Character Competitive Impressions

[Amazing Ampharos]

So my early impressions from a day on the game are vague of course, but I have to say I'm incredibly impressed with Mii Gunner. With 3112 as his set, his zoning is just plain oppressive, and he seems to have a whole lot of good normals (fsmash, utilt, uair are especially nice). I played a Mac online who was quite the pain (you... don't projectile zone Mac) and I imagine Sonic would be the same way, but everyone else just has to respect the wall of garbage this character puts out. No one else seems to really be spending time with the Miis though (to be honest, I haven't explored brawler or swordfighter movesets at all); has anyone else given these guys a whirl and figured out how things can go?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I imagine exploring the Miis will be a bit trickier since they can't be used with randoms online, you have to do it with friends. Which is not to say that sharing friend codes can't be done but it does require coordinating between two people instead of just hopping into For Glory and going a few rounds.

 

[Berserker.]

Shulk is amazing but I still need to improve on my recovering

His range is ridiculous. Oh my God. Edgeguarding with him is really easy with jump or speed or just normal Shulk. Buster art or speed art is great for racking up damage. Speed art makes it WAY easier to grab with Shulk. Shield is situational. Only used when you're at a high percent. I'm having trouble dealing damage with it since I'm too slow. Buster is nice. It's my favorite art so far. The damage boost is amazing but it's best played defensively. I usually rely on grab if I actually wanted to be a bit more aggressive. Also, Shulk's grab game is great which I wasn't expecting at all from him and as said, it gets better with speed activated. His f-smash, I actually used it often for punishing or near the ledge. It's tempting to spam and I have to admit, I was sometimes stupid with it. His u-smash is surprisingly better than I thought. It's still my least used smash attack but when I use it with speed, I'm able to land it more because.... Oh and also, speed is great for punishing because Shulk's dash speed becomes incredibly fast so that's the only time I use u-smash for KO'ing. Smash art, I got nothing much to say about it. It's just for KO'ing. I haven't gotten a Smash+Vision KO yet. Jump art is awesome. You can move everywhere in stage and just use n-air, f-air or b-air like a maniac (As long as you land with n-air).

Blurgh. I'm still far from being a good Shulk but so far, my impressions on him are very positive. Most of the negatives are mostly because I suck

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Yeah, Shulk is legit. Gonna take time to get really good with him due to the constant battlefield awareness needed to use Monado Arts effectively but he's damn good when you use him correctly.

 

[Starbound]

I went in with high expectations for Rosalina and she met and exceeded every one of them. I'm really looking forward to exploring her more.

I'm also super impressed with Wii Fit Trainer. I think she's got a lot of potential.

 

[epicgordan]

I couldn't help but notice, but apparently, Luigi has some pretty high priority moves in this iteration. Mario has some decent combo potential. The legends of Bowser are completely true. Sonic is beyond amazing to play this time--he's probably even better than Bowser (though they will both be high tier).

Robin and Shulk didn't feel all that great, though admittedly, the latter could be credited to his somewhat awkward gameplay mechanics. The former, if anything, will most likely hover around one of the Mid Tiers because opposing players will be able to exploit Robin's gameplay mechanics.

I still enjoy playing as Toon Link, Meta Knight, and Pikachu as well. Nothing high tier, though they will definitely have some friendly matchups.

Fox isn't too bad either, but nothing special in the big scheme of things. Same applies to Pit, though admittedly, he does feel in part almost like a newcomer in of itself.

Captain Falcon seems to be strictly for the casual gaming crowd, and not necessarily in one-on-one matchups, and it seems to carry over to Ganondorf as well. Both Low--maybe Mid-Low--tier.

Marth, at best, is barely mid tier this time around (especially if custom moves are to become a thing in the meta game; and even then, Lucina would make better use of them than Marth ever could).

Ike is a complete joke in terms of his base moveset.

Pac-Man's going to be a big part of the competitive scenes to come, though I seriously doubt he'll be high tier. Maybe at first, though there are holes in his offense that are even more blatant than Ness' (though don't get me wrong; he's been buffed) that are, for lack of a better word, very much exploitable. Still, his Fire Hydrant will be what will primarily keep him in the competitive scenes.

Link is competitively viable for the first time in his tenure in Smash Brothers! Even in his base moveset, he controls so adequately.

Little Mac is, um...weird. I get that he has insane attack power, and even some super armor in his attacks, but he's definitely a bit on the overrated side. Yes, we get that he's useless on the ground. But something you need to know is that Little Mac cannot combo out of ANY of his specials--especially while in the air. There's far too much landing lag in his moves that if he winds up leaving the stage, he doesn't have stand a ghost of a chance coming back in, even if he still does have that second jump, because he can't act into that second jump. Really, his insane attack power (as well as his ability to counter the likes of Villager and Rosalina) are going to be the main reasons why he will remain High-Mid Tier at best. And yes, he can totally wreck Villager's day, and can cause Rosalina a bit of trouble.

So far, Villager is my favorite. Yes, he will have some poor matchups against anybody who is completely lacking in projectiles (and is very likely to be Marth's best shot at seeing the competitive scene) and is very likely to get pummeled by the likes of Little Mac and Sonic. And yes, sadly, his down special is going to be a bit useless in the competitive side of things.

I still haven't tried Rosalina, Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, or any of the unlockables yet, and while I did play as Greninja one time (while doing Training mode), I am still too much of a stranger to adequately judge him from hands-on experience. I am not even halfway done with the total veterans, either. Though I definitely do like the Mii Fighters--specifically the Brawler, though the Gunner definitely has his redeemable qualities that will likely make him viable in the competitive scenes (especially if custom moves are permitted). The Mii Swordfighters are still a bit of a work-in-progress; while I like a few things about them, I have yet to discover a truly killer combo with the Swordfighters (in fact, quite a few of their custom moves are a bit deadly, and not in the way you'd want them to be). I found several for the Brawler, and one or two for the Gunner. But none for the Swordfighter.

