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Does the level 9 CPU adapt to situation in a match?

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
Me too, since you see it in like, all my posts!

But yeah, you said what I was trying to real hard immortal one.

Relation to position on stage is probably key.

I wonder how many moves they can copy if any at all?

DK has stolen most of my ground techniques, but is so afraid to go offstage he ends up dair spiking me ON the stage.
 

Debonu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
61
Location
pacific coast
if not adapt it copies because i was practicing teching in an enclosed stage and now all the lvl 9 computers tech EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL its so gey because they tech my dthrow w/ GaW 100% and its like dude hacks so now im pissed and wanna know if i can reset their AI because it became to good at teching and its just getting annoying they are way better than me ~cries~
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
Actually, I've heard they tech alot since day one.

However, I think I've found the key to their ability to copy.

How many of you have replays?

No matter how hard I tried, DK would not copy my crouch taunting, even if it was 5 seconds before or after a KO.

However, I watched my replays, and I NEVER crouch taunt with him, but the other stuff the comp "learned" I do IN THE REPLAYS...
 

Monjula

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
95
NNID
AdrianMonjula
3DS FC
5215-1057-8129
No...

But they do hack the actual frickin' game.

That's what they did to me at least: Vidya proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s84hYcQqKGs

F*ckin Kirby... >=(
I think this is undeniable proof that they think on their own! Why else would the system tweak the game so that he KILLS HIMSELF?! Only because he killed the comp two times in a row and finished the match without dying; the comp made this video out of HATRED for the user!

BURN ALL YOUR SMASH BROS BEFORE THEY TAKE OVER!!! OR BETTER YET, THE WII IN GENERAL! RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIIIIIVES!

But seriously. Freaky vid.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Yeah, I think the button-copy theory seems pretty solid now. It'd be nice if we had a vid of a CP actually crouch taunting, so we'd have solid proof.
Not to intrude, but...

CPUs crouch taunting before anyone doing it in my copy of Brawl happened. I actually took notice of it after some guy at a tourney teabagged me after one of those gay Marth dittos.

I believe it's some sort of angorithm that uses habits of competitive players (and a little bit of not doing so). Also, there were times when a CPU seemed to crouch taunt, but was "faking out" a Dtilt.

Also, CPU Metaknight tornado spams.

Do I use MK? Nope. Whoever programmed those nasty CPUs did a good job.

They also sandbag, allowing you to 0-to-death them every now and then. Like this shameful showing by a G&W: Lamest 0-to-death combo ever.

I find their behaviors to be erratic and sometimes they SEEM to be learning of new techniques. I however don't believe that theory.

Why? Because the CPU 9s for Marth and Toon Link (which are the most frequently used characters in my game data because it's my Wii) are ********.

Marth plays like he came out of Melee and thinks he can chain Fair to a Ken Combo, but also thinks that it's cool to shorthop Dancing Blade as an approach.

Toon Link thinks charging arrows is cool and that Dair spam is okay.

Yet my Marth has taken on the "patient, disputed campy" playstyle portrayed by EL for Brawl, using mostly tilts and retreating aerials, not trying to chain into Fsmash or use Dancing Blade in the air. <_<

My Toon Link likes to poke with shorthop Zairs, SHDAs, lag canceled arrow retreating aerials, bomb pulls, etc. A campy Toon Link that likes to play the "Who can get whom offstage and to a gimp from Nair or Fair first?" I rarely ever use Dair.

That's led me to believe that the CPUs do not improve at all, but that some are more polished than others (like I think Fox and Mr. Game and Watch have a very solid CPU overall), and that those CPUs reflect move choices similar to a competitive gamer's. That's led some of you to believe they play off your style because you play an efficient style copied down by the CPUs to reflect a competitive game somewhat.

For example, Peach's metagame was not reflected by the level 9 in Melee (the CPU by the way, was awful), because no metagame of her's existed until Mike G. came along. The level 9 CPU in Brawl however, plays a lot like a competitive Peach straight out of Melee. Coincidence? I think not.

