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DK Advancement of Metagame thread |Updated Random ideas 10/28/10!!!

Chaosgriffin

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imm..... you mean hyphen upsmash?

or jump canceled upsmash?

practically the same thing, but jump cancel is a little bit better, since you can do other stuff after jump canceling.

jump cancel is also a way to get rid of your shield faster in stead of just letting go of the shield button
 

MysteryRevengerson

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I just learned if you grab Yoshi out of his double jump, forward throw>Down throw will kill if you hop off stage.

This is probably already known/common sense, but I just learned it anyway.
 

DtJ S2n

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Actually if you hop off the stage he can probably up-b and maybe make it back. Walking off the stage and down-throwing will do the trick a lot faster, less chance of him getting out and will get him lower too.
 

MysteryRevengerson

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Actually if you hop off the stage he can probably up-b and maybe make it back. Walking off the stage and down-throwing will do the trick a lot faster, less chance of him getting out and will get him lower too.
Haha, the funny thing is, that's what I meant, I don't know why I said hop, it's more of a fall.

most yoshi's will be doing an aerial during their dj, so its not gonna be easy
Yeah, and I wish I could say you could just power shield, but that neutral B man...
 

wwwilliam0024

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Here are some tips i would gladly share:

- Jab-locking -

I love Jab locking people with DK, specially on Battlfield, ive done it quite alot of times, here are some tips.

Your regular Jab-lock option is the Jab... WOW NO ****! .... lol srsly, it only does the lock if you hit the opponent with the close hit (fore arms) if you jab em with the punch he will just go flying to the other side.
You can do anything to the oponent when hes getting up, so be creative! from Side B to Dsmash, to 9 wind, etc. :p

Here are other moves that also Work as a Lock:

When your opponent is under 45%

- Dtilt
- Bair (soft)


When your opponent is under 25%

- Bair (ive done it alot always on the same situation: "Opponent is on the edge of a platform, you Jump and Bair, he shields it but falls of, so you land with a Bair and the Bair will lock him... jujuju)

- Double Dtilt (at these % you can easily connect 2 or 3 Dtilts without having to move depending on how far your opponent is from you.)

- F tilt.

Any %

- Up B. (yup in weird cases when im coming back to a stage, if the opponent gets hit, DKs crazy UpB somehow makes them go down at random times and they get locked with all the other UpB hits.. If you land a Lag less UpB, youll bet a free Dtilt or Jab to punch, or to Side b then Punch.. lol)

- Preparing a Jab-Lock Tips -

Its not really hard at all! Its actually quite easy and more Dks should be used to doing it.

- Get used to it on Battlefield, why? Cause the many platforms and options!

- How can you get the opponent to fall for your trap? Easy, in most matches i doubt there wont be a moment when your opponent will be Untop of a platform while ur below it. When your opponent is on a platform he is very limited and the only way to escape you safe without getting % is by jumping, and peoples fastest reation is always a dodge/roll or shield, this is good, since the Platforms are small there wont be much rolling to do and this will make it 10 times easier to read and land your hit, Use Upsmash, Uair, Nair, and Bair, (Utilt rarely), after they Roll the fastest thing they can do to guarantee not getting hit is the Shield, this is what we want! if they dont shield its not all bad, they will take the load of % :p.

Try reading more your opponent on the platforms, this gives you Free hits and a chance for a Jab lock.

Also remember, we have Cargo we can easily cargo them into a wall, and if the opponent doesnt tech on the wall or floor, be sure to Jab lock them ;)

If they do, nothing a tech chace cant handle.
 

DtJ S2n

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Nice write up on jab lock, DK is actually pretty good at setting it up. Should be a little more clear that if you hit them with the tippered jab, it won't jab lock.

Also, add weak hit of N-air and down-angled f-tilt to the list, both are good options (dunno why you would use down angled f-tilt over d-tilt, I guess it's easier to turn around and do it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHmNCOxEasE&t=8m34s
Video example of the b-air set-up+lock, f-tilt lock, and d-tilt lock.

edit: lol @ DDM's BDacus. Nice one. Just so it's known, the platform cancels where you just teleport on the platforms can be done with any action as long as you're holding down on the control stick when you hit it, at a certain height. Doing it with down + b-air(c-stick it) is probably the best method. Don't get stuck in your shield(like with airdodge) and if you mess up you don't get a billion frames of lag(d-air). It's a little bit harder to do.
 

