Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[EdreesesPieces]

Much as I think this is really stupid I don't see any legitimate reason for banning it either. Perhaps I can just get really good with the best character in the game, and offer everyone I play a choice: Play a really good best character in the game, or play my ness and dont infinite me. I could see this working if I got really good ^_^

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Depends which best character.

Not that it truly affects me, since I don't play Lucas or Ness, and I don't play anyone with an infinite on them either.

 

[DarkBlue]

So it turns out Marth and Pokemon Trainer are the only two opponents who have this terrible infinite grab.

Marth vs Ness in a match of equal skill is heavily slanted towards the marth anyway, if you truly wanted to win you would be playing as a different character in the first place.

The same can now be said for PT. He is a counterpick character for Ness now. Not much we can do about that besides not pick Ness vs these characters in the same way that DK players would switch to their secondary to avoid facing DDD.

 

[thesage]

Well I think that skill does take into effect when some random noob can come up and just grab you three times to win >_>; My mom can do this thing (no joke) and she's legally blind (but she can still see somewhat).

Considering I 2nd MK I would've just used MK for Marth and PT matchups as MK is ok against Marth and he ***** pt somewhat.

 

[KiteDXX]

Im starting to think KiteDX secretly hates Ness. Lol

Suddenly, rational thought makes you a rebellious person? Ness doesn't give my main problems, and my doubles partner had Ness as a secondary up until this topic was posted. I have no reason to hate anything, but plenty of reasons to break down why something hard to enforce shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

I'm starting to think Smashbros_7 uses Ness/Lucas and wants to change the game to an unnecessary level to make them playable again. Lol

(Yes, the last 2 lines are blatant sarcasm.)

 

[Conda]

The pigheaded side of the smash community is starting to show face.

 

[Trapt497]

conda what do you mean by that?

So thats it then? The majority of us believe this will not be banned and Ness and Lucas will be useless in tournaments?

Yuna and Cort, you both have argued a lot about how you believe this in no way should be banned, correct? If you believe so, do you believe there is any slim chance that there is some random tactic out there that could help negate the extreme advantage a lot of characters have over Ness and Lucas now?

I know this sounds like I'm clinging on to too much hope and I am sorry about that. I just dont want Ness to become 'useless' in tournament play, simply put.

Please don't flame me, yes I have read the thread, I'm just another respectable smasher asking questions.

 

[Ztarfish]

Ew and this topic got me all worked up too.
Only three people can do it? Banning it is pointless.

 

[Earthbound360]

No, this does deserve a ban. It puts Ness and Lucas at a disadvantage to people they would normally do well against.

So much crap here I need to talk about, but my time is limited.
Here's where I'll start: The way it should be banned.

First off, are you people familiar with the "Rising and falling pund" maneuver in Melee?
It was banned from tournament play.

People here are saying "How would it be banned? Ban grabbing?"
A smart guy comes around and says "Ban repetetive relase and grabs"
Then the antagonist says "What if it was an accident?"
Then the guy with brains says "WTF? How is this accidental?"

Well, in Melee, Jigglypuff wasn't banned from using her pound off tage right? That's equal to banning the grab. Its not to ban, but repetetive and intentional use is bannable.

Now, the Jigglypuff player can use the ability to make a small stall in the air if necessary. If a Marth was charging an fsmash by the stage, the Jpuff could stall a bit in order to wait out the charging right? Yes, and that's equal to Ness being smashed out of a grab release, so this is not bannable.

Also, just think. All stalls in Melee were banned. This in essence, is a stall since you hardly move at all, and it even has a damage bonus. Whoopie.

My point is, the CG could be banned the way the Rising and falling pound was. If they know it is intentional and exploitation, then yes, they can penalize you for it. Jpuff players were harassed for it.

NESSBOUNDER, I love you again.

 

[Cort]

It. Won't. Ever. Get. Banned. Period.

 

[Tyr_03]

I think it SHOULD be banned.

But I'm doubting it will be. Just another reason to go back to Melee. In anycase it's no longer as gamebreaking as we once thought. It just means Lucas and Ness are resigned to the low tiers again most likely. Competitive Brawl sucks.

 

[Earthbound360]

i. do. not. care.

Besides, this thread can die now. Its been proven to be what it once was: Marth specific (and PT, but only 2/3)

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

I'm sorry, but this was a nub thing to say...It's called teching, and that's when Ness would be at a low percent. What you account for would not happen at a percent more than 50 simply because of the air speed that Ness would go.

And you offer lessons?

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
Do you even know what we are dealing with here?

I can post my sig again.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

It. Won't. Ever. Get. Banned. Period.

