Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Squirtle is obviously the best one here.

You do NOT want a diddy to get momentum, you want it on your side.

Picking Ivysaur and Charizard will def. be a nightmare.

 

[Bomber7]

looks like this wont last for long, I'll let this discussion go on for like another day or 2, most of the few posts have been straight to the point.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Use Squirtle. The whole match-up, if possible. I barely bother with Ivysaur, and I love Ivysaur.

plus you can do better stuff out of a glide toss than he can, imo.

I totally agree with this. The only thing is you need to be up on your banana/glide toss game, which is kind of awkward for a character that does not have the ability to create thrown items. The Diddy match-up is really one you just need to play to learn, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, Diddy's aerials < Squirtle's aerials.

 

[Bomber7]

As far as I know switching will be a key part when it comes to starting and maintaining the game. All out for Squirtle. that means you have to do something with Ivy and Charizard to get back to Squirtle. there really isnt much we can do against ditty but play smart and keep squirtle out.

I'm gona have my friend teach me glide toss this friday. he plays ZZS and he glide tosses like its nothing.

 

[Ryusuta]

Indeed, this match DOES seem to be tailor-made for Squirtle. Heck, even his Withdraw is immune to Banana Peels (something that can't be said for Rollout/Spin Dash Charge/Egg Roll). Not that you'd be using this move much, of course, but it's nice to know you have that option.

 

[Bomber7]

i didnt know that. thats interesting. though I want to put in the summary a good plan to get all the way back to squirtle if he gets KO'd. Imo, Ivy could nair spam and the use one of her powerful smashes or a throw and get ditty away, whether he dies or not and switch to charz, by then you should be at a high % so charz will die and you have squirtle again all fully recharged.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Ryusuta]

I'll see if I can work something out in terms of other tidbits of info, but to be honest, this match is NOT one of my strong suits overall. Actually, not to put too fine a point on it, but Diddy Kong is my single worst character to fight against in the entire roster... using ANYONE. I literally have no counterpicks for him or instincts against him. ^^;

 

[Bomber7]

mine are basically just G&W and ditty, otherwise oddly enough, my squirtle does BEST against marth, and Ivy and Charz do well.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, my Squirtle holds up well against Marth, too. My Charizard, however, SUCKS against him.

 

[CHOMPY]

When im up against Diddy Kong I usually start off Squirtle and use my hit and run tactic when Diddy has the bananas. Once I have the bananas then im in control and Squirtles Aerial game is better than Diddy Kong's any day. Sometimes I start off with Ivysaur or Charizard to throw off my opponent. With Ivysaur though I just spam her razor leaves to make it a wall of Razor leaves. Making it hard for Diddy Kong to approach. Dont forget that Ivysaur can glide toss backwards but keep in mind that she cant glidetoss fowards.

 

[Bomber7]

but yeah, we need to formulate a good strategy for sending in a wave of squirtle for this match up. its not so much as the starting with squirtle but maintaining the match with squirtle and getting back to him when he is KO'd

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

i didnt know that. thats interesting. though I want to put in the summary a good plan to get all the way back to squirtle if he gets KO'd. Imo, Ivy could nair spam and the use one of her powerful smashes or a throw and get ditty away, whether he dies or not and switch to charz, by then you should be at a high % so charz will die and you have squirtle again all fully recharged.

Any other suggestions?

Best thing to do with either is hold a bannana and use B moves with Ivysaur. Nair is good too.

Charizard's aerials are good though, so use NAIR.

 

[Bomber7]

cool.

well since I suck against fitty kong, and I'm watching yu yu hakusho, I'm just gona teach my Squirtle Spirit Gun. hold on I think he has it.

*Squirtle is trying to learn spirit gun, but squirtle can only have four moves, would you like to delete a move?

-yes

*which move should be forgotten?
>Water Gun >Waterfall
>surf >Withdrawl

-clicks on water gun

*1...2... and poof.
Squirtle forgot water gun and learned Spirit Gun

-sweet >=]

 

[Toby.]

Bananas go through razor leaves. Also, since its such a slow attack it leaves ivysaur very vulerable without much payoff.

Also, Diddy's flip kick goes straight through rock smash. It completely beats rocks smash and diddy takes no damage. Not cool.

