Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[FrozenHobo]

Also, if Kupo isn't a part of the project anymore, why is he still in the WBR? There are a lot of deserving people who could fill that spot *cough*.

try again.

and did kupo start his own project? if so, where is it?

 

[PKNintendo]

why are all the ness mainers a bunch of ****ing babies?

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3163520

 

[GHNeko]

Marth is a good example of this. My current settings speed him up a lot, and double aerial shffls are very doable with just a little bit of practice, and with like, two buffer frames almost no practice is needed at all. But people seem content with keeping him floaty anyway because he's "good enough" and as he is, anyone can pick him up, buffer or no buffer, and instantly do double aerials like a champ, all at the expense of aerial speed.

Making Marth better in ANY aspect, including gravity settings to make his moves work better and give him a better "x" game is bound to get half the players on those who let the changes get through. Over half the players think Marth is the best character in the game. Alot of the players think he's top 3. So many think it's "omg so good" so any thing to improve Marth is met with rage, son.

 

[stingers]

dude

i don't care

those that are whining about things that don't really matter....just shut up and let the nightly build team do their thing.

 

[shanus]

I can't keep things civil because people dont listen until you start acting out. And even if its a single match-up its not just ivysaur..but I'll leave that up to you guys since I obviously have no clue as to what I'm talking about. B+ is just becoming shallow, not because of a move can be spammed, but when everything becomes too easy. A lot of players can agree with me on this but none of them wanted to say it because you guys dont listen.

PKNintendo, even when you asked for B and people agreed with you on the ness down b thing, you were given A anyway. You were ignored. Be-aggressive. B-E, aggressive. lol



I'm not going to stop *****ing about yoshi. But it doesnt matter, you guys should just erase his picture off the character selection screen. lol.

No offense to you, but this advice is trash. I don't usually read your posts because there is no content and the attitude you exhibit makes it even less quality. Posts which are intelligent and well-written (and provide proof!) get a lot more attention and a lot more credibility than this. I can't believe I responded to this.

 

[[TSON]]

why are all the ness mainers a bunch of ****ing babies?

Why are all of the non-Ness mainers joining the Ness mains together in a fashion similar to racism?


I. Am the main person crying, but when I speak hopefully, it is in behalf of all of the Ness mainers.

What I say is fact.

Should we not all be crying right now to ourselves, things would never be changed, and we would be forced to main someone else.

Which would be gay.


Horribly gay.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm sorry Stingers, but some of things do matter. To us anyway.

Good to see you Shanus. How is PKT1 lagless working? Last time you said there were line complication. Is that resolved?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Why are all of the non-Ness mainers joining the Ness mains together in a fashion similar to racism?


I. Am the main person crying, but when I speak hopefully, it is in behalf of all of the Ness mainers.

What I say is fact.

Should we not all be crying right now to ourselves, things would never be changed, and we would be forced to main someone else.

Which would be gay.


Horribly gay.

you know whats gay? having to look after an idiot AI all match only to have her move away from you and into a fully charged ivy usmash. fix. her. now.

 

[shanus]

My only beef with the new magnet is that Ness appearantly refuses to absorb projectiles during its super armor frames. Gonna test it more...but still.

The new Ness is more reasonable than 7/10 Ness, I unfortunately have to agree. The infinite PKT1 arguement was about how it made people actually bother to gimp Ness, instead of going, "lol thundah".

Though with his new options, I'm gonna back off and say that one PK Thunder(but sped up) is fine. vbrawl Ness only had double jump, while nightly Ness has a bit more before he's doomed to simply fall half of the time.

Alright, so here is something:

In vB, start up 9 frames (you can't absorb here then either), starts absorb, frame 10

Current rendition: start up 7 frames (WITH SUPER ARMOR), absorb frame 8

 

[Blank Mauser]

Stopped reading right there. The moved "actually" worked already. Only thing your doing is making it easier to land. Charizard has 8 ko moves. Now you want to make one of them easier to land then it should be? That makes no sense.

