Camping; And a Response to Dragz

[gods_basement]

OP needs to stop using big words that dont really mean anything.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

OP needs to put the thesaurus away

 

[Taymond]

The problem with these discussion is that few here have had the opportunity to play opponents who are both exceptionally skilled and fervently dedicated to a campy, ultra-defensive playstyle; thus, we wind up with a lot of responses about how camping isn't that good because they, Joe Everygamer can beat all their friends when they try to camp. Yeah, I bet you can, but your friends suck.

Defense in this game is incredibly overpowered, and lack of hitstun + super-shields means that even when you break through a camper's defenses you can't punish him for ****. All he has to do is DI away and airdodge to escape your feeble attempts at comboing and set up camp again.

My friend plays a super-campy Rob. That guy has a really incredible camp game. He mostly ignores fun things like comboing and edgeguarding (because you can't really do those things in Brawl if your opponent is good)-- he just projectile spams until I have to start chasing him around, and punishes me easily because his defensive options are almost always superior to my approach. It's not fun.

Quoted because apparently, it needs to be said again.

@Jewdo, that just doesn't make sense. Your solution cannot just be an assumption that some magical fairy will come and bestow balance to a poorly-realized game. That's not how discussions work. You can't just shut away valid criticisms and doubts with a blanket, unlikely reassurance that things will improve. "Sakurai works in mysterious ways."

The likelihood of the situation is that the very evident flaws in the general game design that severely favor the defender in almost any confrontation will not be magically overcome. The likelihood is that a game designed to promote defense over offense will do exactly that, and defend that strategy well.

@The last few posters, grow up. What, the OP said facilitate? Maneuvers? It's the English language. He's not searching out obscure meanings to words, he's talking plain ordinary English. If you can't keep up, then get out, don't complain. You offer nothing constructive to this discussion if all you have to say is "words too big."

 

[Dark.Pch]

You just cant let the camping get to you. believe me, that what you will see in brawl. Camping. Our character get it the worst against campy players. So know this I really dont care for losing to one. Cause my character has a hard time with it.

But one way to beat a campy is to piss them off in a fight. I fight a few campers in brawl. So what I did? I let nothing touch m and just played the wierdest mindgames. Camping did not get them very far at all. And I beat them. A campers weakness is getting inside him. Since they depend on that alot, you get inside, just **** them. And if they know how to fight, you just go at it with them and beat thier azzes.

Trust me, I am Peach, I get and see this camping crap all the time. times I lose nerves to even deal with it so I get owned. But when I am on point, I know what to do to get at one, I've beating campy foxes and Falcos in melee. same with Both links.

Toy with thier heads. The great Mike G himself (for thoses that dont know, one of the best Peach players in melee, he dont play much anymore) Told me how to beat one. And it works with Peach.

Inside a camper that is a pattern. Look closely, it may even be obvious. And abuse it when you get inside. But first fight out how to get inside with out getting hit. toy with the guy. Dance around all that is comming at you. Till you can hardly get touched. Then once you cleared mission one, go for mission 2. Dance around the stuff comming at you and get inside. Once you do watch how he reacts. DONT ATTACK. Look at him while being ready to move out the way and all. Also expect him to switch up his reaction.

Once you got that down you around know what to expect. Now mission 3. You find a way to punish him. Mix up mission 1 and 2. Expect anything, him to roll, grab you, or attack you once you get close. Or he may just run away and spam again. Most common from campers. And once you got that down DONT lose your cool no matter what and just **** them up. Repeat mission 1,2, and three till you win. dont matter how long the match last. Go on till you win.

 

[Yuna]

Camping is not "countered" by shielding and blocking. What exactly did you just counter by simply avoiding some (not all) of the projectiles? The opponent was not punished for it. He can just keep doing it. The shield drops much faster now as well, so if you're constantly shielding them, it'll break/leave you open.

Spotdodging it won't really help much if he's too far away afterwards to punish or if he Fsmashes you for it. Yes, they're good tools for getting around camping and to help you combat it. But they're not counter-strategies against camping (of which there are pretty much none).

