Counters to the Online Kings? (Wolf, Pit)

[Kamano]

Are there any good counters or tactics to get past spammy Wolf and Pit players online? It seems that once they start spamming their B attacks, they really leave no options other than to attempt to jump over their shots and to them, which they can obviously see from a mile away. And if you get caught in their spam... oh how fun. It would be irritating in an in-person match, but online with the input lag, it's extremely difficult to get out of, if not **** near impossible for some of the slower characters, and ends up racking up far more damage than it really should due to the online conditions.

I'm getting to the point where I might pick up Lucas just simply for the projectile absorption so that I can play him in the second match if I see Pit/Spacies first round. It's simply irritating trying to play competitively online when I know that no matter what, I'll run into spammy players that play these characters that I can't beat, and will play every trick possible to their advantage. For example in MLG's ladder, it picks 3 random stages. Not neutral stages, just any stages. And if you both don't agree to change stages, you have to play what it picked. This obviously leads to some ridiculous imbalance. That's a different issue though, so back to my main point: what can I do about this type of player?




Yes I just lost to a Pit player that I feel I should have been able to beat if not for 1) terrible stages, and 2) no real recourse to spamming.


Any tips would be appreciated if someone's found a brilliant way to beat this.

 

[Dubyah8r]

People spam Wolf's special moves? I use Wolf a lot and I almost never the b button. Its his forward and up smash that people always seem to spam...

as for Pit when people start people start spamming his smash b shield which should break the rhythm and the fsmash out of the shield and that should buy you enough time if you are using a a character with fast attacks. (not suggested with Ike, Gannondorf, and Dedede... you will be punished)

 

[Kamano]

Ah sorry, I didn't specify in my original post

I mean players who spam Pit and Wolf's projectiles. Blasters and arrows specifically is what I can't seem to do anything about

For the most part I can deal with Pit's Side-B (aside from stages with walls and hangover ledges (cough onett's right building) where you get caught in it.

 

[Zink]

People spam Wolf's special moves? I use Wolf a lot and I almost never the b button. Its his forward and up smash that people always seem to spam...

as for Pit when people start people start spamming his smash b shield which should break the rhythm and the fsmash out of the shield and that should buy you enough time if you are using a a character with fast attacks. (not suggested with Ike, Gannondorf, and Dedede... you will be punished)

you SHOULD use his specials. blaster spam is obviously awesome, shine is fast enough to interrupt anything and let you counter, flash has all kind of tricky stuff on the edge, and up-b... well, up-b is for getting stuck on the bottom of FD and dying an inch from the edge.

 

[Ojanya]

It's simply irritating trying to play competitively online when I know that no matter what, I'll run into spammy players that play these characters that I can't beat, and will play every trick possible to their advantage.

Wow. Just wow.



(Waddle-dee much, btw?)

 

[WoodHaven The Cat]

Really, if you can't beat a B spamming wolf, you're not fit for this game. Wolf isn't even an amazing B spamming character if i recall.

 

[Sudai]

Are there any good counters or tactics to get past spammy Wolf and Pit players online? It seems that once they start spamming their B attacks, they really leave no options other than to attempt to jump over their shots and to them, which they can obviously see from a mile away. And if you get caught in their spam... oh how fun. It would be irritating in an in-person match, but online with the input lag, it's extremely difficult to get out of, if not **** near impossible for some of the slower characters, and ends up racking up far more damage than it really should due to the online conditions.

I'm getting to the point where I might pick up Lucas just simply for the projectile absorption so that I can play him in the second match if I see Pit/Spacies first round. It's simply irritating trying to play competitively online when I know that no matter what, I'll run into spammy players that play these characters that I can't beat, and will play every trick possible to their advantage. For example in MLG's ladder, it picks 3 random stages. Not neutral stages, just any stages. And if you both don't agree to change stages, you have to play what it picked. This obviously leads to some ridiculous imbalance. That's a different issue though, so back to my main point: what can I do about this type of player?




Yes I just lost to a Pit player that I feel I should have been able to beat if not for 1) terrible stages, and 2) no real recourse to spamming.


Any tips would be appreciated if someone's found a brilliant way to beat this.

I would not say you play competitively at all. If you're getting beaten by spam tactics, you should rethink your strategy. It's really not hard to get around at all. Jump over, roll through them, reflect them (if you play a character that can), out spam them if you have a projectile.

 

[Ryanarius]

If you are looking for a how to instruction you should probably post what character you play. The basic thing you need to work on is figuring out how better to approach (thats obvious I suppose) and that tends to differ with every character but like the poster above me said jump over, roll through and reflect are some of your top options. A lot of it will come down to just not giving them time to set up and start a spam. If they can outspam you and thus force you to attack they will and you just have to realize that and attack before they outspam you.

