Combos, Do They Still Exist?

[The Executive]

Combos by archetypical fighting game standards do not exist in Brawl. The closest thing consists of mirroring opponent DI like a hawk and capitalizing with high-priority moves.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Yes, I made a mistake, he wasn't trying to Fair, he was trying to Nair.





However, it doesn't not change the fact that he could've DI'd out, double jumped, or air dodged. The whole point of this discussion is that you are claiming this to be a combo. However, this is not a combo!!! You even admit it.

I know that, but if you can punish the airdodge and you know exactly when they can airdodge, then it's still as good a punishment as a true combo though.

See, you say that it isn't a true combo. However, there's no such thing as a "false combo" as an accepted term by the community. So, I can only assume that something is either a combo or it isn't.



If you want to state that the IC was able to predict the ****ty R.O.B. and hit him multiple times, then Yuna and I would probably agree with you. However, you are saying that it is something that it isn't.


This is like saying the Wave Shining is an infinite in melee!! However, if the opponent DIs away from Fox, they slide too far away to keep the combo up forever. Therefore, it isn't not an infinite, just a combo.

Infinite = A combo that does not end.
Combo = A series of unescapable, non-interruptable attacks, once the first one hits.
Attacks = An animation coupled with a hit box.

 

[I.T.P]

Yes, I made a mistake, he wasn't trying to Fair, he was trying to Nair.





However, it doesn't not change the fact that he could've DI'd out, double jumped, or air dodged. The whole point of this discussion is that you are claiming this to be a combo. However, this is not a combo!!! You even admit it.






See, you say that it isn't a true combo. However, there's no such thing as a "false combo" as an accepted term by the community. So, I can only assume that something is either a combo or it isn't.



If you want to state that the IC was able to predict the ****ty R.O.B. and hit him multiple times, then Yuna and I would probably agree with you. However, you are saying that it is something that it isn't.


This is like saying the Wave Shining is an infinite in melee!! However, if the opponent DIs away from Fox, they slide too far away to keep the combo up forever. Therefore, it isn't not an infinite, just a combo.

Infinite = A combo that does not end.
Combo = A series of unescapable, non-interruptable attacks, once the first one hits.
Attacks = An animation coupled with a hit box.

I stated it is a combo, but I was wrong, and admitted to being wrong, it is a predicted string of attacks and if R.O.B would've DIed or airdodged, he would have gotten hit again, for an overall less damage than the full string, but enough to make it impressive.

I allready admitted to my mistake of claiming this is a combo, according to void's new tests the luigi combo I mentioned isn't inescapable as well in terms of you can air dodge in the middle, but you will also be able to punish afterwards and it'll be very effective in any case.

I admit to being wrong on the combo thing, heck, it seems you people are even right about there universally not being more than a few inescapable 4-5+ hit combos in the game, but if you can punish an air dodge, it's not that diffrent IMO.

It surprised and dissapointed me as well, but I don't think the damage to the game is that big.

some really long and even 0-KO combos are still there, but they all involve Chain grabs and are very hard to execute perfectly enough to be counted as a combo.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Oh, ok. I didn't know you conceded to the point that it wasn't a combo.



Ok, so, how exactly is "an air dodge punishable"? Also, this is very similar to a GG term. I think it might be called Recovery Trapping. Haven't played GG in FOREVER. I just know that Potemkin uses it to kill noobs, lol.


Anyway, in that specific situation, what could that IC have done if...

1. R.O.B. double jumped after first hit and got out of range.

2. R.O.B. air dodges past IC.



Both of these example result in R.O.B. not taking very much damage at all or none perhaps! If you would like to argue the exact perfect thing the IC could've done, I will argue the exact perfect thing R.O.B. could've done.

some really long and even 0-KO combos are still there, but they all involve Chain grabs and are very hard to execute perfectly enough to be counted as a combo.

Chain Grab != Combo

 

[Ganny]

We have combos in brawl, its just that they are few and far between.

My take is that there are two subdivisions of combos

Pure combos which are the rarest in brawl, are the combos that are inescapable. One such example is ganondorf's side b -> a combo. There is no way to escape that with most characters.

Now we come to impure combos. These are the combos which can be escaped with dodging, di-ing in the right direction, etc.. There are innumerable impure combos, some are hard to pull off and some are easy. Well thats not what the subject is about, but to answer your questions: There are strings of attacks that are combos in which a character can't escape, but they are in a very small amount.

 

[The Executive]

Chain grab is worse than in Melee, just w/ certain matchups. It's a combo in my book.

