Character Competitive Impressions

[Zwzchow]

Hmm anyone can give an impression of Lucario haven't seem him being used often
Not really impressed by his customs tho

His vanilla seem good tho ^^

 

[Funtroon]

So, is it face to assume that this iteration of the series is the most balanced one so far?

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Seems like it. There is a general spread, DHD and Sheik being consistently high performing. But the match ups themselves don't seem to be too skewed towards one character.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

LOL

it's obviously not safe to assume anything. The game just came out. It could be the most balanced edition of the series or it could be the least balanced.

 

[epicgordan]

I noticed from trying out the game something very interesting. Apparently, the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner based characters all operate under Pokémon Starter mechanics in that they are strong against one class, but weak against the other.

This stemmed when I tried Mega Man in the demo initially, who has such brutal matchup issues with the likes of Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Villager. Eventually, I tried out the game itself, and noticed that characters like Mario, Link, and Mega Man have some very interesting matchups. Let me put it this way:

Brawlers like to be in your face, and tend to home in on enemies from a distance. Gunners are at a distinct disadvantage, though Swordfighters generally have disjointed hitboxes that can keep Brawlers at bay.

Swordfighters are more or less a tactician based class of fighter. They can keep other characters from getting too close, but struggle against characters who love to camp (Gunners).

Gunners fight from a distance and are primarily campers. They can limit the options of a Swordfighter, though Brawlers can punch right through their bullets.

What's interesting is that according to a leaked list of English translated custom moves (and what each custom move does), the three Mii Classes were the very first characters created (yes, even before the Original 12 minus Jigglypuff), and were likely created first as a means of balancing out the three basic fighter functions of Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner.

But wait! Link is a swordfighter, so why does Mega Man have such a poor matchup there? Well, the simple answer is that, typically speaking, not all Brawlers, Swordfighters, and Gunners operate exactly the same from one another, and since Link and Toon Link are both essentially utility belts, they are able to adequately combat Mega Man players. However, certain characters that can be classified as "Gunners" (Duck Hunt, Bowser Jr.) appear to give just about everybody trouble--especially characters like Little Mac and Sonic (though Sonic can handle Duck Hunt a lot better).

In other words, Mega Man can easily prove broken against Marth and Ike players unless custom moves is to become a thing, which if anything, adds to another layer on how useful a character can be. For this reason, how high or low a character may rank on the tier list may not be determined just strictly by their matchups, but in how useful their custom moves can be. Combo potential and easy kills also serve as a huge indicator in where certain characters can rank in the tier list.

Just to use him as a sole example, Shulk was, shortly after having seen the movie and listening to his game's soundtrack, my most anticipated newcomer for this game. I tried him out, and even used his custom moves. His custom moves are rather dreadful, and just about any Gunner-type characters can beat him up easily (though very few Brawlers can get close to him). Custom moves are not very helpful at all, save for some tactical use for his custom neutrals, and Shulk has very low combo potential. He also lacks any sort of cheap exploits either (like Dedede's Gordo Toss).

Truth be told, I'm not horribly impressed with Shulk or Mega Man, though I am very doubtful either of them will be low tier when the game comes out. Mega Man in particular is better than most Gunner classes as well as the most generic Swordfighters. Whereas Shulk seems to be a hard counter for Sonic and Little Mac--that is, when used properly. How each character may rank in relation to one another is dependent on this triangular matchup charts, how effectively each particular character plays in relation to where they're ranked in the matchup charts, and how they compare to other fighters within the same Class in general. I have no doubt in my mind that Link is going to be the best Swordfighter in Smash 4 based on the great amount of utility he has going for him. However, if I were to make a guess on who I think the worst swordfighter in the game is going to be, sadly, Shulk appears to be it.

