Camping; And a Response to Dragz

[FluxCapacitor]

I don’t need to explain how this came about; it is the dominate topic of tactical discussion on these forums, and throughout SSBB discussions everywhere. It is not only infuriating and frustrating, but also very boring, to combat. What am I describing? Camping: that new fad that seems to be pervading the smash community with indomitable force. Dragz has created a specific character thread on how to combat camping. I wholeheartedly share his sentiments regarding this new evil, and wish to address it on a more general, although admittedly visceral, level.

Why does camping posses such consistent success and power in Brawl? A few factors facilitate and perpetuate this most nefarious of strategies. Forming the foundation of this strategy is the game’s slow speed and floaty nature. (Dragz has suggested utilizing heavy gravity mode to alleviate this. I highly doubt the general public, and especially the competitive scene, will accept an alternative game mode as standard tournament regulations. Compounding this issue is the inability to use special settings online.)

Exacerbating the problem of camping is a more subtle mechanic; no lag after projectile moves. A downside to using projectiles in Melee was that it was punishable, due to lag after executing a ranged attack. (I know I am potentially opening the “melee 2.0” argument here, but the comparison is worth the risk.) Now, in Brawl, this is no longer possible. As I have observed, Pit can literally swing out of the ending animation of his bow shot. So, this example shows attaining proximity to ranged characters, which is an admirable feat in itself, affords little to no benefit or advantage.

Enhanced defensive maneuvers also serve to compound the problem. Shield grabbing is a powerful addition to camping, as L-cancelling has been removed, and only certain characters (ironically, most of the camp-heavy ones) possess auto-cancelling moves. Even if you are lucky enough to attain proximity and punish the camper (this is the most fortuitous and aberrant scenarios), they can simply roll, jump, or fly away to the opposite side of the stage, and resume their strategy. Oh, what fun!

Those who camp, in turn, develop the mentality that they are skilled or good for winning via this strategy, and those who fail to defeat it are simply bad. What audacity. I hope the majority of the community does not share their sentiments, as it would be very disheartening to me for the smash bros. community to degrade into supporters of such a very rudimentary, yet borderline infallible strategy.

So (excuse my poor metaphor) those who pitch a tent, construct a campfire, and bust out the baked beans are at a substantial advantage), able to inflict serious damage on their opponent’s character, and profound frustration on their opponent’s morale. What can be done? How can we stop this virulent malady from pervading the Brawl scene until the game turns into nothing but Pit vs Pit?

I know not the answer to this question. Hence the conception of this post. I was hoping that the rest of the Brawl community, especially those knowledgeable veterans here at Smashboards, could pose some suggestions other than “L2P” or “adjust.” Dragz’s character specific thread is a very good start, but it lacks content, and I believe a general anti-camping strategy can be composed by the entirety of the Smashboards community.

 

[BANSHI]

i understand your frusteration, i've ran into alot of spammers, but i did manage to find away around it

 

[Trig417]

Well as a TL Main, I am quite the projectile *****, and I don't think i'll ever stop, although my strategy is a direct result of my brother playing marth (and more specifically using ONLY forward A and shield grabbing).

 

[Mann]

People are still playing the game.People are still developing their own styles with the characters they want to play with. People are able to adapt, however, how quickly differs between people.

Camping is not a problem. Those who should win, will win. Experience.

There are already discussions on how to deal with camping.

 

[Maikeru17]

There is no way around camping.
It's just way too good of an option, and using a "camping" strategy is definitely not going to get banned in tournament play, either.
Not banning the best way to win means it will be used, as it is the best way to win.
No one that is good/wants to win is going to NOT camp, especially at a tournament.
Many of us DO wish that camping wasn't as amazing as it is.
However, within the next month, Brawl WILL be at it's peak, if not already there, and it will involve camping, tents, beans, and maybe even ketchup.

