Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Kitamerby]

Gliding=somewhat pointless on Charizard.

Though you have to admit, it's always nice to have options.

How can Uair properly be used? Who is it best against? I have trouble working it into my game and using it properly for some reason. Thenagain, it might be because the three people I play most often use Ness, Lucario, and G&W...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Looks like there are many people who dont like charizards glide. I personally like it a lot, its charizard's best way to recover horizontally, and the attack is very good in priority, damage, knockback and range( all charizards body, thats craaaazy XD), althought i dont use, cause i play currently with the wiimote and i dont know how to.....

 

[Retro Gaming]

How can Uair properly be used? Who is it best against? I have trouble working it into my game and using it properly for some reason. Thenagain, it might be because the three people I play most often use Ness, Lucario, and G&W...

I tend to use it after Utilt. If your opponent chooses to recover from above the stage, its not a bad idea to incorporate it, either. Remember, the duration is very long.

On the subject of glide, I would like to say that glide shifting (As in holding down after inputing a command for a glide) is a nice way to surprise your opponent with the glide attack, and I think is one of Charizard's only effective options for attacking below him (Where he is weakest).

 

[Kitamerby]

I tend to use it after Utilt. If your opponent chooses to recover from above the stage, its not a bad idea to incorporate it, either. Remember, the duration is very long.

On the subject of Utilt, what is its advantage over Usmash? It seems like it has poor priority and it usually gets hit out of by most character's dairs and nairs.

 

[Retro Gaming]

You're going to have to provide some specific examples. I've never really had a problem with Utilt being beaten out by Nairs, although Dair's often hit through. But for characters like Ness, Ganondorf, etc. that have to time their spikes, it shouldn't be hard to hit them anyway with the amazing range.

I'm also going to add that the attack can also cause pop-up from the sides into the air, again giving you an option to use his Uair or Nair. Generally, Nair is more useful to use for this, as Uair actually has kill potential, although some of the lowest Charizard displays.

Compared to Usmash? The advantage is that you can save Usmash for kill moves and use Utilt for getting them above you or making them prone to one of your aerial moves. I reserve Usmashes for kill attempts, it's not as useful for juggling because missing can be punished much more heavily and it has more cool-down than Utilt.

 

[Charizard92]

On the subject of glide, I would like to say that glide shifting (As in holding down after inputing a command for a glide) is a nice way to surprise your opponent with the glide attack, and I think is one of Charizard's only effective options for attacking below him (Where he is weakest).

What about the Dair?

 

[Retro Gaming]

You're not going to want to do Dair over the stage in most cases, unless they followed you up into the air. If you're too low to the ground, you're going to lag like crazy. I'm assuming you're using this glide attack after coming back from a near fatal blow. The Dair lag is too great to afford anytime.

In all honesty, you're not going to be using it often. It's still an option, though, and definitely has a surprise factor, which is where it shines. If you're foe expects Dair, they're going to plan accordingly. The glide takes some time to come out, which will probably cause their attempt to counter it to fail completely.

 

[Charizard92]

I use the Dair as a gimping move, and I don't glide at all. Charizard is clearly not going to be over any opponents any time soon, which is a good thing if you are trying to juggle him. However, Charizard can escape though.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Okay, my new favorite thing to do with Charizard is abuse grab releases. Versus most characters (Ignore Luigi, Ike, Characters you pick up, etc.) Especially on an unsuspecting victim, they are very prone to working out correctly. Some things you can get out of it:

Grab release -> Regrab: Self explanatory. Maybe you timed your grab attack wrong and went for too long or something, so you grab them again. This is not guaranteed on anyone but Ness, but depending on how your opponent reacts, there are usually ways around it:

If they jab: This is more effective on characters that lack an endless jab but attempt to jab anyway (Marth, Peach, Olimar, etc.) You simply shield the jab(s) (Some give enough time to jab inbetween, others do not) and then you can easily grab again.

If they spot-dodge: Just wait and you can basically do any attack afterwards, or just grab again.

If they do nothing: See above, take off the wait.

Most characters can roll away, but then you're just back at a "neutral" position.

Some of the things I use this for:

• Grab release -> Regrab
• Grab release -> Jab (Normally allows for a re-grab or Dtilt)
• Grab release -> Dtilt (Save for kills)
• Grab release ->Ftilt (Not likely, though)

I must stress that unless you make the grab release look accidental (Don't stop grab attacking or they'll know you're going for an intentional release) then you're opponent may react, even if they've never seen it before. The effectiveness of this lies in the surprise factor, and as thus, you can't really abuse it. It's still an interesting little tactic, though.

