Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

What are those flaws might I ask? I don't really know enough about shulk other than the fact I seen to default to just a select few moves when I play him, and that his jab sucks.

His frame data is quite slow, making parries against him a bit stronger (and in general having slow frame data is a pretty significant flaw), he doesn't have generally super easy ways to kill outside of Smash art (which is basically telling your opponent "I'm going to fish for kills now"), overall arts tend to let your opponent know what you're going to do. Oh, and all of his arts have serious drawbacks now (in Smash 4, Buster art had had a really good risk-reward ratio, 13% more damage taken, 40% more damage given, now it's 30% more damage taken, 40% more damage given, so it's significantly riskier to use). I'm no expert on Shulk and other people might be able to add more reasons, this is what I could think of right now off the top of my head.

His strengths more than make up for his weaknesses and he's likely either a top tier or a high tier, although I'm not convinced he's a top 5 character.

 

[Aligo]

I never really thought about how the arts make him predictable like that. I suppose that is why aegis have a little less trouble, as switching is rapid so the aims can be left ambiguous in contrast.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If you want more information about Shulk this video is pretty good:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It looks fairly likely that Genesis 9 might try character before stage. I think that would be a good change since that way the winner of the previous game can't counter-pick the loser of the previous game, like acola did versus Myran.

 

[Idon]

If you want more information about Shulk this video is pretty good:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It looks fairly likely that Genesis 9 might try character before stage. I think that would be a good change since that way the winner of the previous game can't counter-pick the loser of the previous game, like acola did versus Myran.

A good change imo, no point of a counterpick if the enemy can just pull out their secondary and counterpick you instead.

 

[Trunks159]

His frame data is quite slow, making parries against him a bit stronger (and in general having slow frame data is a pretty significant flaw), he doesn't have generally super easy ways to kill outside of Smash art (which is basically telling your opponent "I'm going to fish for kills now"), overall arts tend to let your opponent know what you're going to do. Oh, and all of his arts have serious drawbacks now (in Smash 4, Buster art had had a really good risk-reward ratio, 13% more damage taken, 40% more damage given, now it's 30% more damage taken, 40% more damage given, so it's significantly riskier to use). I'm no expert on Shulk and other people might be able to add more reasons, this is what I could think of right now off the top of my head.

His strengths more than make up for his weaknesses and he's likely either a top tier or a high tier, although I'm not convinced he's a top 5 character.

I've always thought that Shulk's biggest weakness was his inability to put out big damage at any time. Buster can be avoided by fast characters, and strong but slower characters can often make it feel riskier for the Shulk in many instances.

It just feels like he has to nair and fair and grab the whole game and compared to sword characters like Lucina, Marth, Ike, Roy, and Cloud the damage output just isn't there. He alleviates this by being able to cancel a lot of damage out himself with shield and possibly surviving very late with shield and jump recoveries, but shield isn't always available and sometimes things simply don't go according to plan and he just doesn't have the explosiveness or sheer neutral control to take control of a match.

His lack of an arc-ing up air like Pyra or Marth also messes up his ability to juggle which also plays a role in his poor damage output. His best best is often fair to force an edgeguard which can work but REALLY good players are wizards at escaping edgeguard scenarios.

 

[Aligo]

Something that has always bothered me is that cloud is the fact that so much of his efficacy is tied to a single move. Back air is nearly as important to cloud as ewgf is to kazuya, where without the move being so powerful, the character would be much worse.

I feel that shulk has problems based on the same principle, as he is also balanced around a single move, this being monado arts. This results in his other moves, especially his tilts, being rather lackluster.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

What are those flaws might I ask? I don't really know enough about shulk other than the fact I seen to default to just a select few moves when I play him, and that his jab sucks.

I play Shulk. Others have talked about his horrible startup frame data (seriously, it's dreadfully bad) and his bad up air weakening his ability to juggle and, therefore, rack up damage. There's a bit more to mention.

There is little reward for landing moves other than falling aerials with Shulk. Down tilt combos into nothing and has enough end lag to let most characters jump away in retreat freely. Forward tilt is comparable to other characters' smash attacks in frame data, which makes using it a waste most of the time. Dash attack is a bit safer in exchange for being a much worse kill move, but it still doesn't lead to more damage. Shulk's bad up air makes it easy to jump away in retreat after getting hit by up tilt. Outside of buster, Shulk's one and only grab combo is down throw - forward air in jump or speed arts at very low percents, for about 10-15%.

Back slash is an awful move outside of recovering and basically means Shulk doesn't have a side b.