 

[Yuna]

R.O.B could've airdodged, but would have continued to get hit afterwards at some points in that combo, he did try to Nair most of them, and he tried to Fair once, look again.

No he wouldn't. Because the ICs were spamming moves. All he had to do was DI away from the ICs (in which case the Nair would've actually had time to come out and so would an airdodge). If you airdodge into the ground, you have 0 lag so he could've DI:ed away, waited to be right above the ground and then airdodged so he landed during the airdodge.

Hitstun did end inbetween hits, but the fact is that R.O.B tried to Nair and couldn't, and had he airdodged, he would've been hit while exiting the airdodge.

Because he didn't DI.

I do admit it's much more escapable than I thought it was when my friend told me about it, and less impressive, though it still is impressive.

It's impressive how? How much the R.O.B. sucked?! Anyone can spam moves if the opponent doesn't DI. I've chaingrabbed people as Sheik in PAL-Melee. Impressive? Hardly.

I know that, but if you can punish the airdodge and you know exactly when they can airdodge, then it's still as good a punishment as a true combo though.

This is why you call it "Mix-upping". You don't always do the exact same thing with the exact same thing. Also, ever heard of "DI:ing away from a combo"? It helps... a lot.

And it's not a true combo. It's not even a fake one. It's the opponent sucking.

I don't know if the DI would've made as much of a diffrence as you think it would've, especially since the initial knockback was low, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Here's a clue, Columbo, research it. Go into Training Mode and test it out. Instead of saying "I don't think" (you think a lot but you never have facts to back it up).

I tend to exaggerate, yes, but I never made "Huge mistakes" and most of my arguments to you in any thread were "refuted" by opinions declared as facts, and repeatedly using the same ones while we're in that matter.

No they weren't. Most of them were refuted by facts based on... facts. I have to repeatedly use the same ones because I always use the best arguments in any given situation. But if you constantly ignore said arguments (yet you'll reply to parts of my posts without said arguments), then I have to repeat them, especially if you keep repeating the same inane "arguments".

If I am making a point that is testable and was tested by my friend, I tend to believe him, in this case we were wrong, and I noticed it and I admit it. it doesn't mean other combos don't work.

It doesn't mean they will either. You saying "This combo works" without having even tested it yourself =/= Facts.

actually, no you don't, mostly you consider your own opinions as facts, you give absurdly specific examples and claim them as the ultimate truth and law, I've yet to see you post a video evidence of anything you said, and your "anecdotal evidence" and "scientifically provable" statements are mostly just claims that you expect me to list specific examples against, which there are too many for me to start listing in many cases.

Of course they are specific, because they're relevant to the situation at hand. If there are so many to list, why can't you list a single one most of the time (almost always)?

Stop trying to find new ways of simply saying "I just can't compete with you, you know too much, you're almost always right, I'm almost always wrong, I'm just too stupid to realize it".

but I'll admit the post I just quoted was a major improvement towards actually listening to what the other side says when you debate, instead of dimissing them, misreading them, and stating opinions as facts like you usually do.

Funny, because I always write like that. You not being able to see past your rage because someone is suggesting you're wrong, no matter how right they are, does not in any way invalidate what they have to say if it is indeed valuable.

about the combos I mentioned, I had void test some more, and while some points are airdodgeable, the resulting position is easily punishable, and allows you to continue the punishment, so while it is a string and not a combo, it's basically the same effect.

It's only punishable if you predict the airdodge. If you're too busy having just done a move, then you won't be punishing anyone easily if at all.

"Same effect" =/= Same thing
String of attacks inbetween each the opponent has chances to get out of it =/= Combo
Me = Right
You = Wrong
Twin Dreams: "Yuna is right."

 

[The Executive]

Yuna, I heart your sig. Props.

 

[Yuna]

I stated it is a combo, but I was wrong, and admitted to being wrong, it is a predicted string of attacks and if R.O.B would've DIed or airdodged, he would have gotten hit again, for an overall less damage than the full string, but enough to make it impressive.

No he wouldn't. Not if he did it right. And especially not if he'd used, gasp, DI.

I allready admitted to my mistake of claiming this is a combo, according to void's new tests the luigi combo I mentioned isn't inescapable as well in terms of you can air dodge in the middle, but you will also be able to punish afterwards and it'll be very effective in any case.

Wow, how surprised I am. I was right, you were wrong.

I admit to being wrong on the combo thing, heck, it seems you people are even right about there universally not being more than a few inescapable 4-5+ hit combos in the game, but if you can punish an air dodge, it's not that diffrent IMO.

What the... first you say "I was wrong... I guess." and then you say "But if you predict the future, then hey, well, it's the same thing I guess".