This is not something you can turn absolute Cort. The fact that the argument is holding some ground in discussion shows it very well might be banned. Stop making absolutes in your arguments or post and actually use your brain to debate or discuss something.

 

[slikvik]

This is not something you can turn absolute Cort. The fact that the argument is holding some ground in discussion shows it very well might be banned. Stop making absolutes in your arguments or post and actually use your brain to debate or discuss something.

No it won't get banned. scrubs are allowed to argue for bans. doesn't mean its going to happen

 

[WarranThad]

wobbling ban is the most ridiculous ban in any competitive game i've heard of.

if this gets banned smash is officially and finally relegated to joke total scrub game tier for life.

 

[munkus beaver]

This is not something you can turn absolute Cort. The fact that the argument is holding some ground in discussion shows it very well might be banned. Stop making absolutes in your arguments or post and actually use your brain to debate or discuss something.

I'll do what Cort won't then.

It's used by two characters in the spectrum. To ban it, you would punish those two characters based on the fact that theirs continues indefinitely whereas others don't.

 

[thesage]

Yeah, I don't think this should be banned. I only argued for the ban cuz I thought multiple characters could do this. It's only Marth and PT. I've never been grabbed by a PT except by Ivysaur (I now it's weird) and Marth is gay in general, which is why I'm picking up MK. All this does is make me have to pick up a third (which I was planning on already). I'm thinking Zelda against PT.

 

[Conda]

Just wait until every opponent you face who wants the 100$ grand prize chooses someone who can chaingrab-death your main, making your main useless. The only counter is to change characters to a non-cgabble one who stands a chance in hell, which proves that the 7 or so CGabble characters are garbage tier.

Notice this: grabbing is much more powerful a move than it was in melee. Shieldgrabbing makes avoiding getting grabbed near impossible.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna and Cort, you both have argued a lot about how you believe this in no way should be banned, correct? If you believe so, do you believe there is any slim chance that there is some random tactic out there that could help negate the extreme advantage a lot of characters have over Ness and Lucas now?

What does the first have to do with the 2nd? And I really don't think so because this game is so broken, you'll just have to live with it.

I know this sounds like I'm clinging on to too much hope and I am sorry about that. I just dont want Ness to become 'useless' in tournament play, simply put.

Why not? He was pretty useless in Melee.

Just wait until every opponent you face who wants the 100$ grand prize chooses someone who can chaingrab-death your main, making your main useless. The only counter is to change characters to a non-cgabble one who stands a chance in hell, which proves that the 7 or so CGabble characters are garbage tier.

Notice this: grabbing is much more powerful a move than it was in melee. Shieldgrabbing makes avoiding getting grabbed near impossible.

The game is broken. Live with it.

 

[slikvik]

I'm sorry, but this was a nub thing to say...It's called teching, and that's when Ness would be at a low percent. What you account for would not happen at a percent more than 50 simply because of the air speed that Ness would go.

And you offer lessons?

ur dum

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Why not? He was pretty useless in Melee.
.

Any character who could effectively stand up to Fox and Falco as well as many other higher-tier characters thanks to excellent aerial and combo ability, safe approaches and all around solid game, despite the high learning curve doesn't deserve that title thank you very much.

At least not in PAL version where Ness was much higher on the tier list thanks to no Sheik chain grab. And I consider the PAL version to be the superior, the most recent (melee edition) and therefore the best.

It always boggled me why it wasn't ever made the primary. PAL melee was so much more balanced.

 

[Cort]

gah @ smashboards

 

[Cort]

This is not something you can turn absolute Cort. The fact that the argument is holding some ground in discussion shows it very well might be banned. Stop making absolutes in your arguments or post and actually use your brain to debate or discuss something.

No, I'm right. You're wrong and just debating for the sake of debating. I don't feel like explaining why anymore considering if this were banned this ****ing stupid game would be even more of a joke in the eyes of regular competitive fighting game players. Also, cute thumbs down.

i. do. not. care.

Besides, this thread can die now. Its been proven to be what it once was: Marth specific (and PT, but only 2/3)

Many characters can just dash regrab or wait for you to pop out and then quick tilt/smash you.

I'm sorry, but this was a nub thing to say...It's called teching, and that's when Ness would be at a low percent. What you account for would not happen at a percent more than 50 simply because of the air speed that Ness would go.

And you offer lessons?

You're completely clueless and on top of it a flaming idiot.

ur dum

high five

Any character who could effectively stand up to Fox and Falco as well as many other higher-tier characters thanks to excellent aerial and combo ability, safe approaches and all around solid game, despite the high learning curve doesn't deserve that title thank you very much.

At least not in PAL version where Ness was much higher on the tier list thanks to no Sheik chain grab. And I consider the PAL version to be the superior, the most recent (melee edition) and therefore the best.

