Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Waiting in the reg line, let's try this again:

Who here is at EVO?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Me, Raziek, Zankoku, Dietz, and Minato just got our passes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Balgorxz]

3 stocks is great and all until someone picks sonic or villager

 

[Nabbitnator]

3 stocks is great and all until someone picks sonic or villager

I think its worse during 2 stocks because if they get the lead the opposing player is at a heavy disadvantage.

 

[Nobie]

When it comes to Palutena, while making her tilts stronger would be an obvious solution to buffing her, I do think the character needs some kind of weakness to balance her out, both competitively and in terms of design.

People talk about how Captain Falcon and Sonic ignore neutral, but Palutena LITERALLY ignores neutral. It's not like, "if you pick the wrong move at the wrong time, then Falcon will dash grab you," but rather the fact that Palutena's dash attack will beat, trade with, or ignore any sort of non-grab. Like I just imagine a Palutena with a buffed f-tilt fighting tether characters and just demolishing them. She's not Falcon/Sonic fast, but she's top 10 in terms of run speed, and that means if you stick ANYTHING out at the wrong time, Palutena wins. This also means she's a bit predictable because so many of her moves are bad/situational, but she also has plenty of moves that cover multiple issues. She's full of gimmicks and perhaps that's why she gets overshadowed once people learn her tricks, but that she would have both a rock-solid foundation AND those particular quirks like a neutral-defying dash attack make the idea of buffing Palutena pretty scary. Like certain other characters, she's on a knife's edge, and this comes across just from how drastically her character improves with customs.

 

[Gawain]

I think its worse during 2 stocks because if they get the lead the opposing player is at a heavy disadvantage.

3 stock objectively takes longer. It's definitely a whole lot worse as far as TOs and spectators are concerned.

I never bought into the whole "less chance for a comeback argument" anyways. Stocks last long enough in this game for the most part. If you weren't coming back from a one stock deficit you aren't likely to come back from a two stock deficit. Besides, that's why there are multiple rounds in a set, you make your comeback in THOSE.

 

[thehard]

EC vs. WC crew battle is starting. You don't wanna miss this! http://www.twitch.tv/goukitv

 

[LancerStaff]

Maybe it's just hadouken. Or people using Street Fighter terminology to describe his down options (light dtilt, heavy dtilt and dsmash as crouching light kick, crouching medium kick and crouching heavy kick respectively.)



He has unique physics which can make aerials ridiculously unsafe if misused, for one thing. You also have keep track of a larger
number of moves and the things you can do with them than most characters. Ryu as a whole prefers to stay on the ground
since he has more options there as well as more flexibility with spacing. If your friend plays with Little Mac a lot then that's a good start since he teaches you how to approach without using aerials.

Of course, Ryu trades ground speed for longer pokes via hadouken as well as usable aerials. But his bad air friction limits
them so try to limit their use to when you're absolutely sure they'll land.

@ A_Kae I'm pretty sure the hadouken versions all do the same damage, the only difference is speed and distance.

Unique aerial mechanics? First I've heard of this.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Good luck to everyone participating at EVO tomorrow!

 

[Pazx]

I don't know why we're talking about 2 vs 3 stock in this thread, but since someone brought up the comebacks thing it's time for some anecdotal evidence.

Here's what I was up to last night: http://challonge.com/dvcr5z32

I 2-0'd Ace twice (he forfeit when he was down 2-0 in losers) and lost 0-2 to Wave. In all 6 of these matches, the person who took the first stock lost. We were playing 3 stock 8 minutes. Comebacks are very real in the 3 stock format. That said, "comebacks!" isn't a reason to support 3 stock over 2 stock. The benefit to 3 stock is that there is less variance and more chance of the better player coming out on top, as shown in my (admittedly small) sample size of 6 matches. That isn't something that's debatable, 3 stock is superior to 2 stock for determining who the winner of a tournament is for the same reason that we play bo3 and bo5 rather than bo1.

Marginally less off topic: I want to see Ito in this crew battle. MK is so good in this game.

 

[Djent]

EC vs. WC crew battle is starting. You don't wanna miss this! http://www.twitch.tv/goukitv

I might have to. It's 1 AM EST and it hasn't started yet.

 

[thehard]

I might have to. It's 1 AM EST and it hasn't started yet.

I should have known.

 

[Vipermoon]

Looks like Evo will be the talk during the rest of this week plus some parts of next week. Well I know one thing. Marth is absent.

 

[Antonykun]

all this talk of evo and customs and only so few villagers are actually making an appearance
welp Villager is still unhealthy

 

[thehard]

OK, it's actually starting now.

 

[Gawain]

Looks like Evo will be the talk during the rest of this week plus some parts of next week. Well I know one thing. Marth is absent.

