Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Wingflier]

Just because something isn't "broken" doesn't mean it can't be improved. If everyone had that mentality, then the human race would never have gotten anywhere, as they would not have sought to improve things that are already commonly thought to be "acceptable."

Actually, most of the breakthroughs and advances of the human race has come through discovering new things and understanding the old. Not fixing things which were already working fine.

Also, a better understanding of things leads to a potentially different perspective on whether it is "broken" or not.

Since the criteria by which you guys are considering changing characters is based off of random people's opinions, I would hardly consider that to be a good understanding of what is broken.

No, there may not be a universal formula for game balance, however, you seem to underestimate our ability to notice and correct problems.

I do not mean to undermine you or to imply that you have done a bad job at balancing this game. On the contrary, I think you guys in the WBR have done a fantastic job. I am just concerned when from several pages ago it went from some of the main members of the WBR like Falco400 strongly against any such changes on G&W too the WBR being beaten into submission by requests...

Trusting your own judgments is just as important to listening to the community, regardless of how adamant we may be.

Wing

 

[Mattnumbers]

I do not mean to undermine you or to imply that you have done a bad job at balancing this game. On the contrary, I think you guys in the WBR have done a fantastic job. I am just concerned when from several pages ago it went from some of the main members of the WBR like Falco400 strongly against any such changes on G&W too the WBR being beaten into submission by requests...

Trusting your own judgments is just as important to listening to the community, regardless of how adamant we may be.

Wing

They weren't "Beaten into submission", they saw the logic in people's arguments.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Nerfing Falco's lasers didnt stop him from spamming them so its like nothing changed.

Me and JCaesar were talking about Falco's lasers a few weeks ago, and we came to the conclusion that they're still a little overpowered in the fact that they can completely and effortlessly shut down taller characters. I was going to propose a nerf/trade-off for the lasers that would make it less spammable but still useful, which is really the only thing that is making Falco "OP"ed right now (no, it has nothing to do with the shine and utilt changes). However, I want to wait till all this talk is settled down and taken care of first before really trying to push for it, because other characters are in need of more dire fixes.

Also more depth to G&W = good, but I'm not a G&W main so I'll let them figure it out.

 

[Kuga]

Me and JCaesar were talking about Falco's lasers a few weeks ago, and we came to the conclusion that they're still a little overpowered in the fact that they can completely and effortlessly shut down taller characters. I was going to propose a nerf/trade-off for the lasers that would make it less spammable but still useful, which is really the only thing that is making Falco "OP"ed right now (no, it has nothing to do with the shine and utilt changes). However, I want to wait till all this talk is settled down and taken care of first before really trying to push for it, because other characters are in need of more dire fixes.

Oh my god,here we come.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I love how you're complaining about a nerf. Not a trade-off, just a straight up nerf.

 

[Yingyay]

Falco's lasers are his defining point. Its not invincible and has been in since melee. So I would leave that. I only mentioned the lasers in my post above to describe how a trade off can act as a net gain.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Falco's lasers are his defining point. Its not invincible and has been in since melee. So I would leave that. I only mentioned the lasers in my post above to describe how a trade off can act as a net gain.

Oh no, I wasn't going to consider ****** them. I know that they are the centerpiece to his game. I heard from JCaesar that they finally figured out a FF during special code, and was hoping to see if they could take away Falco's SHDL so that they act more like Melee Falco's lasers (I heard that they tried that once before, and it sucked because there wasn't a FF during special code at the time). In that respect, they still can be used for whatever approach options lasers are used for now, as well as still being able to camp well, however that would give larger opponents at least a chance to hit Falco rather than just being completely shut out.

As JCaesar said: "[currently, Falco] feels like Melee Falco with double lasers". And in that respect I think he's a bit overpowered and agree with him. But I only want to pursue this if it comes with the FF during special code, since obviously it didn't work without it.

EDIT: good man CloneHat . That's exactly the effect I wanted.