And what the hell @ most characters having a way at reflecting projectiles. What characters? And what ways? I count only a few. Also, good campers won't let you constantly reflect their projectiles. They'll also bait you into trying to project them and punish you for it (shoot a laser too high up for you to Shine and then Fsmash you).

 

[Overswarm]

Camping is not "countered" by shielding and blocking. What exactly did you just counter by simply avoiding some (not all) of the projectiles? The opponent was not punished for it. He can just keep doing it. The shield drops much faster now as well, so if you're constantly shielding them, it'll break/leave you open.

Spotdodging it won't really help much if he's too far away afterwards to punish or if he Fsmashes you for it. Yes, they're good tools for getting around camping and to help you combat it. But they're not counter-strategies against camping (of which there are pretty much none).

And what the hell @ most characters having a way at reflecting projectiles. What characters? And what ways? I count only a few. Also, good campers won't let you constantly reflect their projectiles. They'll also bait you into trying to project them and punish you for it (shoot a laser too high up for you to Shine and then Fsmash you).

When you powershield a projectile, you can easily close the gap between you and your opponent.

Pit can't spam arrows when you are a few inches away, nor can Falco spam his blaster. Powershield, approach. That's really all it takes to solve most of your problems.

Why is it that everyone else here can't do it, but I can? I'm not some super skilled technical genius, I just practiced it.

"Hey, little bro, stand here and shoot Wolf's blaster."

powershield, powershield, powershield

"Alright, now when I get close, try to attack me"

powershield, powershield, evade attack, attack

"Now try to blaster, and if I get to close run away or keep blastering"

powershield, powershield, chase, pressure

etc., etc., etc.

It takes maybe an hour.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Overswarm is amazing.

If camping is so good how come link isn't top tier? How come Marth beats him?

Ohh, that's right, because he gets owned so **** hard when you get in close, and that 15% damage every stock doesn't mean poop to a skilled player.

 

[GreenEggs&Ham]

This is why you can now dodge multiple times in the air. L/R are now your best friends. Characters such as Fox, Falco, Mario, Zelda, etc. with a type of reflector also helps against camp-whoring characters. Doing a early second jump over the character while high in the air, fast dropping, using your up+b when your under the ledge or doing an A move to recover from under the ledge after a SH, characters that have the capability of WOPing can use it against projectiles to get closer, looking for patterns and open spots, this is all common knowledge and has been mentioned before i'm sure, you just need to practice on your reaction time/anti-camping strat. and severely applying it in to your style as it will be an essentiality to the gameplay by the looks of things... once again, this all helps reduce being damaged through camping, it's not a bad thing to take some damage either if you have to [just don't take too much!], as long as you can get back on to the platform... I'm not going to lie, I only play my friends/online & only one of them is pro Yoshi & Falco in melee thus me not experiencing camping to the fullest, he's actually on these forums and came out 2nd a few times at the NJIT gaming expos they have yearly, 1st place was an awsome Fox and i'm sure he's also in these forums. Hey I think theres a Brawl & MvC2 tourny at NJIT tomorrow, anyone from here going? I'd really like to see what some pros at it. [NJIT=University/Newark, NJ]

 

[th0rn]

Air dodging, approaching with shield, or shining are all very predictable and if the campy spammer doesn't punish you for it, he probably is some noob.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I know how to get in front of campers without getting hit by their projectiles.


Use the boost to get through!

 

[Jewdo]

@Jewdo, that just doesn't make sense. Your solution cannot just be an assumption that some magical fairy will come and bestow balance to a poorly-realized game. That's not how discussions work. You can't just shut away valid criticisms and doubts with a blanket, unlikely reassurance that things will improve.

I don't believe a magical faerie will make camping go away. I don't even believe in faeries.

I admit that I didn't acknowledge the possibility of the game being poorly balanced. That was an unfortunate omission on my part, one which inaccurately reflected the realm of possibility.