-Nox`

 

[-Mars-]

I also am having difficulties defeating "campers" and was sorely disappointed that Sakurai did not seem to put much thought into what these strategies might do to the game. I'm sure there is ways around it that will be expanded upon as we get a couple years in, but right now it seems we are left with no real viable way around these strategies. I find that the only way to effectively combat campers is to use an extremely fast character who can chase. After you approach, if they run away use your speed to predict their landing zone and punish accordingly, it's sort of like tech chasing, and sometimes can actually turn the battle in your favor. For slower characters, I have no idea they are pretty much useless against this strategy. I would recommend just not playing people with this strategy until more options are available, when you play online, specify that under no condition will you combat a user with aforementioned strategy. Sorry that's all I have to offer.

 

[Itakio]

Either I haven't played against very many campers or the ones I played against gave up because they couldn't keep up their strategy. There IS a counter for everything. One thing there is not is a sure fire way to keep other characters away, and there is also no sure way to run past an opponent once they close in on the edge of the stage. I don't really have much else to say or much experience in the matter, but for these reasons my only opinion so far is that camping is overrated.

 

[-Mars-]

Either I haven't played against very many campers or the ones I played against gave up because they couldn't keep up their strategy. There IS a counter for everything. One thing there is not is a sure fire way to keep other characters away, and there is also no sure way to run past an opponent once they close in on the edge of the stage. I don't really have much else to say or much experience in the matter, but for these reasons my only opinion so far is that camping is overrated.

If professionals begin to use camping, you will find that it is not so "overrated" as you think

 

[shadydentist]

The only measure of skill is the ability to win matches. If camping allows you to do that, then yes, people who camp are skillful.

 

[Itakio]

If professionals begin to use camping, you will find that it is not so "overrated" as you think

Meh, you're saying that camping takes skill to beat, so it is still just like any other tactic. I'm still not seeing a problem here.

 

[orintemple]

Camping is godly because shields are so godly. There is virtually no shield drop lag so one can shield grab, toss the enemy away and begin camping again. We need shield drop lag again, but we don't have it.

Also, as for pros using camping, well... We'll have to see if there are even going to be any pros cause if the game doesn't get a big time competitive scene then pros can't exist in the first place. Those people will just be, players know for being better than most everyone else, not really true pros who make a living of some sort off the game.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Professionals are the ones who know how to beat good campers, they already camp the scrubs

 

[Corigames]

Those who camp, in turn, develop the mentality that they are skilled or good for winning via this strategy, and those who fail to defeat it are simply bad. What audacity. I hope the majority of the community does not share their sentiments, as it would be very disheartening to me for the smash bros. community to degrade into supporters of such a very rudimentary, yet borderline infallible strategy.

I'm sorry, but if I rack up 100% on you before you hit me once by use of successful evasion, proper placement of attacks, and an understanding of my timing, spacing, and knock back, I am very skilled. To say that I can over power with a tactic that you don't approve of because you find it unattractive to the competitive scene is dumb. Find a way around it. That's how we accomplish anything. that's how we tore Sheik down from the top of the tier list. We found ways around.

Plus, it is harder than one may think to do the things I listed above, especially when playing against select characters who are fast, reflect, spam back, or can dodge well. To say my strategy lacks ability when it does while you have none is almost hypocritical.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Here's a hint. Bad campers absolutely SUCK if you get close to them. Since their strategy revolves around throwing **** at you when you're too far to reach them, and many of them have literally no game plan if you are near them, go close to them. Most bad campers do one of 2 things if you are close to them: shield grab, or shield then roll. Sometimes you can pressure them into doing something stupid if you are about 2 character lengths from them and doing nothing. If you seriously think that someone can just roll away from you every time, there are things you can do to a roll spammer (pretty much any move, when they are not invincible anymore).

 

[Tirno]

The only measure of skill is the ability to win matches. If camping allows you to do that, then yes, people who camp are skillful.

In the sense that bringing a gun to a fistfight and winning means you're more skilled. Winning is only a good measure of skill if the opponents are on an equal playing field. Some would say camping creates an imbalanced fight, unless, of course, both people can camp with equal effectiveness (Pit vs. Pit, for example). This imbalance can be especially problematic for characters who cannot camp as effectively. You're oversimplifying the issue. If you can prove that camping is not both easier and more effective than other tactics, then yes, winning with camping proves you're more skilled.

