Competitive Smash consumer action

[Paradoxium]

I guess it turns out Bleck really is ****ing ********, oh well....

 

[Bleck]

hey like I know you care a whole lot about videogames but you should probably abstain from insulting people with offensive slurs

 

[Paradoxium]

hey like I know you care a whole lot about videogames but you should probably abstain from insulting people with offensive slurs

doooooon't caaaaaaaare

 

[hype machine]

I guess it turns out Bleck really is ****ing ********, oh well....

I remember when I was like you, i remember it as if it were only yesterday. Someone started a debate on smash 4 vs melee on the wrong topic, I tried to talk sense to him but he wouldn't listen, in the end I looked back in my comments only to find myself sounding like a melee extremist and a lack of likes.

 

[Paradoxium]

I remember when I was like you, i remember it as it was only yesterday. Someone started a debate on smash 4 vs melee on the wrong topic, I tried to talk sense to him but he wouldn't listen, in the end I looked back in my comments only to find myself sounding like a melee extremist and a lack of likes.

I don't play melee, and I don't care about likes. Yea I acted dumb. But I don't care about that either its the internet lol. this tpye of argument is hella mellow compared to some other internet debates lol. Like don't get me started on politics people tear each other up over that stuff

it just kidna ticked me off how he states nonsense and then covers his ears and goes "IM NOT LISTENING IM NOT LISTENING!"

and don't like those 2 comments, it will make you seem like an asshole

 

[hype machine]

I don't play melee, and I don't care about likes. Yea I acted dumb. But I don't care about that either its the internet lol. this tpye of argument is hella mellow compared to some other internet debates lol. Like don't get me started on politics people tear each other up over that stuff

it just kidna ticked me off how he states nonsense and then covers his ears and goes "IM NOT LISTENING IM NOT LISTENING!"

and don't like those 2 comments, it will make you seem like an *******

He is ******** though, this isn't his first time starting **** on pm boards either. Yea he did something similar to me as well where he corrects my spelling instead. Good **** though I laughed so hard at class when you said "and donnntttt carrreee"

 

[Bleck]

it just kidna ticked me off how he states nonsense and then covers his ears and goes "IM NOT LISTENING IM NOT LISTENING!"

your problem is that your argument for why something is/isn't true is evidence that consists of the habits of players in the 99th percentile of skill level

saying that shields are worth something in Melee and your proof being that a dozen or so professional players have the reaction time and experience required to pull off complicated and physically-precise OoS options is stupid; the only response I can make to that is that emergent gameplay patterns like that are bad for video games, at which point you or some other poster is going to say that anything that separates people from "casuals" is a good thing, at which point I point out again (and again and again) that the idea of "casuals" is inherently faulty and doesn't magically give your argument any merit

if at any point your argument for why something should or should not be, in a game design capacity, is to vaguely refer to matches of professional players playing a game, then no, I don't care, and what you're saying is irrelevant in every meaningful capacity

 

[Paradoxium]

your problem is that your argument for why something is/isn't true is evidence that consists of the habits of players in the 99th percentile of skill level

saying that shields are worth something in Melee and your proof being that a dozen or so professional players have the reaction time and experience required to pull off complicated and physically-precise OoS options is stupid; the only response I can make to that is that emergent gameplay patterns like that are bad for video games, at which point you or some other poster is going to say that anything that separates people from "casuals" is a good thing, at which point I point out again (and again and again) that the idea of "casuals" is inherently faulty and doesn't magically give your argument any merit

if at any point your argument for why something should or should not be, in a game design capacity, is to vaguely refer to matches of professional players playing a game, then no, I don't care, and what you're saying is irrelevant in every meaningful capacity

You only need frame perfect oos options against frame perfect shield pressure. If you arent playing against the 99th percentile then you don't need that caliber of skill.

even then it is safer to respect shields than to pressure them

 

[Bleck]

You only need frame perfect oos options

doing something out of shield is a frame perfect action

 

[Paradoxium]

doing something out of shield is a frame perfect action

Um, im not to sure about that. different characters have different jump squats, and I'm sure you want to cancel on the earliest frames possible. But against lackluster shield pressure you don't have too.

Also aerials out of shield, you want to activate the attack as early as possible, but you don't have to against faulty shield pressure.

And shield grabs, you just have to wait for the right moment to grab.