I am not advocating a policy of "just wait - it'll come to us." That would get nothing done. What I was trying to get across is

(1) we all hate camping because it is the most successful strategy at this point

(2) From a statistical standpoint, a counter-strategy more than likely exists. There are very few invincible strategies in a balanced fighter, and while this may not be a balanced fighter, we can't dismiss the possibility that it is either. It may not be easy, simple, or fun, but there will probably be a way to beat camping. I suppose "counter" was a terrible word, especially considering that every character has different specific moves. I'll use "counter-strategy" instead because it implies a broader, more abstract and universal plan of attack than "counter."

(3) Effort breeds success. If there DOES exist a counter-strategy, it will not simply reveal itself. Counters are not discovered by giving up and whining. People have to look for them, and the more people we have looking for a counter-strategy, the more likely it becomes that one of them will find one. It's also a hell of a lot less inspiring to say "there may not be a counter, but look anyway" than saying "there is a counter. Go find it." Confidence inspires effort better than uncertainty. Even though uncertainty is a more scientific mindset, confidence will generate the effort (and data) necessary to definitively prove whether or not the counter-strategy exists.

Proving definitively that anything (in this case, a counter-strategy) doesn't exist is pretty **** hard. To be absolutely certain, one must attempt, exhaustively, every possible method of proving that certain something's existence, including methods that have never been attempted or even thought of, and every result must come back negative. Therefore, the only way to prove that a counter DOESN'T exist is the same way to prove that it DOES exist - you must try absolutely EVERY possible strategy, including new ones. Either way, the only way to find out for sure was to get the community to work on it, and that type of post felt like the best way to me.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Pit can't spam arrows when you are a few inches away

True, but then he can spam side B on your shield and force you to roll. Then he'll run away and continue spamming. Powershielding does work, but you can also curve Pit's arrows to hit the person's head and feet, an area that the shield does not always cover. A smart Pit knows how to get around powershielding, and it's not particularly hard either. It's certainly no more dificult than the act of powershielding that the Pit player is trying to get around.

But regardless, you do have a point, just not one that we would've hoped for. Many people realized that they could just powershield while approaching, but at the same time that does not speed up the game at all and few have the patience to use this as an approach method. It really does work and has very few holes (I mentioned one earlier in the post) but at the same time it does not entice the other player to approach.

At least it's better than nothing though. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Overswarm]

True, but then he can spam side B on your shield and force you to roll. Then he'll run away and continue spamming. Powershielding does work, but you can also curve Pit's arrows to hit the person's head and feet, an area that the shield does not always cover. A smart Pit knows how to get around powershielding, and it's not particularly hard either. It's certainly no more dificult than the act of powershielding that the Pit player is trying to get around.

But regardless, you do have a point, just not one that we would've hoped for. Many people realized that they could just powershield while approaching, but at the same time that does not speed up the game at all and few have the patience to use this as an approach method. It really does work and has very few holes (I mentioned one earlier in the post) but at the same time it does not entice the other player to approach.

At least it's better than nothing though. Thanks for bringing it up.

>_>

I'm gonna give you a scenario.

Player A uses tactic that player B hates.

Player B finds a way around it. Player B hates this counter-tactic, but it is effective and uses it anyway.

Player A loses whenever he uses his tactic that originally worked.

???????

What is the ?????, you ask?

Why, it's where Player A's new tactic goes because no one is dumb enough to use a losing strategy!

It's the same reason you saw everyone using the same strats in Melee. They worked. The "unique" and "odd" strategies generally didn't, so they weren't used often.

 

[Twin Dreams]

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)

---Sirlin

Right now, we're in the first stage. Camping is the predominant strategy. Just give it time.

 

[Gerbil]

We can't deal with camping because it's too hard to play against. The game is boring with this tactic. Blah Blah Blah

Thanks. We get the point. >.>

I can't believe I'm reading so much garbage in here >.< Has noone realized that the game could possibly be taking a turn completely different from other fighting games?