Shulk suffers from a syndrome I like to call "multihit moves in a smash game", in which characters fall out of multihit moves for a variety of reasons. In Shulk's case, characters will often not get hit by the second hits of his fsmash and up air, which have most of the damage and all the knockback. For fsmash, it most often happens if the character gets hit in the air. This moves already is a death sentence if it whiffs or is blocked, so it largely doesn't ever get used. For up air, if Shulk is moving too fast horizontally, the first hit won't connect into the second. Characters also will often fall out of Shulk's jab.

Shulk gets the privilege of editing the hitstun the receives on the fly using shield and smash arts. This prevents him from immediately dying every time a character touches him since otherwise his bad startup and air accelration would leave him as a punching bag. Even still, this isn't infalliable. Many characters have ways to keep the pressure on shield art Shulk. For example, at mid percents Mario's up tilt will combo into itself against shield Shulk long enough to end the art early. He can do this with up air as well. Most chracters have some move that can work like this against shield art shield Shulk. If all else fails, every character can grab shield Shulk and pummel. Receiving damage makes shield art end faster. There is no risk in going for these things against shield Shulk. His damage and knockback dealt are reduced.

I love monado arts, but I really don't think they make up for the weaknesses of the rest of his moveset. I think Shulk is a good character, but not a great one like Steve, Pyra/Mythra, Joker, etc.

 

[Sucumbio]

Very annoyed Maister got dq'd over a bouncer not letting him into the venue.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Very annoyed Maister got dq'd over a bouncer not letting him into the venue.

Racism is still prevalent in many countries sadly, including the United States. Apparently if Maister had been Canadian instead of Mexican he would've been fine... It's especially unfortunate for Maister right now since the spot as the #1 G&W is up for debate and missing out on a tournament he traveled to must feel rough, especially since Miya just won a super regional.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Wait, Maister didn't get let into a venue due to his RACE? Disgusting....

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ultimate Fighting Arena 2022 just came down.
Tea is the favorite to win this event alongside Glutonny, so it doesn't come to anyone's surprise that the two claimed 1st and 2nd, respectively.


However, do yall know who got 3rd?
HIKARU.
He used and as secondaries throughout his top 64 bracket, but he didn't win any games with the two in top 64. All games won was with DK.
He won against Leon 3-1, Glutonny 3-2, and Bloom4Eva 3-2. In winner's finals, he beat Tea's game 1, only to then lose to for the next three games. Loser's finals was a tense set vs Glutonny in which Glutonny emerged victorious 3-2.

So yeah, we got someone who placed 3rd at a major with essentially solo DK.

 

[Frihetsanka]

HIKARU.

Bloom should not have lost that set. In the second game, he somehow left Pokémon Stadium 2 open despite having three bans (and he got killed from ding-dong from the platform twice). Then, somehow for game three, when he had the counter-pick, he went to Pokémon Stadium 2 again (and again go killed by ding-dong twice). He then went to Final Destination and won easily. Game 5 was super close and Bloom was doing well but HIKARU got some nice early Donkey Kong kills. Close set.

I wonder how top players prepare for sets. Do they research which stages are good for which characters, what they can do on various stages, and so on? Or do they mostly go for what they feel like it? I can't help but feel that if Bloom had banned better and picked better the set would've ended very differently.

Unrelated to HIKARU, but Tea's Kazuya is such a delight to watch. I'm unironically glad to see more people pick up this character. Twitch chat is wrong, Kazuya is fun to watch, at least the really good Kazuya players.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Kurama showing that his performance at Ludwig Invitational was no fluke. He just best Shuton in pretty dominant fashion to get into GF winners side at Port Priority 7.

Man that 0-death to end the set was..just wow. I almost kind of forgot with all the FP2 controversy and talk that Mario is also kind of insane.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ultimate Fighting Arena 2022 just came down.
Tea is the favorite to win this event alongside Glutonny, so it doesn't come to anyone's surprise that the two claimed 1st and 2nd, respectively.


However, do yall know who got 3rd?
HIKARU.
He used and as secondaries throughout his top 64 bracket, but he didn't win any games with the two in top 64. All games won was with DK.
He won against Leon 3-1, Glutonny 3-2, and Bloom4Eva 3-2. In winner's finals, he beat Tea's game 1, only to then lose to for the next three games. Loser's finals was a tense set vs Glutonny in which Glutonny emerged victorious 3-2.

So yeah, we got someone who placed 3rd at a major with essentially solo DK.