This would explain why newer characters have terrible CPUs (err, Toon Link, Snake, ROB), but older vets like Peach and Fox have better ones. Also, some may just of been unpolished on purpose to ease difficulty (Falco and Marth among some).

The level of consistency however, varies. Like said before, the old vets like Falco and Marth have terrible CPUs, but are contenders of high-level play in both Melee and Brawl. Also, not all newcomers have unpolished CPUs. Meta Knight (sans the lack of Shuttle Loop usage) and Wolf have very well-crafted CPUs overall (but they tend to "sandbag" and play idiotically at times).


TL;DR:

You people are all just paranoid. Let's go play real people whenever we can, mmkay?!
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
I still stick by that they probably don't record what you do, but record from your replays, but only right before a KO.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
Hmmm... try to get a CPU bowser to koopa claw ISJR or pikachu to QAC, or a similar semi-complex AT. Since those were discovered after the CPUs were programmed, that might prove something.
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
Funny how most of the no's come with no explanation.

"They can copy your button presses for a replay, but there's no way they can copy button presses for behavior"

Would be a better start to that.

They still seem to only be stealing my moves from replays.
 

Zenthewanderer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
137
Location
US, TN
It certainly does seem like the 'No' people lack explanations- I agree. I admit there is some merit to these observations... I've experienced some similiar situations.
For instance- way back when I unlocked Sonic, the CPU was horrible as him. It couldn't really combo, it relied solely on speed and a 'hit and run' sort of style. Not only that, it only recovered with the spring- never the spin. Basically, it had some pretty poor Sonic AI.
Then, as I began to main Sonic, the CPU got mysteriously better. It began using some of my tricks- basically doing the opposite of some of the things I mentioned. AI Sonic seemed to not only know some of my techniques, but also some of my combos. I can't really describe it, but now I'm watching CPU only matches with Sonic and noticing something... Its like I'm watching a lower level fighter copying me. Like a kid that's seen what I can do and tries to imitate me- just not at the right time usually.

My second example is Kirby- my younger sister's main. She's been playing Smash for as long as I have, way back to the N64. When we first played Brawl, Kirby's AI was fairly pitiful. It didn't use all its jumps before using Up-B to recovery, it never-ever used the hammer for horizontal recovery. Weeks after my sister starting showing off her Kirby talents, suddenly the CPU starts displaying a similiar style. I could go on, but the details here aren't as clear to me as the Sonic situation.

On a final note, the CPU has -to some extent- copied our favored taunts. CPU Sonic, Link, Lucario, Kirby, Toon Link, Wolf, and a number of others suddenly only use one taunt- our preferred ones. At first they used random ones, obviously, but now its... Sonic- 'You're too slow!', Kirby- 'Victory Dance', Link- 'Sheaths swords', Lucario- 'Down-Taunt', Toon Link- 'Wind Orchestra', Wolf 'What's the matter, scared?', and so-on. Its quite odd- but cool, to be honest. Just a few of my observations.
 

Rejjae

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
111
Location
Newcastle, ON
It'd be cool if they made the CPU record everytime you land 5-7 hits on them in a row, then started using your combo's against you. It'd be more effective in Melee since it has actual combo's, but at least they can learn all the deadly chaingrabs in Brawl... XD
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
I dunno. Zenthewanderer's story also seems to support the "copying button presses" arguement.

Zenthewanderer, do you make replays? If so that could be were the computer logs them.
 

Pero

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
116
Location
Emerald Zone, Georgia
I make replays but none of a good toon link it seems if u have wifi and play against someone with the character or use them alot they grow to help u grow...
 

E.M.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
169
The AI in brawl is weird.

I mostly play against level 5 cpu's and demolish them 100% of the time. Recently, I've been playing against level 4 cpu's and they've been becoming increasingly more difficult to defeat. WTF? For the record, while playing level 4 and 5 cpu's, I've accumulated around 56 replays. Maybe that's the reason? Something about logging buttons?