So, based strictly on the characters I have played extensively, here's how I'd personally rank all of these characters:



I only have three more characters and one stage left to unlock as well. R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, and Duck Hunt. Needless to say, I am in the process of figuring out the REAL unlock conditions for them. In the meantime, I will be playing Meta Knight, a bit more, followed up by Samus. I will finally get to see just what the supposedly best character in the E3 demo will truly be capable of in this iteration of Smash Brothers. Of course, I will eventually get around to trying out Greninja.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think we'll be able to accurately judge Shulk in a while for what it's worth. While he doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle, it will probably take a looooooong time until the right tactics and the best use of Monado Arts for EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP are figured out.

So my early impressions from a day on the game are vague of course, but I have to say I'm incredibly impressed with Mii Gunner. With 3112 as his set, his zoning is just plain oppressive, and he seems to have a whole lot of good normals (fsmash, utilt, uair are especially nice). I played a Mac online who was quite the pain (you... don't projectile zone Mac) and I imagine Sonic would be the same way, but everyone else just has to respect the wall of garbage this character puts out. No one else seems to really be spending time with the Miis though (to be honest, I haven't explored brawler or swordfighter movesets at all); has anyone else given these guys a whirl and figured out how things can go?

I've tried Mii Gunner and couldn't really handle him well. I guess I'll try your 3112 set and play him some more after this weekend's tournament.

 

[Lozjam]

Playing as Ganondorf in this game is a huge challenge. I was playing for glory and my win to loss ratio was about 50 -50 with him. Also, I think Little Mac is a really good counter for Ganondorf. That KO punch is really deadly when all of Ganon's moves have a ton of lag.. Though Ganondorfs custom side b will do wonders on Little Mac. I don't know, I am kind of in a love hate relationship with Ganondorf.
Link I have already spoken about many times before. He is actually good in this game. And his custom specials really benefit him.
Rosalina and Luma, I have really gravitated towards her. She is very good and so strategic, I love it.
Shulk I really like as well. I like all of the Monado arts and they have their uses.
Greninja is a fast character I can actually use and that I like. He is fast but isn't to fast. I really love the mind games with him.
Robin is also really good. I like him.

Now here's the problem. I now don't know who I want to main. Any suggestions of 3 characters I should play as?

 

[Luco]

I don't know if this has been added, but i'm going to place (copy + paste) my thoughts here. Hope it helps! =)

"So my half-competitive thoughts on this so far:

- Airdodging is nerfed overall. The ability to airdodge is fine but airdodge to landing gives a ton of landing lag which means short hopping and airdodging is just not a thing any more. Have to unlearn some old habits. XD

- Now anything can be pivoted. Not just grabs but smashes and tilts, too. I suspect there'll be some interesting things with that.

- Brawl and melee CGs aren't present here. Yet to be seen if there'll be any other chain grabs but for the most part it looks like it's all gone this time. Good for Ness!

- Camping has been nerfed to the point of badness for many characters. Snake isn't in the game, both Pits' arrows take forever to shoot and can't be shot rapidly, Olimar only has 3 pikmin at most to throw etc. I don't think camping will even be remotely considered an 'issue' (not that I ever found it an issue in brawl, actually) after a while of playing this game.

- Overall, the game is slightly faster than Brawl but many of the moves can't be cancelled in the same way as brawl so it feels heavy and almost unresponsive at parts if you try to do a Brawl playstyle. In that sense, I feel it's fresh. However many of its mechanics are a mish mesh of previous smash games. While i'm definitely enjoying it and my brother is too, he astutely remarked that the game may lose its sense of freshness after a few months. This was just his first impression and although I noticed it too i'm really hoping i'm wrong and it'll go away. I'm enjoying the game and I think it has potential but it may take a bit of time to fully explore and the kind of top level play you see in melee and Brawl where everything looks sharp, neat and tidy may take a while to manifest itself in smash 4.

These are all first impressions though. Some will probably change but I thought i'd give you as much as I could in the meantime. "

EDIT: After looking back at my final paragraph, I don't think i'm fully explaining it quite right, but the idea is that it's faster but sometimes makes you feel a lot slower, which means it'll take a while to trim up our playstyles to make it look exciting rather than us all just failing.

In terms of characters, I don't think Meta Knight will be god tier this time. His mobility feels a tad nerfed and his moves shortened so hitboxes won't be crazy powerful. He can actually be kinda killed offstage now with a bit of pressure (maybe) so while I think he's still decent I doubt he'll be ridiculous.

ZSS looks rather decent but her old combos aren't working as well. She'll probably be good but i'm not sure as to how good. Like honestly, i'd have no idea where to put her other than that she's 'good'.

Jumping to my main cause I won't spend too long on characters at this stage of my experience, i'm going ahead and saying that Ness is generally a lot better. His PKT can't just be jumped into anymore because for the first half a second or so it goes through people like Lucas' did. Thus ness isn't as easily edge-guarded as once before. Additionally, he can't be CGed so he's much, much better. I feel his Fair received some berfing in terms of its range but come to think of it, everyone's range seems to have been nerfed so i'm not sure where he really stands on that. Even with the lack of SH airdodging his shield pressure up close is great and he can be quite fast in the right circumstance. I think he's a lot better than in Brawl overall, though as to where he actually stands tier wise, I still have no idea. Hopefully not low/mid tier for once in the smash series! :D

 

[-Mars-]

Donkey Kong is very solid in this game, people are sleeping on him.

 

[The Real Gamer]

After spending 5+ hours online w/ Zard/Link I gotta say I REALLY underestimated my boy. He won't be top tier material but he definitely has the tools to compete IMO.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mii Gunner is Obnoxious, I agree with that.

But I don't think I could say gunner is stronger than Brawler. Gunners has a ton of range, but to get a lot of that power to be obnoxious gunner loses out on kill potential and safety.

Brawler might have one of the best recovery potential in the game with customs on, can handle being upclose and rack up damage far faster than Gunner can.

Swordsman seems like the worst one but I can see merit to picking it over the other two when you need that little bit of extra range to space people out. But in terms of general match-ups and potential. I just think swordsman is the worst one.

 

[epicgordan]

Mii Gunner is Obnoxious, I agree with that.

