That's right! OK I'm done now, sorry. :embarrass

Sheik just has way better tools to just pressure opponents because of her speed (though I'm sure that's not that only reason). I won't say much more since I don't really have much experience with her, but it also feels like she has much less instances where she's vulnerable compared to Zelda.

It definitely wouldn't hurt if her jab was better, but she certainly doesn't need it to be good.

Oh yeah. They could totally just not upgrade her Jab and she'd still be good. I just feel like a lot of good characters have a good Jab, and Zelda having one would just be one step to making her a more effective character. Small improvements are still improvements after all, right?

Umm you beat me in our pool @ Let's Brawl Toronto. I subsequently quit Brawl.

Wait, I didn't make you quit did I? LOL Boy that was long ago... I hope you're doing well.

 

[Wingflier]

Because the startup of the move + reduced hitlag in B+ is shorter than/comparable to human reaction time? If you get hit unexpectedly while in the middle of trying to do something else it's not unusual to DI it poorly.

Thank you Magus. We can't all DI perfectly everytime.

 

[Yingyay]

Sheik is fine, too. Learn to use her shiny new Fsmash and forget about Fair and Dsmash because they're more than well off :3

To be fairly honest though, I don't find Zelda as viable as Sheik.

I've never heard truer words than this.
Sheik's fsmash is finally a smash attack. She's perfect now.
Zelda is viable too, against the puffballs. She has a way easier time dealing with them than sheik does.

 

[HeroPenguin]

I'm liking the new BrawlPlus.net site, but I do have one comment. The Changelog on the Nightly and Official set pages is REALLY hard to read. The text is really really small. It'd be great if that could be increased.

 

[GHNeko]

If you have firefox, just press ctrl and then scroll up on your scroll wheel to zoom.

Hell, works in IE too. Dunno about opera or chrome. :V

 

[HeroPenguin]

The thing is, most of the rest of the site, and most other sites I visit are all fine. It's just that one changelog bow, which I'd like to add did not have the same problem on the former site. I figure it's more reasonable to suggest that it might be too small than to make everything else blind-people-o-vision for the sake of that one site.

(in other news, yes, the ctrl+mousewheel trick does work for Chrome)

 

[Mystic101]

List of impractical moves on the top of my head

ness/lucas netral b

G@W chef

samus bombs

zelda sourspots

wario downsmash

gannon uptilt

falcon punch (anyone seen the difference from meele, its epic slolw now)

links arrows are semi usesless

ivysour dtilt

squirtle watergun

is it possible to increas tripping chances on slow weak dtilts?