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Brawl just may end up being a game that relies on one hit attacks, then back to trying to approach for another 1 hit, then eventually moving in for a KO? Has anyone ever stopped to consider that punishing in Brawl is completely different, and that a full punish might only be that grab into a throw to deal minute damage? Has anyone considered the idea that we might be depending on one hit attacks, rather than true combos? Or that we could eventually end up relying on a complete 5-step-early read on the opponents, and chain consecutive hits? >.>

THE IDEA BEHIND THIS THREAD IS NOT TO DISCUSS WHETHER OR NOT BRAWL IS BORING, BUT RATHER TO DISCUSS CAMPING AND THE IDEAS TO GET AROUND IT. TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO OFFER OFF TOPIC ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHY THEY SUCK.

We need more outside the box thinking. People are looking at Brawl as if it is a regular fighting game. Sadly it isn't, and hell, Brawl might completely redfine a different type of a fighting game, because what the population is used to is the ability to combo, to punish, to approach, and etc. Brawl isn't that. (I am NOT bringing up the Melee 2.0 argument nor am I bringing up the "Brawl is a new game argument.") I DO understand the fact that we supposedly KNOW what to look for due to our experience with Melee, but this time it might very well be different.

And here's an idea to approach a camper.

Use a character that crawls (Crawl under Falco lasers ftw >.> ). Or hell better yet... approach *shield* approach *shield* approach *shield* get close *shield* ATTACK RAWR!!!!! approach *shield* repeat.

Noone ever made the claim that competitive Brawl would be the most fun game ever. Hell, we all know it might be "boring." But just because a game is boring, does not mean it won't be competitive. It just won't be as fun to a specific group of people. (I do realize the above approach idea blows in terms of "fun" but hey... if that's how it happens, then that's how it happens.)

I've fought quite a few campers, and I beat them. It was not the easiest thing in the world to approach, but it wasn't so "impossible" as a ton of people seem to sit here and believe. I play Olimar btw, and I am by no means a campy person. I'm as impatient as a person can get >.<

And to whoever said the thing about Melee Falco doing nothing but laser camping....

You sir, are obviously unaware of the greatness that was co_and_me (RIP man). I'd like to point to two years ago, Smash Aid VII... where co_and_me 400% this kid with Falco lasers only on FD. >.> Wut. Nao. To your statement.


@Overswarm - Everlasting Yay is a friend of mine. I'd figure using him as a means to get to you would be an awesome way to ask for friendlies sometime lol. You're probably one of the only intelligent posters in this thread I've seen. (Though I see Yuna posting too... sup Yuna lol) Plus, I hear many a thing about your ROB, and I'd like to put my Olimar to the test rofl.

 

[Dark Sonic]

>_>

I'm gonna give you a scenario.

Player A uses tactic that player B hates.

Player B finds a way around it. Player B hates this counter-tactic, but it is effective and uses it anyway.

Player A loses whenever he uses his tactic that originally worked.

???????

What is the ?????, you ask?

Why, it's where Player A's new tactic goes because no one is dumb enough to use a losing strategy!

Hey dude, I was saying that I agree with you. I acknowledged that powershielding would indeed stop camping, I just said it was boring. That doesn't make it a bad tactic. That part is just my personal opinion.

And the Pit example was just showing that powershielding will also not allways work for negating projectile spam, although it's a really good start. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to close in on Pit without him having the advantage all the time.

 

[Taymond]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Brawl just may end up being a game that relies on one hit attacks, then back to trying to approach for another 1 hit, then eventually moving in for a KO? Has anyone ever stopped to consider that punishing in Brawl is completely different, and that a full punish might only be that grab into a throw to deal minute damage? Has anyone considered the idea that we might be depending on one hit attacks, rather than true combos?

What a stupid possibility. I didn't buy a fighter to play a turn-based strategy game. I didn't buy Brawl to play Worms. Why would you embrace that situation? If that's the reality of the situation, then I fell prey to false advertisement about what this game is supposed to be.

What a stupid possibility. Why don't we just play Stamina mode, then we don't even need to worry about approaching at all! We can win without ever being in shouting distance of our opponent.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

So uhh I herd Smashboards was renamed Scrubboards

:<

Whoever is complaining, deal with it and find a counterstrategy. I'm not even that good and I get this.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Hey dude, I was saying that I agree with you. I acknowledged that powershielding would indeed stop camping, I just said it was boring. That doesn't make it a bad tactic. That part is just my personal opinion.