I spent about 45 seconds in a match with ganon against lvl 4 samus in close quarters fighting exchanging attacks and neither of us could connect. Dodging, sidestepping, short hopping, power sheilding, and using every possible attack, AT, etc, but once I connected with a hit, samus became ******** and easily defeated. This ain't the first time it's happened either.

Stuff I've noticed in general is that the cpu get's very aggressive and difficult if your damage is in the hundreds. But once you're knocked out, they become crappy and easy to knock out with the lousiest of ways.

I've also noticed that tend to "level jump" in match from time to time. It's like your playing against level 4 and suddenly they go crazy, perfectly countering each attack you throw at them no matter how unpredictable you are, as if they were around level 9.
 

Kaidivh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
1
I do think that the Brawl AI will adapt depending on what you do. I main Marth/Kirby, and one thing I like to do as Kirby as a sort of gimp, I will knock my opponent offstage, then hit them with a Dair and time it right so that immediately afterwards I can footstool jump. When I return on stage I like to crouch repeatedly :). Then later I was playing as Luigi against Kirby, and I was gimped in the same fashion and the Kirby crouched repeatedly instead of a taunt. Some other characters have been doing the same crouching after kill behaviour as well. I also record a ton of replays so they may be adapting to my replays
 

luminoth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
18
No. No. And no. Stop this discussion please.

Seriously, you guys are using common computer tactics as example of adaptation. THAT is scary. One guy says he saw a comp camping. That always happens at a certain distance. Falco's short hop laser? That too is normal. Cpus edgehogging? Every character does that even if they are not at level 9.

There is an infinite number of behaviors for characters in general and in particular when it comes to brawl's cpu. They are ALL programmed. More examples: Mario and Marth will up b instantly if you try to edge guard them, as oposed to the common low recovery approach. Marth will abuse his cpu reflexes when utilizing his counter, mainly if you are playing a slow character. Links will shield grab you often. Pikachus will edgeguard with thunders. Many characters will opt for small dashes over rolls when dodging your attacks, some dashes will also look erratically while they are actually being used for spacing and timed smashes, that is why some cpus look like they are dash dancing at times. Nair as a taunt after deaths? I never use this and the computer always does that.

On a last note behaviors will also change once you reach a certain percentage. Play defensive while you have accumulated damage and watch Mario spam fsmashes like crazy. That was actually one of the main issues of melee's cpu. No matter what percentage you were at it would always poke you with standard a combos.

And if you haven't gotten it already by all the text above, cpus do NOT copy button pressing.
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
No. No. And no. Stop this discussion please.

Seriously, you guys are using common computer tactics as example of adaptation. THAT is scary. One guy says he saw a comp camping. That always happens at a certain distance. Falco's short hop laser? That too is normal. Cpus edgehogging? Every character does that even if they are not at level 9.

There is an infinite number of behaviors for characters in general and in particular when it comes to brawl's cpu. They are ALL programmed. More examples: Mario and Marth will up b instantly if you try to edge guard them, as oposed to the common low recovery approach. Marth will abuse his cpu reflexes when utilizing his counter, mainly if you are playing a slow character. Links will shield grab you often. Pikachus will edgeguard with thunders. Many characters will opt for small dashes over rolls when dodging your attacks, some dashes will also look erratically while they are actually being used for spacing and timed smashes, that is why some cpus look like they are dash dancing at times. Nair as a taunt after deaths? I never use this and the computer always does that.

On a last note behaviors will also change once you reach a certain percentage. Play defensive while you have accumulated damage and watch Mario spam fsmashes like crazy. That was actually one of the main issues of melee's cpu. No matter what percentage you were at it would always poke you with standard a combos.

And if you haven't gotten it already by all the text above, cpus do NOT copy button pressing.

So, your comps nair taunt? Mine don't. Crouch taunting after a death? Surely they aren't switching to attack something that isn't there.