I dont think any option out of shield is always frame perfect, except for maybe the jump cancelled options. but shield grabbing and rolling and aerials arent

 

[Bleck]

Um, im not to sure about that. different characters have different jump squats, and I'm sure you want to cancel on the earliest frames possible.

the longest pre-jump animation in Melee is Bowser's with 8 frames, and in Brawl, Snake's with 9 - doing something in a window that small is still fairly difficult, and it only gets more difficult as the window gets smaller

 

[Paradoxium]

the longest pre-jump animation in Melee is Bowser's with 8 frames, and in Brawl, Snake's with 9 - doing something in a window that small is still fairly difficult, and it only gets more difficult as the window gets smaller

but you dont need to do something that difficult unless your opponent's shield pressure is at that level.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think I understand your point

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't think I understand your point

My point is that really difficult oos options are only necessary against really difficult shield pressure. If your using low levelled shield pressure, then there is no reason for your opponent to have to do frame perfect oos options.

saying that shields are worth something in Melee and your proof being that a dozen or so professional players have the reaction time and experience required to pull off complicated and physically-precise OoS options is stupid

I'm pretty much responding to this, and saying that no, you don't need to pull off complicated and physically-precise OoS options at all levels of play.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Saying that out of shield options are hard is the same as saying doing the same action outside of a shield a hard. The only difference is that you were holding shield before.

I'm not sure how well you remember melee, but shields are an efficient defensive option there. Against "frame perfect shield pressure" (there's no such thing as a reliable true blockstring in melee) you just hold the c-stick to buffer a roll away if you know your opponent is gonna keep pressuring you, situation reseted. A small number of moves being poorly balanced against shields does not negate the value of that option in the general gameplay.

The thing about melee shield that people like is that you are safe if you space your moves properly, you won't pressure a shield with that space between you and the shield, but you avoid retaliation and guarantee a position. In 4, if you hit a shield you're usually unsafe, regardless of the spacing as you can simply drop your shield dash forward and grab or dash attack. That alone makes approaching the that game much less effective and elevates grabs to a powerful position in the neutral game, making characters with grab combos significantly better than the rest and spacing based characters have a weaker neutral game.

Not to mention moves with hitlag multipliers, they do not effect shieldstun, making them even more unsafe.

 

[Bleck]

Saying that out of shield options are hard is the same as saying doing the same action outside of a shield a hard.

nnno it's not?

 

[standardtoaster]

This is not a Melee vs Smash 4 thread. Keep all of those arguments out of here. Please get back on topic. I really do not want to lock this thread unless I have to.

 

[PlateProp]

This is the part where everyone just puts Bleck on their ignore list, and revels in the fact that it takes away all his fun

 

[FireBall Stars]

nnno it's not?

Can you please elaborate on how doing a Usmash out of shield for example is different from doing a normal Usmash with A and the analog stick when both are cancelling a jump action to work.

Although I have the strong impression you don't really care enough to do that and is just having fun on the internet, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Bleck]

Can you please elaborate on how doing a Usmash out of shield for example is different from doing a normal Usmash with A and the analog stick when both are cancelling a jump action to work.

if you assume that the player is using the control stick to do smash attacks, and if you assume that the player still has tap jump enabled, then doing an up smash out of shield still requires that the player necessarily input Up before the attack button but also before the pre-jump animation ends, which not all players are used to and/or even capable of doing

 

[hype machine]

Plz don't ignore bleck what if someone else get in an argument with him. Poor guy is going to look like a fool

 

[PlateProp]

Plz don't ignore bleck what if someone else get in an argument with him. Poor guy is going to look like a fool

Bleck making a fool of himself is nothing new

 

[FireBall Stars]

I'm sorry if this sounds rude or even elistist, it is not my intention, but I have to be honest here with you Bleck. It just seems to me that you don't really understand very well the matters and context that you're trying to convey opinions about.

For the sake of not derailing the thread further, it might be best for me to stop trying to convince you, I see no harm of you retaining your own opinions, as I'm sure they will change due to time and experience invested in the games you wish to know more of.

Also if my post sounds way too formal, english is not my first language, I feel more comfortable with that kind of wording when I talk on forums.

 

[Bleck]

I'm sorry if this sounds rude or even elistist, it is not my intention, but I have to be honest here with you Bleck. It just seems to me that you don't really understand very well the matters and context that you're trying to convey opinions about.

