Competitive Smash consumer action

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well that's a bit of a stretch.

Melee gameplay =/= every single thing from melee

Those were common complaints I heard from casual players.

 

[JCOnyx]

You think they like not grabbing the ledge backwards? Falling like a rock? The camera not following someone on stage when they are hit hard?

To be fair, what platforming games have you played before that let you grab ledges backwards? I've never seen that in a reputable platformer because it just doesn't make sense.

I've also played Mega Man since I was like 3, so I'm used to falling like a rock lol.

 

[JOE!]

Those were common complaints I heard from casual players.

Sure, but they are also not super essential to the melee gameplay. Simply better movement all around (like momentum carried from the ground to jumps) and more meaningful or dynamic offense (and offstage) wouldn't phase casual players

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sure, but they are also not super essential to the melee gameplay. Simply better movement all around (like momentum carried from the ground to jumps) and more meaningful or dynamic offense (and offstage) wouldn't phase casual players

Obviously it was at some point to make some characters and elements exactly the same and readd bad game design like L-Cancelling.

Some of these elements will affect casuals, the offense or carrying momentum? Sure it would't that much but a lot of common complaints I see from casuals are what I have said.

They didn't like Melee or PM when I've tried it with them over smash 4 or Brawl.

And these are groups of up to 40+ I've helped people organize for.

 

[equationcrunchor]

As a "filthy casual" myself , I play Project M instead of Brawl and the physics don't bother me at all. Yes, the game is slightly harder, but if you want hilarious matches, getting cheap kills off of edgeguarding or falling to your death attempting to edgeguard is much better than random tripping. I haven't played Brawl in a year.

Edit: A good way to get casuals like my friend on the boat is add insane amounts of custom textures. Everyone wants to play as Dave Strider.

 

[Bleck]

To be fair, what platforming games have you played before that let you grab ledges backwards?

super smash bros isn't a platformer

 

[JCOnyx]

super smash bros isn't a platformer

It's a platform fighter lol. At least that's the general consensus.

 

[MegaMissingno]

You think they like not grabbing the ledge backwards? Falling like a rock? The camera not following someone on stage when they are hit hard?

That has nothing to do with any of what I was saying.

 

[StarshipGroove]

What if the next Smash game was highly competitive but played nothing like Melee?

:O

It's certainly possible to make a game that's both accessible to casual players and competitive play, while being a fresh new take on Smash... but would the die-hard competitive players accept it, or would they complain about anything that didn't function like Melee?

As for smash-like games, Air Dash Online looked promising, but alas it didn't star Mario so it never took off

 

[Bleck]

What if the next Smash game was highly competitive but played nothing like Melee?

smash 4 is already out

 

[Paquito]

Some of these elements will affect casuals, the offense or carrying momentum? Sure it would't that much but a lot of common complaints I see from casuals are what I have said.

What's the context of these "complaints from casuals"? The second someone starts complaining about the "momentum carried from the ground to jumps", I'm not sure I'd be calling this person a casual player.

 

[Saikyoshi]

As much as I like PM, I'm going to disagree as I still have faith in 4's competitive viability and, as a matter of fact, prefer its pace both in watching and playing. The problem I personally have with things being too fast is that I can hardly see what's going on. Which isn't good considering I'm talking about being a spectator, an activity which requires being able to tell what you're looking at. And I'm not the only person who has this view.

I'm not asking PM to change, because except for four small things that I will not discuss right now, it's a good game. But Smash 4 does pay some attention to competitive play, as the extensive combos and mindgames that I've both seen and experienced firsthand have to testify.

 

[StarshipGroove]

smash 4 is already out

That's funny because I almost mentioned Smash 4 being a fine competitive game, but wanted to bait you

master trole :^)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That has nothing to do with any of what I was saying.

It has everything to do with it.

What's the context of these "complaints from casuals"? The second someone starts complaining about the "momentum carried from the ground to jumps", I'm not sure I'd be calling this person a casual player.

I mentioned the main three I heard.

As much as I like PM, I'm going to disagree as I still have faith in 4's competitive viability and, as a matter of fact, prefer its pace both in watching and playing. The problem I personally have with things being too fast is that I can hardly see what's going on. Which isn't good considering I'm talking about being a spectator, an activity which requires being able to tell what you're looking at. And I'm not the only person who has this view.