But I don't think I could say gunner is stronger than Brawler. Gunners has a ton of range, but to get a lot of that power to be obnoxious gunner loses out on kill potential and safety.

Brawler might have one of the best recovery potential in the game with customs on, can handle being upclose and rack up damage far faster than Gunner can.

Swordsman seems like the worst one but I can see merit to picking it over the other two when you need that little bit of extra range to space people out. But in terms of general match-ups and potential. I just think swordsman is the worst one.

I fully agree with you. Given how nerfed Camping has been in general, I thought Mii Gunner would be low tier. But there are definitely some custom moves that can make Mii Gunner into a killing machine. The Brawler is so full of kill options, in fact, that even his default moveset is competitively viable. I haven't seen a dedicated moveset that can make the Swordfighter viable yet, though I am currently going through some custom combinations.

And just an FYI, my custom Mii Brawlers are Big Ben, Reggie, and the Nostalgia Critic. My Mii Gunners are Peyton Manning, Iwata, and the Angry Video Game Nerd. And my Swordfighters are Tom Brady, Iwata, and Kibo (if you have no idea who he is, that's okay; I made up the character myself). And yes, this will be relevant later on when I show off each character's custom moves. Though off the top of my head, Nostalgia Critic, Peyton Manning, and Kibo respectively have the best overall custom moves out of everybody, but I will have to double-check that when I resume playing my game.

Edit: Decided to spare myself of the double post, but if anything, Lucina probably has the better advantage over Marth due to the fact that the custom moves are identical for both characters, but many of the combinations don't even utilize the tipper mechanic anyways, so I figured, why not just give them to Lucina instead? I haven't really played her yet, but it definitely helps her case out all the more.

 

[Jgod]

Monado Shield is all kinds of glorious. I see a lot of Shulk players say it is situational not to me. You are extremely heavy. I havent whipped it out early on Sheik or Greninja but against some others? You can Vector with that weight out of jabs to the ground and shield grab extremely easily. You can take hits and recover so fast that you can punish what would otherwise knock you too far in the early percents to counterattack. Then there is the late stock living to forever. Its still taking some getting use to mechanically but with shields weight you are pretty much always in position to cancel art into Jump art and then recover. With the rage mechanics its such a threat.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

INCOMING NURD SCRUB ANALYSIS

So I'm not a professional analyst in any sense of the word, but I like to think I can occasionally identify strengths and weaknesses in certain characters. So I wrote them down when I got bored.

I'll briefly list who I think are strongest to weakest. Characters in italics are ones whose positions I'm not as confident in as I am others.

The best
Shiek
Zero Suit Samus
Greninja
Duck Hunt Duo
Fox

Threats
Little Mac
Lucario
Pac-man
Bowser
Zelda
Villager
Bowser Jr.
Marth
Yoshi
Rosalina and Luma

Strong
Shulk
Jigglypuff
Robin
Dark Pit
Pit
R.O.B.
Ness
Peach
Metaknight
Dr. Mario
Mario
Wario
King Dedede
Captain Falcon
Lucina
Mii Gunner
Falco

Lacking but still powerful in the right hands
Sonic
Ganon
Megaman
Charizard
Diddy Kong
DK
Link
Toon Link
Wii Fit Trainer

Weak to just plain bad
Samus
Ike
Mr. Game & Watch
Olimar
Mii Swordsman
Palutena
Mii Brawler
Luigi
Kirby
Pikachu

Time for some explaining!

Sheik

Sheik is a terror in the For Glory scene. She will remain on top of the competition for a very long while unless some bugs are discovered which make her opponents rain hell on her. She is one of the few characters which retains a speed that is comparable to Melee's pace. Her new down-special is brilliant and provides excellent cover during recovery, and her buffed up-air with the killing blow at the end of the animation is a huge weapon against up-thrown enemies. No matter what happens in the metagame, Sheik will remain a nightmare to play against.

Zero Suit Samus
Yet another name that will strike fear into player's hearts, ZSS is Sheik's main threat to the top spot in the game. What was once a decent character has been buffed insanely with new specials and improved animations and everything adds up to a very powerful character. Her new down-B is like Sheik's - a wonderful recovery tool which attacks at the same time, and doesn't leave you helpless as you can use your new up-B to recover or in some situations combo for a swift KO. Her grab is significantly weaker but this appears to be the only significant nerf, with her faster up and down smashes wrecking the competition. Look out for her.

Greninja
Here's another character who appears to move at Melee pace. Greninja's damage output on the ground is enough to lower him a couple of spots but his edgeguarding, survivability and aerials more than make up for this. His edgeguarding is second in the game only to Duck Hunt, with his neutral B being good for both on- and off-stage opponents, and his up-B has the same push power as FLUDD without the long charge up. In the air, his neutrals are devastatingly strong, and his specials allow him to evade attacks with ease while having short lag (except his down-B, that's worse than Lucario's) so he can set himself up for more damage.

Duck Hunt Duo
The edgeguarding king. DHD is the campiest character in this game, despite an overall nerf to campers, but his close-range is still very powerful. The Can is strong enough as it is without the Clay Pigeon also causing immense trouble for characters to get near - especially slow ones like Bowser and Yoshi. In addition, both the Can and the Sheriff block attacks, allowing more time for the Duo to set up even more punishment. His main weaknesses are against quicker characters which are taking up a lot of the top-tiers so far, so he can't take top spot, but he's still strong enough to keep zoning medium- and low-speed characters away.

Fox
A pleasant surprise and a return to Fox's Melee glory... almost. Although Fox is lacking in kill moves except his smashes and back-air now, his damage dealing is about the same as it was in Melee without Shine cancelling, but that's still saying a lot. Fox's dair and bair are now strong damage dealers with his bair being his best killing move outside his smashes, and his decent animations (despite the removal of jump-cancelling lasers) make the rest of his neutral game a real frontrunner. His speed is also very beneficial, and the ENORMOUS buff to his recovery in the Fox Illusion not leaving you helpless is more than enough to make him a top-tier beast again.