 

[Kamano]

Really, if you can't beat a B spamming wolf, you're not fit for this game. Wolf isn't even an amazing B spamming character if i recall.

Have you even played a Wolf online who spams lasers? As a character without a sufficiently ranged counter attack? I play Zamus, and I'm not sure if this is a product of Zamus' blaster physics or Wolf's, but I CANNOT parry/countershoot/whatever you'd like to call it. My blaster shots pass through his, and since his have longer range, I have no chance. Pit is at least slightly less of an issue there, since my shots and his collide, but the fact that he can shoot far faster and direct his shots means that once I'm out of my whip's range, he's going to start shooting arrows down my throat.


This is specifically about these characters online. In person I'm sure they wouldn't be a huge issue. And as for the other projectile characters, the simple fact that their projectiles can collide with mine makes it mostly a non-issue, and for Falco, I can crawl as ZSS under his lasers. Wolf and Pit, that doesn't work.

As to the "Wow" at my complaints about balance, would you care to read the next sentence? I was refering to those who will refuse to change stages in online matches because of how much the full set of random stages can work to their advantage. Same reason why Hyrule was banned in melee, but according to the ladder rules and ignorance of those who set up the MLG system, those stages that offer ridiculous advantage to some characters are -not- cropped from the list. As far as Dedede. Waddle Dees collide with other projectiles, so they're not a problem. Shots that pass through everything else until they hit a character or a wall are, however an issue for me.

I suppose I should have expected that if I made a topic saying I have a hard time against some characters to get "Wow you shouldn't be playing this game if you're that bad".

 

[Sudai]

Having a hard time against certain characters isn't the issue here. Having a hard time against someone spamming the same move -is- the issue. I'm not trying to bash your for not being as good as some people at the game because I realize that's not fair at all. I'm just saying, projectile spam is easy to get around. Read back up to my post. I offered suggestions so not everyone here is just saying "El oh el! Nub!" Also, what makes you think projectile spam online is better than projectile spam offline? Honestly, I'd say it's better offline because of the fact that they'll be able to stop spamming faster whenever you get into an effective attack range. The lag online should make it that much easier for you to get past.

 

[zB.]

Just do a lot of well timed rolls, short hops into air-dodges, sidestepping, and the like. Or just choose a character that can counter projectile spam through their own projectiles or through a reflector. People who spam and, more importantly, aren't very talented overall aren't gonna be that great at countering either of the two.

And if the lag *really* is the problem, well, try to only play with people who are close to you (or don't have high latency). I do agree that online is different with high lag, but in most low-latency situations, it's close to negligible.

 

[NickRiddle]

Abuse the new sheild system...Seriously, just run at them and sheild whenever you would get hit...Then try to predict what they're going to do when you get close and respond accordingly.

 

[MeHo]

Just do a lot of well timed rolls, short hops into air-dodges, sidestepping, and the like. Or just choose a character that can counter projectile spam through their own projectiles or through a reflector. People who spam and, more importantly, aren't very talented overall aren't gonna be that great at countering either of the two.

And if the lag *really* is the problem, well, try to only play with people who are close to you (or don't have high latency). I do agree that online is different with high lag, but in most low-latency situations, it's close to negligible.

This. Plus, learn to Perfect Shield while approaching.

 

[Ganny]

I was playing as ganondorf against a wolf spammer, 1 vs 1 and I just walked into the blasts and ended up winning. Ganon can do these things because he is really really heavy and has an awesome B -> a combo which gives at least as much spam damage he takes.

I played a wolf spammer as link also. His shield absorbs the attack is standing still. Try to minimize damage by doing a jump arrow spam then block the blasts coming

 

[Kamano]

Having a hard time against certain characters isn't the issue here. Having a hard time against someone spamming the same move -is- the issue. I'm not trying to bash your for not being as good as some people at the game because I realize that's not fair at all. I'm just saying, projectile spam is easy to get around. Read back up to my post. I offered suggestions so not everyone here is just saying "El oh el! Nub!" Also, what makes you think projectile spam online is better than projectile spam offline? Honestly, I'd say it's better offline because of the fact that they'll be able to stop spamming faster whenever you get into an effective attack range. The lag online should make it that much easier for you to get past.

Well the thing that gets me with the input lag is one of a few things. Mostly that it's more difficult to time rolls and dodges through the projectiles due to them not quite matching up like normal. I guess it's something I'll get used to when I play more online games and get accustomed to it.


I might try the short hop aerial dodge thing, but I don't think that'll work very well since Zamus has a rather high short hop. It's looking like my best choice might be to change characters for such a situation, since Zamus has no ranged attacks that reach far enough, no reflector, and her dair is easily punishable, so if I jumped the lasers to get close I'd be in bad shape anyway.