Oh sorry, I meant "Actually works on good players."

No. Ness's zap jump is a pointless addition that gives him something that he doesn't need. Again, I will say, HE HAD AN AVERAGE RECOVERY; HE DOESN'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE. IF YOU'RE SO OFFENDED BY THE FACT THAT HE STRUGGLES TO GET BACK TO THE STAGE, MAKE PK2 GO FARTHER. Zap jump. Is pointless. It pushes my buttons to the max. And who uses any aerial out of djump other than nair and dair anyways? These may look neat, but it's a stupid switchoff. Ness needs better capabilities onstage to make up for what he lacks in recovery. He is supposed to lack in recovery. LACK IN RECOVERY.

How is zap jump pointless? Fair is a plenty useful aerial to use out of double jump, and more importantly, a zap jump. Not to mention if you read what i explained, zap jump and magnet both have practical uses on-stage. What does a longer PKT2 do? Its already long enough to recover, he can still be gimped. How many times do you see Ness' PKT2 not go far enough? When it connects with an opponent?

Also, this is where I disagree with many Ness mains. Ness is fine on-stage, and I've always believed him to be superior to Lucas. Some people believe tampering with recovery is making him more of an all-around char, but they'd have to imply that recovery was what held him back in the first place, and I don't see you supporting that one bit. All your saying is that hes "supposed to lack in recovery", and not looking at the relation to the big picture.

You can have your **** super armor. Ness is too easy to gimp now. TOO EASY, PIECE OF CAKE. And you decide "Hmm, let's give him Zap Jump!!!1" HE DOESN'T NEED ANOTHER WAY TO RECOVER. If anything, you should have just made PK thunder infinite again, or made PK2 go farther. Those should have been the only two considerable solutions.

Whys that? Because no one wants to bother to make use of zap jump as the recovery tool it really can be?

 

[stingers]

just let them do their jobs...instead of whining about how ness isn't the perfect character.

 

[Revven]

Stopped reading right there. The moved "actually" worked already. Only thing your doing is making it easier to land. Charizard has 8 ko moves. Now you want to make one of them easier to land then it should be? That makes no sense.

I didn't even get to actually discuss the Zard Usmash with shanus & co. and I use the move a lot, it did link just fine before and set up for a lot of options (mostly Uair) but, even so, is one move (okay maybe not one move, but this IS the move that started this whole whining) really worth the effort to ***** about? It'll probably get taken out now anyway. Things like TL's and Sheik's Fsmashes were necessary to 'link better' as their problems weren't with spacing, it was literally with their hitboxes.

I'm honestly not quite sure why Pit had to be rebuilt either. I don't even remember if Cape told me what Sagemoon thought of the Pit "rebuilt" stuff. Either way, I don't think the intentions of that stuff is to make Pit "easier", it may just be an accidental outcome that can't really be fixed unless all the changes were undone (except for the HSM on his Dtilt).

Also, I hate it when people are broken records about how 'easy' this game is. If you want it to be harder, things like Ness SA on Down B makes things a bit harder for someone because it's essentially like an AT.

And GPDP, I don't think tweaking gravity is going to make the game any harder either..... that's just unnecessarily changing something because we can and forcing people to get used to the 'new grav' for their characters they may have been playing for months.

It's not that the game lacks 'depth' (which is thrown around TOO MUCH, stop it), it's that nobody is trying to FIND that depth with their character, it's as Blank said earlier, nobody is challenging the other's strategy with a different one... which is why the game feels stale and feels 'easy'.

I hate it when people call it 'easy' just because it is. You don't need to say it, we know it, there's NOTHING that can be done about it unless ya'll want a bunch of unnecessary button presses...

 

[PKNintendo]

Fair/zappy jumpy thingy>Zap Jump (for Ness)

Alright, so here is something:

In vB, start up 9 frames (you can't absorb here then either), starts absorb, frame 10

Current rendition: start up 7 frames (WITH SUPER ARMOR), absorb frame 8

Good ****.