DtJ S2n

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Halberd actually also has a wall when the platform is landing into the ship, but you'll neeever get to use it. And we definitely can still abuse the PS2 "wall." Norfair kinda has a wall when the capsule pops up but you can't abuse that for obvious reasons lol. Actually maybe you could cargo d-throw CG into lava wave.

Frigate's definitely the easiest to catch somebody on but I wouldn't be CPing Frigate anytime soon, and it's a pretty quick ban vs most anyone who would take you there. edit: imo
 

MysteryRevengerson

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Halberd actually also has a wall when the platform is landing into the ship, but you'll neeever get to use it. And we definitely can still abuse the PS2 "wall." Norfair kinda has a wall when the capsule pops up but you can't abuse that for obvious reasons lol. Actually maybe you could cargo d-throw CG into lava wave.

Frigate's definitely the easiest to catch somebody on but I wouldn't be CPing Frigate anytime soon, and it's a pretty quick ban vs most anyone who would take you there. edit: imo
When the lava wave comes, if you grab and cargo throw, go down through the platform, and use down throw when you're below the middle platform, they get stage spiked pretty hard if they hit the lava wave then bounce off the bottom. I have done this once in my life time. Also, if someone gets inside the little capsule with you (god help their souls) if you can hit them with down+b before they do anything, you'll get some good damge, though I don't know what they could possible do out of a tech.

I'd like to add Norfair is one of my favorite CPs as DK, (and I may have said this before) mostly because the platforms are practically spaced just for DK's b-airs. It's also a good stage vs projectiles.
 

DtJ S2n

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Norfair is stupid good for DK. It's my go-to CP if it's legal + they don't ban it. Honestly there's not a single character I wouldn't like to be on norfair vs, even MK/GW/Marth. Sheik's pretty great there too. I've actually CP'd MKs there before and it's really a lot easier than on Smashville for me. Might just be me as a player but it just feels free. B-air on platforms is ridiculous, u-air kills at like 80%. Up-b is super nasty on norfair, you can just use it any time you want, be it for escaping or for hitting them with the strong hit. Cargo d-throw > lava wall > u-smash is a really easy lava combo. Norfair is probably our overall best counterpick behind Yoshi's Island.

PS2 is another counterpick great for DK that gets overlooked a lot. My only tip is don't bring characters that have a good fastfall and good juggles there (Marth, Fox). Ice and electric really depend on being able to change from air to ground/ground to air quickly. Air is dangerous to be facing them on for obvious reasons too.
 

Jebu-95

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Norfair is an interesting stage. It's an incredibly good CP against Falco. I 2-stocked a Falco with DK at Norfair in a tournament (he ended up winning me 2-1 though). I almost timed him out >__> Never pick this stage against MK or GW, they wreck stuff here.
 

MysteryRevengerson

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G&W's best tools on a stage is platforms. Do not pick a heavily platform based stage (i.e. Norfair) against G&W. Ever. Though, DK MIGHT be ok if you play perfectly. Oveall you just need to stay either at the same level as G&W or below him (watch for d-air though)
 

DtJ S2n

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Wind transformation is bad only if you get hit in the air prior to it starting. But if you're on the ground, we're so good at saying "dude get off the ground" with our down-b. It's not like they can jump and punish us for using down-b, unless they have a move like Falco's side-b. And you know, they want to be on the ground.

I actually would be comfortable vs GW on Norfair. You just have to stay on the bottom platform and u-tilt him when he does a down-air. On Norfair GW doesn't get to juggle DK nearly as much + it's easier to recover because of all the edges we can run to with our up-b. He's probably better at forcing us into the lava walls, and our giant punch becomes less devastating. I think it forces him to approach more predictably though. It's whatever you're better with dealing with. I wouldn't pick this stage vs GW, but I would definitely be happy to be here. There's just better stages to be.

MK is interesting on Norfair. The only thing I'll say about it is that it depends on the player. We don't get juggled or edge guarded as hard, again, but that kinda doesn't matter when shuttle loop kills you off the side at 40%. He's also probably the best character at abusing lava, d-smash/d-air/n-air all hit in good angles for it and he can follow it up with another n-air/shuttle loop. There are some MK players who are just bad here though, you should keep it in mind as an option.
 

DtJ S2n

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So yesterday I was actually playing norfair and I got an up-b invincibility glitch on it. I'm unsure exactly how it happened, but the safety capsule came up and I tried to up-b into it to karate chop the DDD in there some, but then I think the walls came up on it and I ended up on the ground next to it spinning, invincible. I actually invincibled through the lava wave, it was pretty cool. I think that's what happened at least, has anybody else had something like this happen to them?
 

¿Qué?