I'm not asking PM to change, because except for four small things that I will not discuss right now, it's a good game. But Smash 4 does pay some attention to competitive play, as the extensive combos and mindgames that I've both seen and experienced firsthand have to testify.

The game has a lot of stuff people haven't been trying or testing out as much.

The more it develops the more it will change for he better.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Did you even read my post?

Nice generalizations. All I'm asking for is something that's a little faster, has more mobility, and is nowhere near as defensive as Smash 4. I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4. And I don't believe any of what I'm asking for would suddenly drive casual players away.

I specifically said it does NOT have to be like Melee. Just fix the problems with how defensive Smash 4 is, like the complete lack of shieldstun. So why are you suddenly bringing Melee mechanics back up and claiming that has anything to do with what I just said I'm not talking about?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Did you even read my post?

I specifically said it does NOT have to be like Melee. Just fix the problems with how defensive Smash 4 is, like the complete lack of shieldstun. So why are you suddenly bringing Melee mechanics back up and claiming that has anything to do with what I just said I'm not talking about?

It does though, people are not as bothered by that issue in smash 4, which even isn't that bad when you consider how much stronger empty short hops are now if we go the comp route.

What I listed are issues with a melee engine that I know players told me outright they did not like.

 

[JOE!]

What I listed are issues with a melee engine that I know players told me outright they did not like.

Right, but then I dont think anybody asked for those ones specifically. What's wrong with wanting the "good" parts of melee and Smash4, while ignoring the bad/questionable ones?

 

[MegaMissingno]

What part of "I'm not talking about Melee" don't you understand?

 

[GrandHc]

Right, but then I dont think anybody asked for those ones specifically. What's wrong with wanting the "good" parts of melee and Smash4, while ignoring the bad/questionable ones?

With this question, I think we should as a community try and find the "good" and "bad"within the games to come to a compromise if we want to present them to developers. A coalition of organized voices is needed for a project like this.

 

[Saikyoshi]

With this question, I think we should as a community try and find the "good" and "bad"within the games to come to a compromise if we want to present them to developers. A coalition of organized voices is needed for a project like this.

If there's one thing any group of Super Smash Bros. fans isn't, it's organized. What exactly would we consider the "good parts" and the "bad parts"?

I know there was a rant in this part before. I edited it out.

 

[equationcrunchor]

What's the context of these "complaints from casuals"? The second someone starts complaining about the "momentum carried from the ground to jumps", I'm not sure I'd be calling this person a casual player.

Sonic running jumps are good. GOTTA AIR FAST

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Right, but then I dont think anybody asked for those ones specifically. What's wrong with wanting the "good" parts of melee and Smash4, while ignoring the bad/questionable ones?

The main thing I would want back from Melee is wavedashing and maybe slightly better combo potential from Melee, just not to ridiculous level or ones where it gets degenerate.

Depending on the aspect I would argue the rest could be debatable.

What part of "I'm not talking about Melee" don't you understand?

"Project M aka Project Melee"

 

[MegaMissingno]

I didn't say anything about PM.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I didn't say anything about PM.

Then what are you even talking about?

 

[MegaMissingno]

I'm talking about problems with Smash 4. Y'know, what this whole thread was about? I don't know where the hell you're getting anything else from, especially when I made it loud and clear that I'm not talking about Melee or any other game.

All I'm asking for is something that's a little faster, has more mobility, and is nowhere near as defensive as Smash 4. I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm talking about problems with Smash 4. Y'know, what this whole thread was about? I don't know where the hell you're getting anything else from, especially when I made it loud and clear that I'm not talking about Melee or any other game.

You were the one who addressed what I thought was the core issue, that people had direct and unrealistic expectations that won't be addressed because I know for a fact for many players it is "Melee like or go home"

Which is the truth.

 

[MegaMissingno]

What? How the hell do you go from "I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4" to "Melee like or go home"? What more do I have to say to make it clear to you that I'm not asking for Melee? How can I spell it out better that'll get the point through to you?

It seriously pisses me off to no end to hear that crap. It's like nobody's ever allowed to voice any sort of criticism of Smash 4 whatsoever without "oh you just want Melee" being the immediate response every damn time. No, that's not even close to anything I'm saying at all, please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What? How the hell do you go from "I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4" to "Melee like or go home"? What more do I have to say to make it clear to you that I'm not asking for Melee? How can I spell it out better that'll get the point through to you?