Little Mac
Opinions on Little Mac are very conflicting. Some think he's one of the best characters in the game, some believe he's almost useless. I belong to the first party. Little Mac is quick, hits very hard and has the most indispensable tool in almost any character's arsenal - the KO Punch. Even without the KO Punch he'd be pretty strong but it really pushes him over the edge - one mistake from your opponent and it's the best punishing tool in the game. On top of his INSANE jab, his brilliant f-smash and great dash attack, he has a counter. Is there any reason not to love Little Mac? Get him off stage and he's dead. But a good Mac won't get off stage.

Lucario
At first glance Lucario doesn't seem too much changed from Brawl. His jab combo is a little better, Force Palm is quicker, and his down aerial can't be used to stall any more. The main buff to Lucario is completely indirect - the increased killzone sizes. Characters are going well over 100% before getting killed in Smash 4, and Lucario's weight and counter ability are both key in keeping him alive long. Then his new aura buff kicks in, and he's easily one of the most terrifying characters to fight offstage. Everything about Lucario is turned up to 10 when he gets over 100%, and his slightly improved speed makes him one of the strongest characters easily.

Pac-man
Fire Hydrant. (As a quick explanation, I won't go too much over characters I think don't need much explaining, just outline their best features.)

Bowser
Bowser-senpai is finally strong enough for me to consider him as a main! Praise the lord Sakurai!

Seriously though, his new aerials are brilliant. You won't get back on stage with this guy standing on it. His main problem is really his size and speed.

Zelda
Another character who got a favourable eye this game after poor performances in prior games. Zelda's new stalling and killing power with her hugely buffed specials and quick jab is a blessing - Din's Fire keeping enemies at bay and Teleport now having an explosive start and finish to provide both power and mobility. Her sweetspotted aerials are also back, giving accurate players even more reason to love this character.

Villager
Grab enemy, throw enemy off stage, plant tree, water tree, cut tree onto recovering enemy, jump off, slingshot until enemy is dead, recover. Rinse and repeat.

Bowser Jr.
Bowser Jr. (and all related Koopalings) is such a joy to play that even if he wasn't so strong I'd still love him. Fortunately, his zoning, dash attack and aerials are all incredible, and make him a real pain to play against. One of the major factors in his placement in this list is his recovery - not only does he have the Koopa Kart for his horizontal momentum but his up-special doesn't actually leave him in a helpless state... HE CAN STILL ATTACK. And it hurts.

Marth
Another character feeling better than ever. His sword seems to come out faster and his tipper seems to do even more damage - a real strong character overall.

Yoshi
Enormous buffs to his aerials (that dair does insane damage) and better-than-ever edgeguarding with his up-B gives a good slot to everyone's favourite green dino.

Rosalina and Luma
While I personally can't play the character, her matchups are insane and mostly because Luma blocks 50% damage... that's crazy.

Shulk
Perhaps there's a little bias here because he's now my new main, but Shulk is a very solid character whose Monado Arts are severely underrated. His low speed, heavy weight and slow animations are completely made up for with Monado Speed, Jump and Buster respectively, and Shield is one of the best defensive specials in the game when used properly. Monado Buster is easily his best skill, building up damage extremely quickly, just to set up for a Monado Smash which in combination with the brilliant range of his smashes can be devastating. I have a VERY good For Glory record as Shulk, and it's easy to see why.

Jigglypuff
Holy crap, Rest finally kills at a decent percent, and her bair brings back the Wall of Pain which ruined the SSBM metagame for a short while. Looking forward to seeing a lot of her.

Robin
Nosferatu is all that really needs to be said. Excellent specials, great jab combo and quick, powerful smashes.

Dark Pit
Although Pit (and therefore his clone Dark Pit) received a couple nerfs from Brawl, most notably to Palutena's Arrow and the ridiculous recovery, there's one new skill which makes both of them still very strong - the new side-B. On Dark Pit, the hitbox seems a little bigger, so I'll put him above Pit for now.

Pit
Same as Dark Pit.

R.O.B.
Pretty much the same as Brawl but with even better aerials and a slightly buffed standard B. Overall fun to play, not fun to play against.

Ness
Back to being a great character after a poor run in Brawl. Now, his custom specials are Lucas's, and his up-b goes through enemies for a few frames after being cast so it doesn't get instantly cancelled by enemies trying to block your recovery. It's good to have you back, even if your other specials are useless!

Peach
While nowhere near as strong as she was in Melee, she can still hold her own with her still-very-powerful aerials, and her buffed neutral-B is good too.

Metaknight
Nerfed to ****, and the world is better off for it! Worse jump height, slower animations, no more endless "hiyayaya", Shuttle Loop no longer goes into a glide and his tornado has bad damage/priority. He's still a scary character with better killing options than in Brawl from his smashes and Shuttle Loop now hurts quite a bit more but does less knockback.

Dr. Mario
While I have to regrettably place him lower than I want, this is still an excellent slot for a powerful character and I can see him occasionally making a big difference in some games. He's better than Mario for all the same reasons he is in Melee - while he can't cape stall, his down-B is more powerful, his fair is a great killing move (better than the new Meteor Smash mechanics allow Mario's to be) and his bair is one very underrated edgeguarding move. The only thing which Mario gets better is the dair, but Doc has it as his down-special in place of FLUDD, so not bad at all.

Mario
See Dr. Mario.

Wario
Nerfed quite a bit from Brawl. While I hear there's a bug for his recovery which makes him literally overpowered, his neutral game and smashes are a little weaker than before. To compensate, his specials seem a little stronger, and his hitboxes are quite large, but overall he's just not as good as he was in Brawl. Still, a very powerful character.

King Dedede
Gordos everywhere.

Captain Falcon
It's a shame Falcon's ended up getting nerfed cause he was such a fun character to watch that every game of his was a highlight of some sort. He's still not a bad character by any means, as his dair, bair and uair are all just as useful and strong (if not better) as before while his specials remain almost entirely untouched. It's really only his glorious knee which got nerfed, but it was quite a core part of his moveset, and the killbox size increase didn't help either.

