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Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

MiraiGen

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
710
Unless I'm mistaken, this trick only works with Marth and Pit, right?

Okay, well then why don't Wolf/Falco/Fox players just insist upon Ness/Lucas having the PSI Magnet banned from tournaments because it locks them out of their blasters.

I know it's not the 100% same exact thing, but it's pretty much what you're asking. You're specifically asking Marth/Pit players to go at a disadvantage with a technique they discovered works against Ness/Lucas.

Besides; Ness mainers have pretty much been boned since Melee. I don't see how reapplying him to a lower tier harms him any more than you were used to.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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For ****'s sakes, Yuna, stop bringing up other chaingrabs and infinites. You're really starting to piss me off. You're in the Ness forums, in a thread discussing the chaingrab on Ness. Go to tactical discussion if you want to discuss chaingrabs in general.
This isn't about whether or not us Ness players are on a reighteous and non-hypocritical crusade. Stop trying to trivialize our arguments by saying "what about the other chaingrabs that you obviously aren't against?"
It'd be nice if you discuss this chaingrab, rather than telling us the rules of smash and the criteria required for an exploit to be banned.

Also, nobody cares about your opinion of Ness being low tier. You obviously know very little about Ness. The only reason he will be low tier is if people abuse this chaingrab, or his slow grab-release animation. We aren't changing the rules as to artificially rise Ness in the tier lists. Ness is very good. If MK was reduced to bottom tier because of some exploit, I would be totally for a ban on that exploit.

I don't believe characters should be reduced to garbage tier just because of one exploit. This makes the exploit banworthy, in my opinion. If the character sucks overall, then fine. But if they perfectly fine and only reduced to garbage tier thanks to one exploit -- be it a chaingrab, infinite, or whatnot -- then it should be looked into for a ban. There is no harm in it, other than crushing the worlds of the conservative and sheepish elites.

The result of Brawl's metagame may result in 6 characters being used, but it would be preferable if this happened due to true tiers, not avoidable exploits. There isn't a syndicate in control of brawl, and people should be more open to fixing Brawl on their own rather than waiting for patches that will never surface.
 

hoopspr226

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
279
Edrees:

But it isnt only two bad matchups, is it? Although other characters can't inifinite Ness/Lucas, they can follow it other deadly alternatives.

In my opinion, fox being able to get a free usmash every time he grabs and Snake getting a free ftilt every time he smashes changes the character matchup significantly.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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Unless I'm mistaken, this trick only works with Marth and Pit, right?

Okay, well then why don't Wolf/Falco/Fox players just insist upon Ness/Lucas having the PSI Magnet banned from tournaments because it locks them out of their blasters.

I know it's not the 100% same exact thing, but it's pretty much what you're asking. You're specifically asking Marth/Pit players to go at a disadvantage with a technique they discovered works against Ness/Lucas.

Besides; Ness mainers have pretty much been boned since Melee. I don't see how reapplying him to a lower tier harms him any more than you were used to.
PT, not Pit. You obviously know nothing of what you're trying to discuss.
Also, Ness was low tier in melee because he sucked.
Ness should be low tier in Brawl because he sucks, not because he's exploitable due to one exploit.
 

Yuna

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For ****'s sakes, Yuna, stop bringing up other chaingrabs and infinites. You're really starting to piss me off. You're in the Ness forums, in a thread discussing the chaingrab on Ness. Go to tactical discussion if you want to discuss chaingrabs in general.
This isn't about whether or not us Ness players are on a reighteous and non-hypocritical crusade. Stop trying to trivialize our arguments by saying "what about the other chaingrabs that you obviously aren't against?"
It'd be nice if you discuss this chaingrab, rather than telling us the rules of smash and the criteria required for an exploit to be banned.
Why? It's perfectly relevant to the discussion at hand.

If you want this banned, then you must be able to come up with good reasons for it to be banned (so far, very few have been brought up). You must also be able to explain why you're not against banning certain other things that yield almost and sometimes the exact same results. Some people just don't care about them, but some specifically say "They shouldn't be banned, just this one".

And how does it not make you a hypocrite?

Also, nobody cares about your opinion of Ness being low tier. You obviously know very little about Ness. The only reason he will be low tier is if people abuse this chaingrab, or his slow grab-release animation. We aren't changing the rules as to artificially rise Ness in the tier lists. Ness is very good. If MK was reduced to bottom tier because of some exploit, I would be totally for a ban on that exploit.
You obviously know nothing about the English language. I said Ness was Low Tier in Brawl when? We are changing the rules to articifically bloat Ness' Competitive viability if we're banning tactics, strategies and/or combos that work specifically only on him. The game was programmed in a way which lets us gimp him specifically. Banning it is rewriting the rules to suit him.