It seriously pisses me off to no end to hear that crap. It's like nobody's ever allowed to voice any sort of criticism of Smash 4 whatsoever without "oh you just want Melee" being the immediate response every damn time. No, that's not even close to anything I'm saying at all, please stop putting words in my mouth.

I never put words in your mouth.

I told you directly what I thought the issue was and you assumed such. I remain that to be the main issue.

 

[MegaMissingno]

You said I'm saying "Melee like or go home". Even though I've repeatedly said the exact opposite god knows how many times. That is not the main issue I'm talking about. What more can I say to make that clear?

****, you're the guy who just outright said wavedashing should be brought back. Yet for me to merely say I don't like Smash 4's shields, that's so absurd it's tantamount to me saying "Melee like or go home"? That's where the line is drawn?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You said I'm saying "Melee like or go home". Even though I've repeatedly said the exact opposite god knows how many times. That is not the main issue I'm talking about. What more can I say to make that clear?

****, you're the guy who just outright said wavedashing should be brought back. Yet for me to merely say I don't like Smash 4's shields, that's so absurd it's tantamount to me saying "Melee like or go home"? That's where the line is drawn?

I never said such. Ever.

The only people really dissatisfied are die hard Melee-like must be this or nothing else.

Overall and in sales, people love Smash 4.

Some would.

And moving backwards is not always progress.

Nice generalizations. All I'm asking for is something that's a little faster, has more mobility, and is nowhere near as defensive as Smash 4. I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4. And I don't believe any of what I'm asking for would suddenly drive casual players away.

Some of it would and I know it would when I tried to host it over Brawl back in the day.

Casuals were far more likely to aim for Brawl even if some people hated it, a smaller majority.

If people legit think Smash 4 sucks, they aren't looking at it from all angles. It's really why it became my favorite game hands down.

Those were common complaints I heard from casual players.

Obviously it was at some point to make some characters and elements exactly the same and readd bad game design like L-Cancelling.

Some of these elements will affect casuals, the offense or carrying momentum? Sure it would't that much but a lot of common complaints I see from casuals are what I have said.

They didn't like Melee or PM when I've tried it with them over smash 4 or Brawl.

And these are groups of up to 40+ I've helped people organize for.

That has nothing to do with any of what I was saying.

It has everything to do with it.



I mentioned the main three I heard.



The game has a lot of stuff people haven't been trying or testing out as much.

The more it develops the more it will change for he better.

Did you even read my post?

I specifically said it does NOT have to be like Melee. Just fix the problems with how defensive Smash 4 is, like the complete lack of shieldstun. So why are you suddenly bringing Melee mechanics back up and claiming that has anything to do with what I just said I'm not talking about?

It does though, people are not as bothered by that issue in smash 4, which even isn't that bad when you consider how much stronger empty short hops are now if we go the comp route.

What I listed are issues with a melee engine that I know players told me outright they did not like.

What part of "I'm not talking about Melee" don't you understand?

The main thing I would want back from Melee is wavedashing and maybe slightly better combo potential from Melee, just not to ridiculous level or ones where it gets degenerate.

Depending on the aspect I would argue the rest could be debatable.



"Project M aka Project Melee"

Then what are you even talking about?

I'm talking about problems with Smash 4. Y'know, what this whole thread was about? I don't know where the hell you're getting anything else from, especially when I made it loud and clear that I'm not talking about Melee or any other game.

You were the one who addressed what I thought was the core issue, that people had direct and unrealistic expectations that won't be addressed because I know for a fact for many players it is "Melee like or go home"

Which is the truth.

What? How the hell do you go from "I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4" to "Melee like or go home"? What more do I have to say to make it clear to you that I'm not asking for Melee? How can I spell it out better that'll get the point through to you?

It seriously pisses me off to no end to hear that crap. It's like nobody's ever allowed to voice any sort of criticism of Smash 4 whatsoever without "oh you just want Melee" being the immediate response every damn time. No, that's not even close to anything I'm saying at all, please stop putting words in my mouth.

You said I'm saying "Melee like or go home". Even though I've repeatedly said the exact opposite god knows how many times. That is not the main issue I'm talking about. What more can I say to make that clear?

****, you're the guy who just outright said wavedashing should be brought back. Yet for me to merely say I don't like Smash 4's shields, that's so absurd it's tantamount to me saying "Melee like or go home"? That's where the line is drawn?

