Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

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Zackray's coming back with for Ultimate Wanted 4 which is first major since Kagaribi 6, as well as a bunch of other top Japanese talent.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Seeding for Smash Con 2022
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/wk593h

 

[NairWizard]

Acola dropped so the above will likely change quite a bit

 

[Sucumbio]

ESAM as well

 

[NairWizard]

We rarely talk about Doubles in here but Mkleo and Sisqui just took it over Marss and Light in pretty dominant fashion. Marss and Light are basically the strongest static team that we've ever had--I don't think they've ever been double-eliminated by a team before (maybe Lui$-Scend?). Does anyone know if they have?

 

[superjm]

We rarely talk about Doubles in here but Mkleo and Sisqui just took it over Marss and Light in pretty dominant fashion. Marss and Light are basically the strongest static team that we've ever had--I don't think they've ever been double-eliminated by a team before (maybe Lui$-Scend?). Does anyone know if they have?

I was watching this and I was quite mesmerized with the synergy between Leo and Sisqui and their characters. Samus's long, lingering multi-hit moves are the perfect setup fodder for for Pyra to intercept with her large killing aerials, and on the flipside Mythra's bevy of comboable low-knockback aerials are made even more dangerous because Samus has prime tools for "tagging in" and continuing the advantage state when Mythra is unable to extend. And it's a total headache for opponents to come in and assist because Aegis's moves are hard to punish and Samus's moves are hard to [/i]challenge.[/i]

Screw Attack in particular looks insane here. It's still one of the best get-off-me options in the entire game, made even better by it being not really punishable for obvious Doubles reasons, but it's also a perfect vertical burst option to complement how Aegis presses advantage. It ends up being both an excellent setup for Aegis and an excellent finisher following Aegis. The whole thing seemed highly reminiscent of Smash 4 double Cloud nonsense where both players' advantage states just effortlessly flow into each other.

Also this isn't a Doubles observation specifically, but I'm still astounded by how Leo recovers with Aegis. Yeah, it's no secret that Leo's recovery game is on another level above everyone else, and is a big reason why he's the clear GOAT in this game, but it's still amazing how he's able to work around Aegis's deficiencies in this area while maximizing her strengths. It outright doesn't make sense sometimes.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

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(This tier list isn't ordered)
Some top players are starting to think Sonic might be the best character in the game or in the top 5 area. I feel like we hear "X is the best in the game" every two months and it's always a different character each time at this point. First it was between Joker, Peach, Pikachu and Palutena, then Aegis, then Steve and now Sonic. Just shows how well balanced this game is I guess.

 

[The_Bookworm]

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(This tier list isn't ordered)
Some top players are starting to think Sonic might be the best character in the game or in the top 5 area. I feel like we hear "X is the best in the game" every two months and it's always a different character each time at this point. First it was between Joker, Peach, Pikachu and Palutena, then Aegis, then Steve and now Sonic. Just shows how well balanced this game is I guess.

Not entirely sure why players are suddenly saying "Sonic is top 5!" I know this isn't the first time players have had outbursts of Sonic being top 5, but each time, it feels very out of nowhere.

Don't get me wrong, Sonix and KEN are doing incredibly well with the character rn, but I doubt what they are doing indicates top 5 material, especially since KEN doesn't solo-main him anymore.

I think people are more scared of the theory behind Sonic, despite the fact that Sonic players have been doing the same thing they have been fearing since 2008.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Upset thread for SSC 2022
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/wng1ei

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Sumabato SP 29

1. acola
2. Miya
3. Kaninabe
4. Kome
5. Yaura
5. Meido
7. Ryuoh
7. Kuroponzu
9. Rarikkusu
9. Tamopio
9. YamaD
9. Kaeru
13. Omuatsu
13. Tubasuwa
13. Luminous
13. Shori
17. KR
17. syobbon
17. Moneyright
17. syumai
17. Sunea
17. Mottsuan
17. Karaage
17. sssr

 

[Kokiden]

Well... the best player in the world got steamrolled by a Steve player...

I think it really says a lot about the character despite people not wanting to think so.

Leo might not have played that well, as he said so himself, but it really does say something that he got dominated that hard.