Time to reevaluate DK then. His disadvantage state is terrible, we all know that, and he's highly exploitable, but that combo game and KO strenght seem to make it work. At least in certain matchups where the opponent isn't purely rush down it seems.

 

[blackghost]

It's been stated numerous times. The smash scene as a whole dors not counterpick stage well at all.
It's part of the reason Steve is has been such a problem beciase he takes additional knowledge to correctly stage counterpick.

While bloom picked badly vs dk allowing ps2 to be open, Hikaru also struck poorly leaving fd open.

Bayonetta vs Kazuya may be in bayo favor at the highest level however there are prob 4 or 5 bayos total that are at that level so the mu isn't relevant for Kazuya mains.

 

[Sucumbio]

Anyone know the YouTube for replays from Port Priority 7 ultimate singles if it exists?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Anyone know the YouTube for replays from Port Priority 7 ultimate singles if it exists?

The Port Priority 7 sets have not yet been uploaded to YouTube yet. Only a select few clips from a few different channels.

 

[NotLiquid]

Between Deathspade almost beating Anathema with Sora, and Zomba electing to shelve ROB entirely when fighting Kameme, that MU really looks like one of ROB's most frustrating. That doesn't seem like a distinction held lightly in this game. Looking over at Bayonetta, she'd been long been believed to do really good against ROB, and in the past everyone believed this was in spite of her being considered a weak character, but that sentiment seems to have heavily waned as of late (#25 on OrionStats, probably the highest the character's ever been). Not sure if the correlation of "good against ROB" equates to causation at this point yet because I'm not fully knowledgeable on what MUs that ROB is known to do poorly at, but it is something that's been in the back of my mind for a while.

Watching competitive Sora play I'm reminded of something Coney said about Kameme's run during Glitch Regen. Having kill confirms is such a big boon to have in Ultimate because it can compensate for so much as long as you know that there's an easy route to take a stock. As some prospective mid-tiers will likely be evidence of, it's not an entirely foolproof thing; there's a lot of variables to what makes a good character and a lot of kill confirms in this game are situational or oblique. But what's really notable about Sora is that he gets those confirms off of what's essentially some good pokes. They're not Kazuya levels of busted, but they're still really good, and he has some superb option coverage if he fails to capitalize on them. He eats up air dodges and burned double jumps like thanksgiving turkey thanks to his lingering hitboxes, dash attacks, aerials, etc.

I can't confidently claim to agree with Kameme and Tweek's takes on Sora being a top 20 character yet, but I think this plays a pivotal reason as to why the character is seeing a minor renaissance as of late. His kit is just solid, and he can kill with it pretty easily. I think he'd be a distinctly average character without his kill confirms, but having them turns him into a genuine contender at a top competitive level. It makes me wonder whether or not Ike's post-quarantine drop can be attributed to his nerfed NAir confirms harming him in the long term more than people realized, it really made life so much easier for him.

 

[Sucumbio]

So is DK faster Ike with a real grab game? I mean Wario looks like heavy meta knight and dk looks like Ike on the good stuff. Amazing set all around. Hikaru is very good.

 

[Frihetsanka]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Aligo]

Yeah, was actually awful.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Thank goodness. Behaviour like that is never ever acceptable.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

As it should be, players shouldn't be barred from a venue due to race.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

So is DK faster Ike with a real grab game? I mean Wario looks like heavy meta knight and dk looks like Ike on the good stuff. Amazing set all around. Hikaru is very good.

No. Ike in general has an easier neutral due to having a giant sword, he has a much less exploitable recovery, and has a much easier time killing if he doesn’t get early kill confirms. However DK has a much more threating advantage state compared to Ike and has more ways to get early kills. Their shield pressure is also much different, with Ike using more normals and grabbing when he is 100% sure you will shield, while DK forces you out of shield using the threat of grab and uses that to grab rolls, read spotdodges, or to hit you with an aerial, as most of his normals are quite unsafe in shield.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I am pretty sure it is one of the best specials to have ever existed in smash. It is an extra jump and horizontal movement off stage, it negates Steves only weakness, speed, on stage as it requires little comnitment and offers burst movement. With gold it is a faster, stronger wonderwing. For some reason the code is bugged and it is often not destroyed when taking over 8% damage, forcing a jump or dodge, putting the over player in a bad position. It also leads to early kill confirms, so God forbid you are a slow masher. Other than costing resources, the move has no downsides. I am having a very hard time thinking of a side special better than minecart. Without the move Steve would have a much harder time both approaching and recovering.