Curious, since Link's shield blocks projectiles while standing, does Toon Link's do the same? I'd assume it does so... I played a little bit of link on melee, enough that I think I can pick up TL without an issue, at least easier and more interesting imo than picking up one of the spacies as a counter.



In retrospect I suppose the issue about the stage picking in my original post was unneccessary, but I made the topic right after getting slammed by arrows from pit on Poke Stadium 2 in wind mode (ugh), and before that a round on Onett where I got trapped against the right building by his sideB pretty much until a car came, since it seemed I was getting caught under the lip of the roof while trying to DI up and away. Was just pointing out I guess that the spamming issue becomes more of a problem in situations where the other person refuses to play a neutral stage due to the rules, but again, I suppose that's more of an issue with MLG's ruleset being terrible.

 

[Jon64]

I have had this problem with chars like Ike or Gannon, but It's usually pretty easy to win if you swich to someone with a dec ranged attack/reflector themselves. If their main strat is to spam the blaster (over and over and over) then just spam smash attaks when you get close, it almost feels like some chars dont have a chance, but hey, that is what multiple mains are for!

 

[Thee Che-Ko]

wolf and pit are both pretty balanced characters but if you are concerned with avoiding their projectile functions, then i would suggest dealing with them head to head, leaving no space to really make their projectile functions efficient ya know?

 

[The Pimp]

I still end up seeing more people spamming metaknights b and side b, and toon link dair and projectiles more than I see pit. I just end up using pit if I play them again to return the favor. As for Wolf I haven't come across 1 online yet but spamming lazer with him doesn't seem like it would work too well would expect up B to be spammed.

 

[Metzger]

You're going to run into blaster-heavy Wolf characters, and not just online - it's one of Wolf's better strategies. Not because the blaster is particularly hard to avoid (although it has a nice hitbox for a projectile) or does that much damage, but because Wolf's approach options are fairly limited, and blaster spam is a good way to force opponents to you. It also counters a lot of other projectiles out there.

Either way, whether or not these people are "noobs" has nothing to do with their projectile spam. That is a pretty valid strategy in this game, especially for characters like Wolf and Pit who don't have the tools for a solid approach game. More importantly, if they see you are having trouble avoiding it, then there's really no reason for them to stop, is there?

What you need to work on is just how to power shield and SHFFAD to prevent yourself from getting zoned/camped that hard.

 

[Ganny]

Ill have to check if Link's bombs can cut through the lasers. I know they chop through Dedede's wattle-doos easily enough.

 

[Runeblade279]

Well the thing that gets me with the input lag is one of a few things. Mostly that it's more difficult to time rolls and dodges through the projectiles due to them not quite matching up like normal. I guess it's something I'll get used to when I play more online games and get accustomed to it.


I might try the short hop aerial dodge thing, but I don't think that'll work very well since Zamus has a rather high short hop. It's looking like my best choice might be to change characters for such a situation, since Zamus has no ranged attacks that reach far enough, no reflector, and her dair is easily punishable, so if I jumped the lasers to get close I'd be in bad shape anyway.


Curious, since Link's shield blocks projectiles while standing, does Toon Link's do the same? I'd assume it does so... I played a little bit of link on melee, enough that I think I can pick up TL without an issue, at least easier and more interesting imo than picking up one of the spacies as a counter.



In retrospect I suppose the issue about the stage picking in my original post was unneccessary, but I made the topic right after getting slammed by arrows from pit on Poke Stadium 2 in wind mode (ugh), and before that a round on Onett where I got trapped against the right building by his sideB pretty much until a car came, since it seemed I was getting caught under the lip of the roof while trying to DI up and away. Was just pointing out I guess that the spamming issue becomes more of a problem in situations where the other person refuses to play a neutral stage due to the rules, but again, I suppose that's more of an issue with MLG's ruleset being terrible.

Getting around projectiles with Zamus is easy actually. Either do the easy shield/sidestep/roll while running (honestly this is the simplest, and not that hard) or just jump and approach with her fair/nair, they have good priority and fair has decent power, whilst nair paralyzes for a bit.

Could also down+B, it has invincibility frames, and if you're spaced right, you can kick them in the face on the way down.

Every character can get around projectile spams, it just takes some creativity. Hell, I play Falcon, it's harder with him, but my bro mains Pit and I win at least half the time, I usually go with the shield option with him. Plus his dash shield > shield grab is awesome.

But yeah. Play who you want to play, then develop strategies for that character. Don't play a character that's less fun because it beats wolf / pit. (admittedly they are annoying. >.<)

 

[garbage]

Pit is at least slightly less of an issue there, since my shots and his collide, but the fact that he can shoot far faster and direct his shots means that once I'm out of my whip's range, he's going to start shooting arrows down my throat.