For the sake of not derailing the thread further, it might be best for me to stop trying to convince you, I see no harm of you retaining your own opinions, as I'm sure they will change due to time and experience invested in the games you wish to know more of.

Also if my post sounds way too formal, english is not my first language, I feel more comfortable with that kind of wording when I talk on forums.

no worries bro

 

[hype machine]

no worries bro

Looking back at it, you're not a completely terrible person after all.In fact this isn't how we should be treating our guest at all. Maybe we all got on the wrong foot, I think smash 4 is borderline viable for evo while I still perfer melee's engine over smash 4s. You can think the other way around and I wouldn't really care. But you see, this is the pm boards and when you bring in your opinions about how smash 4 is a viable game you're going to get **** on. It's not that we hate you, we just disagree with you. Pm board is at fault too, for taking the easy bait, we should know better

 

[Paradoxium]

I said smash 4 was good for competitive play fyi, It's good for the community

 

[hype machine]

I said smash 4 was good for competitive play fyi, It's good for the community

That's awesome even people from the pm community have different opinions, also I speed type all the messages I have been typing so far been busy with college/homework so a lot of the things I type aren't 100% perfect

 

[hype machine]

Also if you thought I was calling you out by taking the bait. I wasn't we ALL fell for it the dude is probably laughing about it now. By all This includes myself, missingno, pm developers ect. . Even Red Ryu thought the guy was nuts (smash 4 elietist). That's why you never hear from him after pg 3 anymore

 

[Bleck]

But you see, this is the pm boards and when you bring in your opinions about how smash 4 is a viable game you're going to get **** on.

I know you're relatively new here but like my schtick is that I'm usually pretty uppity about stuff that's like "this is good because that's how it was in Melee" because I think that the attitude makes the PMDT more oriented towards questionable design choices

I defend Smash 4 a lot, but usually it's 'cause I believe that a lot of things Smash 4 did right are also things that I think PM should do (I don't think that shields necessarily need to be buffed in PM, for example, but I do think there's a lot of bias towards making the metagame as favorable as possible to spacies and such)

also how this relates to the topic is that I really don't feel like writing a letter to Sakurai (one of the most successful game designers in the world) to tell him that he's bad at designing videogames and citing a bunch of crappy criticisms of Smash 4 as evidence is a good idea - if you're gonna tell Sakurai he doesn't know what he's doing, at least have good reasons (of which I'm not entirely sure there are any)

and if you're (not you specifically but you as in the reader) feel as though we shouldn't actually criticize or discuss any of the things that would go on a letter to him, then like I'm pretty sure that letter's not gonna be all that great

 

[MegaMissingno]

I know you're relatively new here but like my schtick is that I'm usually pretty uppity about stuff that's like "this is good because that's how it was in Melee" because I think that the attitude makes the PMDT more oriented towards questionable design choices

But not one person in this thread has ever said anything like that, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

I think he means in general, not just this thread

 

[MegaMissingno]

I rarely if ever hear anyone say that anywhere. I only hear it from the opposition making up strawmen. And either way, if nobody in this thread has said it, then it's irrelevant to this thread. So why bring it up here?

 

[Bleck]

lol strawmen

 

[MegaMissingno]

You made up an argument nobody here had said and then attacked that instead of the things they actually were saying. That's the definition of a strawman.

 

[Bleck]

lol strawmen

 

[Deleted member]

Smash4 would be much more enjoyable if it was simply faster paced. Reducing aerial lag, reducing the potency of shields, reducing the easy-mode recovery by getting rid of ledge stealing and reducing the ledge snapping window, make characters fall a bit faster, increasing hitstun, and conserving momentum from run to jump are all changes to the game that do not require any competitive knowledge whatsoever on the part of the player and therefore do not detract from the casual experience. Advanced techniques, wavedashing, L-canceling, and shines are not the only ways to increase the speed of the game.

The idea that casual = slow is the problem. Casuals will enjoy the game as long as it has all their favorite characters and cool modes and crazy items and nice graphics and (most importantly) simple controls. Making the game faster for the competitive players will not hurt sales as long as those things stay. Will it necessarily result in the same competitive following as Melee? Perhaps not, but I can guarantee you the criticisms of Smash4 from would significantly diminish if the game was simply faster.

