Brawl Vs Melee Debate-Why Cant There Be PEACE?

[Prince Of Fire]

I am quite sick of the stupid Brawl VS Melee debate. To tell you the truth, I think Melee is a MUCH BETTER game. Its faster, takes more technical skill, and Marth is god.

That being said though...I seriously still think Brawl is a really good game. I mean....its Smash Brothers! It is just a video game! Some people are making such a big deal over what game is better...blah blah blah. Grow the F up.

Here, I will be comparing and contrasting different aspects of each game. The characters, the levels, the speed of game play, strategies, and our favorite and most talked about word...COMBOS!!! OMG!!! combos in brawl? WTF ahh!!!!!

The Characters

Alright, lets start off by looking at the cast of characters in Melee...(That are in Brawl as well.)

Bowser
Captain Falcon***
Donkey Kong
Falco***
Fox***
Game And Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff***
Kirby
Link
Luigi
Mario
Marth***
Ness
Peach***
Pikachu
Samus
Shiek***
Yoshi
Zelda

Now, when you particapte(d) in a melee tournament who would you say a MAJORITY of the people used when competeing?

Fox
Falco
Shiek
Marth
Peach
Jigglypuff and
Captain Falcon....right? Occasionally you will people using Luigi, Iceys, Ganondorf, Samus, Mario, Link, and a few others. But generally, these 7 top characters were the top competeing characters for melee. Agreed?

Now...with those statistics kept in mind..I want you to go back to the list of the Melee cast and think about all of those characters in Brawl. Ask yourself for each character...did this person get nerfed? buffed? What is different about them? I went back to STAR all of the top competeing characters for Melee so it should be quick for you.

After going back and looking at that list....what do you notice? If you are smart and you have a brain you will notice that EVERY Character in Melee that was looked down upon is WAYYYYY better than they were before. Don't think I'm right? Here let me show you....

Character BUFFS In Brawl- - -



Bowser-Bowser has received a huge buff in Brawl. He now can suicide kill, longer range, harder to kill, harder to combo, great jab combo and f tilt. His u tilt is still extremely good and with improved range on that too. His u air has also less start up lag.

Donkey Kong-With armor frames during his neu b, great out of shield options, a better f tilt, d tilt, u titlt and u smash...donkey kong has improved for sure. His sidestep is also incredible.

Game And Watch-Shield is better, b air is fierce, recovery is 10X better, lag free aerials to combo into d smash, great tech chase game, hes better.

Kirby-Kirby has become one of the best characters in the game and brings back good old N64 memories with him. He now has power, a great improved side b, more knockback to attacks...do i really have to explain this one?

Luigi-Luigi now has a better recovery, quicker aerials, better f smash, b air...he got better as well.

Mario-Aerials are better and his f air has improved. His f smash is better and is u air has been buffed as well.

Ness-I like Ness SOOO much more then I did in Melee. EVERY SINGLE AERIAL is better and faster, he has more power, and his spike is quicker.

Pikachu-Easily has one of the best d smashes in the game, his down b has been buffed so much, more power, b air hits like 6 times, and hes just better.

Samus-ehh a pretyy mediocre character in Brawl. Some improvements...some not so much. Shes pretty average...nothing horrible...nothing GREAT. Her jab is better and her d air is really good in this game. That has improved.

Yoshi-Yoshi is easily 8X better than he was in melee. He now has better jab combo setups, harder to intercept, and is more of a floatier character than he was in melee but with good muneverability in the air. Hes a good character in Brawl. He'll be one of those characters people start to realize is really good in a year or two...for sure.

Zelda-Dins fire, all of her aerials, jab combo, u tilt, f tilt....no one really used Zelda in melee....now people use her more than shiek...Zelda is better.


Now, whats my point of doing this....plain and simple----Every single character that sucked in melee is now REALLY GOOD in Brawl while every character that was good in melee has been nerfed significantly. This is a key reason (whether some of you admit it, or not) why people hate melee!!! Everyone thinks OMG !!!! marths range is horrible!!! i cant quickly spike with Falco!!!!?? WTF???? Peaches jump is horrible!!!!!!!