Agree's with Falco, I honestly couldn't care less if things get easier.

 

[5ive]

just let them do their jobs...instead of whining about how ness isn't the perfect character.

Not exactly whining. They're just trying to give feedback, which is the point of this thread. It kind of escalated into this big argument, but at least the Ness mains meant well.

I wouldn't go as far to say they're trying to make Ness the "perfect" character, but they are just trying to make Ness more viable in their eyes.

Also, PK Nintendo, those objections have to stop. You can only do that so much until it's just not cool anymore.

 

[Shell]

The best way to get us to listen to your feedback / ideas, contrary to Skip's opinion, is not to be an asshat and raise a fuss.

Rather, make your suggestions in code form. The more specific the suggestion, the better. For example, say you think a character's too easy. Don't just say that, say what moves you think make the character "easy," and then suggest specific changes. Even better is when you supply a functioning code to be thrown straight into a set and tested. This, above all else, will get ideas considered.

Look at what Magus did with Luigi -- he thought he was a little to E-Z, so he did a very thorough over-haul of Luigi, tested it extensively, and then posted the codes for others to test.

If you don't know how to work the codes, just hop on IRC.

This doesn't just apply for fixing E-Z modes, but any change suggestion.

 

[CountKaiser]

TSON, you whine about zap jump because that method of recovery was useless, then you go on to say that Ness needs a better recovery.

....What the hell is wrong with you?

Also, Ness is awesome onstage, you simply need to get better is all.

And you do bring up a good point, why so many changes to Ness's dtilt? Did the move really warrant a damage nerf?

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'd bring up SA requests for ICs' tether, but you guys are already aware of it...

 

[PKNintendo]

It got nerfed?!?

I didn't even notice. Not that I notice anyway, but why was it nerfed?

 

[shanus]

Fair/zappy jumpy thingy>Zap Jump (for Ness)



Good ****.

Agree's with Falco, I honestly couldn't care less if things get easier.

But you can do fair zap jumps not. It can't be mutually exclusive, at leeast with current tools. If ness mains don't want it (I have no idea why they wouldn't lmao), then they can hurt themselves and *be different*.

I'll remove zap jump and speed up PKT1 endlag. However, I'm not dishing out infinite PKT1's yet for well a few reasons. One of which is CAM lines. But the other being in that I think people need more playtime with this as most still haven't found out how awesome downB is yet.

 

[GPDP]

I'm pretty sure Brawl+ is meant to be "beginner friendly" per-say. I'm not speaking for the whole project, but this is called Brawl+. It's easy to pick up, but hard to master; similar to vBrawl. Of course we can all agree these changes make for a faster, and deeper game. By deeper, I mean there are more offensive options making the game more fluid, rather than an overly defensive game in what we call Brawl.

We can argue for days, but no one is forcing anyone to play, or part-take in this project. It's fine that Kupo left, but I, myself truly enjoy this game and it's game play that caters offense.

The "ease" you state is exactly what we are aiming for. Easy to pick up, but hard to master. So what if you can double fair easily? Will that really make for a win in the long run? No. It is how the player handles the character which translates into a win. This is comparable in Melee; wavedash =/= win. It can help, but it is merely a tool to HELP oneself win. No matter how easy it is to execute moves, winning at a high level requires a higher level of thinking.

Also, if Kupo isn't a part of the project anymore, why is he still in the WBR? There are a lot of deserving people who could fill that spot *cough*.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the game being easy to pick up from the beginning. But I think the learning curve has been deliberately stunted throughout the development of the project, to the point I believe it's not really that hard to master. And my problem really comes when ease of use comes at the expense of game attributes such as speed.