I don't believe characters should be reduced to garbage tier just because of one exploit. This makes the exploit banworthy, in my opinion. If the character sucks overall, then fine. But if they perfectly fine and only reduced to garbage tier thanks to one exploit -- be it a chaingrab, infinite, or whatnot -- then it should be looked into for a ban. There is no harm in it, other than crushing the worlds of the conservative and sheepish elites.
You believe, your opinion. The Competitive Smash Community + the other communities of the world do not believe in this same thing, apparently.

The result of Brawl's metagame may result in 6 characters being used, but it would be preferable if this happened due to true tiers, not avoidable exploits. There isn't a syndicate in control of brawl, and people should be more open to fixing Brawl on their own rather than waiting for patches that will never surface.
How is this different than some characters being susceptible to certain combos while others are not? And how is this any different than DeDeDe? Answer that first and foremost.
 

Earthbound360

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Lol Miraigen
Roy was low in Melee, so Ike being low shouldnt hurt much should it?

Like I said, this is PORVEN FLASE. This can die now.
And Cort, you are wrong, Ulev specifically said that Ness and Lucas can escape whatever follow up with a dodge or jab. I just asked.
 

DiasFlac

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 3, 2008
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442
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This sucks but I'll still main Ness. Thanks for the heads up tho. I'll do whatever I can get stay away from a grab but after playing so many good players. I know how hard that is.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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And it's not like the death-hits from the grabs are worth worrying too much about. Yes, it's nasty that Fox can get a free up smash from a grab, but hey, Ness can do just as much damage with a simple dtilt trip to bat combo. That comes out in under 5 frames and has a 50% trip rate and is guaranteed to cause a lot of pain. Fox's pummel grab to up smash ultimately relates to much the same thing, except it's unblockable.

Ness also KOs Fox earlier than Fox can KO him, and out prioritises a lot of his moves. So I don't think this is too much of a problem.

As for the infinites, all that means is that Ness and Lucas players will need to learn how to lead with their secondary mains.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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lol at comparing a dtilt-to-smash to a grab-to-smash.
I found it funny.
A lot of characters can abuse Ness's grab-release lag, and seeing how ridiculously easy it is to grab in brawl, this will pose a problem once people catch on to this exploit.
 

KiteDXX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
116
You're missing a key point here.

This technique doesn't break the game by any means; it only reduces the usability of 2 of 39 characters in the game. It will not get banned, there are no legitimate reasons why it should be banned, and the only problem here is that it was programmed with flaws that are not within our control. If the character's programming is why they're terrible in the game, it's left at that. We don't try to make characters better or more usable by banning things, especially things that affect gameplay options as trivial as grabbing someone.

It doesn't matter how harsh the death grab is; only 2 characters are affected. If they're no longer usable, you will have to either not use them, or you will have to deal with the consequences of using a clearly flawed character. Your crusade is sadly futile, and BRoomers have already said no to this discussion of a ban already. I don't like this either, but you're getting out of hand with how much power you think you have over the issue.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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You're missing a key point here.

This technique doesn't break the game by any means; it only reduces the usability of 2 of 39 characters in the game. It will not get banned, there are no legitimate reasons why it should be banned, and the only problem here is that it was programmed with flaws that are not within our control. If the character's programming is why they're terrible in the game, it's left at that. We don't try to make characters better or more usable by banning things, especially things that affect gameplay options as trivial as grabbing someone.

It doesn't matter how harsh the death grab is; only 2 characters are affected. If they're no longer usable, you will have to either not use them, or you will have to deal with the consequences of using a clearly flawed character. Your crusade is sadly futile, and BRoomers have already said no to this discussion of a ban already. I don't like this either, but you're getting out of hand with how much power you think you have over the issue.
Oh come on now. A ban on this technique wouldn't effect the option to grab in any way.

Tell me, how often do you see people in real matches grabbing their opponents, hitting them repeatedly, and then trying to grab again immediately after? It doesn't work on any other character, and therefore nobody does it. People will only make this special exception for Ness/Lucas. You're acting as if smash won't be able to go on if you're not allowed to take advantage of a clear mistake in Ness or Lucas's animations.

What's more, this technique can be used as a stalling tactic, and those are banned officially I believe.