But I could still be wrong, so who knows? Needless to say, figuring out the Tier List for this installment is not impossible, but it will be very difficult. The game balances itself rather well, and so far, nobody that I could detect is completely worthless as a fighter. But if it's any consolation, I may have found a basis to go by. Just a reminder, here's to keep in mind:

1. Brawler > Gunner > Swordfighter > Brawler (again)
2. How effective each character is in relation to their respective class
3. The Combo and K.O. potential of each character
4. The full extent of each of their custom moves

Brawler: Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Kirby, King Dedede, Little Mac, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, Sonic

Brawler/Swordfighter: Greninja

Swordfighter: Marth, Ike, Meta Knight, Lucina, Shulk

Swordfighter/Gunner: Link, Pit, Toon Link, Robin, Dark Pit

Gunner: Bowser Jr., Zelda, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Palutena, Pikachu, Duck Hunt, Ness, Mega Man

Gunner/Brawler: Mario, Luigi, Rosalina, Mr. Game & Watch, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Lucario, R.O.B., Villager, Dr. Mario

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, is it face to assume that this iteration of the series is the most balanced one so far?

64 is the most balanced by far because everyone dies in like 3 hits.

This iteration probably has the least amount of bull**** in terms of general mechanics though.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Well, there's a difference between mechanical balance and character balance. It's hard to have a big disparity in a character roster when everyone has a 0-to-death combo at their disposal, but it sounds like Smash4 does a good job with its character balance considering how many game dynamics need to be taken into consideration.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Nobody seems broken yet. We're not having a first-week brawl situation where Marth was top tier.

Let's hope we don't have an MK level character, waiting to strike.

 

[Yonder]

Of course, any character's viability can be increased or decreased, depending on patches and all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We also don't know too much about how custom moves will affect a character's viability. Earlier I mentioned Samus as a character who'll likely not be viable but after seeing her custom moves I'm becoming a bit doubtful.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I think custom moves will be allowed, especially for characters that could seem a bit lacking in their standard specials. It'd open up more interesting possibilities in competitive play because players won't know what specials their opponent has until the game begins, and so counterpicking becomes hard/more strategic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mario is overrated and i firmly believe he will get left behind in the metagame.

Combos are meaningless unless you can land a hit.

His footsies are not good enough nor is his mobility.

 

[RWB]

Mario is overrated and i firmly believe he will get left behind in the metagame.

Combos are meaningless unless you can land a hit.

His footsies are not good enough nor is his mobility.

Is you opinion the same on the Doctor, or does his increased power help?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Doc is probably in a similar position.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario is overrated and i firmly believe he will get left behind in the metagame.

Combos are meaningless unless you can land a hit.

His footsies are not good enough nor is his mobility.

Even beyond that, his combo game is nowhere near reliable enough to justify the risk of him approaching. People can jump out of or interrupt his U-tilt chains. Like, wtf Nintendo...

Only thing Mario has is okay edgeguarding and Cape for reflecting projectiles in some matchups, but idk what they were thinking when they decided to leave Mario's moveset as is while actually reducing his damage per hit. U-air only does 7% in this game, and it neither kills nor combos more reliably than it did in Brawl.

Oh wait, they also took away Jab canceling from Mario (and other chars) and gave it to Yoshi. Yeah, seriously.

Customs are a decent buff to Mario due to Gust Cape and Fire Jump Punch giving Mario more spacing/combo/edgeguard options at least.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

64 is the most balanced by far because everyone dies in like 3 hits.

This iteration probably has the least amount of bull**** in terms of general mechanics though.

Marvel vs Capcom is a game where most characters can kill you in one combo. That doesnt mean its balanced. Ability to land a hit can still separate characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marvel vs Capcom is a game where most characters can kill you in one combo. That doesnt mean its balanced. Ability to land a hit can still separate characters.

Right, that's true. In 64 though, not only do you die quick in that game, mobility and hitboxes are really homogenized for most of the cast. Pikachu and Kirby don't beat the rest of the cast in neutral to nearly the extent Melee Falco or Brawl Metaknight does in contrast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously like why would i play mario? MK is far better and does pretty much all that mario does and thats after mks nerfs AND marios buffs.

wtf?

Oh wait. MK doesnt have a crappy fireball.

+1 for mario /sarcasm

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seriously like why would i play mario? MK is far better and does pretty much all that mario does and thats after mks nerfs AND marios buffs.

wtf?

Oh wait. MK doesnt have a crappy fireball.

+1 for mario /sarcasm

Mario "buffs".

The real thing people are missing is that Mario is pretty much the same damn character minus D-throw, which doesn't even help him as much as it should due to damage nerfs and because Nintendo was stupid and didn't take 5 frames off of U-tilt's ending lag. Oh, D-tilt actually is usable in this game, but that doesn't really solve Mario's problems.