And the Pit example was just showing that powershielding will also not allways work for negating projectile spam, although it's a really good start. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to close in on Pit without him having the advantage all the time.

IMHO, the fun derived from the game isn't from punishing combos. It's from outwitting my opponent. So, no matter how the game is played. as long as mind-games exist, I can view this game competitively and have fun.

 

[Gerbil]

What a stupid possibility. I didn't buy a fighter to play a turn-based strategy game. I didn't buy Brawl to play Worms. Why would you embrace that situation? If that's the reality of the situation, then I fell prey to false advertisement about what this game is supposed to be.

What a stupid possibility. Why don't we just play Stamina mode, then we don't even need to worry about approaching at all! We can win without ever being in shouting distance of our opponent.

It does not matter if the possibility is dumb or not. The possibility is still there. I, nor does anyone else, care WHY you bought Brawl. The fact of the matter is, Brawl is what it is. Noone is going to change that anytime soon. You have 2 options: adapt, or leave it. It's your choice. Don't come in here trying to reject my thoughts with a blatant flame when you have no coherent thoughts, ideas or possibilities of your own to suggest in bettering a game that the community wants, as a whole, to be competitive.

We have to accept the reality of the situation on hand. If it really upsets you, or anyone else so much, then by all means change to a different game. I suggest MvC2, where you can go and get infinite comboed every round and then come back to a board and complain about ways around infinites.

 

[jakeadactyl]

i really like camping. its how i played in melee. did it frusturate my friends? yes. was it cheap? maybe. but the point of the game is to have fun, and to win, both of which i acheived by camping. its the same concept in melee except now it is more effective.

 

[DarkStraw]

OK, here's my list of characters that can in some way relflect block absorb or crawl/smush
if i missed anyone please feel free to let me know.

CAN REFLECT

Fox
Falco
Wolf
Pit
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Peach
Zelda
Rob

CAN BLOCK (disjoined hitboxes)

Link
Toon Link
G&W
Marth
Ike
Zero suit samus
Rob (gyro)
DDD
Metaknight
Olimar
Pit

CAN CRAWL (or smush)

G&W
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Snake
Zero Suit Samus (added)

CAN ABSORB

G&W
Lucas
Ness

Lets be honest, there might be a few characters that cant deal with projectile spam, but does that make the entire game broken? I dont think so.

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

Zero Suit Samus can also crawl as well. Also those aren't the only ways of dealing with projectile spam.

 

[th0rn]

I think the person spamming the projectiles is at more of an advantage than the person pinned down crawling. Therefore, I would rather spam.

 

[Wuzzy]

OK, here's my list of characters that can in some way relflect block absorb or crawl/smush
if i missed anyone please feel free to let me know.

CAN REFLECT

Fox
Falco
Wolf
Pit
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Peach
Zelda
Rob

CAN BLOCK (disjoined hitboxes)

Link
Toon Link
G&W
Marth
Ike
Zero suit samus
Rob (gyro)
DDD
Metaknight
Olimar
Pit

CAN CRAWL (or smush)

G&W
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Snake
Zero Suit Samus (added)

CAN ABSORB

G&W
Lucas
Ness

Lets be honest, there might be a few characters that cant deal with projectile spam, but does that make the entire game broken? I dont think so.

These are not counters to projectiles, rather they are protection against it. There is a difference and in this thread we are discussing how to COUNTER.

 

[.kR0]

If you could get past Falco's SHL in melee, Brawl projectiles are no problem.

Jesus, learn to play the game.

 

[Aqueus]

Jesus, learn to play the game.

This needs to be said a second time. l2p, people, l2p. My friends may suck, but they dropped the campy attitude fast.

It's largely because of two features:

1. They like character that don't rely on projectiles: Ike, Lucario (it's hard to spam the AS, or at least, it hasn't been productive in our circle), Wario, and crazy enough, Toon Link.