 

[CloneHat]

The lasers aren't the problem, the hight of tall characters is. Characters like Ganondorf have no good way to get past the lasers, which makes it a near-impossible matchup. I think as long as Falco has a neutral B, this will be the case, but if we found a way to lessen this effect, it would be nice.

EDIT: Firing only one laser would be perfect, and we could buff it up to 3% again.

 

[Rudra]

My only question is: How would this be done?
If his jump height is changed, it would have to be so that he could still Auto cancel his aerials, that is, unless you're planning to do something about the blaster itself and not his jump height.

EDIT: Also, if the FF specials do come about, I would also like to ask if Laser DI is being considered too(so that you could at least Full hop Triple laser with control over it).

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Just some observations from playing a crap load of brawl+, keeping in mind that these two have been my mains and favourites since melee so 1) i know what i'm talking about and 2) I'm probably biased, and were I in complete control of the project, these two would be the best.

Marth: Overall feels alot better, a good balance between melee and brawl. The one thing i really hate is the over B buff. The move is totally useless now and near impossible to land. i don't care if you nerf the damage, just let me hit the final attack! Also, it would be sweet if his spike got a little more love. Maybe a 45 degree on the first few frames of his sour spot?

As for the trade-off for the Dair, I'd say make F-smash less strong. (You can kill a light character at 40%!). His spike is extremely situational while Pit's is a combo finisher...
Otherwise, I'd go for a F-smash with less ending lag but less knockback power also!
Less Risky but less rewarding?

 

[Jimbo_G]

I would like to concur with the Falco Blaster issue. My friends and I had a good 6 hour Brawl+ party last night and Falco's lasers were a bit of an issue. By no means do I main Dedede but I've been trying to make him a side character and I had an absurd time handling our local Falco main. Dedede's height along with his sluggishness made him nothing but a walking target. My other friends, maining Ganondorf and trying out his new hitboxes, ran into the same issues. If you charge him, he Fantasms to the other side. If you jump over him, you eat a juicy Up-Air or he just dashes under you. Without a reflector you can't stand your ground as he shots faster than powershielding allows, and having the best projectile in the game makes him the only character that can out camp him.

I know my playskill was not an issue in this situation as playing with smaller characters put us at about a 50/50 win ration, simply because the lasers are easier to get around. I fully understand his lasers are his bread in butter and in no way am I asking for a direct nerf. This is feedback I'm sharing with you as all 10 of us had the same general opinion about his lasers.

Keep up the good work, my friends actually loved Brawl+ so much we're replacing our monthly Melee tournament with Brawl+ this month to see what our community thinks.

 

[Roxas215]

Just some observations from playing a crap load of brawl+, keeping in mind that these two have been my mains and favourites since melee so 1) i know what i'm talking about and 2) I'm probably biased, and were I in complete control of the project, these two would be the best.

Marth: Overall feels alot better, a good balance between melee and brawl. The one thing i really hate is the over B buff. The move is totally useless now and near impossible to land. i don't care if you nerf the damage, just let me hit the final attack! Also, it would be sweet if his spike got a little more love. Maybe a 45 degree on the first few frames of his sour spot?

Falco: Feels really good to play, lasers are a bit more balanced but still incredibly spamabble. (mean that in a good way) His new down B is a great combo set up and is also useful for booting people unexpectedly off the edge. The only thing i would suggest is a bit more damage and alot less cooldown for his fair so i won't cut myself everytime i accidentaly use it and a bit more cooldown for his Dair when landing to make it a bit less of a combo fest.

And on a totally random side note i think we should add the Hybrid Air Dodge back in with the Air Dodge Landing Lag cool down code to slow it down. The DI air dodge would also give more recovery options.

I just went there.

Why should they change something because u accidentally did a move?

Also marth is top 3 and falco is debatable top 10. They do not need straight up buffs.

And the AD is fine the way it is. MAD is HORRIBLE with brawl physics. ABSOULTLEY HORRIBLE.