Doesn't matter if you mash fast a lot of the time since you're locked in place unable to do anything for quite a while after mashing out of it. That's one of it's more blatantly overpowered properties imo.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Doesn't matter if you mash fast a lot of the time since you're locked in place unable to do anything for quite a while after mashing out of it. That's one of it's more blatantly overpowered properties imo.

Do you know the exact frame data on it? I can't find it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Another Shockwave done, this time with Kazuya banned.

Some information: Shockwave 129 had 50 entrants, 130 had 55 entrants, 131 had 68 entrants (Halloween edition, players in-costume got "free venue" apparently, so they only had to pay the singles fee).

And then they announced the "No Neutral November" theme. 132, which banned all of Fighter Pass 2, had 91 entrants. 133, which banned Steve, had 67 entrants. 134, which banned Kazuya, had 60 entrants. Note that entry was free for mains of the characters banned. Based on this (very limited) data, it seems to me that 132 was a bit of an outlier (likely due to the hype), and that banning characters would likely not significantly increase attendance rate. Banning a character just to go from 55 entrants to 60 entrants or something like that doesn't seem close to worth it, and long term it's not like they'd let former Kazuya/Steve/FP2 pass mains enter tournaments for free.

November 23 will try banning both Kazyua and Steve, and November 30 all DLC will be banned. So far, it seems like banning characters doesn't significantly increase attendance (I imagine Shockwave 132 was an outlier). "These characters should be banned in order to save our scene" doesn't really work if it only increases attendance with 5-10%.

 

[Sucumbio]

I guess we'll see once they've all run but I'm agreed so far. If the all dlc banned has similar numbers to dlc pack 2 banned then it could indicate a reluctance at least in that region to competing against those who main DLC/2 characters. Then again being the first and last events of the experiment could skew higher due to hype or curiosity.

 

[Arthur97]

If you need a large sample size to prove bans work, shouldn't you also need a large one to prove they don't?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Seeding for Apex and Dreamhack Atlanta

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Seeding for Apex and Dreamhack Atlanta

Huh, amongst all these players only one uses pokemon trainer. Has pokemon trainer use dropped off recently? Have the results been bad with them?

 

[Frihetsanka]

What happened to needing a larger sample size?

I did mention that the data is very limited, but regardless, it's reasonable to assume that people are most likely to attend more at the beginning of the experiment if they want to support a ban. I suppose one could argue that Kazuya/Steve mains would have incentive to skip such tournaments but I'm not sure if they actually did? yonni seems to have attended, although I suspect if his locals permanently ban Steve but Steve is still legal at majors yonni might just stop attending locals and focus on other tournaments/online practice instead. Long term, the increase in attendants might be low, it's even possible that attendants might decrease.

I think that in order to justify a ban from a "This character scares people away" perspective, the gains in attendance has to be really significant. Like, imagine if banning Luigi would triple attendance. While normally Luigi isn't a character that should be banned, in such a scenario it might be justifiable to ban him for your locals. Such a scenario is unrealistic though and it's unlikely that any character ban would significantly increase attendance. As such, I don't think attendance should be much of a factor when considering a character ban.

As a rule of thumb, character bans in fighting games should be incredibly rare. It does happen occasionally, but it's super rare.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Huh, amongst all these players only one uses pokemon trainer. Has pokemon trainer use dropped off recently? Have the results been bad with them?

DDee has a Pokemon Trainer secondary. But tbf, Atelier dropped PT for solo Wolf and Quidd is as inactive as ever. In any case, they're #22 on OrionStats (which is still good) but this is the lowest they've ever been.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

DDee has a Pokemon Trainer secondary. But tbf, Atelier dropped PT for solo Wolf and Quidd is as inactive as ever. In any case, they're #22 on OrionStats (which is still good) but this is the lowest they've ever been.

It's not exactly surprising, juggling 3 different characters with different ways they attack, recover, and take hits is mentally exhausting. I'll bet other players who main a solo character prefer one that doesn't change so completely....even the Aegis only has you juggle two characters, not three.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Aegis only has you juggle two characters, not three.

Plus they have pretty similar moves, which makes it easier compared to PT who all have pretty different move uses and hitboxes.

 

[Aligo]

Yeah the Pokémon are stronger individually, but don't mesh together as well. If you really vibe with one, you are less likely to vibe with the others.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah the Pokémon are stronger individually, but don't mesh together as well. If you really vibe with one, you are less likely to vibe with the others.