 

[Charizard92]

Hmn, interesting. You do realize that you once contradicted yourself here with the regrab. Earlier, if I remember, you said NOT to abuse it, why did you decide to abuse it now? It is a good tactic, but why the contradiction?

 

[Retro Gaming]

I must stress that unless you make the grab release look accidental (Don't stop grab attacking or they'll know you're going for an intentional release) then you're opponent may react, even if they've never seen it before. The effectiveness of this lies in the surprise factor, and as thus, you can't really abuse it. It's still an interesting little tactic, though.

I never really changed my opinion. I just posted about it again to try to get this thread alive again.

 

[Charizard92]

Oh, well, thanks for keeping this alive. Because I became a Metroid fanatic, I've been spending my time playing Metroid prime 3 and Hunters. I finished hunters and am going to finish 3 soon, so I'll get back onto Smash again.
(Oh, and also this will not change my list of favorites in Brawl, Pt will stay my main and Lucario will be my second)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

mmm interesting, hey i discovered some "combo" that can make charizard kill even better, you can jab, jab, dtilt, this is almost a sure hit, just dont use it at low percentages, it wont make sense wasting the dtilts power like that

 

[Retro Gaming]

You really didn't discover it, I've been using that for a long time. It's useful, yes. Sometimes you might have to ditch the second jab, though.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

oh ok...., hey i think theres something new i saw.... sometimes when im star koed with a pokemon, the next one comes out of the pokeball performs the upB or an aerial immediatly after going out, result of my eforts to recover with the last pokemon, im pretty sure its faster than the time pokemon take to attack after a normal change, but its just for star kos, not downB, so i dont know if this can be ever exploited to change pokemon, just wanted to point it out.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Happens to me all too often, and it's not the least bit useful because your opponent won't be anywhere near you, and it just wastes you invincibility frames. =\

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ok so i started to try to incorporate it into the down B pokemon change, and the results are quite interesting, looks like if you hit upB immediatly after downB the next pokemon will come out of its pokeball performing the recovery attack, and it may be just an illusion, but i think that the period of time from the invicibility frames to the attack is a lot of shorter than the normal pokemon change, and all the time i was playing today i did not find vulnerability frames in switching, so i switched everytime i wanted and never got punished, and even hit my oponent with fly some times.But again, im not totally sure about this, i would like someone else to teste it....

 

[Charizard92]

So... you found a way around vulnerability frames? As soon as I get through my Metroid Hunters & 3 100% run, I'll check that.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Ok so i started to try to incorporate it into the down B pokemon change, and the results are quite interesting, looks like if you hit upB immediatly after downB the next pokemon will come out of its pokeball performing the recovery attack, and it may be just an illusion, but i think that the period of time from the invicibility frames to the attack is a lot of shorter than the normal pokemon change, and all the time i was playing today i did not find vulnerability frames in switching, so i switched everytime i wanted and never got punished, and even hit my oponent with fly some times.But again, im not totally sure about this, i would like someone else to teste it....

If this is true that you can control the Up B on the way out, this could potentially save you a lot of percent as you can do all the damage you want with Ivysaur, switch whenever, and get a kill when people try to punish you with it. This even adds a mind-game element to switching: "Is it safe to punish? Should I just steer clear?" and could potentially give you a free switch if you predict that your opponent will not attack you and you don't use your Up B. This will backfire if they predict your Up B. At most I see it working once against somebody, if that.

You know, assuming this is possible. It's more important to see if some other punish options are available that are slightly safer (Charizard: Rock Smash, Ivysaur: Bullet Seed, Squirtle: ?)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yeah, the most important thing is taht you can switch whenever you want, which is an unbelievably fun and cool way to play, and yes, it adds a new mindgame element, it was so funny yesterday because i just incorpored that into my game, and they didnt konw if run away or charge a smash attack, and in the end they just prefered to run away, this doesnt mean you gotta everytime you switch, because upBs are punishable moves, but certainly you can get very unpredictable with it. its very usefull, because charizards fly has superarmor and can kill(althoug doing it this way is like doing it out of shield, so it wont kill very often and is punishable if missed), squirtles waterfalll is kinda the best, because it does good damage, covers very well the area in front of him and is not very punishable when angled forward, ivys vinewhip is not very good, because used that way it wont sweetspot, so the damage and nockback wont be great, the good stuff is that it does what it has to do(cover the area in front of you) nad is the less laggy upB of the three.
I dont know if this is aplicable to other moves, but there are some that anyway wont be a good choice because of their startup lag(charizards fsmash,rocksmash, ivys usmash...) but there are some attacks taht would sound great to perform out of a change,like ivys Dsmash(quick, long range and covers both sides), bullet seed(that would be perfect!!!!!) or zards Usmash, between others.... ill try to teste it today