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So yesterday I was actually playing norfair and I got an up-b invincibility glitch on it. I'm unsure exactly how it happened, but the safety capsule came up and I tried to up-b into it to karate chop the DDD in there some, but then I think the walls came up on it and I ended up on the ground next to it spinning, invincible. I actually invincibled through the lava wave, it was pretty cool. I think that's what happened at least, has anybody else had something like this happen to them?

Hott all over..

Replay?
 

DtJ S2n

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No replay :r. Shortly after that I won (lol b-throw stage spike on safety capsule) and was like "I'M THE BEST" and did a victory lap irl and then forgot about the replay.

Oh and about that Sheik match-up. I don't feel like writing a full summary right now. Short version instead. You can't play this match-up normally. You HAVE to abuse all her weaknesses or you will get ruined. She has 3 weaknesses.

1. Obvious enough, she's bad at killing and she's also really light. You'll take about 90% really quickly, and it's hard to do anything about it. Just try and tack on any damage you can during the first 90%. Hit them with an aerial up-b, down-b, try to trade anything, fastfall u-air out of combos, etc. Make sure you don't get hit by a u-smash no matter what though, it'll always tipper vs DK and that kills at around 150%, which is earlier than we should die. Or at earlier %, you can get about 30% off of the two hits in her u-smash and that suuuucks. Watch for oppurtunities to hit with a d-smash around 100%. She's pretty weak getting off the edge, though she can do some fancy tricks like drop > double jump > wall jump > b-air or b-reverse needle charge cancel. You won't get many giant punches here. Headbutt is a very good way to get your kills, Sheiks want to punish your landing lag, and you can dodge their grab/d-smash and punish with headbutt's float. It sounds ridiculous but it's so hard to get the hit on Sheik, and headbutt is relatively low risk, you just have to try it sometimes. Pay attention to roll/spot-dodge habits!

2. Recovery. If you're holding onto the ledge, she has to up-b onto the stage; her side-b and up-b's second part will not grab the ledge if you edgehog. Some Sheiks (read: Judo) are really good at canceling the lag, but it's still possible to mess them up/catch their lag off it. A get-up jumped side-b/edgehopped giant punch/get-up + f-tilt are free damage/kills off their lag, watch for them. When you try to recover, a good Sheik will either throw needles or run off and slap you in the nose (f-air beats our up-b). Recover high onto platforms if you need to, just mix it up a lot.

3. This is the secret one! Sheik is really fast. At running and jumping vertically. However, her airspeed is horrendous. This means that she can't move diagonally, only in straight lines. USE THIS. Sheik is going to try and stay grounded unless you're in a juggle position, in which case she'll shoot up and down really quick. In a neutral position, you know she's going to stay grounded. Don't even bother using f-tilt, it's punishable (Sheik is so good at punishing) even when you think you spaced it. Use d-tilt and down-b instead. She's not going to be jumping over them the majority of the time, especially if you're below 90%. She wants that f-tilt bad. If you can get a quick d-tilt d-tilt down-b off, that's a third of their stock, percent-wise. They're devastating, and pretty low risk. Occasionally you might take a b-air to the face or something because of a bad d-tilt/down-b, but it's a lot easier to land than f-tilt or grabs.

Stupid stuff to watch out for. Chain. Don't be stupid around Sheik's chain! A SH chain can take you up to 100+ in a matter of seconds, and you can't shield out of it if done perfectly. If you get hit on the backside, you'll have to move all the way to the front to get out. It's also a pretty mean edgeguard if they get it out in time. If they're not spaced well, get-up attack it. Otherwise you'll need to do something fancy like edgehop up-b over it. Don't try and challenge it from the front, it hits too often. If a Sheik chain-jackets (putting a hitbox of another move onto the chain's tipper hitbox), clank it. Don't bother trying to get through it. Otherwise for chain, just down-b it or punch it from behind. Chain is really hard for a Sheik to use perfectly, though so you may be able to grab/d-tilt/even d-smash out of it. Vanish. This move is almost entirely invincible on start-up, don't think you can hit a Sheik before she teleports away. F-tilt, if the sheik messes up, you can up-b out of this. You should be trying to up-b while you DI anyways, it does good damage even if it's only the first hit.

When you get thrown! This one is super important. At lower percents it doesn't matter so much, this is more for higher percents. I recommend mostly DI-ing away from all of Sheiks throws. All of her throws hit straight up with weak knockback. If you go straight up at a higher percent, this WILL combo into a b-air and f-air and you'll be like "wtf" and die. If you DI away, she has no real follow-up but you might have to recover from an odd position if you go offstage. If you do go up, for whatever reason (mix-up or bad DI), fastfall b-air. Airdodging will just get you n-air'd after you dodge the f-air/b-air.