 

[Yuna]

How is camping or anything you or Dragz has brought up about combatting camping in any way new? Camping is a viable tactic in most multiplayer games.

It's just that in Brawl, camping is not only a viable tactic, the game engine itself makes it one of the optimal tactics. Is this good? No. Is it bad of people for exploiting camping? No. Because camping is among one of the best ways to win.

To choose not to camp yourself is all fine and dandy. To whine when people camp against you is effectively being a Scrub.

Yes, it's boring to do and boring to play against. But the game engine itself promotes it. Get used to it, because the game is designed around it! Unless we're gonna somehow ban it for being, I don't know, "boring", there's nothing we can do but try to adapt.

People who camp are not being dishnorable or sucky. People who camp badly are just bad. You will not be able to beat good campers using some kind of universal anti-camping tactics because good campers will not only know everything you know about camping and the game in general, they'll probably know more than you do.

Now excuse me while I play Toon Link (Camping Heaven).

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Let me start by saying I Like Ike, and regardless of my fondness for Dwight D Eisenhower, I also enjoy playing as Ike in smash bros.

Ike is hurt by camping HARD. I played on the internet with this one camper who swore no one had beaten him. Later he showed me a replay of himself beating Azen with the same camping strategy. It sucks. It sucks HARDCORE.

However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Camping, is actually much better online than it is irl. The reason being that the lag online doesn't allow you to react to projectiles in the same way you would irl. I don't know the solution to online camping, I doubt there will ever be one, however irl there are a few options.

The first of which being the Short Hop Air Dodge. Many people are gonna say "Duh" and "thats been suggested before" but I actually figured out something interesting. If I use the same timing on the buttons that I used for melee when wavedashing, I get an oddly low very horizontal jump that is almost entirely covered in invincibility frames, with the only vulnerable area being as soon as I land. We call it twist-jumping for short, which is a dumb name but is shorter to pronounce than short hop air dodge (with whatever stipulations for momentum there may be.

With this, my ike can get around most projectile spammers. The trick is as soon as you land you have no lag so you immediatley go into a neutral A combo. If they dodge behind me I simply Bair and call it a day.

Don't get me wrong its not easy. In fact, to be able to consistently twist jump in a way that minimizes your vulnerable frames is STUPIDLY hard, and it sucks that you have to spend so much effort while the other guy just hammers on B but it works. The hardest projectiles to dodge are actually most likely falcos lasers. I've managed to dodge pits arrows pretty consistently with this strategy. I have to make sure to stop and not be hasty in the middle sometimes so I dont jump (while vulnerable) right into an arrow but otherwise it definatley helps.

Oh and just so you know it is not Ike only, I use it with snake, ZSS, Marth, MK, Toon Link, Sonic, and other characters too.

 

[Frey]

You have to agree though, some guys do need camping(dedede). If The big D doesnt keep his space, any half decent speed character user ***** even the best dedede in seconds.

 

[Tyr_03]

Getting around camping isn't as hard as it seems. The best strategy is to act in unexpected ways. If you keep running at them and letting them shield you then yes they will win. A good player can get around camping. You didn't see Falco players SHLing in one place all the time in Melee because good players were smart enough to get around it and kill you. Although Brawl's camping game is stronger, it's not unbeatable at all.

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

In Melee, I had a friend who spammed Doctor Mario's pills to hell and wouldn't move. So I had to travers Final Destination just to get him. Now sure, I was Link. I could have easily retaliated with jumping arrows, bombs, or boomerangs but I decided to approach with forward smashes. His blade canceled out the pills and the fSmash moved me a distance.

Now in Brawl, I know not every character has horizontal movement with there FSmash, and fewer have disjointed hit box's. And on top of all this, that friend uses Metaknight now... But hey, if you use a guy with a Fsmash that moves them forward, maybe that attack can cancel out any projectiles coming your way.

I've yet to face a heavy spammer, to be honest, so I don't know if Link's blade still blocks physical and ethereal projectiles like it used to. I assume so since I read somewhere certain characters have smash attacks with reflect capabilities. And considering Link's boss fights, he better be one of them.