Have some faith bro. When I was at Evo last year, I was watching quarters for Marvel 3 and I saw some random dude doing some crazy stuff with Spiderman, I was so happy to see that, you never see great Spiderman gameplay. Lots of guys go there just to play hype sets with their main. Maybe there will be some no-name clutch Marth. He would almost certainly not make it to top 8 but maybe there will be some sweet sets.

 

[A_Kae]

Looks like Evo will be the talk during the rest of this week plus some parts of next week. Well I know one thing. Marth is absent.

There's got to be someone who plays Marth there, right?

Even just one person?

 

[Vipermoon]

There's got to be someone who plays Marth there, right?

Even just one person?

Of course there will be Smash 4 Marths at Evo. But you know what I mean.

 

[Antonykun]

it would be nice seeing some underrepped characters make it to stream but idk if that were to happen
I know we'll be seeing quite a few sheik dittos on stream though

 

[Unknownkid]

WEST COAST WEST COAST!!!

*Lose to Nakat twices...*

We're screwed.

 

[A_Kae]

Of course there will be Smash 4 Marths at Evo. But you know what I mean.

I still have some faint hope that Marth (and maybe other not often seen characters) will have someone there who does well with them. Customs are on, so maybe someone will go Marth and do stuff with that.

Still, though, I do know what you mean. Unfortunately.

Melee on the other hand...

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah Melee (edit there is no Brawl oops) will have Marth killing all who stand before him. Smash 4, will Ally no longer going (IIRC), not that he'd use his Marth anyway, that doesn't really leave much. Is Mr. E going? Even if he is, he won't get on stream and with Marth likely won't get out of pools.

 

[FullMoon]

Not expecting to see much of Greninja at EVO considering aMSa is going full Pikachu.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's so sad. Looking at aMSa in Melee you would think those unique, niche characters are the only ones he'd go for.

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah Melee (edit there is no Brawl oops) will have Marth killing all who stand before him. Smash 4, will Ally no longer going (IIRC), not that he'd use his Marth anyway, that doesn't really leave much. Is Mr. E going? Even if he is, he won't get on stream and with Marth likely won't get out of pools.

There's a 'mr.e' in this bracket. I think it's the right one. Wasn't able to find Ally, so I guess he's not going.

Mr. E is good, isn't he? I haven't seen much of his matches, but from what I've heard he's fairly good at Marth, so that's something. But is he good enough is the question here I suppose.

There just aren't many Marth mains around, and even fewer who are good enough to turn up in the later stages of EVO.

Edit: Ally is in this bracket. Stlll, he probably won't use Marth like you said.

 

[FullMoon]

It's so sad. Looking at aMSa in Melee you would think those unique, niche characters are the only ones he'd go for.

To be fair to him he still mains Greninja, just not in customs.

Who knows, he might switch to Greninja if he starts struggling with Pikachu.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Edit 2: I'm almost certain that the Hadouken's all go the same distance regardless of light, medium, or heavy. I think it's just speed and damage. I might be wrong though.

Edit 3: I do remember hearing that Shakunetsu Hadouken has a distance change, not sure if that's true.

They all have distance changes. The hitbox stays out the same amount of frames, but the speed changes (more speed over the same amount of time = greater distance)

Shakunetsu also gets this, it's the only Hadouken that only gets speed and distance from light/medium/heavy.

Regarding his tilts, I think it's better to describe them as light/medium since his smash attacks are his "heavy" attacks (if you compare to SF anyway).

 

[Ikes]

I've thought of a weird nerf for rosalina and I want thoughts

-increased luma hurtbox (25% or so)
-increase duration of Luma's hit stun
-decreased luma attack hitboxes
-decreased luma damage (knockback is the same but % dealt is lower)
-marginal decrease of Luma's HP
-marginal decrease of Rosalina's weight (dies at slightly earlier %)
-marginal decrease of rosalina's jump and double jump height
-uair has less vertical distance and the hitbox ends sooner
-dair has less vertical distance and the hitbox ends sooner
-Rosalina needs Luma to recover (a la ice climbers)


eh??

 

[Vipermoon]

There's a 'mr.e' in this bracket. I think it's the right one. Wasn't able to find Ally, so I guess he's not going.

Mr. E is good, isn't he? I haven't seen much of his matches, but from what I've heard he's fairly good at Marth, so that's something. But is he good enough is the question here I suppose.

There just aren't many Marth mains around, and even fewer who are good enough to turn up in the later stages of EVO.

Edit: Ally is in this bracket. Stlll, he probably won't use Marth like you said.

He's supposed to be the best Marth main out there but we rarely see Mr. E gameplay these days. Regardless, throughout Smash 4 it is Mr. E that has been paving the way for this character and he was the Marth I turned to when I was forming my play style.