You have no agenda, you have been trying to walk me on circles when I addressed the shield issue without giving any reasonable idea of what, "good" gameplay we should be looking for.

I went for Melee and Project M because I have seen you post in the news articles and a few times on the smash 4 boards. I know exactly where you stand on this, but lack any real argument.

I called it out as,

"Project M aka Project Melee"

Because from past posts I have seen you make, I know this is exactly what you want.

If I am wrong, I am sorry, but then correct me an tell me what that would be then instead of stringing me along like you have for the last ten posts.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Yes, PM is a game I enjoy. So what? It doesn't mean it's the only game I'd ever like, I don't know why the hell you would assume that. The fact that I don't like Smash 4 does not mean I'm saying it has to be exactly like PM in order to satisfy me. Where are you getting that from, especially when I keep explaining the opposite?

I already did tell you what I want: a slightly faster pace, better mobility/approach options, and most important of all not so ridiculously damn defensive.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Previous posts from you imply such.

and most important of all not so ridiculously damn defensive.

This is not an issue or a problem. Not even remotely close to what it was in Brawl.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Please be careful not to have this dissolve into Brawl/Smash 4 vs P:M/Melee.

 

[hype machine]

I feel like you guys forgot what the thread is even about

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Please be careful not to have this dissolve into Brawl/Smash 4 vs P:M/Melee.

Hmm I suppose you are right here.

As it stands, I do not think people trying to get at Nintendo about Smash 4 will work given the largely positive results people have had it for it and how differing people expect for it.

The issue stands to be what specific things people want and only want that in which is why I said, "Melee-like or go home." Which is a large problem to address with how the OP worded the thread.

Something like this will not work, people overall love Smash 4 and it's a very very small minority that want it changed. Sending something to Nintendo will not change a thing and not worth it in the end.

With that I am out, if people really need to continue with me they can take it to PMs with me.

I stand by that really Smash 4 is not a problem and a great game on it's own. It's expectations to repeat the past is where the issues are and people imo, need to let it go.

 

[MegaMissingno]

When shieldstun is so low as to render almost any move punishable on block, as well as negate almost any form of shield pressure, there's absolutely a problem. For example every single one of Puff's aerials is shieldgrabbable, that's how crazy it is. And things like Pound doing more shield damage is rendered moot by the fact that they regenerate almost instantly, you'll never actually get a break with any move that doesn't just do it in one hit. When approach options are so limited that your only remaining option is simply "empty jump and hope they don't just grab", you can't tell me there's no problem here.

It may be a little less defensive than Brawl, but that isn't saying very much. It's still too much for me to enjoy

You don't have to agree with me, but to tell me that this is the same as "Melee like or go home", that's what really pisses me off. Stop that. At least respect my opinion instead of trying to twist it into the very thing I keep trying to tell you I'm not saying.

 

[Rᴏb]

Reading this conversation gave me cancer.

 

[Vigilante]

Red Ryu, please stop derailing this thread. Let's get back on the main topic? Is this letter coming soon? I might have to make it otherwise.

@ MegaMissingno , might as well ignore the guy. I've discussed with him many times and he's pretty hell-bent on hating anything that is in any ways tied to Melee.

I think you were clear, like me in believing that there are essentials that were in melee that we want to see return, but that doesn't mean we want exactly Melee 2. Advanced techniques, general speed and rewarding offense are what we enjoyed of Melee. Anything beyond that, they can pretty much be different and we'll still find a way to have fun with it. He seems to like taking our arguments and twisting them around.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Red Ryu, please stop derailing this thread. Let's get back on the main topic? Is this letter coming soon? I might have to make it otherwise.

@ MegaMissingno , might as well ignore the guy. I've discussed with him many times and he's pretty hell-bent on hating anything that is in any ways tied to Melee.

I think you were clear, like me in believing that there are essentials that were in melee that we want to see return, but that doesn't mean we want exactly Melee 2. Advanced techniques, general speed and rewarding offense are what we enjoyed of Melee. Anything beyond that, they can pretty much be different and we'll still find a way to have fun with it. He seems to like taking our arguments and twisting them around.

Umm woah.

Don't put words in my mouth. Melee is my second favorite smash game.

I just don't think everything in it is a good idea.

 

[Bleck]

When shieldstun is so low as to render almost any move punishable on block, as well as negate almost any form of shield pressure, there's absolutely a problem.

yeah uh high shieldstun is actually a problem with Melee, not one of its strengths