I would like to concur with the Falco Blaster issue. My friends and I had a good 6 hour Brawl+ party last night and Falco's lasers were a bit of an issue. By no means do I main Dedede but I've been trying to make him a side character and I had an absurd time handling our local Falco main. Dedede's height along with his sluggishness made him nothing but a walking target. My other friends, maining Ganondorf and trying out his new hitboxes, ran into the same issues. If you charge him, he Fantasms to the other side. If you jump over him, you eat a juicy Up-Air or he just dashes under you. Without a reflector you can't stand your ground as he shots faster than powershielding allows, and having the best projectile in the game makes him the only character that can out camp him.

I know my playskill was not an issue in this situation as playing with smaller characters put us at about a 50/50 win ration, simply because the lasers are easier to get around. I fully understand his lasers are his bread in butter and in no way am I asking for a direct nerf. This is feedback I'm sharing with you as all 10 of us had the same general opinion about his lasers.

Keep up the good work, my friends actually loved Brawl+ so much we're replacing our monthly Melee tournament with Brawl+ this month to see what our community thinks.

Falco pwns dedede. Always have and always will. Nothing should be changed just cause a Char simply beats another char. This is where CP's come into play. Everyone should have a main secondary and a thirdary!!! lol Falco ***** the heavies. Same as fox. Nothing is new.(pshhhhhhhhh pick up peach! She ***** falco!! lol)

 

[CountKaiser]

Philly, I told you before, the term is tertiary.

BTW, pick up G&W, he ***** peach. >.>

 

[Roxas215]

Philly, I told you before, the term is tertiary.

BTW, pick up G&W, he ***** peach.
>.>

Not as much as zss ***** g&w im so rdy for our rematch!

 

[Yingyay]

Pfft Sheik ***** all! That's right I said it!! >8D YA HA!!!

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to concur with the Falco Blaster issue. My friends and I had a good 6 hour Brawl+ party last night and Falco's lasers were a bit of an issue. By no means do I main Dedede but I've been trying to make him a side character and I had an absurd time handling our local Falco main. Dedede's height along with his sluggishness made him nothing but a walking target. My other friends, maining Ganondorf and trying out his new hitboxes, ran into the same issues. If you charge him, he Fantasms to the other side. If you jump over him, you eat a juicy Up-Air or he just dashes under you. Without a reflector you can't stand your ground as he shots faster than powershielding allows, and having the best projectile in the game makes him the only character that can out camp him.

I know my playskill was not an issue in this situation as playing with smaller characters put us at about a 50/50 win ration, simply because the lasers are easier to get around. I fully understand his lasers are his bread in butter and in no way am I asking for a direct nerf. This is feedback I'm sharing with you as all 10 of us had the same general opinion about his lasers.

Keep up the good work, my friends actually loved Brawl+ so much we're replacing our monthly Melee tournament with Brawl+ this month to see what our community thinks.

You should realize that winning at Brawl+ is going to be really hard with just one character. There are some very clear counterpicks in Brawl+ emerging - some I can tell within 2 stocks of the match.

What i'm trying to say is, Falco isn't broken because dedede can't handle him. he may be broken in other aspects and for other reasons, and for all intents and purposes falco may be ultimately too good, but it doesn't matter that dedede gets ***** by lasers. that's just a counterpick.

 

[Wingflier]

My friends and I had a good 6 hour Brawl+ party last night...

God that must have been fun...

my friends actually loved Brawl+ so much we're replacing our monthly Melee tournament with Brawl+ this month to see what our community thinks.

Awesome!

What i'm trying to say is, Falco isn't broken because dedede can't handle him. he may be broken in other aspects and for other reasons, and for all intents and purposes falco may be ultimately too good, but it doesn't matter that dedede gets ***** by lasers. that's just a counterpick.

He didn't just say DDD, he also mentioned Ganondorf and even explained that it wasn't DDD, it was his height. Since there are no big characters that can reflect projectiles and they generally have a problem with it, I find it hard to believe DDD is the only person affected.