2. I play Lucas, I'm fast with the Stick and Psi Magnet, so camping doesn't really pan out well.

3. Super secret #3 reason I don't have to deal with a campy 1v1 where I work and play? Short Hop Air Dodge. I set my Y Button to Shield, so I press X and Y simultaneously and rise off the ground in a dodge. I never have to deal with projectiles on an approach. I don't know what else to say.

I've attended three tournaments, there were only three combatants that I noticed tried an 'ultra-defensive' method. Those guys didn't place. What am I getting at? It actually requires skill to camp effectively. Figure out how to break your opponents camping methods.

 

[Finch]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Brawl just may end up being a game that relies on one hit attacks, then back to trying to approach for another 1 hit, then eventually moving in for a KO? Has anyone ever stopped to consider that punishing in Brawl is completely different, and that a full punish might only be that grab into a throw to deal minute damage? Has anyone considered the idea that we might be depending on one hit attacks, rather than true combos? Or that we could eventually end up relying on a complete 5-step-early read on the opponents, and chain consecutive hits? >.>

Everyone realizes this. That's why we don't like Brawl. Yes, camping is the easiest and best strategy in brawl, and yes, there are ways to get around it that are much harder to pull off than actually camping, and yes, good campers can easily see what you are doing and react accordingly by doing things that are much easier to do than whatever the approacher is doing.

I don't really understand why anyone who complains about Brawl or camping in Brawl still plays the game. I play smash for fun. It's awesome being good at it and I want to get better, but I don't care about being good at a game that's really boring to play, ESPECIALLY when there's such a great alternative.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Camping seems to be much more relavent and rewarding in online play due to the defensive/camping side having the advantage due to the imput lag. So if your general view on camping derived from mostly online play, don't worry about it. Offline, you will hardly see good players that play entirely campy.

Anyways,camping is not an entire problem. It's just that it's much better in this game with a fair amount of characters. The people who don't know how to get around it... just don't know how to get around it yet. Probably playing too aggressive or something.

 

[ph00tbag]

I just have to butt in on the camping discussion. I feel like people are forgetting how bad camping was in Melee. Melee also had a very camp-heavy opening mindgame, if people will recall. Spam was a highly successful control mechanic, and there was even more ability to punish your opponent for trying to bust through. Look at the top tier. It is occupied solely by two characters who are the kings of spam, and punish people who approach like no one's business. Hell, most of the banned stages were banned because of Fox camping.

The thing that kept it from being campy the whole match was more the ability of some characters to bust through the spam, or simply avoid it altogether, namely Sheik and Marth. Even so, the minimal advantage provided by camping made SHL the way to open a match for these two characters. If their opponent approached, then both Fox and Falco had combos like you wouldn't believe with which to punish you, they could even attack directly (and I mean directly; the speed of the move was limited only by the speed of your fingers) out of their shield with JC Shines, to combat L-canceling, although I only ever saw PC Chris use this, for some reason. And every time they reset after a combo, they would go back to the lasers. I feel like this argument will fall on deaf ears, but if you don't believe me, go look at some melee matches again.

So how is Brawl any different from this? Well, there are more characters that can camp effectively and punish afterwards. In which case, I applaud, because now there's an actual mindgame about out-camping the opponent rather than just Fox vs. Falco. And even with the camping, there are characters that can manage it very well. They might not rise to the very top, but then, were Sheik and Marth top tier either? Stop whining. This is how smash works. It's worked this way since Melee, and it will work this way for a long time to come.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I just have to butt in on the camping discussion. I feel like people are forgetting how bad camping was in Melee. Melee also had a very camp-heavy opening mindgame, if people will recall. Spam was a highly successful control mechanic, and there was even more ability to punish your opponent for trying to bust through. Look at the top tier. It is occupied solely by two characters who are the kings of spam, and punish people who approach like no one's business. Hell, most of the banned stages were banned because of Fox camping.

