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Charizard Tactical Discussion

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
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Iowa City, IA
(My) Move Usage Spectrum:

Strictly KO's

Fsmash
Dsmash
Usmash
Dthrow/Uthrow
----------
Dair
Fair
Bair
Ftilt
Dtilt
Utilt
Rock Smash
Fly*
Nair
Uair
Fthrow
Bthrow
Jabs

General Use


The ones above the dotted line really are strictly KOs for me.

The farther down the list, the more likely I am to use it for general damage build-up. Nair iss kind of an exception; I tend to only use that when my opponent is on a platform higher than Charizard.

*I listed Fly, even though I don't actively use it as a kill move. Sometimes I get a kill when I'm recovering, 'ya know? :embarrass
 

zeta

Smash Journeyman
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i use up throw for damage and upsmash for damage also.

I am a firm believer that every move should be used and has in it the moment of epicness that it deserves.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
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Will someone verify this for me? Charizard's Ftilt seems to have more range when its angled down, but less kill power. (?)
 

Steeler

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i'm fairly certain that that's how it works retro. i'm almost certain on the range part, and the angle down part seems likely, considering that's what happens to most other moves when angled down.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
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I've been hitting people who think its cool to sit on the ledge with it recently. The angle seems to be pretty shallow, but maybe unsuspecting DI is accountable for this.
 

Steeler

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actually, YES, i've done the exact same thing, hit someone with down ftilt on the ledge. sweetspotted and killed.

the guy started crying.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
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Oh, well, I kinda knew this was in Melee (from a strategy guide), but I wasn't sure if this continued in Brawl. It did. (Feels Ashamed for not knowing common knowledge).


Much Later:

OK, I decided to do some tests and Dthrow isn't as powerful as we wish. Against Mario on the Center of FD, Dthrow takes 156 damage to KO him (no DI). Uthrow takes 158. I also decided to do some testing with the tilts, Ftilt takes around 135 damage, and Dtilt takes about 110 damage, on the level of some smash attacks. Yep, Dtilt is DEFINITELY a KO move.
 

PkTrainerCris

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Not every character can angle the tilts, but i dont see it too usefull... until now, ftilt has very good range, and even more range means ****, and char92, i told you the Uthrow killed almost the same as Dthrow, the thing is that Dthrow has "stratup" (the coolest of all) and they can be prepared to DI, not the same with Uthrow, uthrow becomes deadly on low ceilings ( corneria, yoshi island melee.... ) , but dtrhow is **** near the edge, so its situational overall
 

typh

BRoomer
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wtf why would you use upsmash for strictly KOing

low % rock smash to up smash is ****ing incredible, and its a great move to use below platforms

also: stop downthrowing. its a garbage KO move and every other throw does more damage and puts your opponent in a more desirable place.
 

infernovia

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
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Dthrow is extremely DIable and will only get you surprise kills. Everybody can DI straight up and they won't be killed.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
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wtf why would you use upsmash for strictly KOing

low % rock smash to up smash is ****ing incredible, and its a great move to use below platforms

also: stop downthrowing. its a garbage KO move and every other throw does more damage and puts your opponent in a more desirable place.
That was just what I used them for, not how often I use them for that purpose.

I don't use either of those two moves often, actually. Usmash I just seem to forget and I've been trying to incorporate that way more. I do use it under platforms, but I'm not very good at timing to get the second hit. :(
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
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Charizard, I don't think it's something that really needs checking :laugh:

It's just DI at work.
Oh, well, I edited my guide to Charizard and dropped Dthrow from 5 (I recommend this beyond normal) to 3 (it's your choice, but I don't recommend or ill recommend this)

MUCH LATER:

I found a comboish thingy! OK, at high percentages (or even moderate ones), Uthrow your opponent up. After the Uthrow, follow upwards and use fly (preferably connect with the beginning of fly). If done correctly, you should KO the opponent over the top.
 