THAT'S NOT THE ONLY THING GOING DOWN ZAMUS' THROAT!
AHAHAHHA I had to.

 

[Ryanarius]

I suppose that's more of an issue with MLG's ruleset being terrible.

I just want to point out those aren't mlg rules. Those are gamebattles and gamebattles always tends to be less limiting then mlg settings. MLG will probably/hopefully release a somewhat preliminary set of rules with neutral maps and what not and then matchfinder will probably have the option t o use mlg rules.

 

[Jamaz]

You can't really call laser spam a noob strategy unless the guy actually does nothing but B (I don't know anyone who just pushes B). Everytime I scuffle with a good Wolf player he will do his best to lay on the pressure with high priority attacks, but once he gets enough distance, he will spam the crap out of his blaster until you're forced to move in and deal with Wolf's devastating double hit smash (even his AAA combo is pretty **** good). The best way to approach for me is spot dodging and inch forward until you think Wolf will use a defense attack, then try to measure his distance so he'll miss and punish. Or mix it up with a grab or a very high priority attack. You really are forced to play mind games because blaster spam gives Wolf a pretty distinct advantage if you have to approach him.

 

[Anth0ny]

I hate Wolfs online. Even though I've beaten them on occasion with my Marth, the laser and fsmash spam is unavoidable with the online lag. Recovery becomes especially hard when you are being hit with lasers and your up b comes out a full second later...

Marth's counter, while effective against Wolf, stands no chance against his lasers AND lag.

 

[Makkun]

I know how he feels. -_-; I played against a Wolf player the other day who literally stood at the other end of the stage and tapped B until I went over there. I don't remember which character I was playing, but I knew I should've won the match. The lag really contributed to me not being able to get past the lasers. Then if I DID make it to Wolf, he would spam fsmash, which wouldn't always work, but made shielding tough because of the lag.

Really, I know spammers should be easy to get around, but for some reason I just couldn't do anything.
Also I can sympathize with the fact that spamming usually = lack of skill. The Wolf player eventually switched to Falco, in which I 3-stocked him. :\

 

[jmanxiv]

I tent to pick ike online just to get some easy wins. Pit and wolf are pretty easy online.

 

[Mama]

Spamming projectiles is actually a pretty big issue right now in the competitive scene. Thats why you'll see a lot of threads all about approaching characters who spam projectiles and just sit on one side of the stage and camp.

To counter, I'd say you should try out short hopping and air dodging. I haven't utilized this tactic yet so I don't know how good it is but if the people aren't too bright then it should work wonders. After that, once you get close enough you should use retreating fairs. Characters with long reaching and or fast fairs are good for this. (Marth, Diddy, Ness). You short hop, hit the control stick backward and the c-stick forward. What you end up doing is attacking while moving out of range of a roll or F-Smash (Dunno about Wolf's F-Smash though).

Just a few things you could try out. Or if you think you might be good with Ganondorf or Ike you could just stay on top of them right from the get go and try to be as aggressive as possible. It may work.

 

[pesticide]

online kings = pit, and wolf?

online GOD = diddy

DIDDY FTW

 

[Kamano]

I just want to point out those aren't mlg rules. Those are gamebattles and gamebattles always tends to be less limiting then mlg settings. MLG will probably/hopefully release a somewhat preliminary set of rules with neutral maps and what not and then matchfinder will probably have the option t o use mlg rules.

Ah, my mistake there. I thought MLG and Gamebattles were one and the same, so I was using the names interchangably. I didn't know they had different rulesets between them

 

[Cornstalk]

It isn't the 'spam' of Pit and Wolf's shots that make it difficult to handle, it's the lag from online play. That kind of camper tactic goes from mildly annoying to down right enraging when you're trying to approach through it with a half to full second of delay on your response time, particularly because both of those characters have very fast moves to knock you away with.


Having played a wolf player online that used this tactic recently, I found my normally decent sense of timing was completely shot when I tried to approach. If I had more time and patience, I would have done a few more rounds with my hosting to see if it made a decent difference.


I would say finding a reflecting/absorbing character would be a decent way to go to make them come after you for a change.

For online play, particularly the random nature of Basic Brawl, characters with moves that have lasting/slower hit boxes also seem to do a little better. I tried Peach online initially and I just didn't have the reach or precision I needed... so oddly enough I started playing GW and did remarkably well because his lasting hit boxes covered my butt many times where lag would destroy me on a faster character.




In a nutshell... tactics that cover your arse in a laggy online match seem 2-3x more effective then they could ever hope to be in a internet free tournament setting.