Actually, Fox is not notorious for camping. Those stages were banned because Fox is fast. Any other character could've easily done the same thing as the only requirement is that your faster than your opponent/have a fast projectile. If there's no Fox, Shiek becomes the next big one, and so on, and so on.
Fox rarely camps in any of his matchups and I must say the campiest matchup he has is the one against Jigglypuff, who isn't that aggressive herself.
Falco also uses his lasers to approach more often than he does to camp, so I don't really see why he was brought into this. Falco could camp with his lasers, but the approach system was good enough that most, if not all characters had a means to get around this (waveshielding, powershielding, take the hit and hit him back, Marth could dash attack under the lasers, ect.) Camping was not falco's most effective strategy. If you wanted to talk about a king of spam, you should've said queen instead and mentioned Samus (which you'd still have refuted because Samus still has trouble camping certain characters. Samus has to time missle cancels to keep herself safe, but Marth just jabs the missle and that's that). Melee was not a camping oriented game, in fact it had the most balanced offensive and defensive strategies of the entire smash series.

The thing that kept it from being campy the whole match was more the ability of some characters to bust through the spam, or simply avoid it altogether, namely Sheik and Marth.

And Jigglypuff, and Peach, and Samus, and Doctor Mario, and Ice climbers, do you see where I'm going with this. You're making your statements based off of false stereotypes. Fox and Falco weren't top tier because they could camp (in fact, many people debate that Marth and Shiek should be higher than Falco. Some even say that Marth should be higher than Fox, considering he wins more tournaments).

Even so, the minimal advantage provided by camping made SHL the way to open a match for these two characters.

For Falco, yes. For Fox, man what've you been smoking. Fox was all, drillshine, wavedash, grab, upthrow,uair. Fox was for the most part a very agressive character, and only resorted to camping when the opponent started camping. Try laser camping a Captain Falcon with Fox and see what happens

If their opponent approached, then both Fox and Falco had combos like you wouldn't believe with which to punish you, they could even attack directly (and I mean directly; the speed of the move was limited only by the speed of your fingers) out of their shield with JC Shines, to combat L-canceling, although I only ever saw PC Chris use this, for some reason.

Once again, Falco did not belong in the top tier. High tier definately, but almost everyone agrees that Marth is better than Falco. And actually the time frame for a succesful JC shine out of shield was: Shieldstun+8 frame jump for falco+1 for shine, so no, the move was limited by the game, not your fingers. PC chris did it because he not only practiced it so he could do it consistantly, but he also recognized when the opponent was actually in range to get hit by it.

And every time they reset after a combo, they would go back to the lasers.

Falco, yes, he'd go back to lasers and come right at you with them. He'd use lasers as an approach method most of the time, and it was arguably the best approach method in the game. How is this a bad thing again? And Fox's lasers were not that good, and were only used to tag on a little damage when the Fox wasn't close enough to do other stuff. If you get within 3 character lengths of a Fox player, they'll most likely attack you instead of running away.

So how is Brawl any different from this? Well, there are more characters that can camp effectively

That and the fact that the shielding system, fall speed, and lack of hitstun all benifit camping and hinder approaching. The game itself promotes camping, and some characters don't even function any other way (I'm looking at you Pit. You failed range class)

and punish afterwards

Uh... not really. You get one, maybe two hits at most, and then you're back to square one. Tell me how this is punishment again? In melee, if you got close to the camper you combo'd him nearly to death. It was this punishment that made camping less effective, and promoted attacking. Brawl decided to do the opposite and promote camping while discouraging approaching. Do you not see the problem with this? The fact is that by trying to stop the camping, I'm putting myself at a disadvantage, and that my best bet is to simply camp more than you so that you are the one who has to approach instead of me.

In which case, I applaud, because now there's an actual mindgame about out-camping the opponent rather than just Fox vs. Falco.

That's not a mindgame! Just play Pit against campy characters. Mirror shield+arrows that curve is super defensive anti camper.

Melee may not have had the greatest character balance, but the game engine itself was remarkable. The game engine encouraged a multitude of styles, not just camping. You could be a super agressive Samus, or a very conservative Shiek and actually get away with it. The game engine allowed you to be extremely flexible with your character styles, and that's something every fighter should strive for. Marth had two completely different succesful metagames within the tournament scene.