But yeah, haven't fought many spammers in Brawl but from past experience characters like Fox, Link, and Sheik have FSmashes that block most, if not all, types of missiles and move them forward.

 

[WastingPenguins]

The problem with these discussion is that few here have had the opportunity to play opponents who are both exceptionally skilled and fervently dedicated to a campy, ultra-defensive playstyle; thus, we wind up with a lot of responses about how camping isn't that good because they, Joe Everygamer can beat all their friends when they try to camp. Yeah, I bet you can, but your friends suck.

Defense in this game is incredibly overpowered, and lack of hitstun + super-shields means that even when you break through a camper's defenses you can't punish him for ****. All he has to do is DI away and airdodge to escape your feeble attempts at comboing and set up camp again.

My friend plays a super-campy Rob. That guy has a really incredible camp game. He mostly ignores fun things like comboing and edgeguarding (because you can't really do those things in Brawl if your opponent is good)-- he just projectile spams until I have to start chasing him around, and punishes me easily because his defensive options are almost always superior to my approach. It's not fun.

 

[choknater]

There is no way around camping.

You are a liar.
Lying is a sin, stop it.

 

[Yuna]

The problem with these discussion is that few here have had the opportunity to play opponents who are both exceptionally skilled and fervently dedicated to a campy, ultra-defensive playstyle; thus, we wind up with a lot of responses about how camping isn't that good because they, Joe Everygamer can beat all their friends when they try to camp. Yeah, I bet you can, but your friends suck.

Defense in this game is incredibly overpowered, and lack of hitstun + super-shields means that even when you break through a camper's defenses you can't punish him for ****. All he has to do is DI away and airdodge to escape your feeble attempts at comboing and set up camp again.

My friend plays a super-campy Rob. That guy has a really incredible camp game. He mostly ignores fun things like comboing and edgeguarding (because you can't really do those things in Brawl if your opponent is good)-- he just projectile spams until I have to start chasing him around, and punishes me easily because his defensive options are almost always superior to my approach. It's not fun.

Quoted because it's pretty much saying everything I said earlier and it needs to be said a 3rd time.

 

[TWK?]

This is exactly the reason I was disappointed to hear that powershielding to reflect projectiles was removed in the melee to brawl transition, but I digress. Although my local competitive scene isn't very developed as far as Brawl is concerned I have noticed camping becoming increasingly popular. After observing many of the matches that get posted on these forums, as well as a lot of play testing of my own, I've come to favor the often suggested SHAD approach. Another suggestion that may assist certain characters more than others (nothing too specific, just a general thought) could be to use super armor frames from certain moves, although this does cause a problem of leaving you open depending on the situation. I suggest these to players who haven't had much practice against camping, obviously these things would've occurred to the more seasoned players, and these are only broad general suggestions as not all camping characters or players have the same capabilities (Yoshi camping isn't very scary.... but Toon Link camping is downright terrifying).

 

[GoForkUrself]

The game doesn't promote camping. Certain characters promote camping. TL and Pit promote camping. G&W and Ike promote approaches.
To deal with campers, I just roll with the right timing to get about as close as I safely can(like about 1/3 to 1/2 of FD). From there I choose whatever I want to do, like a dash spotdodge, or any sort of aerial approach. It still isn't easy, but rolling to get closer makes things easier. Just gotta make sure you don't roll too far, or a forward smash will be there waiting.

 

[DiasFlac]

Toon Link's camping isn't that bad but maybe thats because all of the Toon Link campers I've played aren't good at it. Link's camping however is far worse. That wind in his boomerang is very hard to get by now I'm not complaining about camping. I welcome playing different tactics its good to learn how to get around them.

The characters I play aren't good campers but I don't really camp so I'm cool with that (Zelda and Ness) I've played players who got me to 1 stock high damage then complain about me camping when all I'm doing is being more defensive then usual. We all do it once we're in that predicament.