I've never liked Steve, but this is just ridiculous. To think that we're probably going to just see more of this character in the future... that's not something I would want to see, especially when I never wanted him in the game to begin with. No more balance patches either so we're stuck like this...

 

[B_Burg]

Well... the best player in the world got steamrolled by a Steve player...

I think it really says a lot about the character despite people not wanting to think so.

Leo might not have played that well, as he said so himself, but it really does say something that he got dominated that hard.

I've never liked Steve, but this is just ridiculous. To think that we're probably going to just see more of this character in the future... that's not something I would want to see, especially when I never wanted him in the game to begin with. No more balance patches either so we're stuck like this...

Try not to get too discouraged just yet.

Something like Leo getting rolled like that is gonna put a lot of attention on Steve, not that he wasn't getting a good amount already, but hopefully that means the counterplay will be expedited as well.

It's obvious a lot of the characters from fighter pass 2 are very strong, but they are still relatively new. It'll probably be a little rough for a little while for people who really don't care for those characters playstyles.

 

[Kokiden]

Try not to get too discouraged just yet.

Something like Leo getting rolled like that is gonna put a lot of attention on Steve, not that he wasn't getting a good amount already, but hopefully that means the counterplay will be expedited as well.

It's obvious a lot of the characters from fighter pass 2 are very strong, but they are still relatively new. It'll probably be a little rough for a little while for people who really don't care for those characters playstyles.

I don't think calling the characters from FP2 relatively new is accurate tbh. They've been out for awhile now, some over a year, too.

From what I've played against him, and what I'm seeing as a spectator too, he's just playing way too differently from any other character in the game. They were very generous when then were balancing him.

Kinda hard not to feel meh about competitive when more Steve's will be coming, especially when you see scenarios like this now. I sincerely hate watching Steve.

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[superjm]

I stand by what I say earlier, people gotta stop crying and realize you can't just out-fundies the top Steve players, and MKLeo is not exempt from that assessment.

Learn the matchup.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tweek 2-3 Elegant

Tweek is eliminated at 17th.
Between this and Leo already at loser's, this tournament is getting crazy.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Kinda hard not to feel meh about competitive when more Steve's will be coming, especially when you see scenarios like this now. I sincerely hate watching Steve.

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I see this as a bad thing for steve players. The more common the character, the faster the counterplay against the character becomes.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Super Smash Con 2022
Top 8


Winner's
Onin vs Glutonny
Maister vs Light

Loser's
Riddles vs Dabuz
MkLeo vs Kola

 

[NairWizard]

Leo should unironically pick up Min Min. This is a hill I’ll die on.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Leo should unironically pick up Min Min. This is a hill I’ll die on.

Considering how much Leo hates that character, I have a feeling he'd rather quit playing Ultimate then do that.

 

[NairWizard]

I know Onin is good, and I don't want to fuel Steve-ban narratives, but it's noteworthy that Onin has no idea what he's doing in some of these matchups that he's beating top players in, convincingly. I have never seen someone play the Wario MU so badly and still beat Gluto. Onin was giving stocks away with missed techs and sloppy DI.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ladies and gentlemen, MkLeo is out at 5th.

If Maister beats Onin, he has a strong chance to win first major at last. Maister beat QD's Steve earlier, so there is a real chance at that.

 

[NairWizard]

If Maister beats Onin, he has a strong chance to win first major at last. Maister beat QD's Steve earlier, so there is a real chance at that.

There's no way anyone at this tournament beats Onin, said it before the tournament and saying it again after. My only guess was that Light could have won, so there's still a chance of that happening, but still feel like it's unlikely.

 

[Kokiden]

I stand by what I say earlier, people gotta stop crying and realize you can't just out-fundies the top Steve players, and MKLeo is not exempt from that assessment.

Learn the matchup.

Well there's that, and the character is just plain ridiculous.

Both statements can be true.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I had a bad feeling Steve's overwhelming plusses would oversurge the potential counterplay imaginable. I agree with the others that Onin is pretty much set to win SSC...and there will inevitably be a discussion over the character due to the growing disinterest and drops in viewership/interest because of the character.