In this regard, Brawl+ is being held back. The excuse used to be we didn't want to alienate vBrawl players by speeding up the game too much for fear of the Melee 2.0 stigma, and after that it was due to code limitations. But once those are gone, what then? Why not speed up the game further? By leaving characters as floaty as they are, some of their options are not as viable as they would otherwise be. The shffl game in particular suffers. And if the worries lie with a desire to preserve an AT such as Marth's double fair, there are ways to work around it that do not involve giving him a higher short hop, such as slightly speeding up the fair's cooldown.

Just some things to consider. Like I said, I'm not like kupo in advocating for an arbitrarily high entrance barrier. I just think in some respects the game is being held back in order to keep that entrance barrier much lower than it should be.

Also, kupo's not in the WBR anymore.

And to Neko, that's why I think EVERY character should get a similar treatment.

All I'm asking for is that you guys try.

 

[PKNintendo]

But you can do fair zap jumps not. It can't be mutually exclusive, at leeast with current tools. If ness mains don't want it (I have no idea why they wouldn't lmao), then they can hurt themselves and *be different*.

I'll remove zap jump and speed up PKT1 endlag. However, I'm not dishing out infinite PKT1's yet for well a few reasons. One of which is CAM lines. But the other being in that I think people need more playtime with this as most still haven't found out how awesome downB is yet.

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!

Don't remove the fair rise.
I was saying that the FAIR ZAP JUMP is better then the regular zap jump.

FINALLY a compromise.
(win through compromise I say)

We'll take that PKT1 buff and eat it.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not exactly whining. They're just trying to give feedback, which is the point of this thread. It kind of escalated into this big argument, but at least the Ness mains meant well.

I wouldn't go as far to say they're trying to make Ness the "perfect" character, but they are just trying to make Ness more viable in their eyes.

Also, PK Nintendo, those objections have to stop. You can only do that so much until it's just not cool anymore.

I don't mind people giving and making suggestions here, but I do mind it when people complain for the sake of it. If the game takes a direction you don't like then don't play it. If you feel a change will not help the direction we're currently aiming for then go ahead and speak up.

Honestly, I can't imagine someone fully comprehends the game if all they do is complain. Likewise, I can't say anyone has a right to complain when they don't bother to fully comprehend the game. It is my steel filter system, and it rarely fails me.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so... is that it then? have we reached a compromise?

 

[CountKaiser]

I guess.

Give ness lagless pkt1, and everyone is happy.

Leave everything else where it is.

 

[PKNintendo]

5ive, you don't like the objections?


-_-

 

[FrozenHobo]

well, now that thats over... IC discussion?

 

[5ive]

5ive, you don't like the objections?


-_-

I like them when they are witty and by surprise, but when they are overdone, they are just annoying and obnoxious. Wait, why am I even replying to this? Next time, post with an intent to continue the discussion.

/imahypocrite

oh wait, IC discussion. Plan Zero ftw.
ninja'd

 

[[TSON]]

you know whats gay? having to look after an idiot AI all match only to have her move away from you and into a fully charged ivy usmash. fix. her. now.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1310/funnydanceq.gif

How is zap jump pointless? Fair is a plenty useful aerial to use out of double jump, and more importantly, a zap jump. Not to mention if you read what i explained, zap jump and magnet both have practical uses on-stage. What does a longer PKT2 do? Its already long enough to recover, he can still be gimped. How many times do you see Ness' PKT2 not go far enough? When it connects with an opponent?

Zap jump is pointless to add. Why not just buff what he already has? I'm not sure how you could make that a liberty; all you're doing is giving him something that Lucas has, and for no good reason because, like you said, "How many times do you see Ness' PK2 not go far enough?" v:

And yes, mainly when he connects, although someone on the Brawl+ Chat said that it was impossible to fix that so eh, whatever ;B

Also, this is where I disagree with many Ness mains. Ness is fine on-stage, and I've always believed him to be superior to Lucas. Some people believe tampering with recovery is making him more of an all-around char, but they'd have to imply that recovery was what held him back in the first place, and I don't see you supporting that one bit. All your saying is that hes "supposed to lack in recovery", and not looking at the relation to the big picture.