Sheik's good on a lot of stages. Yoshi's if not banned. Lylat is good otherwise, you can make it really hard for her to lagless her up-b this way, and we work better on tilts than she does (her needles doesn't follow the ground like our down-b does). If you're good at it, Rainbow is another great choice. Her airspeed is crippling here (just don't stand directly above her) and she can't juggle nearly as well on the moving stage, it takes a while for her to get us to 90% lol. Also can mess up her recovery on the second phase. Ban FD/Halberd, whatever your preference is.

So like I was going to write a short version and this kinda is, but lol didn't expect this much. Um other stuff I kinda forgot. If she f-tilts/jabs your shield, roll. Dash attack is all she'll get you with for rolling and it's much better to get dash attacked than f-tilt'd/jab'd/grab'd. Even though Sheik combos the crap out of DK for the first 90% and is hard to hit, this match-up is still our favor, at least even. 55:45 in my perspective. Maybe more for us though, Judo happens to be really good at the DK match-up so maybe it's skewed. Idk 55:45 sounds good.

I'll copy paste this whenever a Sheik match-up thread/question etc. rolls around. But here it is!
 

DKwill

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Incredible Sheik matchup knowledge is now at our disposal. Thanks so much Sold2!!

I have a bit of experience in this matchup as well, but not nearly as much, so I'll just mention a few tricks I know vs Sheik.

Go for gimps! DK can definitely edge guard Sheik pretty well, imo the best ways to do so are by reading her jumps and eating them with reverse weak n-air or weak b-airs. You can then follow up with ledge dropped up-b and force her onto the stage for huge damage like Sold2 was saying. This is easily the fastest way I rack up damage on Sheiks. Btw, if you catch a Sheik's jump offstage with a b-air/n-air into a few hits of up-b and then sweet spot to the edge, she's quite possibly dead. Lol.

Something I also wanted to mention that I recently started doing as a sort of mix up that has a very high percentage of success vs Fox and Falco. Given you have the space, down throw x3 (the second two being timed dash grabs), combos into either f-tilt or you take a step and d-tilt. In the latter case, you can read the roll and walk/running down b as a punish since he'll be fairly far away at this point. 0-42% combo! Very very useful imo xD

In a friendly with Inui's fox the other day on Final Destination, I did down throw cg x3 into down angled f-tilt which sent him down and out, then read his jump and d-aired; 0-death. Try it out =) Not a true combo by any means, but hey, the way I play is that if it works, it works.
 

wwwilliam0024

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Hey guys! im back from Boston, miss me? :p

hmm Shiek MU... i dont have much experience on this one, but the few times ive played, Ftilt ***** her, try to grab alot for you can grab out of shield almost all her attacks, dont fall infront of her, dont fall for Jab games.

Bair her when shes out of the stage, its really easy to gimp her :p

BTW @ brocoli kong

CG on fox is true combo in the first 2 Dthrows, from 0%. then after that you can DownB him for an extra 14%, and it works ;)
 

CaLibUr_1337

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No replay :r. Shortly after that I won (lol b-throw stage spike on safety capsule) and was like "I'M THE BEST" and did a victory lap irl and then forgot about the replay.

Oh and about that Sheik match-up. I don't feel like writing a full summary right now. Short version instead. You can't play this match-up normally. You HAVE to abuse all her weaknesses or you will get ruined. She has 3 weaknesses.

1. Obvious enough, she's bad at killing and she's also really light. You'll take about 90% really quickly, and it's hard to do anything about it. Just try and tack on any damage you can during the first 90%. Hit them with an aerial up-b, down-b, try to trade anything, fastfall u-air out of combos, etc. Make sure you don't get hit by a u-smash no matter what though, it'll always tipper vs DK and that kills at around 150%, which is earlier than we should die. Or at earlier %, you can get about 30% off of the two hits in her u-smash and that suuuucks. Watch for oppurtunities to hit with a d-smash around 100%. She's pretty weak getting off the edge, though she can do some fancy tricks like drop > double jump > wall jump > b-air or b-reverse needle charge cancel. You won't get many giant punches here. Headbutt is a very good way to get your kills, Sheiks want to punish your landing lag, and you can dodge their grab/d-smash and punish with headbutt's float. It sounds ridiculous but it's so hard to get the hit on Sheik, and headbutt is relatively low risk, you just have to try it sometimes. Pay attention to roll/spot-dodge habits!