Lucina
See Marth, but with a little less damage.

Mii Gunner
No For Glory with Gunner doesn't help with my analysis, but the general consensus is that Gunner is the best of the Mii Trio with good zoning and reasonably strong KO power.

Falco
Falco is getting a lot of undeserved smack for the two big nerfs he received - to his dair and laser. While it's true these are two very significant nerfs which greatly affect the way he's played, Falco still has one of the better jab combos in the game and an excellent set of smashes which lend themselves well to overall strong damage-dealing. This, and the buff to his recovery which he shares with Fox, is more than enough to justify him being a pretty decent character.

Sonic
I won't lie, Sonic is one of the characters I am worst as in Smash and so I haven't played him much. Going from what I've played, I still don't think he's a great character, but this is an uninformed opinion.

Ganon
Another character getting a lot of smack for his weaknesses when he still has a lot of strengths, especially in his custom moves. Flame Choke is still the most awesome-looking special in the game, his aerials are still strong, and that clip of the Ganon smashing the enemy off an edge-steal is awesome.

Just try not to look at his face too much during the winner's screen. It's weird.

Megaman
Great aerials, decent smashes, bad tilts, bad specials. Not much more to be said except his light weight sucks for getting blasted early. In the right hands, he's still not terrible, but I don't see him working out too well in most matchups.

Charizard
I want to love you... but hurting yourself when you use a special? That brings back bad memories, man.... bad memories.

Diddy Kong
Another character I don't play much so I don't have the best opinion of, but one-use bananas aren't working in his favour at all.

Donkey Kong
Has Donkey Kong ever been amazing? I can see this iteration working slightly better than past ones, but DK still needs a lot of work to beat a lot of the stronger characters in the game. He's getting too old!

Link
Some people have said that Link's been considerably buffed this version - I disagree on terms of his still-slow animations, bad grab and below-average tilts. His specials and recovery are just as strong if not stronger, which is a pleasant surprise but nothing to make him a lot stronger than previous games.

Toon Link
Same as Link, but lighter weight. Not enough change to make him a massive threat.

Wii Fit Trainer
Perhaps it's because every WFT I've played against online has sucked and I'm not used to the character, but she/he doesn't feel very strong and their miniscule hitboxes don't lend the character any favours. Pulling off a Deep Breathing mid-battle and charging a Sun Salutation is also difficult to find the place for with relatively weak spacing. The usefulness of these skills, though, is quite influential and I expect that as I learn the character more I'll rank them higher, but right now they don't feel strong enough to warrant higher spots.

Samus
This Samus feels even slower than Melee Samus, albeit with better smashes. I don't think that anything they do with Samus in future games will thrust her into top tiers as the concept seems weak, but at least her zoning is quite good.

Ike
I didn't even think Ike was that special in Brawl, so it didn't surprise me that he was turning up on a lot of people's worst character lists this game. He's waaay too slow, waaay too heavy and his specials are waaay too bad. He does have some use in 100-man smash, but that's about it.

Mr. Game & Watch
I liked G&W in Brawl and Melee for his uniqueness, but nothing about him seems to work in 4 aside from his customizable specials and even they don't seem to be too strong. The very few buffs he recieved (the turtle and the flag) aren't horrible but they aren't nearly enough.

Olimar
Oh god, oh god no. Just reducing the amount of Pikmin he has would be enough of a nerf to Olimar, or just making the order fixed! You don't need to throw them both in at once and remove almost all viability for this character in one big blow. C'mon, Sakurai/Namco, you're better than this.

Mii Swordsman
Slow, slow, slow. Everything about this character is just plain ugh... but at least it's not Brawler.

Palutena
What happened? Palutena is a goddess, she's technically more powerful than any other character in the game (discounting that one character who some people will know). But sadly her animations are incredibly slow, her launch power is bad and her specials are extraordinarily weak, even given their immense diversity. (I'm secretly glad Palutena isn't strong, I was against her inclusion in the first place)

Mii Brawler
Wannabe Little Mac, minus everything that makes Little Mac good.

Luigi
Twang. No recovery for yooou

Kirby
This nerf seems really unfair, cause Hungrybox played an excellent Kirby at the Smash Invitational, but there is nothing which makes Kirby that amazing in 1v1, especially with matchups almost as terrible-looking as Melee's. And when they thought the Hammer was being buffed by gaining a charge ability, they were very wrong.

Pikachu
Maybe it's because I hate playing Pikachu. Maybe it's because every Pikachu I've played against (and that's very few) has been bad. Maybe it's because Pikachu's main tools of destruction have been nerfed completely. Maybe it's because almost every character has a decent way to ignore almost every one of Pikachu's low-priority moves. Maybe it's because Pikachu SUCKS.

Thus concludes my preliminary analysis. Later into the game's life I'll do follow-ups on the tier lists and how they've turned out according to expectations like this, and what we were seeing right/wrong and what that means for the future. Thanks for reading though, and please do offer your opinions on my list, I'd love to see what you think. Just don't be too harsh... my poor little heart can't take it!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard seems quite good.

You just can't throw attacks out willy nilly.

You have to properly space and time them.

 

[san.]

I can only analyze one character and all I can say is Ike is not bad.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I can only analyze one character and all I can say is Ike is not bad.

Silly san., Ike es no bueno.

(Seriously, though, I can't use him to save my life.)

Smooth Criminal

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit is pretty great, actually. Every A move he has is equal or better, sans Bair, while his specials have all been redone. Every move of his feels like it has a significant use and he actually has some decent kill power now. Pit will definitely be upper-mid at worst, but I'm not seeing top tier. But then again, his versatility means he has good matchups all-around, unlike some of the currently most used characters.

 

[suarsuar]

So happy about Sheik tbh

Seeing Denit's Sheik in tournament play gives high hopes and lovely heights to aspire to.

I think everyone needs to relax about her dominating the meta - she will be played well if the right people pick her up but she isn't the answere to everyone so just wait!!

she sexy tho

 

[Yonder]

I
Luigi
Twang. No recovery for yooou

Might want to put him in italics. He can recovery perfectly fine in this game, you just need momentum when you use down B. It's harder, but to say "no recovery" is a bit ignorant sorry. Also if considering custom moves, his recovery becomes exactly like Brawl's but better. Consider his other buffs too.