Wa wa wa the character(s) you wanted to be good in Brawl are not good. There are other options to choose from...pick someone else and a new character to get good with. The characters you enjoy (I was a Marth main in Melee and I still main him in Brawl.) are still good characters....you just have to drop your "melee play style" and have an open mind and play the darn video game! It's a game...stop being a ****. Pickup a new character like Snake or Meta Knight!!!!! There pretty much top tier!

The Levels In Both Games- - -



Now, lets look at the tourney levels allowed and what people GENERALLY use when playing the game whether it be fun or tourney style

Melee-

Fountain Of Dreams
Rainbow Cruise
Dreamland (one of my favorites!)
Final Destination
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium
Corneria
Onett? Maybe? haha
Big Blue
the other C Falcon level...(forgot the name of it)
Yoshis Story
Pokefloats


Brawl-

Battlefield
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island
Delpinos Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Luigis Mansion
Halberd
Distant Planet
Final Destination
Smashville
Corneria????
Castle Siege
Wario Ware (Ashelys song=trippy ****)
Pokemon Stadium I
Pokemon Stadium II
Frigate Orpheon
Norfair
Rainbow Cruise
Hanenbow
Pictochat

Brawl VS Melee is a 17-9 ratio. Last I checked, the levels in Brawl are a good 10X better than melee. I mean, all Melee really has going for it in terms of levels is dreamland, FD (its a better FD ) and MAYBE the layout of battlefield. In terms of levels and options in a tourne...Brawl really does ****. You can REALLY counterpick quite well in Brawl and use the level against your opponent if you are smart. I sometimes pick hanenbow or pictochat because i know people HATE that level...and guess what? It works. In melee you reall do not have as many options in terms of what you want to do....dull point for melee right there.

Game Speed- - -

Melee is a much faster, more intense game...without a doubt. you simply CANNOT argue that Brawl has a better, more intense engine...it does not. Characters fall fast, recovery faster, attack quicker....everything in Melee! I think its more intense...and thats a key reason why I like it better.

Strategies-Strategies for each of the games are also very different. Brawl is more of a guessing game and you TRULY have to know your opponent better in Brawl..than in melee. In melee it was as simple as...alright...i've got this sick combo going with Shiek...time to f air him off the stage! or....yup...just got a tipper with Marth! Time to just walk over that edge and play edge hogging against this captain falcon...and i win! Another example-your game and watch and you get hit off the stage against a falco at fd or yoshis story...your pretty much dead because now falcos spike will **** you! There are instances where YES! you can counter all of these instances and obviously get back and fight etc etc etc

Sweet Spotting The Ledge- - -

But what Brawl offers with the auto sweet spotting (even though its lame in other instances) is a chance for the characters that are lower tier (sonic, ganondorf, etc) a chance to just get back! There probably not going to be victorious but if there was no sweet spotting we would get stupid nooby Toon Link, Falco and DK players getting spikes allllll the time! Due to the fact that a lot of characters recoveries are REALLY good a dk can jump out now SPIKE with his f air and come back safely. Obviously the ability to do this reflects on the games SLOWER GAMEPLAY..but we have to work with what we have. So in a sense...lets look at it this way....

Lets say auto sweet spotting was out and you had to sweet spot the ledge yourself. Wouldnt characters easily just go underneath the stage and **** you do to the floatier feel to the game? I think so. Falco, Marth, DK, TL, olimar, wolf, etc would no longer fear jumping out a little further because you would be more cautious about returning with DK, bowser, and Ike......it would be more difficult and thus, those characters would not be so good. Its basically a balance...if slow gameplay HAS to be in....it makes more sense to put in auto sweet spotting. Just think about it for a second and look at characters like Mario, DK, bowser, ike, wario, ROb, pit and meta knight...all of those characters would easily get destroyed if sweet spotting was not in the game due to how hard they are to control in the air. This has nothing to do with weight of the character...but aerial control. If auto sweet spotting was not in the game....they would get spiked much more easily. Once again...im not pro auto sweet spotting....im just making a point. I think Melee is a BETTER GAME but some of you are just making ignorant generalizations before you give the game a chance or even think about what you are saying. Stop joining the bandwagon...and listen.