Steve's design lends itself to having no real "one-size-fits-all" way to attack his MU, and that's his greatest strength, and why SSC saw a phenomenal surge of Steve this year. Personally, I think Steve lacks counterplay due to his immeasurable depth, and no amount of counterplay will stop Steve's potential from jettisoning out of control to the point where basic MU knowledge is unnecessary for the Steve player. This is a character that now fits that Bayonetta bill to a tee, a character that quite honestly might be the 2nd best character in the entire franchise (only behind Brawl MK) due to how he is as anti-balanced he is relative to the cast (Minecart is Brawl Tornado levels of disgusting, imo), and now the community has to deduce what to do.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not watching the tournament live but win or lose to Maester, Steve's really good. I think it's fair to say Aegis and Steve are top 2. Keep in mind MKLeo did just win the previous 2 tournaments with Aegis (Smash Factor 9 and COLOSSEL 2022).

 

[Kokiden]

I know Onin is good, and I don't want to fuel Steve-ban narratives, but it's noteworthy that Onin has no idea what he's doing in some of these matchups that he's beating top players in, convincingly. I have never seen someone play the Wario MU so badly and still beat Gluto. Onin was giving stocks away with missed techs and sloppy DI.

You'll still see a lot of people saying there's nothing wrong with Steve.

Already saw a multitude.

Truthfully, Steve isn't getting banned. Let's be real here. Even if top 8 was all Steve's, it's not going to happen.

 

[Rizen]

Brawl MK didn't get banned. SSB4 Bayo didn't get banned and Steve's not getting banned either. And I'm not saying he should be. No one's ban worthy. Keep in Mind Aegis has been winning tournaments just like Steve. Aegis has won more tournaments than steve. My point being: nobody says ban them.

 

[Kokiden]

I don't think Aegis is a problem unlike Steve.

She's good, if not a tad overrated, but definitely not on the same level as Steve.

But that's besides the point, since he's going to be a constant now anyway...

 

[NotLiquid]

Congratulations Maister's Sora for winning the first tournament where the Losers side Grand Finalist only needed to win once

 

[Frihetsanka]

So I've been saying for a while that no Ultimate character is close to as strong as Smash 4 Bayonetta or Smash 4 Cloud (not even Aegis, or Joker, etc). Well... Steve might just be. He's probably stronger than Smash 4 Cloud (in singles anyways, doubles Cloud was so broken), and maybe on par with or stronger than Smash 4 Bayonetta (hard to say at this point, but the signs are there).

I don't think he's getting banned anytime soon. It's too early to be talking about bans, in my opinion. Things will have to get worse before a ban would have a chance of passing. One could hope that we'll get an emergency patch to do something about Steve, though I'm not counting on it.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think Steve is a problem. There's always a new problem character in the meta, and right now, it just happens to be Steve, but people will adjust.

However, I do think it's very notable how Steve players don't really have to learn matchups. Onin in the post-game interview literally said that he did not prepare for Leo at all.

I don't think that there's ever been an Ultimate player in the last 2 years who beat Leo at a major and wasn't extensively prepared, either through coaching or VOD review. People prepare for Leo. That's how you beat him.

Was Leo playing the Steve matchup poorly? Yes, but that's the thing. Onin also plays several matchups really poorly, but he doesn't lose.

Steve players don't need it, and it's mostly because of block placement. You can actually play character matchups completely wrong as Steve and still win because a single block changes the layout of the stage and thus the matchup; if you don't like the way a particular matchup is playing out, just try a different block placement and you don't have to play it that way any more.

I don't think any other smash character, including Bayonetta in S4, has had that, so even though I'm completely against banning Steve or the notion that Steve is as good as past smash S-tiers, I have to say that I wasn't completely thrilled with today's tournament. It was difficult to watch and enjoy, for me.


The other notable, less meta observation about Steve is that minecart is reactable, but because you need to pressure Steve so that he doesn't gather resources, you need to commit in positions where minecart will no longer be reactable. So essentially Steve always has unreactable burst on you, just by fiat of existence. That's a tough thing to deal with for players who are used to winning by patient play and reaction.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Onin legit smoked everyone. Not even acola demonstrated such dominance. None of his sets to my knowledge went to final game. Maister's Sora counterpick seemed to have sparked something, but it was way too late.