 

[Kris121]

it goes through Rock smash thats not fair. I call hax. It shouldn't even touch RS


Rock Smash= RS= Runescape

LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Bomber7]

**** runescape. since 5 years ago, it's been ****. it used to be fun but then you had the massive wave of n00bs and autoers and then even the n00bs started calling the veterans like me a n00b, then they listed like every item and where to get it and what level you have to be so now pure rangers can wear a ranger helm(lol RS speak) and only have a defence of 1. not to mention that economy program have totally screwed up the system.

I kinda miss playing it but wouldnt go back to it not even for a million dollars (no I dont mean GP!)

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

it goes through Rock smash thats not fair. I call hax. It shouldn't even touch RS


Rock Smash= RS= Runescape

LOLOLOLOLOL

But isn't Jump Kick stronger than Rock Smash anyway?

 

[Retro Gaming]

Also, Diddy's flip kick goes straight through rock smash. It completely beats rocks smash and diddy takes no damage. Not cool.

As long as we're talking about random stuff Flip Kick beats for no reason, it also beats Flamethrower. Usually you will win because of the "stall" that occurs when a move hits another (Or attacking Luigi's Mansion's pillars, for instance) and Diddidy Kong's attack will eventually be forced to end before he gets through all of Flamethrower. If he DI's up out of it he can probably Flip Kick right into you, though, so make sure to end a little earlier than usual.

Seriously, Monkey Flip (Kick) is what I consider to be Diddy's best attack.

Although, now that I think about it, does the Kick lose to shards or no? I can't seem to remember.

 

[Ryusuta]

Although, now that I think about it, does the Kick lose to shards or no? I can't seem to remember.

Only if you're retreating with it and catch him at a distance.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Technically alot of moves are stronger than Rocksmash, Shadow. Rocksmash sucks. XD

Squirtle is the obvious choice since Squirtle is more or less immune to bananas and he can actually use them with equal proficiency against Diddy as well. (Quite frankly, I think Diddy's bananas kind of counter himself...)

You can chose Ivysaur since Ivysaur has decent, not good, but decent follow up with his own glide toss. (Forward glide toss to sliding UpB snipe is total win XD) But I wouldn't recommend Ivysaur as a starter since you go into Charizard on next stock, so that's never a good thing against Diddy who'll just combo the hell out of Ivysaur.

Granted, the stragedy to get Ivysaur in as a starter, then switch out to Charizard at high percentages, get him killed resulting into Squirtle switch immediately after that isn't too bad an idea. Since when you switch to Charizard, Diddy usually will be either at high percent for a charizard kill, or at low damage on next stock so you can try to get some good hits in before Charizard KOs.

 

[Ryusuta]

Technically alot of moves are stronger than Rocksmash, Shadow. Rocksmash sucks. XD+

...Wow.

Okay.

So, I see this is your first time ever playing as Charizard.

You can chose Ivysaur since Ivysaur has decent, not good, but decent follow up with his own glide toss. (Forward glide toss to sliding UpB snipe is total win XD)

Does Ivysaur HAVE a forward glide-toss? I thought he could only glide-toss backward.

 

[Bomber7]

would it be worth adding Ivy to the chart? It's a little iffy imo. I know Squirtle is definitely going to stay for obvious reasons, however Ivy seems to have a slight chance. Though this is a thread dedicated to finding the best starter(s). Unless you are god with Ivy, I wouldnt recommend starting with Ivy. Squirtle is definitely the best choice to start up.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'd say that Squirtle is by and large the best, and it looks like the consensus is in agreement. Ivy CAN fight Diddy, but Squirtle is much better off, especially early on.

 

[Bomber7]

I'll just keep squirtle on as the starter. But I will make a short note in Squirtles summary about Ivy's ability to fight Ditty(maybe)

 

[Magik0722]

Is there even a disscusion on diddy kong, squirtle 100%

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, outside Squirtle, PT is at a natural disadvantage to Diddy. This is one of those match ups where you actually try to fight with only one Pokemon (Falco is another).

 

[Toby.]

Yes Orion, Ivysaur has a forward glide toss.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, outside Squirtle, PT is at a natural disadvantage to Diddy. This is one of those match ups where you actually try to fight with only one Pokemon (Falco is another).