2. Recovery. If you're holding onto the ledge, she has to up-b onto the stage; her side-b and up-b's second part will not grab the ledge if you edgehog. Some Sheiks (read: Judo) are really good at canceling the lag, but it's still possible to mess them up/catch their lag off it. A get-up jumped side-b/edgehopped giant punch/get-up + f-tilt are free damage/kills off their lag, watch for them. When you try to recover, a good Sheik will either throw needles or run off and slap you in the nose (f-air beats our up-b). Recover high onto platforms if you need to, just mix it up a lot.

3. This is the secret one! Sheik is really fast. At running and jumping vertically. However, her airspeed is horrendous. This means that she can't move diagonally, only in straight lines. USE THIS. Sheik is going to try and stay grounded unless you're in a juggle position, in which case she'll shoot up and down really quick. In a neutral position, you know she's going to stay grounded. Don't even bother using f-tilt, it's punishable (Sheik is so good at punishing) even when you think you spaced it. Use d-tilt and down-b instead. She's not going to be jumping over them the majority of the time, especially if you're below 90%. She wants that f-tilt bad. If you can get a quick d-tilt d-tilt down-b off, that's a third of their stock, percent-wise. They're devastating, and pretty low risk. Occasionally you might take a b-air to the face or something because of a bad d-tilt/down-b, but it's a lot easier to land than f-tilt or grabs.

Stupid stuff to watch out for. Chain. Don't be stupid around Sheik's chain! A SH chain can take you up to 100+ in a matter of seconds, and you can't shield out of it if done perfectly. If you get hit on the backside, you'll have to move all the way to the front to get out. It's also a pretty mean edgeguard if they get it out in time. If they're not spaced well, get-up attack it. Otherwise you'll need to do something fancy like edgehop up-b over it. Don't try and challenge it from the front, it hits too often. If a Sheik chain-jackets (putting a hitbox of another move onto the chain's tipper hitbox), clank it. Don't bother trying to get through it. Otherwise for chain, just down-b it or punch it from behind. Chain is really hard for a Sheik to use perfectly, though so you may be able to grab/d-tilt/even d-smash out of it. Vanish. This move is almost entirely invincible on start-up, don't think you can hit a Sheik before she teleports away. F-tilt, if the sheik messes up, you can up-b out of this. You should be trying to up-b while you DI anyways, it does good damage even if it's only the first hit.

When you get thrown! This one is super important. At lower percents it doesn't matter so much, this is more for higher percents. I recommend mostly DI-ing away from all of Sheiks throws. All of her throws hit straight up with weak knockback. If you go straight up at a higher percent, this WILL combo into a b-air and f-air and you'll be like "wtf" and die. If you DI away, she has no real follow-up but you might have to recover from an odd position if you go offstage. If you do go up, for whatever reason (mix-up or bad DI), fastfall b-air. Airdodging will just get you n-air'd after you dodge the f-air/b-air.

Sheik's good on a lot of stages. Yoshi's if not banned. Lylat is good otherwise, you can make it really hard for her to lagless her up-b this way, and we work better on tilts than she does (her needles doesn't follow the ground like our down-b does). If you're good at it, Rainbow is another great choice. Her airspeed is crippling here (just don't stand directly above her) and she can't juggle nearly as well on the moving stage, it takes a while for her to get us to 90% lol. Also can mess up her recovery on the second phase. Ban FD/Halberd, whatever your preference is.

So like I was going to write a short version and this kinda is, but lol didn't expect this much. Um other stuff I kinda forgot. If she f-tilts/jabs your shield, roll. Dash attack is all she'll get you with for rolling and it's much better to get dash attacked than f-tilt'd/jab'd/grab'd. Even though Sheik combos the crap out of DK for the first 90% and is hard to hit, this match-up is still our favor, at least even. 55:45 in my perspective. Maybe more for us though, Judo happens to be really good at the DK match-up so maybe it's skewed. Idk 55:45 sounds good.

I'll copy paste this whenever a Sheik match-up thread/question etc. rolls around. But here it is!
Copy paste into matchup thread?
 

Ripple

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1 frame window tech is now down to about 30% consistency. listen for the skidding sound to end and up-b right before it. you're welcome.
 

Deathfox30

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1 frame window tech is now down to about 30% consistency. Listen for the skidding sound to end and up-b right before it. You're welcome.
how consistent are you with the shield version?!

Please reply in caps

Edit: It uncapped it. Vbulletin2smart
 
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