However, I also agree with the argument that Falco may just be a good counterpick for bigger characters. If you only main one character, and that character is a larger, more massive one, you're not going to make it very far in a tournament anyways.

edit: If you want to bring up something broken, let's talk about Ice Climbers' infinite chain grab.

Wing

 

[Plum]

The term is thirdary. And after that forthdary.

I can go **** up the video from BtL and quote Truth on it. Anyone who wants to go against that is instantly speaking some fighting words.

How would Falco's lasers be lessened in ****?
More end lag in between lasers?

 

[crazycrackers]

Lol I JUST noticed that Ness can do that wierd DJC thing XD

Anyway, wtf @ Falco being "broken". He just has SOME matchups that are heavily in his favor thats all. If your character has a matchup worse than 40-60 disadvantage, and its not a character you NEVER see...like...yoshi, then I'd suggest you pick up a secondary if your best interest is winning. Luckily for me, Peach's worst matchups are 60-40 ^_^

 

[Roxas215]

The term is thirdary. And after that forthdary.

I can go **** up the video from BtL and quote Truth on it. Anyone who wants to go against that is instantly speaking some fighting words.

How would Falco's lasers be lessened in ****?
More end lag in between lasers?

lmao im the one with that quote not truth. Ask count kaiser. Me and truth both were commentating. lmao! Im killing truth for getting credit for my quotes!

 

[Plum]

lmao im the one with that quote not truth. Ask count kaiser. Me and truth both were commentating. lmao! Im killing truth for getting credit for my quotes!

My bad... been too long since BtL to remember that
*cough* maybe truth is just cooler *cough* >_>

 

[Roxas215]

*cough* maybe truth is just cooler *cough* >_>

i dont deny this. lol

 

[CyberGlitch]

For those wondering what nerfs G&W mains would like in compensation, we are currently in discussion on it in our character specific topic.

I think that a tradeoff could be very effective for character balance, and it doesn't have to buff G&W overall. For example, a nerf to his turtle could make his ability to dominate a certain segment of the cast much less effective, and the matchups between him and others would be much more even. G&W's problem matchups, those that can get around his one big tactic (sure you could argue a few more approach options with other moves, but who are we kidding? You use the turtle) would be much less benefited by this nerf of his, but his increased options with chef might still help him mix up his game and gain an advantage over these players. Everyone wins, as a G&W main I'm not really concerned with owning certain opponents with shallow tactics. If the matchup is more even, and depends on good use of G&W's (hopefully) increased options that would be fantastic. Character balance ends up seeing a very positive improvement.

Just what would be a fair nerf is hard to judge. If something as significantly as G&W's back air is nerfed, a slight speedup on the startup of chef might be in order to make an appropriate tradeoff. I'm more concerned about reducing the wind down, of course, but just doing that does not make it a good move to use. It'd still be situational (basically for bait or pressure tactics).


Besides Hylian, I don't know if there are any G&W mains in the WBR, but I trust that if we give one or two suggestions as to an appropriate nerf/nerfs then they'd figure out the best balance for the tradeoff.


We plan on doing tests right now modifying framespeed (something needed for the chef), but we don't know the hitbox data for moves we potentially would like to nerf so we can't test modifications for it. If anyone can help us with this, please visit our topic.


We will be working for a fair tradeoff that will not only benefit G&W, but will likely benefit a good segment of the caste who currently have a hair matchup against him (this is my ideal, at least). We appreciate the support we've received.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I also find myself to be in agreement about Falco's lazors. Being able to shoot two lazors with any short hop into a side-b to hit/run/dodge the taller characters is just plain frustrating. That, as well as him being able to semi-chaingrab with Down-throw > Jab > Down-throw on bigger characters.

I don't find it necessary for Falco to have THAT much going for him against the taller characters. I mean the chaingrab can be escaped from, as far as I know, and at the most I think it went up near 50%? Lazors, however, will always work, and Falco, being able to shoot TWO from any jump, might just seem absurd.