They even nerfed U-air and Cape noticeably. And no Jab canceling is really bad news for Mario...on top of his Jab combo doing LESS damage in this game.

 

[RWB]

Seriously like why would i play mario? MK is far better and does pretty much all that mario does and thats after mks nerfs AND marios buffs.

wtf?

Oh wait. MK doesnt have a crappy fireball.

+1 for mario /sarcasm

I know you said Doc most likely will be in the same situation, but do you think he will be better or worse?

 

[Berserker.]

Just my opinion but if I were to be honest, Mario feels like Brawl Mario with some combos. It's probably just me but his recovery is still not good enough and his range is still too short. I'm also having trouble landing KO's with him. It also doesn't help that the blast zones are much bigger in this game so.....

Oh and, I'm 100% on this. I never used his fire ball or FLUDD

 

[Emblem Lord]

It truly depends. I feel whoever is better at neutral will be more successful. If neutral is equal then its down to who has bigger reward and if doc hits harder then hes over mario by default.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It truly depends. I feel whoever is better at neutral will be more successful. If neutral is equal then its down to who has bigger reward and if doc hits harder then hes over mario by default.

Doc B-air does 14-15% iirc. That makes him the better character by a small amount. He only loses very marginally on edgeguarding.

Like...I don't get the unnecessary Mario nerfs. His gameplan was interesting but not rewarding enough in Brawl, and they not only removed some of his cool options, they even managed to give him less reward. If he kept his Jab cancel and damages from Brawl, he'd be workable, but idk man. On two good reads, Brawl Mario could get you from 0-70 with aerial strings. Now it's like in this game, you have to read people three times to barely approach 60%. And you have fewer options to confirm KOs when no Jab canceling prevents you from getting grabs or D-smash as easily.

Also the day finally Mario F-air feels good to land, ****ing ground bounce mechanics making grounded meteors techable on stage is just so troll.

So annoyed at all the community pillars and COMPETITIVE PLAYERS that give misleading information about characters. Getting my hopes up about a character they know nothing about. Oh well, hopefully Nintendo does do balance patches.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I think your opinions of Mario are quite unfair! I'm not saying this just cause I'm a Doc main, but he has most definitely has recieved buffs from Brawl. His recovery is now considerably larger, reaching higher than before (you can fastfall fair and still get back to land) and although his specials are in general quite weak there's no doubt that a lot of longer animations (especially on emerging threats like Bowser and potentially Shulk if people learn how to utilise him) make his Cape a big threat. His dair is absurdly strong and has very reasonable landing lag, also comboing well with his throws, and actually has some killing power (much, much better than Brawl).

As for Doc I can't confirm anything but I've heard his dair contains a killing blow now, adding to his extremely powerful fair as useful killing techniques.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What buffs again?

Mario's Up-B is the same as it's been in the previous game. Mario still has one of those recoveries where if you hit him out of his midair jump, he's not likely to make it back. Yes, anti-edgehog mechanics help him, but you can't Cape Stall nearly as well anymore to mix up the timing of when you want to Up-B or to dodge edgeguards, so overall his recovery got more predictable and more easily punished offstage.

And what can Mario do when edgeguarding? He has to read you **** hard to hit Cape in most matchups. F-air is really telegraphed similarly. N-air is good for edgeguards, but not all recoveries will be gimped by it, fewer will be outright KOed by it. FLUDD is still difficult as hell to pull off. B-air and U-air are decent but again, are unlikely to outright KO, making Mario's edge steal game weaker than average.

Mario's D-air was amazing in Brawl. Dunno why you think it's any better in this game when it has the SAME FRAMES AS IT DID BEFORE. It doesn't KO early, and it only sets up combos in very specific situations still. Yes, you can safely attack someone's shield with it and have a mixup still, and it has shield poke potential. It's the same **** move as before.

Aside from some system changes which are somewhat preferable to Mario's gameplan, he's either mostly remained the same, or received more nerfs as opposed to buffs.

I mean, in a game where land trapping is a big deal, sure. Mario wants that to make his juggle game more reliable, but he can't kill off a read nearly as easily as other characters, and his combos got nerfed in this game.