If you told me anytime prior to 2019 that a character with bottom tier mobility stats, one of the worst jumps, and a below average airdodge distance, would be a best character contender, I would think you have lost your sanity. However, the dev team somehow managed to make the impossible happen.

That being said, Onin was playing at a different plane of existence today, a large leg above the other Steve players that participated. Only he and DDog cracked top 32, and DDog fell right before top 8. Onin straight up won the whole thing, beating some of the best in the business to do so.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Onin legit smoked everyone. Not even acola demonstrated such dominance. None of his sets to my knowledge went to final game. Maister's Sora counterpick seemed to have sparked something, but it was way too late.

If you told me anytime prior to 2019 that a character with bottom tier mobility stats, one of the worst jumps, and a below average airdodge distance, would be a best character contender, I would think you have lost your sanity. However, the dev team somehow managed to make the impossible happen.

That being said, Onin was playing at a different plane of existence today, a large leg above the other Steve players that participated. Only he and DDog cracked top 32, and DDog fell right before top 8. Onin straight up won the whole thing, beating some of the best in the business to do so.

MuteAce took Onin to game 5.

 

[Sucumbio]

Watching these sets it seems minecart is the roughest option to navigate. Also lol at the Sora celebration that was epic.

 

[superjm]

I had a bad feeling Steve's overwhelming plusses would oversurge the potential counterplay imaginable. I agree with the others that Onin is pretty much set to win SSC...and there will inevitably be a discussion over the character due to the growing disinterest and drops in viewership/interest because of the character.

According to who?

Seriously, is there any evidence whatsoever that Steve is directly leading to a drop in viewership/interest? Because this just all sounds like sour grapes to me.

Steve is not getting banned because he doesn't need to be banned, and no amount of crying about it from people on Twitter and Reddit is going to change that.

 

[Nekoo]

According to who?

Seriously, is there any evidence whatsoever that Steve is directly leading to a drop in viewership/interest? Because this just all sounds like sour grapes to me.

Steve is not getting banned because he doesn't need to be banned, and no amount of crying about it from people on Twitter and Reddit is going to change that.

Gluto vs Mkleo and Gluto vs Light reached 90k I think?
Dropped to 70k right after, take it as you will for Onin's match, but I can promise you it happened, Idk if it's Steve, the timezone, or whatnot, but it's the first time I saw such a drop before Grand Final-



Honestly, the tournament was quite nice, the sets were super cool...but ergh...I can't shake that feeling of Steve winning...not being right.
Idk if it's ban worthy or not, I hope we'll find a counterplay to that, but...lots of stuff we saw were wonky up to straight up stupid-
Just for the love of god guys, don't hate on Onin and let's keep it on the character

 

[Kokiden]

I don't think Steve is a problem. There's always a new problem character in the meta, and right now, it just happens to be Steve, but people will adjust.

However, I do think it's very notable how Steve players don't really have to learn matchups. Onin in the post-game interview literally said that he did not prepare for Leo at all.

I don't think that there's ever been an Ultimate player in the last 2 years who beat Leo at a major and wasn't extensively prepared, either through coaching or VOD review. People prepare for Leo. That's how you beat him.

Was Leo playing the Steve matchup poorly? Yes, but that's the thing. Onin also plays several matchups really poorly, but he doesn't lose.

Steve players don't need it, and it's mostly because of block placement. You can actually play character matchups completely wrong as Steve and still win because a single block changes the layout of the stage and thus the matchup; if you don't like the way a particular matchup is playing out, just try a different block placement and you don't have to play it that way any more.

I don't think any other smash character, including Bayonetta in S4, has had that, so even though I'm completely against banning Steve or the notion that Steve is as good as past smash S-tiers, I have to say that I wasn't completely thrilled with today's tournament. It was difficult to watch and enjoy, for me.


The other notable, less meta observation about Steve is that minecart is reactable, but because you need to pressure Steve so that he doesn't gather resources, you need to commit in positions where minecart will no longer be reactable. So essentially Steve always has unreactable burst on you, just by fiat of existence. That's a tough thing to deal with for players who are used to winning by patient play and reaction.