I actually think the opposite. Pokemon Trainer is as strong as he is because of the tag mechanic allowing to play entire different character archetypes. The problem is that the Pokemon themselves are definitely not top tier material.

• Squirtle is a simplified version of Sheik with less KO confirms but with a small hurtbox. The character in terms of solo viability definitely functions the best of the three, but unfortunately is still toned down in many ways in comparison to its Brawl-self, most notably in KO power.
• Ivysaur really shines when attached to Pokemon Trainer, but unfortunately isn't too great of a character by itself thanks to its frame data being lackluster in some areas and its mobility not being very good in general, while possessing the weakest up B tether recovery in the game.
• Charizard is your standard superheavy, once again functioning the best by being attached to Pokemon Trainer. It is very mobile, have high reach in certain moves, and great KO potential, but unfortunately suffers from a lot of the same issues other superheavies struggle with. The character was not very good in SSB4, and despite being buffed overall imo (after updates), it still suffers from a lot of the same issues as the previous game.

 

[Aligo]

Good points, I didn't think about it like that.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I actually think the opposite. Pokemon Trainer is as strong as he is because of the tag mechanic allowing to play entire different character archetypes. The problem is that the Pokemon themselves are definitely not top tier material.

• Squirtle is a simplified version of Sheik with less KO confirms but with a small hurtbox. The character in terms of solo viability definitely functions the best of the three, but unfortunately is still toned down in many ways in comparison to its Brawl-self, most notably in KO power.
• Ivysaur really shines when attached to Pokemon Trainer, but unfortunately isn't too great of a character by itself thanks to its frame data being lackluster in some areas and its mobility not being very good in general, while possessing the weakest up B tether recovery in the game.
• Charizard is your standard superheavy, once again functioning the best by being attached to Pokemon Trainer. It is very mobile, have high reach in certain moves, and great KO potential, but unfortunately suffers from a lot of the same issues other superheavies struggle with. The character was not very good in SSB4, and despite being buffed overall imo (after updates), it still suffers from a lot of the same issues as the previous game.

I actually would argue that squirtle is middle of the ground when it comes to the pokemon in regards to solo viability. It doesn't matter if it has the smallest hurtbox when not only does it have the shortest reach of the three pokemon of pokemon trainer, but also has the same weight as kirby, making it easy to swat it away, especially when it can't seal a stock, which is the entire point of the game. It doesn't have a stage spike, unlike Ivysaur or Charizard, and it certainly doesn't have a way to kill early or easily, allowing the opponent to build up rage and kill Squirtle in a single attack. He can rack up damage easily but he doesn't have a move like Diddy Kong which can trip up their opponent, or Ness and Lucas which have the same sized hurtboxes but better weight and reach. In fact I'd argue that Charizard is better as a solo viable option because of the myriad of ways he can kill early while also surviving long enough to get those kills. It doesn't matter how small your hurtbox is if you get killed in one strike. Ness and Lucas have proved that from their results.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah the Pokémon are stronger individually, but don't mesh together as well. If you really vibe with one, you are less likely to vibe with the others.

The very reason Pokemon Trainer is successful in this game is because you can switch to whatever Pokemon fits the situation best.

You don't have to fish for kills as Squirtle, recover as Ivysaur, or rack up damage as Charizard. They're a team that cover each other's weaknesses.

If you want a basic gameplan...

Squirtle lets you build up damage at the start of a stock.
Ivysaur let's you kill when the opponent's percentage is high.
Charizard let's you survive when your percentage is high.

Look, I've been a Pokemon Trainer main since Brawl (mained Charizard in 4). You can't make any of these Pokemon have competitive success if they were on their own (without completely overhauling them like in PM, but at that point you have a completely different character). They're too polarized. The changes to switching really made this character shine.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The very reason Pokemon Trainer is successful in this game is because you can switch to whatever Pokemon fits the situation best.

You don't have to fish for kills as Squirtle, recover as Ivysaur, or rack up damage as Charizard. They're a team that cover each other's weaknesses.

If you want a basic gameplan...

Squirtle lets you build up damage at the start of a stock.
Ivysaur let's you kill when the opponent's percentage is high.
Charizard let's you survive when your percentage is high.

Look, I've been a Pokemon Trainer main since Brawl (mained Charizard in 4). You can't make any of these Pokemon have competitive success if they were on their own (without completely overhauling them like in PM, but at that point you have a completely different character). They're too polarized. The changes to switching really made this character shine.

Like you, I've also used pokemon trainer since brawl and used Charizard in 4 and you explained it better (and in such simple terms!) than I ever could have.