COMBOS-

Combos, do they exist in Brawl? Yes, (OMG he said they exist? WTF!!!?) but I think that they are MUCH harder to pull off, for sure. Also, certain characters can only combo at certain %'s...and not even that much within that %. I think the term "setup" is more proper in terms of looking at Brawl.

Imagine you are playing a Marth. Marth is going to try to get the Fair to fair to fsmash or to f tilt combo off. Now from this point you have a couple of options....hmm...lets stop right there.

Character Combo "Break Points"- - -

Basically this is what I personally call (its not official!) a Break Point. A Break Point is where your character has lost his ability to combo...and thus you need to rely on setups..and truly think about what your opponent is going to do next because you have lost the ability to STRING ATTACKS. Characters such as Shiek, Meta Knight, Falco, and ROB can string attacks up to a good 50-60% with ease...but after that...it gets harder. Each character has a certain % section that they perform best on.

Snake-He likes higher percents due to the fact that this gives him time to use mines, C4, and other explosives more effectively.

Shiek-low, she likes to use her f tilt to d throw attacks to get quick %

Sonic-High percentages, he relies on his spring to perform aerial combos and link u air to d air or b air effectively.

Marth-Lower percents. Most marth players try to use his fair to fair to fsmash and get that off. Every Marth player EVER knows that the higher the opponents %...the harder it is for him.

Meta Knight-low, he likes to use his d throw to f air or d tilt to dilt to f air to get quick %. He also cannot use his rising U air at higher percents and characters escape it too quickly.

Rob-In order to cause the wall of pain rob needs to spam his f air off the screen and make sure you do not get too high...if you get too high a % you can back off...air dodge...go under him...and make another attempt to get back.

Pikachu-Hes good at mid percents to try and link his dsmash to his down b combo. He also has multiple chainthrow options and different %'s.

Zelda-Zelda performs best at higher percents to get the spacing she needs to use both dins fire and control the match. Even if the player does not HIT you...shes still controlling you and giving her time to move about while your dodging her junk.

DK-A good mid % fighter. His u tilt does not combo effectively until a good 30-40%...too early and you can attack him back. He also can catch you in the air for a good u air. Too low a %...you'll be under the attack and too high....its too easy to dodge. He has the ability to knock people off at a good 60-70% with his neu B...hes best at around 30-60%

Brawl As A Giant Mindgame- - -


Brawl is not about Combos....combos are extremely difficult this time around....and it sucks I know....I admit...I like them a lot too but Brawl is different...you really have to think more this time around. Its more of a thinking game, not a button smashing, l cancelling, dash dancing, waveshine....freak fest. You have to try and out think your opponent.

Example-You are in a match and leading a 2 stocks and decide to taunt. What is your opponent going to do? Fsmash you as soon as they spawn or attack you in haste right? prepare for it...move out of the way and counter it! Your DK and your spamming your down B against a meta knight. When he dies...what do you think is initial instinct is going to be? Tornado!!!! Counter it! The whole match you have been gimping like hell with marth and spamming those fairs off the stage to kill him EVERY TIME. Your last stock switch it up...and remain on the stage and surprise him. Switch up your timing..do something different.

Brawl is a giant mindgame. There are no giant combos, just setups. If there are BIG combos, it is because that persons opponent just sucks and does not know what to do. Thats all there is to it.

Once again, I think Melee is a better, more fun game (even though i suck ) but I till think Brawl is good and even better in some different ways.