In conclusion, I definitely agree with making him only able to shoot maybe one in a short hop or so.

 

[goodoldganon]

We are going to move Fox's and Falco's side-b hitbox behind them like in Melee, meaning you can hit them before they hit you if you have good prediction skills. Right now it requires precise timing as well as the ability to read minds. This should hurt both of their camping games.

Falco rolls the tall characters, cept Snake (lol crawl) and though unfortunate cause really none of them are great (cept Snake lulz) it isn't that bad of a situation. Tall characters and heavies have been getting a lot recently so they should be more in line with the rest of the cast. Having one guy who dominates them isn't the end of the world. If you only play tall and heavy guys then pick Snake, otherwise chose someone else and take to heart this message:

You should have a very solid secondary who covers your mains weaknesses, since even MK will be able to be counterpicked when Brawl+ is gold.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

We are going to move Fox's and Falco's side-b hitbox behind them like in Melee

Wow definitely not something I wanted to hear. Fox could probably live with it because his up B goes a decent length, but Falco's only reliable method of recovery is now out the window. More concerned about any offensive implementation of the move however, and this might (MAYBE) improve its overall comboability by giving Falco more time to react out of it due to the move hitting later, though I can no longer use it as a pseduo-combo starter reliably.

But I've always been one to talk about having an open mind, so I'll try it out and see if it works. I support it being changed for anti-camping purposes, I just don't want it to effect my aggro game with it. As long as that aspect of it still remains intact, I will be hunky dory.

Falco rolls the tall characters, cept Snake

In Brawl+, I roll Snake too .

Thanks in part to the phantasm .

 

[goodoldganon]

I should never have said going to, that was a poor choice of words. It is more like considering it. A nerf to Falco's recovery is something we are aware, but only testing will show if it is significant. When we try and make the change we'll make sure to work close with Fox and Falco to keep the move useful, but not make it impossible for slow guys to approach the two of them.

I'm also not talking about moving the hitbox back like this:


Falco-----Hitbox

Right not it is:

Falhitboxco

I want it to be:

FalcoHitbox

That's a terrible description but hopefully you get my point.

 

[Jimbo_G]

We are going to move Fox's and Falco's side-b hitbox behind them like in Melee, meaning you can hit them before they hit you if you have good prediction skills.

Or a Sex Kick? =3

 

[GuruKid]

Laaaaaate night Insomniac Smashfest livestream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/brawl-smashfest

 

[stingers]

Moving the Spacies Side B hitbox sounds awesome. Turns the Side B from a nigh-unpunishable move to a punishable one. Makes them into a Diddy-like character with a great on-stage game and a bad off-stage one. Sounds good to me @.@

 

[goodoldganon]

Laaaaaate night Insomniac Smashfest livestream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/brawl-smashfest

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

I have work in the morning. Now I'm gonna be dead tired. Which set are you using?

 

[Magus420]

Reverse Wimpy KO: +9001 pts

 

[Shell]

lulzz

Thanks Magus.


And some character's rapid holding-A-but-not-hitting-anything jabs can auto intercept the illusion, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Dan_X]

We are going to move Fox's and Falco's side-b hitbox behind them like in Melee, meaning you can hit them before they hit you if you have good prediction skills. Right now it requires precise timing as well as the ability to read minds. This should hurt both of their camping games.

Falco rolls the tall characters, cept Snake (lol crawl) and though unfortunate cause really none of them are great (cept Snake lulz) it isn't that bad of a situation. Tall characters and heavies have been getting a lot recently so they should be more in line with the rest of the cast. Having one guy who dominates them isn't the end of the world. If you only play tall and heavy guys then pick Snake, otherwise chose someone else and take to heart this message:

You should have a very solid secondary who covers your mains weaknesses, since even MK will be able to be counterpicked when Brawl+ is gold.

I agree. Falco has pros and cons like any other character, the fact that he's effective against clunky characters doesn't mean that his lasers should be nerfed/ruined. Other characters have an easier time comboing said clunky characters anyway, so said characters get into trouble across the board.