 

[hype machine]

I would also like to say melee was enjoyed by both casuals and competetive players, it also sold more than any other GameCube game. It got a lot of good reviews. You should put that in the letter. Also me saying sakurai is a bad game designer was just being salty, i think he wanted to make the game more casual because of how much the wii sold when it was geared towards casual gaming. But I think the wii was huge success only because of its motion control gimmick.

 

[hype machine]

I know you're relatively new here but like my schtick is that I'm usually pretty uppity about stuff that's like "this is good because that's how it was in Melee" because I think that the attitude makes the PMDT more oriented towards questionable design choices

I defend Smash 4 a lot, but usually it's 'cause I believe that a lot of things Smash 4 did right are also things that I think PM should do (I don't think that shields necessarily need to be buffed in PM, for example, but I do think there's a lot of bias towards making the metagame as favorable as possible to spacies and such)

also how this relates to the topic is that I really don't feel like writing a letter to Sakurai (one of the most successful game designers in the world) to tell him that he's bad at designing videogames and citing a bunch of crappy criticisms of Smash 4 as evidence is a good idea - if you're gonna tell Sakurai he doesn't know what he's doing, at least have good reasons (of which I'm not entirely sure there are any)

and if you're (not you specifically but you as in the reader) feel as though we shouldn't actually criticize or discuss any of the things that would go on a letter to him, then like I'm pretty sure that letter's not gonna be all that great

The reason why people wanted smash 4 to be more like melee is because it was a success for casuals and competitive players. The fact that it's still being played for 14 years and had to go through many obstacles is incredible. We also don't want to mess with shields because the game is already perfect to us, you don't fix what isn't broken, also many top melee players say shield is really good in the game and isn't respected as much as it should. None of us actually want the letter to be a hate letter, I think the letter should be more about trying to open his mind, rather then to critique his development skills, as he might find it offensive

 

[Bleck]

Smash4 would be much more enjoyable if it was simply faster paced. Reducing aerial lag, reducing the potency of shields, reducing the easy-mode recovery by getting rid of ledge stealing and reducing the ledge snapping window, make characters fall a bit faster, increasing hitstun, and conserving momentum from run to jump are all changes to the game that do not require any competitive knowledge whatsoever on the part of the player and therefore do not detract from the casual experience.

see, again, the problem is that people keep talking about what "casuals" want as though they're a separate entity from themselves, and then simultaneously arguing that they know what "casuals" care about

if you think that Sakurai is developing the game for a different audience that you're not a part of, it's unreasonable to subsequently imply that you're a part of that audience or that you understand what it wants - it's really easy for you to pretend that "casuals" don't understand the game or how it works or what they want from it, and that's probably why Sakurai doesn't give a damn about people like you think

also: bolded in the quote are changes in Smash 4 that were brought about by complaints from everybody who plays Smash - the game wasn't just changed as a big "**** you" to competitive players, it was changed to keep significant criticisms (from everybody) of previous games in mind (i.e most Smash players think edgehogging is lame as heck)

The reason why people wanted smash 4 to be more like melee is because it was a success for casuals and competitive players. The fact that it's still being played for 14 years and had to go through many obstacles is incredible.

it was a success for both "kinds" of players, yes - and then the "casuals" moved on to Brawl and subsequently to Smash 4, and the problem here is that everyone tends to assume that the "casuals" just don't care about mechanics changes from game to game whereas in reality they tend to, oh wow, actually have opinions and experience with the video games that they choose to play

there's a lot of people who don't go to tournaments and don't play PM and don't know about l-canceling and wavedashing and etc. who just plain don't like Melee as much as later games because it's too fast or because the recoveries are less good or because shielding feels like a waste of time or etc. etc.

basically what it boils down to is everyone's primary claim is that "casuals won't care if the game is designed how we want it" and the problem with that is that it's just plain not true, and like I already said in the first post I made in this topic, expecting Sakurai to cater to a hilariously small group of people (that consistently insults him) to the detriment of the experience for everyone else who plays the game is just plain folly

 

[MegaMissingno]

No matter how much some people whine about edgehogging, making ledge snaps just 100% guaranteed all the time is far worse. Way I see it, edgehogging is a necessary evil and a vital check on the recovery game, because it forces the recovering player to think about whether they should go for the ledge or stage. Now they can just go to the ledge always no problem. That's stupid.