Actually, all three Pokemon are bad against Falco.

 

[Steeler]

everyone has a glide toss in all directions

it just has a distance of 0 sometimes lol

charizard has glide toss distances all around, but they are the smallest non-zero distances in the game

if you have an exceptional squirtle or charizard, you can handle falco. it's only a 4/6 disadvantage in both matchups imo.

ivysaur is the absolute worst though. all three are forced to approach and ivysaur definitely has the worst approach of the three.

 

[Bomber7]

I'm going out to lunch in a bit. when I get back we can move on to the next character, so continue discussing until I get back

 

[Magik0722]

well true that all pokemon have a disadvantage to falco, its just squirtle sucks the least

 

[Bomber7]

Donkey Kong Discussion

ok so this officially marks the DONKEY KONG DISCUSSION

Chart says: Squirtle, Ivy and Charz to start. Agree? Debate.

I want to agree on basically the same thoughts in the bowser discussion.

 

[Ryusuta]

Perhaps the biggest mistake a PT can make is thinking that DK is just another heavyweight. He's much, MUCH more than that, as anyone who has played a DK master can attest. What more can you expect for the first character to be considered a Snake counter?

Having said that, all three of them make a great case for starting against DK for much the same reasons as they do for Bowser.

Squirtle has to be extraordinarily careful against DK, because the range on his tilts and specials are essentially the size of Squirtle's whole BODY! And forget about shield-grabbing DK. Unless you catch him off of a bad up B landing, it's just not gonna happen; and you'll end up getting grabbed yourself (or worse). However, Squirtle has Kong completely dominated in terms of air speed, and his insta-hydroplane makes a very helpful spacing tool against him as well. DK also has to measure his aggression against Squirtle, because if he pushes too hard, he'll take as much as 70% or more damage off of the up tilt lock. In short, play fast and loose, don't give him a target, and let him make the first mistake.

Like Squirtle, Ivysaur has to keep a watchful eye against DK. Ivysaur's main weakness is early gimps, and gimping is one of DK's specialties. As a major offset for this, however, Ivysaur is one of the few characters that's realistically capable of spacing Kong. Razor Leafs and back airs are essential for the opening phase of the match. DO NOT APPROACH DONKEY KONG. Make him come to you. And once he does, you can start peppering in the damaging attacks that Ivysaur is known best for. Bear in mind that DK does have a "safe" zone - a position in which his tilts outreach your damaging moves and outspeed your keepaway moves. Be VERY careful of this zone, and you'll handle the match very well. Ivysaur, when used properly here, can completely control things.

Filling his role as Godzilla to DK's King Kong, Charizard can also make a viable choice in this matchup. Charizard needs to fight a little differently than normal against DK, because trying to space with Flamethrower/Rock Smash simply isn't going to cut it, here. You're just asking for a back air wall, which WILL win against you. What Charizard's got going for him is his inside game, his grapples (specifically for the setups) and his up-close specials combined with his ground speed. Because DK does NOT auto-sweet spot the ledge, Charizard is also a major threat to the Kong when he gets him off stage. Flamethrower, forward air, and down air are ungodly in the fight against Kong when he's trying to recover. Just beware of armor frames.

All three of them should pay EXTREMELY close attention to his holds, tilts, aerial walls, and off-stage game. This match is a test of patience and stage positioning.

 

[Steeler]

i guess all three are usable.

squirtle's the riskiest though because he has the least safe options. flamethrower is ridiculously safe against dk and ivy's typical spacing moves are quite effective. yeah squirtle can wreck dk's stock with comboz and a quick gimp (dair easily goes through the top of dk's spinning kong) but **** up and dk can take your stock at like 80% :\

ivysaur requires teamwork with charizard because you kind of lack solid KO options. ivy will just be nipping and poking at dk most of the time until you get a safe opportunity to nair/bs/grab. grabs seem to be more effective in this matchup for me because dk is so large and lacks projectiles.

honestly, in this matchup, you should be focusing on charizard the most because charizard's safe/spacing options actually do great damage and are effective. (flamethrower, rock smash/grabs) flamethrower should beat dk bair straight up if you space it. the bair will go through it for a little bit but then end, so unless dk is really close to you (in which case you should have grabbed or rock smashed), you are safe. dk bair PROBABLY goes through rock smash so you need to either space it or time it correctly. grab is smexy. your gimp game is REALLY sexy. flamethrower, dair, fair/bair.