I still can't understand why people put MASSIVE gaps between Mario and Luigi. They're both middle of mid tier, with Mario right above Luigi.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Charizard is not a good character at all, without Custom Specials at least. You can go into details on how some of his moves are pretty damn good individually, how he has great KO Power and how his survivability is pretty good as well. But in the end it doesn't really flow together very well ending up in a solid character.
He can't really pressure his opponent in many situations, he has no good zoning tools, it's very easy to camp him, he can't approach, he has no OoS tools other than a really good grab ... I don't see how this character is supposed to be able to compete.

 

[Yonder]

I am going to state a general view though and say no character feels absolutely unusable though in this game, to the level of Ganondorf in Brawl. Like Gheb, I'd also say Charizard, aside from Flare Blitz, feels the weakest.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Might want to put him in italics. He can recovery perfectly fine in this game, you just need momentum when you use down B. It's harder, but to say "no recovery" is a bit ignorant sorry. Also if considering custom moves, his recovery becomes exactly like Brawl's but better. Consider his other buffs too.

I still can't understand why people put MASSIVE gaps between Mario and Luigi. They're both middle of mid tier, with Mario right above Luigi.

I don't mean he has no recovery, I mean his Green Missile which was a good source of recovery while also applying a little cover is now big-time nerfed with the head-stuck-in-wall mechanic which has really affected his recovery.

 

[Yonder]

I don't mean he has no recovery, I mean his Green Missile which was a good source of recovery while also applying a little cover is now big-time nerfed with the head-stuck-in-wall mechanic which has really affected his recovery.

Head stuck mechanic was also in Brawl. It has hardly affected his recovery here. His recovery is weaker, but that doesn't just write him off as an auto bottom tier. His aerial game has improved, and his dair spike hits just slightly less than Falco's now. Fireball and dash attack are both usable now too. Those traded off for weaker recovery, along with everything else being the same, makes him a mid tier.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Head stuck mechanic was also in Brawl. It has hardly affected his recovery here. His recovery is weaker, but that doesn't just write him off as an auto bottom tier. His aerial game has improved, and his dair spike hits just slightly less than Falco's now. Fireball and dash attack are both usable now too. Those traded off for weaker recovery, along with everything else being the same, makes him a mid tier.

I'm still not sure about your logic. Luigi had pretty strong recovery in Brawl and a weaker neutral game, and now he has a stronger neutral game and weaker recovery. Against a lineup of characters like this, where getting you off the stage is often a priority, I think a better recovery is much preferable to a weaker neutral game - just look at Villager.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Now that I have the game I'm going to do a take 2 in this thread:

- Samus is solid, she's easy to play and has a lot of good tools. Her fast F-Tilt, F-Smash and Screw Attack are great moves for making your opponent **** off, and her U-Air and U-Smash are simply wonderful. I feel like her biggest weakness is getting down to the ground again since her D-Air was nerfed, that and her new N-Air doesn't have the same lingering hitbox and is overall not that great. A solid character, definitely not bottom tier like some people label her.

- Better than I expected him to be, but still not a great character. D-Tilt is surprisingly fast, so is N-Air, but I find myself never being able to hit with 90% of his moves, he's too slow to even properly punish people. If it wasn't for the fact that I loved Ike I'd just go Bowser instead, he's better at just about everything

- She's very flexible, it's so easy to adapt to your opponent's playstyle with her, I played a ton of For Glory with her today and there's a way to properly counter almost every character. Rest out of shield is absolutely ridiculous by the way.

- Probably my best character at the moment, at least him or Samus. U-Air is godlike, D-Throw -> Knee is amazing, even D-Air despite its high landing lag is a really good move. He's just tons of fun and a really great character.

- Meta Knight really isn't too good honestly, with rubbish range, no kill-power, very few combo options and a lot of lag he lacks the properties to be a serious contender this time around. He's okay-ish, but nothing more at the moment, hopefully I'll be able to develop him a bit.

- Holy ****, he's a lot worse than I thought he'd be. Falco's multi-hit moves connect worse than ever, his hitboxes stay out for way too short, and he's generally very predictable and very sluggish. Not fun to play at all.

- This guy on the other hand surprised me positively. People have been saying Fox is weak in this installment, but I disagree a ton, he can be used to very great effect, it feels like he has endless combo possibilities on top of his reliable kill moves.

- Pretty underrated, while he's quite slow Link packs more than enough power, bombs, boomerangs and arrows to make up for it. He is by no means a fantastic character, but he's definitely not bad.

- These two characters surprised me identically. They got a lot more combo potential than I expected, it's pretty damn crazy. They're just very reliable picks imo.

- This guy is still horrendously underrated. I'm not sure if people just aren't playing the right Ganondorfs, but my brother has yet to lose a For Glory match with this guy, he's absolutely insane. F-Tilt is the stuff of gods, B-Air is beyond that, one mistake on your side quickly leads to 70%, which is his comfortable kill percentage. Of course he does still have some of his usual drawbacks so it's not like he's top tier, but he's good, no doubt about it.

- Still think he's very overrated. His projectiles are very easy to avoid as they're all slow and bar one very predictable, every time he tries to camp he takes a Jiggs B-Air or a knee to the face. His aerials are nifty, and so are his smash attacks, but he really isn't a top tier candidate at all imo.

- Solid, but that's about it. His D-Air is a surprisingly good spike, and his aerials are generally very reliable. Flare Blitz is neat, but people need to stop spamming it. His recovery is his biggest flaw imo, it's very easy to gimp due to his sluggish jumps. He's decent, nothing more but nothing less either.

- Patience kills this guy. Seriously, if you can wait just a bit for him to make that crucial mistake it more often than not ends up with his death. He's an interesting case honestly, I'm excited to see how people develop this character.