Brawl Mario under these system changes would be a pretty solid character. This isn't Brawl Mario though, Mario got considerably more nerfs than buffs in the transition.

And Doc is also mediocre. He just has it slightly easier because his B-air does more damage.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think A2somethingsomething (@ A2ZOMG ) has some good points. Mario feels great (IMO), but he isn't actually great. The tweaks to Smash 4's pacing have helped quite a few characters out in that department. I haven't enjoyed the character this much since Melee.

At least he's better off in this game so far than he was in Barlw overall. The competitive environment for that character appeared gross, and not in a good way.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think A2somethingsomething (@ A2ZOMG ) has some good points. Mario feels great (IMO), but he isn't actually great. The tweaks to Smash 4's pacing have helped quite a few characters out in that department.

At least he's better off in this game so far than he was in Barlw overall. The competitive environment for that character appeared gross, and not in a good way.

Smooth Criminal

Metaknight getting nerfed more than Mario is a big deal. Marth F-air being slightly more punishable also helps, and so does the meta shifting slightly more to zoning characters who Mario has some tricks against by having a reflector.

Minus Diddy and his stupid neutral B hitstun cancel, the top tier is overall much tamer in this game than in previous games. Nobody (except characters like Ganon and Bowser) kills quite as fast in this game, and there's fewer cases of someone getting things as dumb as Snake hitboxes. That doesn't change that Mario was pretty unnecessarily nerfed.

Now for a change of topic, I believe Ganondorf is the worst character in this game theoretically, but is viable. Prove me wrong.

Reasons why he probably can win games competitively:
*Jab startup seems to be a bit faster, which makes all the difference in stopping rushdown
*F-air has less landing lag
*Ganondorf probably is THE scariest character in the game to get edge stolen by.
*Generally good edgeguarding with massive and quick aerials.
*Anti-edgehogging benefits Ganon's recovery HUGELY, meaning he survives to 150%+ much more easily.
*Ganon still has his strong D-tilt and DA to force everyone to have some respect for him in midrange.

Reasons why he's still the worst character:
*Very very limited at punishing spotdodge, especially with poor grab range not helping his pressure game
*Only is safe on block at very very specific spacings assuming he is not powershielded
*Low mobility
*Recovery is STILL predictable
*Easily juggled, though aerial Down-B NEEDS to be respected at all times.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, per se. I don't know much about Brawl Mario outside of a couple of things (I played DDD, I pretty much had that match-up covered except against actual top-level Marios like Monk/Honky/Banana). Sucks to hear he got clipped by the nerf bat, but c'est la vie.

Also, I agree that Ganon is gonna be bottom again but viable this time around. It looks like he can actually do something haha.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Funkermonster]

May I ask how u guys think is shaping up right now in comparison to his PM incarnation? I would count Brawl, but there's the stamina mechanic with Pokemon Trainer since he wasn't a standalone fighter up until now.

 

[Novice_Brave]

As of now, I honestly do not see a single character who is straight up completely and totally unviable, and hopefully it stays that way for the next 5+ years of Smash 4

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ganon is indeed buuuuuuuuuuuuuuunz, but surprisingly effective. I agree he's the worst and if we all concur that means good things for this game.

Harada and the Tekken crew did a good job balancing. I refuse to believe Sakurai or Nintendo could do this good of a job with balancing. This is like TTT2 level balance we are seeing so far.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Assuming custom specials are legal I don't think Ganon will be the worst character. His custom specials definitely add some spice to his approach options, he kinda has a decent OoS punishment move now with custom upB and his recovery doesn't appear to be completely worthless this time around. While he won't be able to compete with top tier characters I can see him doing well enough against a solid number of the roster. He can actually make use of his redeeming traits that make up for his flaws now in various matchups. If I had to pick a worst character right now I'd have to go with Luigi.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Harada and the Tekken crew did a good job balancing. I refuse to believe Sakurai or Nintendo could do this good of a job with balancing. This is like TTT2 level balance we are seeing so far.