Itburns

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Been messiing with some zard stuff and here is what Ive found:

jabcancel upsmash (credited to onyx).. it works on big character but you have to be fast with the jab cancel.
It become a great mixup to the grab release. since you can
a) regrab
b) jab combo
c) jab, regrab
d) jabcancel upsmash.

Also ivy been using up+b awhole lot more, ive found its a good follow up to a rocksmash with splatterdamage and also when you can see the opponent is comin at you from above.

with its SA its a really good way of getting away from underneath the tail in corneria and it will automatically grab the edge for followups.

zard also has a jablock but to do it you need to jabcancel every jab and walk a little so it stays in range. alot easier alternativ is to do 2 jabs which ill tap reset the opponent and follow up with another grab, upsmash or fsmash.
 

zeta

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Been messiing with some zard stuff and here is what Ive found:

jabcancel upsmash (credited to onyx).. it works on big character but you have to be fast with the jab cancel.
It become a great mixup to the grab release. since you can
a) regrab
b) jab combo
c) jab, regrab
d) jabcancel upsmash.

Also ivy been using up+b awhole lot more, ive found its a good follow up to a rocksmash with splatterdamage and also when you can see the opponent is comin at you from above.

with its SA its a really good way of getting away from underneath the tail in corneria and it will automatically grab the edge for followups.

zard also has a jablock but to do it you need to jabcancel every jab and walk a little so it stays in range. alot easier alternativ is to do 2 jabs which ill tap reset the opponent and follow up with another grab, upsmash or fsmash.
vids or it didn't happen :laugh::laugh::laugh: jk but i'd like to see vids if you could
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
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Squirtle, sadly, is the only character out of the three who can ACTUALLY kill with a throw. Ivy's back throw, and Charizard's down throw, both suck for killing. Ivy's back throw is great because it's damage is great for Ivysaur. Charizard's down throw is good for switching, if you need to that is.
 

PkTrainerCris

Smash Ace
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Charizards Uthrow kills pretty good too, and the Dthrow may be good for setting up an edgeguarding, but anyway i would rather go with ftrhow on that case
I still use Dthrow, mainly because its the coolest throw ever, that and to switch :p
 

M.K

Level 55
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I recently picked up Pokemon Trainer....
Charizard is probably my 2nd best after Squirtle, but I have some questions:

1) Is Down Smash applicable in any combos or set-ups?

2) What are some reliable, beginner combos with Charizard?
 

Itburns

Smash Journeyman
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dsmash unfortunetly has few uses except as a roll punisher. but it does cover a good amount of range on both sides.

reliable combos..hmm the thing is charizard doesnt have reliable combos to really practice.. he pretty much plays like a power house character.

things to remember are
- he has really great grab range so practice grab release mix ups
ie grab, pummel, regrab or grab pummel, jab combo etc.
- rocksmash is your BFF great priority and has splatter damage
- Use flamethrower to space
- upsmash is a good kill movethat comes out fast, its usually a good follow up from flamethrower and rocksmash
- fair is good offstage to punish recoveries
- up+b out of shield is a good counter since it has SA

actual combos are a little difficult because its a little situational.
if the opponent gets hit by a straight rocksmash then i follow up with an upsmash at low percentages
if the opponent gets hit by the splatter however i go for a grab or ftilt(depending how close they are).
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
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On the Dsmash: Not really. Dsmash is pretty much unreliable to the point where I tell everyone not to use it (the only attack Charizard has that I tell people not to use. Smashes I ill recommend. Everything else ranges from meh to USE IT [bair and three out of four throws (dthrow is the only one not to get a five)])

On the combo thingy: Brawl's lack of hitstun practically eliminating combos aside, Charizard has few (if any) combos to speak of. It burns does have some good points, but I just want to put things out:
DO NOT SPAM ANY SPECIALS!: Fly has absolutely no problem with this, but the other two, do. Flamethrower does have an anti-spam mechanic in it (diminishing flames), but Rock Smash, oh yeah, that's the one that should be spammed the LEAST. IT is horribly slow (Charizard's slowest attack), and it is easily punishable before you actually do the hit. Also, Charizard does very well with the grab game, the part of him I recommend the most (except Dthrow, that is now somewhat pointless, as it sucks as a KO move). the first three (F, B, and Uthrow) of them can be used to link things together, but you have to be somewhat advanced at it. Also, Uthrow is an effective KO move, so that is easily recommended). I'll get up my guide thingy here, now:

Initial Impressions:
Charizard, has a rather obvious role, which you can easily determine by his appearance, TO KICK THE **** OUT OF THE OPPONENT! What isn't as obvious is how versatile he is at doing so. Being big, he's likely to be classified as slow moving easy target lumbering tank. This isn't (entirely at least) true. Charizard is surprisingly swift and agile for a character who's weight class is typically defined as practical rocks lumbering towards you (ex Bowser). With three jumps (barring the up B), and a glide, he has an above average recovery. He is also fast when running (walking, he is the slowest Character, running, he's the seventh fastest, tied with Pikachu [if you ever played the Pokemon games, this shouldn't be surprising]). Be careful, he has rather laggy moves, and his large size makes him a bigger target.

Pros and cons:
Pros:
+high damage attacks
+powerful KO moves
+high range
+great approach options
+varied and multipurpose arsenal
+Above average recovery at least
+good at gimping
+fast running speed
+great grab range
+great grab game
+above average horizontal aerial movement speed

Cons:
-big
-laggy smash attacks
-has only one projectile, short range (Flamethrower)
-easy to spam
-Recovery capable of being gimped by a couple of characters
-vulnerable from below
-slow vertical aerial movement speed

(I have a pros and cons list here. It finally has it's uses)

Overall Utility:
Of all of PT's Pokemon, Charizard is obviously the most reliable and flexible. To be fair, there is not a right and wrong way with Charizard, only a good way and a bad one (OK, several good ways and several bad ones). He is strong enough to hurt, really badly. To compound this, he can outrun all but 6 characters. He can play an offensive or defensive style (depending on preference, situation, and your mood). However, he does have bad matchups, so don't just go into a fight. Also, Charizard doesn't do so well under an opponent, so juggling is an issue. If you can, try to get under your opponent. This is why most U attacks are rated so high in comparison to most other attacks.