- This cheeky guy, holy ****ing ****. Dedede is a monster by all accounts, he holds with him possibly the best projectile in the game, and on top of that many fast, powerful and reliable attacks, most notably his F-Air and D-Throw. Dedede is going to be a very serious contender, I have no doubts about it at all, he's almost got it all.

- Very clunky. It feels like Marth became an old man, he's no longer as flexible or versatile as he used to be, mostly due to the tons of lag they gave him. I do not see him as a very good character honestly, you dedicate yourself too much to each move. He's not the worst though, so I guess he has that going for him.

- A lot of potential, but heavy drawbacks too. Remember Mewtwo? Being tall and light weight is so terrible, and it absolutely haunts Rosalina as it stop her from being an unstoppable force. The Luma can be absolutely amazing though, so even if she's got some iffy attacks and attributes her little friend will carry her a long way.

The best character in the game thus far is imo, everybody probably already knows why once they have played against her.

The worst character is a toss-up between and imo, I feel like they each have much bigger drawbacks than the rest of the cast and just can't keep up with them in the long run, they take a ton more effort to even get okay results with.

 

[Yonder]

I'm still not sure about your logic. Luigi had pretty strong recovery in Brawl and a weaker neutral game, and now he has a stronger neutral game and weaker recovery. Against a lineup of characters like this, where getting you off the stage is often a priority, I think a better recovery is much preferable to a weaker neutral game - just look at Villager.

His recovery isn't even unusable in this game though, just different. I can gain 2/3rds of the height from Brawl cyclone when I recovery, just have to jump forward fast and there's your height. A tiny recovery nerf doesn't make him drop down 2-3 tiers when everything else has stayed the same or been buffed or nerfed only slightly.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

His recovery isn't even unusable in this game though, just different. I can gain 2/3rds of the height from Brawl cyclone when I recovery, just have to jump forward fast and there's your height. A tiny recovery nerf doesn't make him drop down 2-3 tiers when everything else has stayed the same or been buffed or nerfed only slightly.

It's more the fact that people have been buffed to counter recoveries. Bowser can now safely nair/bair off stage and stop you from getting back on, Shulk's nair range is retardedly huge and has good knockback with Smash, Pac-man's side-B is beautiful edgeguarding material and we won't even go into Greninja and DHD. It's harder to recover, so good recoveries are more welcome.

 

[Yonder]

It's more the fact that people have been buffed to counter recoveries. Bowser can now safely nair/bair off stage and stop you from getting back on, Shulk's nair range is retardedly huge and has good knockback with Smash, Pac-man's side-B is beautiful edgeguarding material and we won't even go into Greninja and DHD. It's harder to recover, so good recoveries are more welcome.

Again though, a weakened recovery does not drop a character down 3 tiers when they haven't changed much elsewhere. Ganondorf dropped 3 tiers in Brawl because everything got worse about him. For Luigi, nothing else really did. He is still deadly in the air and ground, and can kill earlier that most middle weights still. He's still a middle tier.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Again though, a weakened recovery does not drop a character down 3 tiers when they haven't changed much elsewhere. Ganondorf dropped 3 tiers in Brawl because everything got worse about him. For Luigi, nothing else really did. He is still deadly in the air and ground, and can kill earlier that most middle weights still. He's still a middle tier.

I see your point, but in this game I just think Luigi wasn't changed enough to this current version - a lot of the other characters got changed in many ways, and I'd argue most of them have better killing power AND recovery than Luigi. Sure, Luigi's fair is a nasty thing to go up against, but even a Megaman can airdodge at the right time and follow up with an even nastier bair. tl;dr Luigi's just worse overall, cause the other characters got better changes than him.

 

[rm88]

I'll post some impressions too. Overall the game feels pretty balanced, I hope it's just not the new game effect.



Luigi got nerfed IMO. And why exactly would they do that? I feel once the dust settles he'll fall to rarely used. His forward smash is a shadow of its Brawl self, it's not a stupid-strong move anymore and I really feel like Luigi needed the super strong gimmick in order to not be a mediocre Mario. Then his recovery also took a hit, and it really shouldn't have since it's a very predictable recovery that lacks priority in the first place. Now that I got the negativity out of the way - I'm loving Luigi! I've played as him the most since getting the game, he's still combo-happy and hard reads are rewarded with early KOs. It's a shame only Mario got a projectile range buff and not Luigi, though.


I love what they did to her. Feels way more solid and capable of actually scoring a KO than her pitiful Brawl self, but I don't understand why they changed Pound so that you completely freeze in the air after you do it. It was an incredible move in Brawl and it's now somewhat less safe, but still one of her best moves.



He's one of the characters I played the most since the release of Brawl, there's something I don't quite love about him now. Less range on his cutter projectile and weird knockback for his throws. It's a matter of getting used to him, I guess.


Overall he clearly got nerfed, but for entirely new reasons I think he's a very solid and fun character. His projectile is great, but also can't be spammed since it can be reflected very easily. I love his new down tilt, almost makes up for the removal of his godly Brawl back air. He has a spike now! And I feel his neutral air is better now. One of my favorite characters so far.


I was planning on maining him as soon as he was revealed, and I'll definitely play him a lot, but he doesn't feel very... useful. There are things I really don't like about him at close range, and while his smashes are powerful they're definitely tricky to land. Still a fun character, and I'm kind of glad he won't become overly popular to be honest

The buff! This is clearly Bowser's best SSB incarnation yet (not really hard to achieve, I guess). I miss his more "wild" look in Brawl and particularly Melee, but now that he's fully "humanoid" he can dropkick you to your death at very early %. I find myself missing his old up and back air (because of range and knockback respectively) but they're still great. It's likely that he'll keep being one of my most used characters, I can say I'm happy with Bowser. Plus his blue color is awesome.

I can't think of anything better to say about Dr. Mario other than, he feels safe and effective. And quite strong.

What the heck happened to his down and back air? There are some changes I really don't get. Also, his back throw is not as strong as before. Why? :/

So. Much. Fun. I find him a bit hard to use, mostly because I'm somewhat grab happy and his grab is so slow. At the moment I feel like his projectile is a novelty, and while he has a really interesting up-B that I'm guessing will end up being very abusable. But he has very solid normals, his smashes are quite strong. Also he doesn't die too quickly. Again, just really fun to use.