Ally uses his skill to do Marth things, not his Marth knowledge and experience because he lacks that. In his defense he used him at the end of Brawl. Maybe he is still going, I thought I heard he changed his mind. But yeah Ally hangs out in the Michigan scene during summers and he told me at this point only in very specific MUs will he use Marth and he also told me he hasn't been in the lab with Marth since the patch (which would have been a pretty important thing to do) so I doubt he'll make an appearance.

But hey no Marth = more buffs

 

[DanGR]

I've thought of a weird nerf for rosalina and I want thoughts

-increased luma hurtbox (25% or so)
-increase duration of Luma's hit stun
-decreased luma attack hitboxes
-decreased luma damage (knockback is the dame but % dealt is lower)
-marginal decrease of Luma's HP
-marginal decrease of Rosalina's weight (dies at slightly earlier %)
-marginal decrease of rosalina's jump and double jump height
-uair has less vertical distance and the hitbox ends sooner
-dair has less vertical distance and the hitbox ends sooner
-Rosalina needs Luma to recover (a la ice climbers)


eh??

Congrats, Rosalina is garbage now. :D

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I've thought of a weird nerf for rosalina and I want thoughts

-increased luma hurtbox (25% or so)
-increase duration of Luma's hit stun
-decreased luma attack hitboxes
-decreased luma damage (knockback is the dame but % dealt is lower)
-marginal decrease of Luma's HP
-marginal decrease of Rosalina's weight (dies at slightly earlier %)
-marginal decrease of rosalina's jump and double jump height
-uair has less vertical distance and the hitbox ends sooner
-dair has less vertical distance and the hitbox ends sooner
-Rosalina needs Luma to recover (a la ice climbers)


eh??

From top-tier to bottom tier just like that....

 

[thehard]

Who cares about hypothetical balance changes when Vinnie just took ZeRo to a last stock last hit situation IN THE SHEIK DITTO?

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm just wondering who Nairo is going to use. Dark Pit's customs are decidedly average, but ZSS's are garbage. (Right?) I've seen him use Guiding Bow and Impact Orbitars quite effectively before, too.

Looking back, being the sole person to reply to Dark Pit's topic and the only one to seriously contribute to Pit's, I wish I would've trashed the sets with the default arrows for more Piercing Bow sets. I honestly can't think of a single situation where the defaults are, well, useful whatsoever.

 

[Gawain]

Congrats, Rosalina is garbage now. :D

Garbage is a bit of an exaggeration. She still would have all her good frame data. Only Rosalina mains will say not to nerf her though. I think a uair and dair nerf is needed. Active frames are too much. Base knockback is too much.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Still, 1.2x knockback shouldn't murder you like that.

I don't actually know the knockback formula but you shouldn't forget that at maximum rage there's also the 1.5x multiplier included as well. And 1.5 x 1.2 = 1.8 so there's a chance of a knockback increase of +80% just through these two factors alone. If the BKB of a move is super high you'll definitely see kills at fraudulent percentages.

 

[A_Kae]

I don't actually know the knockback formula but you shouldn't forget that at maximum rage there's also the 1.5x multiplier included as well. And 1.5 x 1.2 = 1.8 so there's a chance of a knockback increase of +80% just through these two factors alone. If the BKB of a move is super high you'll definitely see kills at fraudulent percentages.

Knockback = ((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(s/100))+b)

t = Target Damage
d = Attack Damage
w = Target Weight
s = Knockback Growth
b = Base Knockback

1.2x the result of that formula for when you get hit while charging a smash.

Hitstun frames is also just knockback *0.4

 

[Smog Frog]

what i want to know is WHY is all the KB with luma and all the damage with ? imo i would average out the KB and damage between them, so is more crippled when she loses luma(eg: usmash would do 16% when luma and hit, but solo only does 8%)

 

[Ffamran]

I don't actually know the knockback formula but you shouldn't forget that at maximum rage there's also the 1.5x multiplier included as well. And 1.5 x 1.2 = 1.8 so there's a chance of a knockback increase of +80% just through these two factors alone. If the BKB of a move is super high you'll definitely see kills at fraudulent percentages.

Maybe they should switch the BKB and KBG for some of Luma's moves... So, 130 BKB, high rage, and a split second charged Smash all leads to dying at 12%... >_>

I wouldn't mind of their moves had incredible KBG which hey, that's how Falco even survives in this game, but really high BKB on a fairly quick if limited move is confusing to say the least. Well, whatever...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Rosalini changes would be better removing the high BKB on U/Dair and making her a tad heavier.

 

[Ikes]

Congrats, Rosalina is garbage now. :D

I'm not so sure

Diddy had his biggest tools axed to hell and he's still easily high tier, not top but he's still great