Camping is a dull tactic to play against but it is a tactic I've been seeing more and more of. I didn't even know what camping was until I played Brawl online. I don't care if players camp but what annoys me is when a campy player complains about another campy player. I've gone to smash forums where I've played someone who camps their pants off every match then a day or so later I'll be browsing around the forums and see a post from that player saying something like

"I hate it when people spam IceClimbers B move their is no skill in that!"

I see this all of the time its funny to think that campers hate their own tactic being used on them if anything they shouldn't mind it as much as a none campy player does.

I'm a non campy player and I could care less if someone camps on me after all it is just a game. I mean its not like ima die in real life if I lose to someone doing something I find boring in a game. I'll just keep playing that same person until I find out how to get around it with my Zelda and Ness and I'll use that knowledge on the next player that does the same.

 

[BigRick]

what can we do?

items on

 

[King~]

Ive played some moderate to heavy campers(good ones at that)

it was rather difficult at first but i realized most characters have ways around camping(even TL's godly camping) I also found jumping above then fast falling works rather well(Just my expirence aginst a good TL camper). i tend to rely on a lot of aerials to get pass camping or attcks that i know will cancel projectiles(most smashes do, Tl and links F-tilt). im not gonna say i win everytime but ive played a falco user who SHDL'd me to death, evntually got to him though. once you get close enough and get them out of postion you best captilize on the slow falling floaty physics of this game.

 

[DarkStraw]

There are many factors in the game that counter spamming, and most characters have some way to reflect projectiles. I dont consider "Spamming" to be a problem, maby for a few characters but then i suppose those characters suck right? Now camping is totally differnt, there are still many ways to fight it, Counterpick small stages, characters with disjointed hitboxes can cancel out projectiles. MOST characters can reflect projectiles with the myrad of tools the game makers have given us, i find it hard to believe there would be one tatic that would be impossible to get around. I hope they do allow camping in tournaments, the more tournaments that allow it the sooner someone finds a counter or a way around. I have yet to play a really good projectile spammer. Even if someone dosent find an solution, so what? Then the teir list will simply be in favor of characters that can reflect or bucket those projectiles. If you have someone thats pit, and they are godly at camping, (and yet somehow camping takes no skill) then you should have no problem picking pit and beating them since your the superior skilled person (assuming they have no skill)

 

[Eten]

Camping isn't broken or anything. The spam of projectiles can almost universally be countered with spotdodging alone, and to get past the defensive wall of a camper simply takes knowledge of spacing to out range them, knowledge of moves to out prioritize them, or simply able to play your opponent into making a mistake in which you can punish. Ability to camp is then simply another realm of character strength, just like priority, range, speed, power, recovery, etc. all are. The only issue is is that camping gets the initiative. Basically, when someone is camping you, there are only two outcomes- 1, You are unsuccessful and get hit, and 2, you are successful and don't get hit and you guys come out even. This doesn't actually make camping universally more powerful, it's just easier to do than it is to counter. It simply takes more game knowledge and has less room for mistakes to take a single character and counter all other campy characters than it does to take one campy character and use the same camping tools against all other characters. As players get better, camping becomes less of an issue. Just the majority of us are all at the skill level right now where camping is strong, which is what gives the impression that camping is broken.

And Diasflac, Zelda is an incredible camper.

 

[Jewdo]

Having played against a few good campers (including one in particular) and having read the previous posts, I will say the following:

Camping IS a lot more effective than it used to be. Yes, it's stupidly easy to master compared to more "complex" or "traditional" strategies. Yes, it's frustratingly hard to get through a good camper's wall (NOT going to rant about character-specific strats - you already know the ones if you're reading this). Yes, it's boring to play against because it reduces the match to repeatedly doing the same things to try to break into a camper's territory. Yes, it's infuriating to be beaten by something so robotic and procedural in a game where creative strategy feels like it should be encouraged. I hear you all. It pisses me off too.

As with all techniques, though, no matter how good a technique is, there exists a counter. The counter to camping just isn't obvious now because camping rips apart a majority of both existing techniques and those traditionally used in the past. For the first time in a long time, the strategies we've developed for eight years have failed to provide a solution, which is extremely discouraging. However, we must continue to play adaptively and investigate into the issue of camping if we ever hope to develop a counter. Once we do that, we will (1) be able to punish those that believe camping to be the only path to victory, and as a consequence, (2) force a drastic reduction in the use of camping. It's the very definition of the meta game - when the most frequently used strategy is met with a counter, players decrease the use of it to avoid obvious punishment.