It surprised and dissapointed me as well, but I don't think the damage to the game is that big.

Yes it is. What you think is irrelevant, especially when you're wrong. Nobody cares you got disappointd. We care that you were, once again, cataclysmically wrong, yet when I presented extremely valid facts, arguments and examples of why you were wrong, you declared me wrong without presenting any kind of counter-arguments and saying "You're just too stupid to reply to".

Then you kinda admit to being wrong and instead go off claiming some more outlandish stuff.

some really long and even 0-KO combos are still there, but they all involve Chain grabs and are very hard to execute perfectly enough to be counted as a combo.

And once more you're wrong. How to do =/= Should not count as a combo.

As long as it's doable, it's a combo.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, I heart your sig. Props.

I'm starting a new trend. You should copy + paste it into your sig to join the trend. Make sure to get the blue-button in there as well so people can click it and go to the post from which the quote originated (for context).

Tell all your friends!

 

[VirtualVoid]

What I.T.P was trying to say that the uair would end before the airdodge, giving enough time to get in position and attack when the airdodge ends.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Also, I'd like to reiterate that Chain Grabbing is not a combo. It is a chain grab.


You can combo into a chain grab.
You can chain grab into a combo.
You can connect to Combos with a chain grabbing.


Note: if you HAVE to use ONE grab, it is part of the combo. However, if you can chain grab at that point, you are then chain grabbing until you finish the combo, not continuing the combo with a chain grab.


If that makes any sense. I can explain in greater detail if you like. I tried thinking on an analogy, but couldn't really think of one that fit right. Maybe someone else can. (Yuna)

Twin Dreams: "Yuna is right."

What he said.

 

[The Executive]

Also, I'd like to reiterate that Chain Grabbing is not a combo. It is a chain grab.


You can combo into a chain grab.
You can chain grab into a combo.
You can connect to Combos with a chain grabbing.


Note: if you HAVE to use ONE grab, it is part of the combo. However, if you can chain grab at that point, you are then chain grabbing until you finish the combo, not continuing the combo with a chain grab.


If that makes any sense. I can explain in greater detail if you like. I tried thinking on an analogy, but couldn't really think of one that fit right. Maybe someone else can. (Yuna)






What he said.

What differentiates between chain grabbing and a combo? I always held the notion that a combo within the context of a fighting game was a sequence of chained, non-escapable hits (non-escapable meaning no DI possibility). Would chain grabbing not fit the bill, or is it excluded due to the fact that it requires the use of the environment and/or only works at certain percentages/on certain characters?

I'm not necessarily arguing, I'm just a bit confused.

Also, to Yuna: I got the link, but the button is absent. Is there a string of code I need to add or an HTML tag I'm missing?

 

[Yuna]

What I.T.P was trying to say that the uair would end before the airdodge, giving enough time to get in position and attack when the airdodge ends.

Not if he airdodged before the Uair. And if he DI:ed away, the ICs would have to chase the DI (requiring additional time).

DI + airdodge into landing and shielding/doing a jab or DI + airdodge into aerial would've taken care of the comboing problem. If the ICs were lucky, they could've, like, punished him with a dashattack or something.

It takes ample time to whiff a move (airdodged), chase the DI, jump off the ground and then start an aerial. During this time, R.O.B. has options of his own.

 

[Yuna]

What differentiates between chain grabbing and a combo? I always held the notion that a combo within the context of a fighting game was a sequence of chained, non-escapable hits (non-escapable meaning no DI possibility). Would chain grabbing not fit the bill, or is it excluded due to the fact that it requires the use of the environment and/or only works at certain percentages/on certain characters?

I'm not necessarily arguing, I'm just a bit confused.

Also, to Yuna: I got the link, but the button is absent. Is there a string of code I need to add or an HTML tag I'm missing?

All you need to do is copy and paste the entire sig including the button. Maybe you're also required to have your settings use the extensive formatting option as in when you reply to posts, you get the big menu with fonts and stuff and not just the regular one with smileys and whatnot.

Are you getting what I'm saying?

 

[The Executive]

Yeah. I'll look into that.

 

[VirtualVoid]

Not if he airdodged before the Uair. And if he DI:ed away, the ICs would have to chase the DI (requiring additional time).

DI + airdodge into landing and shielding/doing a jab or DI + airdodge into aerial would've taken care of the comboing problem. If the ICs were lucky, they could've, like, punished him with a dashattack or something.

It takes ample time to whiff a move (airdodged), chase the DI, jump off the ground and then start an aerial. During this time, R.O.B. has options of his own.