Move group Dissection:
Key:
1: Don't use this
2: this isn't recommended, but still plausible moves
3: this is entirely optional
4: Stamped with the seal of recommendation
5: Use this, trust me
-A combo: interestingly, this can be kind of effective when racking up damage. However, with the rest of Charizard's moves, this shouldn't be a necessary action. 3
-Tilts: Charizard's tilts are interestingly as strong as some smash attacks. His Dtilt can KO Mario at 110% and his Ftilt can KO Mario at around 135%. His Ftilt and Utilt are also good damage Rackers. I definitely recommend these.
Ftilt:4
Dtilt:4
Utilt:4
Overall: 4
-Smashes: While Charizard's tilts are fast, most of his smash attacks are rather, slow. His Usmash does execute quickly, but outside that, I don't really recommend them (in fact, Due to Dsmash's really poor range [grounded opponents], I'd might as well give it a 1).
Fsmash:2
Usmash:3
Dsmash:1 (until proven otherwise)
Overall: 2
-Aerials: While not on the level of Squirtle's, Charizard's aerials are really good. His aerials are really powerful, and execute rather quickly (except Dair, but that's a meteor). Fair has a weird mechanic, and while it has a pretty big hitbox, you have to get close to knock an opponent away from you, which can cause some problems. Bair on the other hand, is really good by comparison.
Nair: 3
Fair: 4
Uair: 4
Bair: 5
Dair: 3
Overall: 4
-Grabs: If there was anything I'd recommend that you use the most is Charizard's infamous grab game. His range is among the highest among non tethers, and his throws are powerful and awesome. His Fthrow and Bthrow can be linked for more grabs or combos. Char is very capable of grab releasing, which is really helpful. His most Damaging throw (Uthrow) can easily KO someone of the top on a low ceiling, which is very good indeed. It has come to my attention that Dthrow has problems. While it KOs at the lowest percentages of any throw, it is rather easy to survive. It is more of a surprise KO now. I no longer recommend, but I don't ill recommend either. Shield grabbing is a very common approach method for Charizard, which I recommend. Complete thumbs ups here.
Fthrow: 5
Bthrow: 5
Uthrow: 5
Dthrow: 3
Grab Release: 3
Overall: 5
-Specials: Charizard's specials are rather powerful, but there is one problem, NONE OF CHARIZARD'S SPECIALS ARE CAPABLE OF SPAMMING! This may not sound like a problem, but there are many Youtube videos out there of Noobs and even pros, spamming Rock Smash. Granted, it is a good move, just NOT A GOOD MOVE TO SPAM. Once we get the don't spam message out, time for the real review. Flamethrower is Charizard's only real projectile, and it is pretty good. It is the closest thing Charizard has to Ivy's Bullet Seed, so Use it well. Flamethrower actually does have an anti-spam mechanic in it, over time, the flame diminishes, so that means you have to wait for it to recharge. Rock smash is easily Charizards most damaging move, dealing around 45% damage. This is because the rock fragments after the initial blow deals damage, but the placement has to be right. If you mess up, the rock itself will deal 18% damage and a good deal of Knockback. Fly, is actually kinda good. It has super armor, which prevents gimping. Also, It is quite strong, and can KO off the top (combine with Uthrow to make this easier). It doesn't target the ledge however, and it is prone for getting trapped under lips.
Flamethrower:4
Rock Smash:4
Fly:4 (5 On recovery)
Overall: 4
Glide: While it may seem very good, adding to Charizard's recovery, it isn't that great. I have never been in a situation where gliding was the only option, you can just air jump and DI back to the stage most of the time. Also, it does not have much (if any) attacking importance. While Meta Knight and Pit can (and do) have found ways to utilize their glides as an attack, Charizard's is mostly for recovering purposes. The cancel can be used as an attack, but I don't recommend the glide. I don't ill recommend it either. It's entirely your choice.
Glide: 3
Glide Cancel:3
Overall: 3

Please point out any mistakes.

*gasps again*
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
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Hey cool post Char......wait a minute? How did you get out of my Pokeball?


*Captures Charizard92*


:item9:
 

Itburns

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i think up+b is very underrated as an offensive and defensive move.

its actually a good panic button when you know that you are gonna take a hit that has K.O potential considering the 1st few frames has SA.

its a good counter to rocksmash :)
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
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Again, it's a meh move unless you are trying to recover. Oh, and by the way, the Pokeball broke. I smashed the remaining pieces to dust. I then immediately threw you into the ocean.
 

CaliburChamp

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Charizard's down smash doesn't seem so bad. It has range and a good amount of power. His down-throw is useful at high % since its the throw with the most knockback. Glide attack to jab or grab is also decent enough for some use. I use all of Charizards moves, that only gives him more potential, I don't understand why Charizard92 doesn't like those moves. Its fine though, just saying I find those moves good in certain situations.
 

Itburns

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Again, it's a meh move unless you are trying to recover. Oh, and by the way, the Pokeball broke. I smashed the remaining pieces to dust. I then immediately threw you into the ocean.

nay good sir, rocksmash is the past.. up+b is the fyutcha.

seriously though... up+b is in the same level as rocksmash.
 

Steeler

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fly is way more punishable though. i'd use it oos if i didn't like squirtle's utilt/uair **** so much.
 

Itburns

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it is punishable.. but when used in the right way.. it can score you an easy kill... especially when fresh.

do you remember melee marths dolphin slash? its used the exact same way.
here are its uses that have been beneficial to me:

out of shield,
when stuck in the corner
as a followup from a splattered rocksmash
whenever you see your opponent coming down from above wait till the very last second or wait till hes almost at the ground and do it. SA will go through whatever he was trying to do.

Im calling it now, up+b will become just as important to zard as dolphin slash was to marth.
 

Steeler

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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

i think you have a good point there. it adds even more to zard's defensive and OoS game.
 
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