The continued success of camping at the moment is a failure on the part of each player, and the anti-camping community as a whole, to come up with consistent and reliable counter so far. We need to continue to diligently seek an end the the problem in hopes that our hard work will lead to the breakthrough we've all been waiting for. If we concentrate our efforts on adaptation instead of expressing our discontent, soon, somebody will find out how to break it. We'll all groan at how obvious it is, then implement it into our game, and, years down the road, look back at this issue and laugh.

To all of you smashers, remain diligent, stay strong, and be valiant in your efforts to invade and undermine the camping menace. Soon we will be able to proclaim proudly, with broad smiles on our faces - "im in ur base, killing ur manz." And with that, gentlemen, I bid you good luck.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I don't quite understand people who admit that campy, super-defensive play is overpowered, and then affirm that effective strategies will be found... eventually... as players get better... maybe.

What about the likelihood that the game engine just promotes defensive play above all else, and that aggressive, offensive players will always be at a disadvantage.

 

[th0rn]

Yeah, there are ways to "get past camping".

But wtf are you going to do when you finally get past it after taking a good amount of damage? A one hit combo? A grab into no follow-up?

The game isn't melee 2.0 remember? You can't actually punish those **** campers like people did in melee.

The camper will just get his spacing back and continue to spam whatever projectile and rack up some more damage.

So what's your solution to projectile spam? CAMP with a reflector someone said... hmm, sounds gay and extremly boring. Plus if the spammer is smart he'll prolly expect that ****.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say you're all noobs.

Want to know a good way to protect yourself against 99% of all projectiles in the game? The shield button. Or a reflector if you're one of the several that has one.

I've just solved a ton of problems.

Might I add you can shield, move forward, and then shield again? This will move you across the stage.

Oh, powershielding is hella easy to, so there won't be much in the way of shield degeneration.



I wish people would post videos when they say "camping is broken" so I can laugh at them instead of just shaking my head.

Besides, you have too broad a definition of camping. This is like making a thread saying "KO moves are too poweful" and asking what to do against them. A fox running away and lasering is much different than a pit with arrows, and that's much different than a ROB camping the ledge which is much different than a G&W going in and out with a turtle which is much different than a Metaknight starting his dash animation to stay just out of range until he can get a grab.

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Overswarm, I believe Thorn's post accurately responds to yours.

The broad definition of camping your portrayed in a negative manor also does indeed encompass all those various specific types of camping you described. And, many of us believe that a consensus counter strategy must be conceived.

 

[DRaGZ]

How is camping or anything you or Dragz has brought up about combatting camping in any way new? Camping is a viable tactic in most multiplayer games.

It's just that in Brawl, camping is not only a viable tactic, the game engine itself makes it one of the optimal tactics. Is this good? No. Is it bad of people for exploiting camping? No. Because camping is among one of the best ways to win.

To choose not to camp yourself is all fine and dandy. To whine when people camp against you is effectively being a Scrub.

Yes, it's boring to do and boring to play against. But the game engine itself promotes it. Get used to it, because the game is designed around it! Unless we're gonna somehow ban it for being, I don't know, "boring", there's nothing we can do but try to adapt.

People who camp are not being dishnorable or sucky. People who camp badly are just bad. You will not be able to beat good campers using some kind of universal anti-camping tactics because good campers will not only know everything you know about camping and the game in general, they'll probably know more than you do.

Now excuse me while I play Toon Link (Camping Heaven).

Well...I brought up Heavy Brawl because it makes camping less effective.

Yes, I am *****ing about camping, but it's not like I don't do it myself. I do it all the time in regular Brawl when I play Toon Link or Wolf, and I don't like doing it but I feel no reason to do anything otherwise because it works.

That being said, switching to Heavy Brawl makes the camping itself a weaker strategy, so you can't rely upon it as much. It literally forces camping to stop being really good.