Brawl's character balance gets destroyed when people start camping. Ever tried fighting a campy Toon Link as Ike or Gannondorf? Have you ever used Samus against Pit? The defensive options are just far too good in this game, and the defense is only getting better while offense is being left behind. If this game is ever going to be good competatively, we need to find things that will universally increase approaching options or hinder defensive options so that we can balance them out. Sakurai's "everyone should play this game" philosophy is great for balance at a casual level, but when people start playing to win, you see these flaws.

 

[payasofobia]

what if we use the stage builder to make stages that make camping more difficult and approaching a more viable tactic?

for example: making a stage with its platforms alienated in a way so that the approacher can dodge the camper's projectiles effectively and get closer to the campers faster, thus making camping more difficult, while still being neutral

that should end the unbalance problem

 

[distr0ia]

I set my Y Button to Shield, so I press X and Y simultaneously and rise off the ground in a dodge

am I the only person that read this?

this is brilliant

 

[Finch]

what if we use the stage builder to make stages that make camping more difficult and approaching a more viable tactic?

for example: making a stage with its platforms alienated in a way so that the approacher can dodge the camper's projectiles effectively and get closer to the campers faster, thus making camping more difficult, while still being neutral

that should end the unbalance problem

1. There are already a lot of stages like this in the game.

2. These stages are not neutral. Pit/snake/etc. fail on these stages because they're bad at direct combat against characters like Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

1. There are already a lot of stages like this in the game.

2. These stages are not neutral. Pit/snake/etc. fail on these stages because they're bad at direct combat against characters like Marth.

You know, flat stages aren't neutral either, because Ike/Gannondorf/Bowser fail on these stages becasue they're bad at approaching campers like Toon Link. There is litterally no such thing as a neutral stage, because certain character attributes work better on certain stages. Yet for the sake of keeping overall balance for the entire cast, we must find stages that give the smallest number of advantages. As such, I believe multiple platform stages are much more fair than completely flat stages, because the flat stages heavily favor those with good projectiles, while the platform stages (while not eliminating projectile camping entirely) at least give those without superior projectiles an option to approach.

 

[payasofobia]

sonic wave, thats exactly what i was going to say(type?)

anyway, since snake and pit are bad on close combat, then why not make a stage that benefits them in close quarters, while not having to relly too much on projectile spamming, the possibilities are huge

and , sure, there are lots of stages like that , but most of them will end up banned or will be counterpicks
and the ones that will remain does not give so much of a dissadvantage to spammers

 

[Revolutionary1804]

if someone is cmaping and spamming their ranged attack spam ur sidestep, one of you will eventually get annoyed and the match will go on... trust me

 

[payasofobia]

if someone is cmaping and spamming their ranged attack spam ur sidestep, one of you will eventually get annoyed and the match will go on... trust me

the problem is that you will likelly**** up and get hit a few times, while the spammer is safely
shooting you on the other side of the stage

 

[ph00tbag]

Re: Sonic Wave

First of all, how is hitting your opponent once or twice and running away not camping?

Second, I think we're using different definitions of camping. When I say camping, I mean the tool by which you pressure an opponent from out of their reach in order to reduce their options, then punish when they make a mistake. This can involve staying on the other end of the field spamming projectiles, which there is ample evidence of Melee pros doing, or using an ftilt to poke at a shield from just out range. Neither of the above is very effective if it's all you do, which is why you have other tools. I think you're talking about the use of this tool as a strategy in and of itself.

But ultimately, you're ignoring the point, which is that people will find a way through it. Not every character will have a way through Pit's arrows, but some do. This game has a much more prominent rock paper scissors aspect to it, and there will be characters that can get through projectiles, like Luigi and Marth.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

FluxCapacitator, I know how you feel, I've had to switch from my favourite character (Marth), in order to counter this! I'm now trying to main Pit.

I'm get ***** by Falco on Final, he'd stay in the corner spamming blasters at me and rack up a few percent run in hit me away, and repeat.

I chose pit due to good recovery, reflectors, and projectiles.