What I meant is that the whiffed uair would end before the airdodge. So it would end up as:

1. First uair connects
2. R.O.B airdodge begins
3. Popo uair beigns (And misses)
4. Popo uair ends
5. R.O.B invincibility frames end. <-----At the point Popo could punish.

 

[Yuna]

What I meant is that the whiffed uair would end before the airdodge. So it would end up as:

1. First uair connects
2. R.O.B airdodge begins
3. Popo uair beigns (And misses)
4. Popo uair ends
5. R.O.B invincibility frames end. <-----At the point Popo could punish.

DI, aerials, DI:ing into the ground, airdodge to airdodge. You have plenty of options. Especially against IC "combos" like that.

You're not factoring in the many options one has in this game for recovering.

 

[VirtualVoid]

DI, aerials, DI:ing into the ground, airdodge to airdodge. You have plenty of options. Especially against IC "combos" like that.

You're not factoring in the many options one has in this game for recovering.

I was talking about the fact that its been said that he could airdodge to avoid the "combo".
What it all comes down to is that after the first uair hit, all the options R.O.B had could be punished.

1. Fair/Nair - Not fast enough to hit the IC before the next uair.
2. DIng the first uair would not provide enough distance to avoid the second uair.
3. Airdodge - Like I said before the uair would end before the airdodge giving enough time to get ready for punishment. A second airdodge is not an option because R.O.B would already take a hit at the lag after the first dodge.

 

[Yuna]

I was talking about the fact that its been said that he could airdodge to avoid the "combo".
What it all comes down to is that after the first uair hit, all the options R.O.B had could be punished.

You're not supposed to do only one of these things. You're supposed to do them all.

1. Fair/Nair - Not fast enough to hit the IC before the next uair.

Depends on if you airdodge first and/or DI or not. If you DI too far away, they'll have to run up to you, providing you with more time to startup your aerial.

2. DIng the first uair would not provide enough distance to avoid the second uair.

Nobody said you could get out of the combo from the very first hit.

3. Airdodge - Like I said before the uair would end before the airdodge giving enough time to get ready for punishment. A second airdodge is not an option because R.O.B would already take a hit at the lag after the first dodge.

I disagree. If you DI as well (especially more than one hit), you'll have enough time to either aerial, airdodge, or if all else fails, Up B.

 

[PCHU]

Well, pertaining to the main question, it depends on YOUR definition of a combo.
If you mean AAA, then duh, there are still some.
If you mean attacking without stopping, therefore racking up an amazing amount of damage, then no, besides triple D's chain.
Or, in my case, If you mean juggling, then YEAH, they haven't done away with that.

With Lucas, I have become very fond of all his moves, and I know how to string them together.
He has a VERY spammable PK fire, which I always begin matches with.
It's also good because it stays horizontal, so PK fire, jump, PK Fire, Fast fall, jump,
Pk Fire.......
Or, his fair.
I got Ness with that one.
Just keep advancing with your opponent, and fair to keep him suspended.
That simple.

So, yes, there are still combos. =)

 

[billywill]

They pretty impossible I performed a combo (with luck and skill) against a lvl 9 he had 0% and I comboed him up to 70% to death (I'm not a noob, I know what comboing is), it was in a 4-stock and that was the cpu's last life so I couldn't wait for the result screen only to find out the match lasted 3:22 seconds

 

[Best101]

or set their life to 999% and grab them then hit a a bunch of times.... or do the infinite chain grab against a wall... or a lot of smart bombs

Or just make a stage a with a small box area, and press and hold A with Falco (or anybody else). I got 999 combos doing that

 

[Rhubarbo]

ITP what you showed might have been a combo (maybe) but they are much more rare in Brawl...and most of the times you might not produce one for an entire match. This is why Melee has an edge over Brawl, it's more engaging and exciting. It's not better because of it's extra techs...

 

[The Executive]

Toon Link: up-thrown bomb->forward hyphen-smash, hit on backwards side->bomb connects-> u-air death.

NOT A COMBO. It probably can be DI'd out of, but not with Lucas at 100% or above. It's also insanely fun to perform. Toon Link is just a beast. WAY too heavy for someone his size/speed, and the projectiles/aerials are superb.

 

[Rhubarbo]

That is possible...maybe? Either way, most characters have 0-little combos, and the combos usually consist of little hits.

 

[Rebel581]

Melee had very few "true" combos too (albeit more than this game). Marth had one. Fox had one. Sheik SEMI had one. Captain Falcon had many that all ended in me dying from a knee >_> (I'm not actually sure how many of them there were but all of them ended in a knee).