I'm not saying edgehogging is copied, because frankly, their offstage game is horrible. However, the button presses onstage, especially from replays seem to be copied, my DK being a prime example for me. He never arbitrarily turned his back for utilts before, did jump cargo to uair, or use bair to side b until I made replays of me doing that, all of those actions resulting in a KO about 10 seconds or less later.
 

luminoth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
18
So, your comps nair taunt? Mine don't. Crouch taunting after a death? Surely they aren't switching to attack something that isn't there.

I'm not saying edgehogging is copied, because frankly, their offstage game is horrible. However, the button presses onstage, especially from replays seem to be copied, my DK being a prime example for me. He never arbitrarily turned his back for utilts before, did jump cargo to uair, or use bair to side b until I made replays of me doing that, all of those actions resulting in a KO about 10 seconds or less later.

A small reply before testing: the turn+utilt was a common move for cpu DK even in melee.
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
Yeah, but when you are on the complete opposite side of Battlefield? What about the other moves?

I don't think anyone is getting that I don't think this is necessarily true, but I'm willing to look and see if it is, especially since how suspicious mine have been acting recently.
 

elunesgrace

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
10
Eh, the comps definitely do some copying. After i used up + b to spike the comp on the underside of some stages, a cpu marth ended up pulling one on me. That sort of weirded me out =.=
 

Pero

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
116
Location
Emerald Zone, Georgia
I have watch this thread grow alittle I say yes comps adapt and copy because, back during my Toon Link trials I got use to the Brawl phiziks (i kno thats not the correct spelling but its kool way to spell it so ehh...) I began edgegaurding with Toon Links nair and bair. Then I gave up on the Links began maining Sonic and noticed during my practice with lvl 9 Toon Link he did as he hasnt before, he began edgegaurding with nair and bair and I would also taunt by short hopping nairs and the comp did this another time we randomly faced.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
Seriously? Y'all think the coms have artificial inteligence? LOL. It doesn't work that way. Everything has already been programmed into the game. It won't learn new things.
 

Pero

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
116
Location
Emerald Zone, Georgia
Seriously? Y'all think the coms have artificial inteligence? LOL. It doesn't work that way. Everything has already been programmed into the game. It won't learn new things.
Another no with weak explaination but ehh maybe right might just be nothin. idc I'm just living life as it comes. But who knos might be something big...bigger than u and me...or even...>_>...<_<...>_>...CHUCK NORIS!...I think hear something...OMG CHUCK NORIS JUST PWNED ME!...Well i had it comin...
 

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,901
Location
Jackson, Tennessee
I thing they do learn.
Fox hasn't laser spammed me at the beginning of the match like he always did.
Or is that because I pulled out the reflector at start....
Anyway, even on Melee, I have noticed differences in the Fox there.
Chained me.
Not uthrows, but uthrow to fthrow.
I would say that's kind of weird, since he like never does that.

And Pero, does your sig mean Sonic rules?
 

Patsie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
441
Location
Nashville, Tennessee
I do know that some approaches are almost fool-proof on CPUs, even the simplest ones.

Since Melee at least, CPUs have never, ever tried to avoid a dair of any sort; it looks like when you approach from above and they're on the ground they just don't care.
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
I still stand by them copying replays or us rather than learning.

I wonder if we can eventually, through testing, not only prove this, but get them to do stupid things like dair off stage and KO themselves.....just not the way they already do....
 

Rejjae

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
111
Location
Newcastle, ON
I just recently played as DK against lvl9 Peach, and half way through the match I decided to just crouch and sit there since she always floats on the ground for an aerial, runs in for an attack or throws a turnip, and d-tilt kills all of these. It completely destroyed her approach, and after 4-6 repetitions of this, every time I crouched from half way across the stage, she just stood there, medium distance away, ran back and forth, jumped, tried the turnip again (only to have it swatted away), then after a while she started floating just above reach of d-tilt and dropping with a bair. She did this every time afterwards that I crouched from across the level.

I think they have at least some level of adaptation, a human could have countered the above tactic much faster than the CPU did, but it still eventually managed to to get past. Perhaps the CPU "rethinks" its approach strategy after being beaten a certain number of times.
 
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