It always boggled me why it wasn't ever made the primary. PAL melee was so much more balanced.

No, he's useless. Everyone in that game could combo Fox/Falco. And he was horribly *****/gimped by every high tier, actually. Why would you want everyone to spend more money importing another copy of the game? I never really complained considering Peach was A LOT better in PAL, I even owned a PAL version myself... anyway, I wouldn't expect someone named NESSBOUNDER to understand though. >_<

also high five @ Yuna

 

[PK-ow!]

It always boggled me why it wasn't ever made the primary. PAL melee was so much more balanced.

Isn't it obvious? Because it was balanced.

 

[Silas06]

just don't play ness/lucas in a competitive scene or out of friendlies or in friendlies with a meaniehead LOL, theres really no point to argue anything in this thread, not like it can be argued. cort posted this to let you all know that ness/lucas have no point in being used in tournament anymore. a simple "thanks for the heads up" as opposed to "OMG NO NO NO BAN! BAN!" or thinking that there are tactics around it, would be the best thing honestly.

 

[Jam Stunna]

It seems to be becoming standard practice in the Smash community that whenever people see a technique they don't like, the first thing they call for is a ban. A ban is a LAST resort, not the first.

 

[Levitas]

Whenever a technique's preliminary testing indicates that 1/8 of the cas has a unique infinite one your character, and more than half can pull off a grab comboing into a kill move, It kinda makes people panic.

There aren't tactics around getting infinited whenever you get grabbed in certain matchups. And Jam, it's not that we don't like it, it's that if it existed in the state that we initially thought it did, it would be impossible to work around. Ness would be unusable against a large portion of the cast, and the matchup of Ness vs Marth is still pretty much an autowin for Marth. In fact, it's a much more steep auto win than Sheik on Bowser was in melee.

 

[DarkBlue]

I'm gonna quote you on that sometime, Stunna <_<

It's nice to see people calming down on the issue. 2 matchups down the drain doesn't hurt too much (:

 

[Yuna]

Whenever a technique's preliminary testing indicates that 1/8 of the cas has a unique infinite one your character, and more than half can pull off a grab comboing into a kill move, It kinda makes people panic.

There aren't tactics around getting infinited whenever you get grabbed in certain matchups. And Jam, it's not that we don't like it, it's that if it existed in the state that we initially thought it did, it would be impossible to work around. Ness would be unusable against a large portion of the cast, and the matchup of Ness vs Marth is still pretty much an autowin for Marth. In fact, it's a much more steep auto win than Sheik on Bowser was in melee.

But we never banned Sheik or her chaingrabs, now did we? So what if it would've made Lucas and Ness bottom tier? That's not enough to call for a ban! The game is programmed a certain way. Certain characters have weaknesses that make them useless in Competitive play.

Live with it, stick with your Bottom Tier character or switch to one who isn't Bottom Tier. Don't call for a ban to artifically boost your characters' performance when the game itself is clearly telling is they're Bottom Tier.

We never banned gimping Yoshi's 2nd jump despite doing so pretty much ensured his death.

 

[hoopspr226]

What is everyone's opinion on the following statement:

While the newly discovered info mitigates the damage by making it not truly infinite (Ness/Lucas are not unplayable, per say), the technique is still bad enough to drop these two characters a couple tiers lower than they would normally have been.

 

[Cerozero]

It may be sad but what Yuna is saying is true. Its not our job to try and "Fix" the game when a bunch of the cast can already do this, it's just how it is deal with it these things happen.

 

[Conda]

Please, Yuna is being an "authoritative" ******* again. We were panicking over half of the cast rendering Ness useless, and this should have been banned for the game's sake. It's not a case of "was this banned in melee?", it's a case of "should it be banned in brawl?" As I said before, chaingrabs in brawl are much better than they ever were in melee due to how easy it is to grab in brawl.
On top of that, Ness and Lucas are fine characters. Ness in melee sucked because ness sucked, not because of one exploit that rendered him useless. If ness really sucked against everyone just because of bad matchups, then fine, but if he was made useless only because of one exploit, then we are obviously going to fight for a ban so we can play ness again.

Now that we see that it's only marth and PT who can do this, it's a little different. Some are still fighting for a ban, but everyone has pretty much calmed down except for those avidly against Ness players.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

LoL, I don't think this drops them down any tiers if it only works with Marth and PT. If you know someone who mains one of those characters then don't pick Ness or Lucas. Also, call everybody you play on a double blind so they don't counter you on the first match. In addition, I don't know about you guys, even with this so called "infinite" which you can get out of (either by luck since you might luckily break out in the air, not common but DOES happen) or by DIing away and spot dodging/rolling, it just isn't enough for someone who doesn't main marth to beat my Ness.