 

[FluxCapacitor]

I would also like to quote Nakamaru's insightful and accurate description of specific character camping issues, posted in the "Anti-Camping Strategies based on Specific Character Match-Ups" thread. He says:

"Honestly there isnt a single character i can think of that can deal with proper falco laser spam. Its too good of a projectile, and thats just half of the problem. If you do find a way to get in close he just shines you away and repeats the process. There was a video in the falco forums about properly timing his lasers so they hit kirby, yea you could crouch underneath, but what is preventing the falco from just jumping over you?

Pit's arrows are another hugely gay projectile because of how frigin fast they are. You spam a few, then when they get close they just f.B, and that move is so fast as well that you pretty much have to roll way before they even think about doing it, and even then sometimes you'll still get caught by it. Sure he isnt as bad as T.link or Falco, but it is still very hard to get around. Not to mention he also has anti spam.

T.link as well has great projectile game and any smart player isnt going to just toss **** out there left and right as fast as they can. They are going to shoot a few arrows, while you're far away, once you get closer they will throw in the boomerang which makes SH over arrows pretty stupid looking, then if you get past his boomerang he'll probably have a bomb waiting for you, and after all that frustration to finally get in close no matter if you are a space animal or frigin bowser. Then you have to deal with that ****ing sword of his.

Out of the three listed here i dont think any character has any really good approach or answer to any of it. You could go through the frustration, but with the lack of hit stun after you get 40% from projectiles to nab a grab or a lucky smash for 12-20% they can just go right back to spamming their **** at you. so thats probably another 40% tacked on and another 12-20% for them again. So already you are at 80-40 max, and its been about a minute and a half of gameplay. The only real way to get around the massive spammage is heavy brawl it seems. The reason they are so good is because half of the time the character is spent recovering from throwing something is time you spend hovering in the air from getting hit by it.

Spamming is just too good in brawl and i dont foresee any AT in the future of normal brawl to counteract it. It takes very little skill, and has an extremely high pay off. We have to find a new way to take it out or brawl will die quickly. Every tournament will have nothing but Robs, T.links, Pits, snakes (lulz), and MKs which will get really boring really quick. Other character will be seen, but with no chance of winning.

Wow thats alot longer than i expected it to be. Sorry i rambled a little to much. D:"

 

[th0rn]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say you're all noobs.

Want to know a good way to protect yourself against 99% of all projectiles in the game? The shield button. Or a reflector if you're one of the several that has one.

I've just solved a ton of problems.

Might I add you can shield, move forward, and then shield again? This will move you across the stage.

Oh, powershielding is hella easy to, so there won't be much in the way of shield degeneration.



I wish people would post videos when they say "camping is broken" so I can laugh at them instead of just shaking my head.

Besides, you have too broad a definition of camping. This is like making a thread saying "KO moves are too poweful" and asking what to do against them. A fox running away and lasering is much different than a pit with arrows, and that's much different than a ROB camping the ledge which is much different than a G&W going in and out with a turtle which is much different than a Metaknight starting his dash animation to stay just out of range until he can get a grab.

Yeah, there are ways to "get past camping".

But wtf are you going to do when you finally get past it after taking a good amount of damage? A one hit combo? A grab into no follow-up?

The game isn't melee 2.0 remember? You can't actually punish those **** campers like people did in melee.

The camper will just get his spacing back and continue to spam whatever projectile and rack up some more damage.

So what's your solution to projectile spam? CAMP with a reflector someone said... hmm, sounds gay and extremly boring. Plus if the spammer is smart he'll prolly expect that ****.

(o_o)/ (-_-)/ Take the 5-10% and continue spamming.

 

[Lightning Ice]

I've never had a problem with camping, I main the Ice climbers and their ice blocks go through every projectile in the game and shielding is always risky against the Ice climbers. G&W, Marth and nearly every character one or more attacks that can't be punished very well if at all with the shield or camping. You just have to incorporate these moves against spammers whiles being predictable and they are forced to play more aggressive.

 

[th0rn]

so what you do against people who spam projectiles is spam projectiles?

That's exactly what you have to do, making this game lame.