How can a character not needing to do any prep for any MU, can just steam roll the best player in the world with no preparation, not be a problem?

If you don't even need to try to demolish the best player in the world, and can win just by winging it... surely that says something?

 

[blackghost]

and we are back to why no fgc community takes smash community seriously. stop ******** go learn the mu.

there were 3 steves in top 32. 3. stop talking like the character ran the event start to finish. leo losing means just that leo lost doesnt make steve op.

go look at the smash con results for smash 4 and brawl. this character isnt ban-worthy. Whether or not you wanted him in the game isnt relevant.

steve is a versatile character that multiple players use but do not overlap in how they use his setups, kill power, or neutral. but there are things you can do to help fight him which many players still dont do. While smash 4 bayo was a menace the fact is many players never choose to even learn how to fight her and just whined. coming from umvc3 that is still funny to me.

for steve fighting
1. know what your options are to deal with block and block walls, and stop blindly swinging to get through them as soon as possible. if you have no game plan you have lost.
2. have your minekart speonse. this one confuses me people have been dealing with monkey flip for years yet now they saw paralyzed on how to handle this move and while not exactly the same mucho the principles of dealing with it carry over.

3. STOP STANDING BELOW AN AERIAL STEVE. unless the has no iron why are people continuously standing beneath a character's easy threat range?? unless you have a reflector ready you are just asking for anvil.

I'm no expert on fighting the character but these basics aren't being followed by nearly anyone i see fighting steve.

NairWizard saying a guy that just won an s-tier event had no idea how to win certain mu (other than maybe that sora at the end) is just salt talking and its in rather insulting to a guy that just won this event. idk why smash players feel like they should know the winner of every event aready hidden bosses winning is part of what makes fighting games great.

im sure twitter will freak out and we have to have this dumb discussion on bans again and im sure some players will stir the pot for their benefit (either subs or views pick one)
good win for Onin glad you arent on twitter it will save your mental health from these salty players.

Gluto vs Mkleo and Gluto vs Light reached 90k I think?
Dropped to 70k right after, take it as you will for Onin's match, but I can promise you it happened, Idk if it's Steve, the timezone, or whatnot, but it's the first time I saw such a drop before Grand Final-



Honestly, the tournament was quite nice, the sets were super cool...but ergh...I can't shake that feeling of Steve winning...not being right.
Idk if it's ban worthy or not, I hope we'll find a counterplay to that, but...lots of stuff we saw were wonky up to straight up stupid-
Just for the love of god guys, don't hate on Onin and let's keep it on the character

Europe favorite player and star getting knocked out would cause them to leave as well. but it really doesnt matter. followed by light getting knocked out would cause people to leave. I see mixed reviews from people on maister he wasn't repspected on this forum until rathe recently due to game and watch being whined about. Smash is different from other fgc communities smash fanbase is more about the players than the game. diago getting knocked out didnt make sfv at evo lose viewers.

project L and sf6 cant come soon enough.

 

[superjm]

Evidence is mounting that Steve may be the best character in the game, and I can imagine him being clear #1 if the Steve players refine their games even further.

But even if this ends up being the case, so what? Players are just going to have to deal with it. Learn how to play against Steve, choose a counterpick character if you have to, do whatever you need to. If that's gotta be how it's gotta be, then too bad.

Calling for the banning of a character just because they're extremely good or even the best is nonsense. This isn't a pre-patch DBZF Labcoat 21 situation where entire brackets are ruined because of the time added to the game from her insane permanent debuff, or even an ST Akuma situation where his air fireball was literally unbeatable by the rest of the cast. This isn't even a Brawl MK situation where the meta warped around him because he was arguably the only character that was allowed to play the game because the base mechanics were so limiting for the entire rest of the cast.

Steve is good. Great even. Possibly really great. And that will make some people mad. But those should not be grounds for outright banning.

 

[PK Gaming]

I don't think Steve should be banned, but let's not mince words here; he's a terribly designed character with lopsided attributes that make him infuriating to fight against

It won't just be a matter of "getting gud" to deal with (especially since Steve players will continue to get better too)

He's just going to be an overtuned element the metagame will have to deal with. It's unfortunate.