Stop bashing the game because

A-You can't understand it.
B-The character you liked in Melee is not as dominant.
C-You feel like you should not play it because you fear being owned by noobs. (it will happen sometimes, its a NEW GAME!) You cannot expect to be pro at something in two seconds.
D-Final Destination is not as good
E-Battlefield is not as good
F-Dreamland is not in there!!! (John, I admit...i love this level!!!!)
G-Meta Knight is too fast.
H-Pichu is not in it....wait? WTF!!!!?
I-Roy...your boy...did not make the cut! Fire for top tier!!!!


Look at the following players (CT, NY and NJ top performers)

Cort
PC Chris
Mew2King

These three players along with other dominant Melee players are performing quite well in the game. These players do not like Brawl as much as Melee I am sure...but are they crying about it and throwing in the towel? No. Some of you (myself included...) look up to some of these players. Come on my fellow Marth mains in Melee....dont you think Mew2King is INCREDIBLE as Marth? I mean come on guys!

My message to all of you is the following...if you do not like Brawl, simply do not play it. But for those of us who want to play Brawl...let us and leave us in PEACE.

-Poffy

 

[DarkDragoon]

o.o Well, I sorta had to skim that to get the idea of what was going on, its not very organized.
But from what I've read, its pretty much agreeable that what you said is generally true.
-DD

 

[Naybewon]

I love Brawl and I love Melee. I consider them two separate games, for the most part.

However, as a Zelda (not Sheik) main in Melee, I can tell you that her buffs aren't as incredible as you might think (she was actually a very good character in Melee, if you took the time to learn her--people on the Zelda boards have discussed and determined this thoroughly.) Also, people who were OVERLY excited about Zelda in Brawl have slowly been drifting from her and either reverting back to Sheik again, or changing to a different character altogether. There are lots of issues with Zelda still that make her a challenge to play skillfully.

Yoshi-Yoshi is easily 8X better than he was in melee. He now has better jab combo setups, harder to intercept, and is more of a floatier character than he was in melee but with good muneverability in the air. Hes a good character in Brawl. He'll be one of those characters people start to realize is really good in a year or two...for sure.

Consult a serious Yoshi player before making a statement like that.

"Yoshi certainly has TRADED some of his good Melee moves for some good Brawl moves, but he still has far less "great moves" than other characters do. All of his moves are average compared to other characters STILL and while you can certainly win a match with Yoshi against someone competent, it's going to be more challenging, in most cases." -The_Last_Yoshi

Additionally, they didn't just nerf Captain Falcon; they removed 3/4 of his brain.

Wario Ware, Hanenbow, Pokemon Stadium II, Norfair, and Pictochat are not tournament friendly levels and many tournaments do not allow them.

Zelda-Zelda performs best at higher percents to get the spacing she needs to use both dins fire and control the match. Even if the player does not HIT you...shes still controlling you and giving her time to move about while your dodging her junk.

While Zelda can KILL easier at higher percentages, some of her best combos are to be performed when the opponent has little to no damage.

Again, I'm a Brawl fan and I'm a Melee fan. I don't take part in the arguments between the "Brawl fans and the Melee fans", but this post demanded that I respond. There are several more things blatantly and almost offensively wrong about your post, but I don't have time to address the rest.

Also, I don't want to flame you needlessly because I do understand what you're trying to do.

So I just request a little less obstenance next time, please. Heavy research is widely appreciated by the intelligent members of the Smash Brother's community especially concerning controversial topics like this.

 

[Tyr_03]

Why can't there be peace? I dunno maybe we should start another thread on it.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Umm...dude you only say melee the better game,becasue Marth is an overpowered *******.I think the characters that was the god or godess of melee needed to be tone down.I want to see all the characters in the game use,not a lot of marth's or Fox's.Those people need to realize that tone them down was a good thing.