Upgrade from Brawl, I think. Crown slap is again a reliable kill move (I'm not sure if it's just me, but it not only feel stronger, the range seems quite great now) and she's still a tricky, versatile character. Peach Bomber can be used sometimes now! I miss glide toss but I'll live with it. Back air got a big nerf, but I guess I can't complain when forward air is so great now.

I also like Lucina, Robin and Mario, but I can't think of anything to say about them.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can only analyze one character and all I can say is Ike is not bad.

To add my thoughts to this: Ike still has tools, but he has to be played pretty differently from Brawl. Jab ain't for dealing damage anymore really, strictly a "get off me" move. Dtilt went from meh to being a pretty good poking tool with its increased speed and different launch angle. Fair is now much more of an anti-air and not really for approaching at all. Due to the change in his launching power, we have to use pretty much all of his moves now instead of just focusing on Jab/Fair/Nair/Bair/Grab/Dash Attack. Usmash is even better now, particularly with the air dodge recovery frames increasing.

With his throws, Dthrow leads into a lot of stuff, and then when it starts being too strong Uthrow kicks in for combos. Bthrow -> Dash Attack may work for a few characters still at certain ranges. Don't think anybody has toyed with Fthrow yet beyond chucking people off stage to set up gimps.

What's really important for Ike are his custom moves. If you aren't playing with those, you haven't really seen what he can do. Quickdraw by default now no longer leaves him helpless if he swings in midair, but it can be changed to either have super armour basically the whole time including the charge, or to never swing and just blast through people. I think most people know about the Diagonal Aether and its insane range. Counter 2's stun property we're still playing around with but it has potential to lead into some of our more powerful moves. Eruption 's air burst option has pretty good potential for gimping certain recoveries without touching them and giving them another go.

He still has tools, they're just very different from Brawl and playing him like Brawl!Ike will mean that he doesn't fair well. Gotta play him differently now. Kinda like how Meta Knight apparently has to play different because his sword whiffs in a hilarious fashion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlQLM0XkXW0

 

[suarsuar]

It feels that even with all of the posts and having the 3ds version for a month before the wii u version, we won't know anything substantial about the game save for the layout of the main menu.

://

 

[Luco]

Yeah I hate the nerf on ness' Dair and Bthrow. The Bair one i'm not as upset about, it's still reasonably strong and good for edge-guarding (is that even a thing now that ledges are last come, best served? o.O )

Luigi I think is very similar to Brawl in that once he gets in he can be terrifying but keeping him out is his woe. I actually think Luigi will be higher in this game mainly because of camping nerfs as well as the fact that most characters don't have stupidly ranging moves anymore. It might just be a relative thing but I find characters like Marth and whatnot don't keep me out like they did in Brawl. I dunno. But basically I think Luigi will have a slightly easier time. Whether that affects him significantly given the positions of the rest of the cast... time will tell.

 

[Yonder]

Anyone else feel that Dr Mario is super, super sluggish compared to Mario? I bet its just me...

 

[Luco]

Hmm, Dr Mario feels very similar to mario in that it's really easy to feel sluggish while using him. I just tested him out then and his Bair, Utilt, Uair etc are all very fast and could combo rather well. I'd try using more of your aerials (aside from Fair ), maybe that helps? =)

 

[Mamp]

I feel like Toon Link is super underrated at the moment, his projectiles are amazing and he has lots of good spacing tools, both on the ground and in the air. He is one of the best in the game at racking up damage imo. He has some trouble killing, and his recovery is a bit poor, but I feel like he could definitely be a high tier character.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

A few initial impressions from me.


Pros:
+Fair carrying people feels so nice in this game.
+Dthrow pops them up quite nicely for said Fair carrying if they vector wrong. It isn't guaranteed, but a good option all the same.
+PK thunder goes through at the start!
+Bthrow is still a solid kill option.

Cons:
-Bair is still decent, but even when sweet-spotted I feel it lacks punch.
-Dair's new animation is making it hard for me to figure when exactly it spikes. It's weird.
-PK Flash is still a crummy move and none of its customs look that great either.
-PSI Magnet's healing is delayed. It doesn't really affect much, but...why?

Overall: So far so good. Without grab release problems holding him down I'm hoping Ness will shine a bit brighter this generation.


Pros:
+Monado Arts are fantastic. Change from playing as Jigglypuff to Sonic in the blink of an eye! They really add a lot to his game and let him adapt to many situations.
+Aerials have great range
+All smashes being multihit can help against spot dodgers.
+Counter stays out for a month and a half, which can trip opponents up when they think you're done. It also hits like a train, even without smash
+Solid grab options all around
+Shield is handy for living.

Cons:
-Up and down air feel super clunky. Down air actually stops doing damage after the beam ejects, making it tough to escape juggles sometimes. Nair helps a little with that.
-Seeing as his aerials have much better range, I don't really see a lot of reasons to choose speed over jump. Could be my inexperience speaking here.
-Grab range feels oddly short. May not actually be short, but it feels short.
-Counter stays out for a month and a half, so it's extra easy to grab once people get used to it.

Overall: Seems solid. We'll see if his adaptability is as useful as it seems.

Lesser impressions:
Still seems okay. Pikmin Throw feels kinda eh, but his smash and throw ranges are still good. I liked his old Uair better though, though not having the most bizarre jabs/ftilt in the game is nice.
Really don't like the Utilt and Dtilt changes. G&W already has an obnoxious windbox attack, why did Manhole need one? And it's knockback is super weird now. And Utilt is so friggin' small now. Gonna need to relearn him a bit to see if I can make him work.
His hitboxes are a lot more pinpoint and it screws me up so bad. Not much else to say about him but it bothers me that much.

 

[Luco]

Actually, i'm rather worried about Villager. His actual range seems like the least of many of the new characters and I find I can just get in on him and beat him up and there's not that much he can do about it. Anyone else getting the impression he's a bit easy to go against? Surely i'm missing something?