i just think charizard is the most effective pokemon and doesn't have problems with staying safe while doing damage or killing dk. ideally, you should be able to build a good lead first stock and when you die, squirtle comes out at 0% and dk has some damage so you can get rid of him and ivy comes out. ivysaur is a starter option. i'd avoid squirtle as much as i could in this matchup because dk's hitboxes are huge and you have to be risky to do something. most importantly, both the other two actually work well in this matchup. it's not that squirtle is bad here, but the other two are better and don't force you to take unnecessary risks with squirt. but if you are going to seriously use squirtle for a while, use him at the beginning of a stock. that or just camp the **** out of dk with water gun and air dancing. :D

so...idk you can use all three lol. but i'd order it as 1. charizard 2. ivysaur 3. squirtle.

 

[Bomber7]

well remember steeler, this is just starting, and it's not like we want to keep one pokemon out for the whole stock or match. It's just keeping in mind that we may want to have a constant pressure on our opponent by using guerrilla tactics with squirtle for DK then switch to Ivy for maybe a little more then switch to Charz for the kill. With a constant pressure of switching, it may demoralize your opponent, keep them under pressure and maybe they will make the first mistake, and if could be fatal.

 

[Steeler]

well remember steeler, this is just starting, and it's not like we want to keep one pokemon out for the whole stock or match. It's just keeping in mind that we may want to have a constant pressure on our opponent by using guerrilla tactics with squirtle for DK then switch to Ivy for maybe a little more then switch to Charz for the kill. With a constant pressure of switching, it may demoralize your opponent, keep them under pressure and maybe they will make the first mistake, and if could be fatal.

dk is pretty fat so you need more damage to make the switch.

i don't see a reason to switch when charizard is out there (unless you are completely fatigued and need squirtle dthrow to kill). using ivysaur first so charzy isn't fatigued when it is KO time is cool but charizard isn't at risk of gimpage at any point, unlike ivysaur. i just feel like charizard is the least risky poke to use here.

i'm not a huge fan of switching just to switch and use a little bit of all three in a short span in matchups against hugely powerful characters. just use your best pokemon imo. otherwise you are taking unnecessary risks. by that i mean that switching itself is a risk and using a really light character and really gimpable character are risks. obviously this isn't really a problem if you are wrecking their stock and you are still at a fresh percent while they are at 100 but i'm assuming a pretty even bout.

but that's just my opinion, maybe most people feel differently. you can switch a lot and use all three but i don't see a reason to do that instead of ZARDING IT UP BABY.

king kong loses to godzilla

 

[Bomber7]

welll i think thats why all 3 are on there. because they all have a good capability to fight against DK, not to mention switching is flexible. Plus its not like it is ditty where for the most part, if you dont start with squirtle, you just wasted a stock. so here really it doesnt matter, because there is no downside to starting out with any of the three. and yes i can agree, charizard is a really great starter

 

[Steeler]

yeah i agree that all 3 can work. maybe it's just that my charizard usually does best here.

we should prioritize which ones are the best if your are flexible/good enough to use all three on dk though.

 

[Bomber7]

yeah my squirtle and ivy would be best against DK, charz would be ok, but thats cuz charz isnt my best and squirtle and ivy are

 

[CHOMPY]

Ivysaur doesnt perform that badly against Donkey Kong that he cant do it on his own. There are downsides to dealing with Donkey Kong. Once your grabbed and Donkey Kong walks off the stage with Ivysaur and throws her off the stage. Then its all over because Donkey Kong can simply edgeguard. I try to avoid getting grabbed by Donkey Kong spamming razor leaves and using my tilts mainly so Donkey cant grab her. Don't bother using the Nair to bullet seed so much since your just going to get shield grabbed anyways....

ivysaur requires teamwork with charizard because you kind of lack solid KO options.

What Steeler meant was dont bother using Ivysaur as your revenge killer or anything like that. If you play D/P/Plt or any other of the Game Boy games. Ivysaur was meant to rack damage and not kill where as Charizard is meant to kill or sweep if you think of those in DS/Gameboy terms.