 

[trademark0013]

jus because only certain characters are used has nothing to do with it. look at every other fighting game played competatively

 

[Ryuker]

Right can't say I agree with you on everything but you got the right idea. It's nice to see a constructive post and non bias ( I know you like melee more but it looks like you took a objective look at both games.)
You list some positive changes as well as negative which is good this is how we should be looking at it.
One thing catches my eye and that is about the speed. It is true that some chars have gotten slower and the floatiness increases the time in the air. But I think it does depend on the character how fast you are and I notice that you can play pretty **** fast with some chars. It's also important too realise there are different category's which have a speed. In certain area's there has been an increase in speed ( shielding and dropping shields for example) so I think it's a bit incomplete to simply too the game is significantly slower and that this is a bad thing. I thing it will speed up when the players know were lag is and were not and how to stay close effectively.

One thing I really like about brawl is the change to close quartercombat. Like you say comboing is hard and not frequent but I like this challenge. If I hit someone know I have to be really carefull I don't attack to early cause they could get out and counter fast. Cause shields pop up and drop fast I am able to get really close and still avoid the attacks or block them or counter so on. I don't think this is necessarily a huge change but I like that system more then it is in brawl ( And this is not cause I think shieldgrabbing is broken or anything I would never say something like that). I also like the effort I have to put into killing someone. I can't charge a f-smash with marth anymore and hit someone of the stage in repitition but I often have to go of stage. I like the ofstage combat while at the same time I liked the gimp ko's you could pull off in melee. And I like chars like diddy which give me options I never had in melee and new stuff too create traps with. I like comboes in brawl as well as in melee they just require a different approach.

As for melee I like so much about it I can't list all of it. I played it for 5 years competitive now and I still love it. It's amazing too see how much the meta game can still evolve and how we keep coming up with new ideas. Playing brawl provided me with yet another view on how to play melee as well and I try stuff that I learned in brawl in melee and sometimes it works. I never want to chose between these games and I don't understand why players are picking sides right now. Everyone seems so impatient when it comes to brawl.

I think I like both game cause I just love the smash formula. It's so different from other fighting games in terms of battle tactics yet as well similar and the strenght of the formula is that it's basically timeless. It's simple to grasp yet so deep to dive into. At the same time no match is the same and it works in many different formula's which means I have to adapt constantly If I want to keep up. I love to explore the possibilities it offers find new stuff or adjust to a playstyle that I'm not used to. And with brawl there's a huge amount of stuff to discover again stretching beyond AT's and all the content. I love a challenge and brawl has given me plenty to tackle just like melee did for me the past 5 years.

I understand if players don't want to go through the effort again though. Melee is a fine game and if players prefer it I won't stop them playing it. But the pessimism of some members here is surprising and sad to see. Especially from some well known players that I thought loved a new challenge and wouldn't jump to conclusions so fast.

 

[echos]

EXCELLENT I enjoyed reading this post good job prince I play both melee and brawl and enjoy both, very informative

 

[iron blade]

It's fun to argue.

I agree that Melee is more competitive(as of now, only time will tell), but I think Brawl is more fun to play casually and comptetitively alike.

 

[Sosuke]

The only only problem i have with the whole Brawl-Melee thing is that theres no Dream Land. You can't have smash without that stage and music. =/
But oh well I'll get over it

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

nevermind this post.

 

[OmegaXXII]

I certaintly have no problem with Brawl, the only think though is that Mewtwo didn't make it, otherwise it would have been almost near-satisfactory for me

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Why can't there be peace? I dunno maybe we should start another thread on it.

this.

there hasnt been much disussion lately. why would the OP bring it up?

well atleast I like this one.

 

[fkacyan]

Fairly sure there's... Already the one thread allotted for this subject.

 

[quarzark]

Because this is the internetz and which gamez are better is seriouz buisness

 

[Deadandlivin]

This post is so true, though melee owns brawl by miles

Still do comboing in melee isnt as easy as you make it seem and imo mindgaming is a bigger part in melee since you actully have to do the mindgaming while aproaching.

Comboes do exist in brawl yes but mostly in form of chain grabs and jab locks