Anyway, Falco is VERY easily counterpicked. He's EXCELLENT on flat maps... and is meh to crap on maps with platforms. His lasers will account for almost nothing on maps with platforms... so you've taken away half the problem....

As for chaning the hotboxes on Falco's side+b, I'm not sure what this change means. If it is weakening the side_b recovery then it's terrible. Falco is easy to gimp, his up+B is TERRIBLE. Countering his side+b is easy with good timing. He relies HEAVYILY on his side+B to recover. I really would rather not see this changed.

Could you explain more why this should be changed, what the ideas behind it are?

I mean, his side+B is VERY punishable / predictable. There's enough lag where good spacing by the enemy will result in punishment... It can also be flat out countered with good timing. Or it can be neutralized with near perfect timing, causing no damage to either player, though still allowing Falco to illusion on by. The thing is, it's a fairly predictable move, one that Falco's entire recovery game is based on. Why change it?

 

[crazycrackers]

As for chaning the hotboxes on Falco's side+b, I'm not sure what this change means. If it is weakening the side_b recovery then it's terrible. Falco is easy to gimp, his up+B is TERRIBLE. Countering his side+b is easy with good timing. He relies HEAVYILY on his side+B to recover. I really would rather not see this changed.

Moving the hitbox behind Falco will make sideB easier to outprioritize significantly. Think like the priority it had in Melee. Aka, very easy to beat. Look at that clip Magus put up to get a general idea. It makes Falco very easy to hit head-on because the hitbox is behind you so you have to pass through your opponent in order to hit them.

EDIT: Although I don't believe the change would cause the hitbox to be as drastically behind fox/falco as it was in melee. The main purpose of this is to make the move more punishable when spacies use it aggresively or to zip past you.

 

[crazycrackers]

You should have a very solid secondary who covers your mains weaknesses, since even MK will be able to be counterpicked when Brawl+ is gold.

If your character has a matchup worse than 40-60, I totally agree with this.

 

[Wingflier]

Laaaaaate night Insomniac Smashfest livestream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/brawl-smashfest

Watched this for 3 hours straight! Good games guys, please keep these going.

You should have a very solid secondary who covers your mains weaknesses, since even MK will be able to be counterpicked when Brawl+ is gold.

I can't wait for this. MK is still really freakin good.

Wing

 

[shanus]

EDIT: Although I don't believe the change would cause the hitbox to be as drastically behind fox/falco as it was in melee. The main purpose of this is to make the move more punishable when spacies use it aggresively or to zip past you.

This explains our intentions pretty well

 

[timothyung]

Make it FalcHIToBOX?

 

[Plum]

Watched this for 3 hours straight! Good games guys, please keep these going.


I can't wait for this. MK is still really freakin good.

Wing

Anyone else going to agree with me when I say Wario may be bumped from even to counter in the transition from vBrawl to B+?

His airdodge + mobility is already > MK's aerials. Even with less invincibility, it just means the timing is a bit stricter on it.
IMO the biggest change is MK's lulzy onstage kill power. He has the ability to gimp Wario, but at the same time Wario shouldn't be gimped as long as he is smart with his bike jump. Again, his airdodges are are wonderful against MK's gimps... time an airdodge and just go right through MK if he tries to follow you offstage. MK just doesn't have the aerial mobility to keep up. So assuming Wario doesn't get gimped he is going to have to be killed onstage, which with MK's now poor kill power and Wario's weight + recovery is going to take a while. Even though Wario can be gimped, MK does have to get him off stage first too; heavy and floaty means its going to be hard to combo him offstage. Wario kills MK earlier, lives longer, can compete with him in the air and has a good enough recovery to not have to worry about MK's gimp game nearly as much as others.

The best way to put it is that Wario got better in B+ overall while MK got worse
As to how solid the advantage is, I can't really say this early on but I definitely feel like he has it.