Namco Bandai, mother ****ers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Assuming custom specials are legal I don't think Ganon will be the worst character. His custom specials definitely add some spice to his approach options, he kinda has a decent OoS punishment move now with custom upB and his recovery doesn't appear to be completely worthless this time around. While he won't be able to compete with top tier characters I can see him doing well enough against a solid number of the roster. He can actually make use of his redeeming traits that make up for his flaws now in various matchups. If I had to pick a worst character right now I'd have to go with Luigi.

Luigi's slow fireball custom is probably pretty good. Actually, both his fireball customs are highly practical.

As for default stuff, he has a solid recovery and Jab combo, and he's a much smaller target than Ganon especially while crouching. Cyclone is sorta like wizkick but has more versatile spacing and better range. All three of his Smashes have above average knockback, and he still has a 3 frame killer N-air that also serves as an easy juggle starter and it also makes him hard to capitalize on at low percents. Furthermore unlike Ganondorf, Luigi has a really easy time covering spotdodges.

He's definitely not good in neutral, but he's less vulnerable than Ganondorf overall, and he IS able to kill respectably early on a read. He NEEDS to powershield to land his better KO moves reliably, but given how much reward he gets from it, his raw KO potential is something that can't be discounted completely.

 

[ProfShirogane]

What do u guys think zero suit samus's weaknesses are? I'm trying to main her (i use her in PM)

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd have to agree with the Mario analysis but I don't think he should be UNDERRATED either. In this game I imagine he'll be mid, mid-low, and Doc won't be far from that either. I guess that was the idea with Mario though...

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do u guys think zero suit samus's weaknesses are? I'm trying to main her (i use her in PM)

She has a tether grab, which has a relatively slow startup which makes her offensive mixup slightly predictable. You also shouldn't be approaching with her aerials given they generally hit relatively high in the air. Other than that her gameplan is extremely solid and she doesn't really have any situations where she lacks an option, and she's pretty good at getting back to neutral due to her mobility. And once she puts her opponent in the negative state, she has several good conversion and followup options for securing big damage and the KO.

 

[Tristan_win]

I know this is a change of subject for what this thread is meant to discuss but I don't feel it deserves it's own thread.

Anyways I've watch what I believe to be a good amount of smash 4 now and I just realize something... almost no one is recovery high. Yes recoveries are better on the entire case but still people are recovery for the most part at a reasonable height. Has anyone else notice this, has the seemly increase falling speed on the entire cast made recovery overall weaker or have people just not gotten use to the game yet?

 

[Noa.]

I would agree that people seem to be recovering lower. It is probably because smash 4 seems less floaty than brawl. Or people may not be VIing correctly.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Little Mac will be a good character and in good hands he can be a top character, want to see my argument? you just need to see the shockwave 2 tournament:

Bwett (Little Mac) vs Em (Villager/Bowser)
- Winners Bracket

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBk3uCphosA&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=2

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs AeroLink (Palutena) -
Winners Semis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N74JlkuLoVs&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=8

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs Lunchables (Toon
Link) - Winners Bracket

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDPcXIH70Kk&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=11

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs TLOC Denti (Sheik) -
Winners Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Lhi_0LcTY&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=16

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs Pwing (Villager) -
Losers Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb0d6P6UrGk&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=17

WON. That final battle.... it's so satisfying to see Litlle Mac winning in a battle with all against him, a projectile camper that can also camp him from below and with a god recovery so he doesn't have to worry about follow little mac off stage and all this in a platform moving stage, a "suicide" for almost every Little Mac, and yet, he won. And if it wasn't because that counter killed him, he would of win with advantage.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs TLOC Denti (Sheik) -
Grand Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkNsb8qmZak&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&inde

Yeah, he loosed against Sheik (Sheik plays to melee in this smash) but he got to the Grand Finals of a tournament filled with compettitive players, a strong second place. I can't see a character that's able to do all this getting any lower than high tier.

Also if you want to see how Little mac handles characters with good aerials here you go:

Lil Mac vs Bowser Jr
http://youtu.be/GLpi1pmBO2s

Lil Mac vs Jigglypuff
http://youtu.be/_t9lQLbXzIY

And this one just because it was the same player.

Lil Mac vs Ganondorf
http://youtu.be/dSEdPb2qgFI



A little stressed out of people saying his competitive garbage...

So Little Mac is Good, just wanted to point that out.