It was mostly about hitting them. Putting yourself in an advantageous position, and following their DI/techs. While this is harder in Brawl (stupid airdodging), you can bait the airdodge since airdodges cannot be done in reaction to an attack. They come out to slow. The person has to choose to use the airdodge before you attack. Then you can hit them afterwards. Although this is harder too, it's possible since I've baited people's airdodges and hit them before. It was much easier to do in Melee though.

 

[The Executive]

That is possible...maybe? Either way, most characters have 0-little combos, and the combos usually consist of little hits.

It's not a combo, just a sequence of attacks possible if damage is right (80-110%) and your opponent is a DI moron. It ust looks good, and may have been a combo had DI been toned down and hitstun implemented. It's looks from the hit trajectory kind of similar to a one-person Luigi Ladder.

OOOOOOOOdeath
OOOOOOOOO|
OOOOOOOOO|
OOOOOOOOO/u-air
OOOoOOOO/
Oo[[bomb/
OOOOOOO\
OOOOOOiio\
OOOOOOOio\
OOOOOOOOO\
OOOOOOOOou-smash

 

[Twin Dreams]

Fox on fast fallers.... - U-throw -> u-tilt -> u-tilt -> U-throw -> u-tilt -> U-air -> u-air


doesn't it go something like that? There were plenty of combos in melee. Some of them were really good.

 

[The Id]

I really don't think combos are "dead". Not only have I seen videos of matches, and even COMBO videos (<----See what I did there?), I've pulled off some combos myself. Falco and Lucario were some of the most notable. I don't know why people claim that they don't exist anymore...

 

[Rhubarbo]

On a sidenote, my theory on why they toned down hitsun is because many noobs in Melee where probably not able to jump after being knocked off a stage. I had to figure out that you had to perform an aerial to do your next jump. Meh, it's not like when we bought Brawl they took our Melee discs (unless some idiots actually sold their copy of Melee).

 

[LouisLeGros]

Melee had very few "true" combos too (albeit more than this game). Marth had one. Fox had one. Sheik SEMI had one. Captain Falcon had many that all ended in me dying from a knee >_> (I'm not actually sure how many of them there were but all of them ended in a knee).

It was mostly about hitting them. Putting yourself in an advantageous position, and following their DI/techs. While this is harder in Brawl (stupid airdodging), you can bait the airdodge since airdodges cannot be done in reaction to an attack. They come out to slow. The person has to choose to use the airdodge before you attack. Then you can hit them afterwards. Although this is harder too, it's possible since I've baited people's airdodges and hit them before. It was much easier to do in Melee though.

For Captain Falcon write all of his moves down on a piece of paper, put them in a hat and randomly draw them and then add knee to the end and you've got a combo. Why anyone would use a move that isn't the knee is beyond me though

 

[Sandwich]

Looks like Sakurai pulled a epic combo breaker on you guys.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Low hitstun and multiple air dodges kill most combos. In brawl, you can only combo your opponent as much as they let you. Multiple jabs + things like ganondorf's forward B > down tilt are about the only reliable ways to score more than one consecutive hit.

 

[The Executive]

Zamus: Paralyzer + *move* = combo?

 

[Rhubarbo]

Zamus: Paralyzer + *move* = combo?

That is a natural combo. It's like Mario A+A+A or Marth's Dancing Blade. Combos in Brawl kind of exist. You have to hit in the air, evade a counter attack, strike back and repeat. I can do this pretty well with Lucas, Squirtle, Charizard, and Sonic.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Fox on fast fallers.... - U-throw -> u-tilt -> u-tilt -> U-throw -> u-tilt -> U-air -> u-air


doesn't it go something like that? There were plenty of combos in melee. Some of them were really good.

That's not necessarily a surefire combo, there's potential to be tricked by your opponent's DI.

The only true combos are dair waveshine usmash/(grab uthrow uair), and it doesn't work on everyone, or infinite shine against a wall or infinte drillshine combos. Other than that, yes you can certainly combo like crazy, but it's not guaranteed, you have to dynamically predict the opponent's moves. Waveshine combos are fairly close to true combos but there is a DI element that can throw you.

I'm not saying that what you said can't be a combo, but I'm just referring to unmissable combos, like how in other fighting games combos are simply the same input every time.

 

[kico]

just do kirbies infinate hit against a wall with the computer set on control

 

[kico]

Yeah, I have now idea how they expect us to complete that 400 hit combo challenge. Are they insane?

just do kirbies infinate hit against a wall with the computer set on control

 

[House M.D.]

if you enjoy combos, play melee. if you enjoy camping/slow spacing-fests, play brawl.