 

[Retro Gaming]

I can't emulate it in the same regard that you get KO'd while recovering. Can someone check if you're about to Side B during death (As opposed to Up B) you come out that way?

 

[johnmcgerber]

im probally off topic but i think i good way to damage the opopnt easily with doing flame thrower is charizars D-tilt it might even KO some times and its pritty fast. i think its almost as fast as his U-tilt.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Flamethrower doesn't lead to anything. The best it does is tack on some damage, or a lot of damage as an edgeguard against certain characters (lol 50%+ is just priceless).

 

[johnmcgerber]

Flamethrower doesn't lead to anything. The best it does is tack on some damage, or a lot of damage as an edgeguard against certain characters (lol 50%+ is just priceless).

ima have to disagree with ya because with some chars you can kill them at 50 percent which is why i like using flamethrower and 50 percent also increase the knockback of chrizars F-air so your still good in for a KO. and dumb people dont know how to get out of flamethrower sometimes lol they think you go towrds the flame and not outward like pits F-B.

Look im trying to say in my blabering is that flamethrower works lol

 

[MysticKenji]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLKifgBT0L0

Discuss plz.

 

[Onxy]

Doesn't look hard to escape.

 

[Elliot Gale]

It's not really any better than a throw to stomp.

 

[Charizard92]

Is it possible, yes. Is it practical, not really...

 

[Retro Gaming]

Flamethrower doesn't lead to anything. The best it does is tack on some damage, or a lot of damage as an edgeguard against certain characters (lol 50%+ is just priceless).

I'll have to disagree considering if you cut it short (Already your opponent is thinking WTF why?) you can probably squeeze in a grab. Kind of risky, but it's kind of like letting Bullet Seed go early if your opponent is DI'n towards Ivysaur's front (Another grab).

But yeah, generally, nothing.

Lol @ Link, Toon Link, Falco, Fox, etc. that hate Flamethrower.

 

[johnmcgerber]

I'll have to disagree considering if you cut it short (Already your opponent is thinking WTF why?) you can probably squeeze in a grab. Kind of risky, but it's kind of like letting Bullet Seed go early if your opponent is DI'n towards Ivysaur's front (Another grab).

But yeah, generally, nothing.

Lol @ Link, Toon Link, Falco, Fox, etc. that hate Flamethrower.

thats what i tried to explain i just did it poory lol

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yeah flamethrower can lead to some stuff if stpped early, and yor oponent will be confused if you do it, but its just so hard to say no to the fulll damage
By the way, i was playing a little yesterday, and i tried to do again the same upB out of change thing, it worked, but now i couldnt hit iwth it because i was playing against the same people tahn the other day, so they never tried to punish.... lol.... my research made me predictable, oh, and i couldnt do any other attack other than upB, not that i tried a lot, i just played some matches

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Wow i just saw the Nair to stomp video.... cool....specially because its another 0 death charizard combo :D, santi gotta watch that...lol

 

[Charizard92]

Like the grab release, your tactic has become predictable. Try not to spam such a good Idea, that will typically work.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Wow i just saw the Nair to stomp video.... cool....specially because its another 0 death charizard combo :D, santi gotta watch that...lol

Most characters will get around it, in my opinion.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Anyway, its a good surprise blow, if your oponent gets distracted just for three seconds they can end like all the characters on that video

 

[Charizard92]

how many times have you done this successfully to a human opponent anyway?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Since i watched the video, just two times, but that was not the best human player LOL

 

[Charizard92]

I doubt your strategy works then, as a not so good player only twice is like a good player not at all.

 

[Julz]

What do you guys think of retreating fairs? I think it might be more spammable than the normal because you wont get punished for it. Also I've KO'd once using flamethrower to edgeguard.

 

[Fearmy]

you could use Retreating Fairs for mindgames. Since it Auto cancels, you can quickly retreat into a D-air at around 100%, and if you haven't used it before, IT should kill around then