Basically all it does is make Marth and PT MAINS beat Ness. Or at least someone who uses them a heck of alot. I DONT think someone can go "whoa you use Ness, i'm gonna go Marth" and beat you. Honestly, just spam forward air, space your PK fire, use your down air effectively and if they don't have good knowledge of Marth you will win the matchup. All it does is make it a real hard matchup for people proficient with Marth, you shoudln't be worrying about this making it so some random noob can beat you - its NOT going to happen.

The scenario of you facing a Marth main, and not knowing they were a Marth main (thereby prompting you to switch characters) is so rare that this doesn't bother me at all. I know the mains of everybody in my community, so If I know they can use Marth well I don't go Ness. And if it's a large tourny where you don't know people, and it's pools, just watch your opponents pool matches and see if they use Marth. Honestly, it's just a counter character.

Sorry I do not really respect PT enough to even care about him even if he can do this.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
It better not. 2 bad matchups shouldnt kill a character's tier placement.

 

[Warlock*G]

*Wario grabs Lucas*

*Lucas gets free*

*Wario Forward-Smashes*

*OOOOOH THE HUMANITY--Lucas explodes*

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
Wario can just do a dthrow and get the same results.

 

[Zema]

Dont tell me what to do in tournaments, buddy.

NESS AND LUCAS 4 TOP TI3R!

 

[Yuna]

Please, Yuna is being an "authoritative" ******* again. We were panicking over half of the cast rendering Ness useless, and this should have been banned for the game's sake. It's not a case of "was this banned in melee?", it's a case of "should it be banned in brawl?" As I said before, chaingrabs in brawl are much better than they ever were in melee due to how easy it is to grab in brawl.
On top of that, Ness and Lucas are fine characters. Ness in melee sucked because ness sucked, not because of one exploit that rendered him useless. If ness really sucked against everyone just because of bad matchups, then fine, but if he was made useless only because of one exploit, then we are obviously going to fight for a ban so we can play ness again.

Now that we see that it's only marth and PT who can do this, it's a little different. Some are still fighting for a ban, but everyone has pretty much calmed down except for those avidly against Ness players.

And again I bring up Laser Locks, Jab Locks and DeDeDe's infinite and chaingrabs. Did you think and crusade for those things to be banned?

I mean, sure, Laser Locks, Jab Locks and DeDeDe's infinite on most characters require a wall, but they're broken nonetheless. And it still leaves DeDeDe with an infinite and a very powerful chaingrab even without a wall on a small select number of characters.

Did you crusade for that to be banned as well? Did you even think it was broken? Or did you only start thinking so when one of your favourite characters got gimped by an infinite/chaingrab?

also high five @ Yuna

*blows kiss*

Any character who could effectively stand up to Fox and Falco as well as many other higher-tier characters thanks to excellent aerial and combo ability, safe approaches and all around solid game, despite the high learning curve doesn't deserve that title thank you very much.

At least not in PAL version where Ness was much higher on the tier list thanks to no Sheik chain grab. And I consider the PAL version to be the superior, the most recent (melee edition) and therefore the best.

It always boggled me why it wasn't ever made the primary. PAL melee was so much more balanced.

Pretty much everyone could "effectively combo Fox and Falco" in Melee. That's the price they paid for being fast fallers. Safe approaches and all-around solid game? Not really. At least not more than any other character generally speaking.

Ness is less gimpable in PAL because Falco's Dair doesn't spike during its entire animation, Sheik's chaingrab doesn't exist and Marth's Ken Combo is Meteor Cancelable. Doesn't mean he magically jumped up to Mid Tier. In the cosmic sense, he's still pretty useless. For one thing, he still gets easily ***** by the Tops and Highs.

Ness is not like Zelda, who had pretty good matchups against the Tops and Highs and was so low on the tierlist because pretty much every single Low Tier ***** her. Ness was bad because the higher ups beat him soundly into a bloody pulp.

Ness players have always been fighting an uphill battle. Don't try to change the rules so that your character will jump up in tier, play the game for what it is. If you pick a Low Tier, yay you. But don't think you're better than people who play higher tiers because your character takes "more skill" (a lot of people seem to think this, I've personally been told this by a Swedish Ness-player) or whine about how your character's a Low Tier.

Either stick with your Low Tier because you like them or switch because you don't (you might like their style and the character itself but dislike the way they play, as in that they suck). I don't pick characters based on how "cool" they are or look. I pick them based on how I like how they play (I just happen to naturally like to play characters that are fast and pretty good so I almost always end up choosing Top Tiers or High Tiers without even knowing what the tiers are).