Recovery SHOULD BE what holds him back is what I am trying to assert. His strength SHOULD BE fighting on the stage. But from what I see every. single. person. who comes in here that doesn't main Ness starts posting long walls of text trying to change my mind on that. That is my relation to the big picture. Ness's recovery should feel lacking, yet not this easy or safe to gimp.

Whys that? Because no one wants to bother to make use of zap jump as the recovery tool it really can be?

No, it's because IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE THERE. Zap jump doesn't help anything but recovery, but you lot are upright refusing to just BOOST WHAT HE ALREADY HAS.

YOUR LOGIC IS ASTOUNDING

The best way to get us to listen to your feedback / ideas, contrary to Skip's opinion, is not to be an asshat and raise a fuss.

Rather, make your suggestions in code form. The more specific the suggestion, the better. For example, say you think a character's too easy. Don't just say that, say what moves you think make the character "easy," and then suggest specific changes. Even better is when you supply a functioning code to be thrown straight into a set and tested. This, above all else, will get ideas considered.

Look at what Magus did with Luigi -- he thought he was a little to E-Z, so he did a very thorough over-haul of Luigi, tested it extensively, and then posted the codes for others to test.

If you don't know how to work the codes, just hop on IRC.

This doesn't just apply for fixing E-Z modes, but any change suggestion.

I would do that, but the main code we're fussing about is already done.

I suppose overhauling Ness wouldn't hurt anyone though.

 

[PKNintendo]

Gotcha.

So kupo really left huh? A rift within the ranks?
Why did he quit Brawl +?

 

[[TSON]]

I guess.

Give ness lagless pkt1, and everyone is happy.

Leave everything else where it is.

Lagless isn't the common whine.

It's infinite.

 

[Revven]

well, now that thats over... IC discussion?

What about them mr. poop?

 

[CountKaiser]

TSON, Ness always had a boost jump with fair and PK fire, it was just so unnoticeable before that it didn't make enough of a difference.

And Ness was already overhauled.

Ness is fine, and I think he's getting a sped up PKT1. Stop complaining already.

 

[shanus]

New nightly build out, small bug fixes

 -Fixed SSS mistake

 -Removed Captain Falcon Dthrow change

 -Removed Ivysaur dthrow change

 -Removed Charizard Upsmash change bug

 -Removed Wolf Uair size change

 -Added Ness PKT1 (and PKT2, not as noticable) endlag animation speed up 5x

 

[Blank Mauser]

Stuff

Ness' zap jump is a lot different then Lucas', and has uses other then just recovery. This includes on-stage. And we aren't refusing to boost what he already has, we buffed his magnet. Boosting PKT wouldn't help much because there are hardly any times where it would be needed.

No one said Ness shouldn't be beast on-stage. In fact, a lot of people have been trying to say that he already is.

 

[5ive]

SSS mistake = the replay glitches? Or is it something else.

 

[[TSON]]

TSON, Ness always had a boost jump with fair and PK fire, it was just so unnoticeable before that it didn't make enough of a difference.

And Ness was already overhauled.

Ness is fine, and I think he's getting a sped up PKT1. Stop complaining already.

Yeah I see it.

I'm just not going to play Ness anymore.

Nice job guys.

 

[FrozenHobo]

What about them mr. poop?

well the whole nana teleporting thing (i know there's already being work done on that though), same with the codes not fully applying to her.

as far as 'additions' to them, if you can add SA frames then possibly giving popo SA frames with their tether from when nana grabs the ledge to when she starts pulling him up.

 

[shanus]

SSS mistake = the replay glitches? Or is it something else.

Unselectable levels

 

[PKNintendo]

That fast?

Well I'll be the first to say it. Many thanks, Shanus and Blank.
Thanks for bearing with us. See ya later. Imma going to test this out!

 

[CountKaiser]

Yeah I see it.

I'm just not going to play Ness anymore.

Nice job guys.

All because of a zap fair jump and you not thinking his onstage game is up to snuff?