Either way, it's not as big of a problem as originally thought, especially in Lucas's case. And therefore it doesn't need to be banned.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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@ kite
I'm pretty sure many characters are affected by grab-release chains (Marth, PT, and Yoshi can perform them, with Yoshi affecting more characters), along with regular chaingrabs (d3, etc).
Heck, the entire cast is affected by IC's chaingrabs.

Just thought you should broaden your views and understand that the ease of grabbing in brawl, along with the chaingrabs of certain characters, goes far beyond the Marth/PT chaingrab on Ness/Lucas.
 

Yuna

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@ kite
I'm pretty sure many characters are affected by grab-release chains (Marth, PT, and Yoshi can perform them, with Yoshi affecting more characters), along with regular chaingrabs (d3, etc).
Heck, the entire cast is affected by IC's chaingrabs.

Just thought you should broaden your views and understand that the ease of grabbing in brawl, along with the chaingrabs of certain characters, goes far beyond the Marth/PT chaingrab on Ness/Lucas.
You're pretty sure? From what? Guessing?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard, seen or done anything to indicate that Marth, PT and Yoshi can do grab-release chains on anyone but Ness and Lucas (because of the way it works on them). AFAIK, Grab Release chaining (and even comboing) only works (or quite possibly is only effective) on those two, no one else.

You should really check up on the facts before arguing your brains out and flaming people because according to your guesswork, their facts are wrong (you didn't flame KiteXD, but you've flamed others).
 

Smashbros_7

Smash Ace
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Messages
724
You're pretty sure? From what? Guessing?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard, seen or done anything to indicate that Marth, PT and Yoshi can do grab-release chains on anyone but Ness and Lucas (because of the way it works on them). AFAIK, Grab Release chaining (and even comboing) only works (or quite possibly is only effective) on those two, no one else.

You should really check up on the facts before arguing your brains out and flaming people because according to your guesswork, their facts are wrong (you didn't flame KiteXD, but you've flamed others).
Sup Yuna! Didn't notice you here!

How's it hanging?
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
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How can you not notice Yuna? Can't you see all those Facts and pessimism floating around in the air? :p

I'm joking I'm joking. Either way, I'm just glad that this whole thing didn't turn out as bad as I'd originally thought. Well at least not for Lucas anyway.
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
712
Yuna said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard, seen or done anything to indicate that Marth, PT and Yoshi can do grab-release chains on anyone but Ness and Lucas (because of the way it works on them). AFAIK, Grab Release chaining (and even comboing) only works (or quite possibly is only effective) on those two, no one else.
Yoshi can actually do this on seven other characters by dash grabbing, and he does not even need to dash grab against Wario, so he has a semi-infinite in the same sense that Marth does against Ness.

(I'm not necessarily agreeing with anything Conda has said by posting this.)
 

Yuna

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Yoshi can actually do this on seven other characters by dash grabbing, and he does not even need to dash grab against Wario, so he has a semi-infinite in the same sense that Marth does against Ness.

(I'm not not necessarily agreeing with anything Conda has said by posting this.)
I stand corrected. Conda was still wrong in that this affected "so many" as only Yoshi can do this on people other than Ness and Lucas. Yoshi's grab is still among the slowest in Brawl, though.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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lol first time I've seen Yuna admit to being wrong. Atleast it was followed up by a so and so "was still wrong" though.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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I stand corrected. Conda was still wrong in that this affected "so many" as only Yoshi can do this on people other than Ness and Lucas. Yoshi's grab is still among the slowest in Brawl, though.
I said that Marth/PT's chaingrab, Dedede's chaingrabs, and Yoshi's chaingrabs together result in a good amount of the cast being affected by chaingrabs. This doesn't take ICs into account.
 

Yuna

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You said many characters are affected by grad-release chains. These are not the same as chaingrabs/chainthrows.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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You said many characters are affected by grad-release chains. These are not the same as chaingrabs/chainthrows.
I said many characters are affected by grab-release chains andalso chaingrabs. Not sure what you're getting at. Not to mention I clarified my view by saying that the chaingrabbing situation breathes far beyond the Ness/Lucas grab-release chain.

There's more grab-release chains and chaingrabs than the Ness/Lucas one, and grabs in general are very easy to pull off, thus elevating the brawl chaingrab situation above the melee chaingrab situation.
 

Rapid_Assassin

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I don't think the game would be dominated by Yoshi's grab release on those 7 characters. Until we start seeing Yoshi beat Metaknights because of it or something...
 

LavisFiend

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IF this is TRULY as bad as it sounds, then that means I need to really go back to Olimar and work on him.

However, I think the majority of you are just overreacting and speaking in absolutes.

If it begins to happen CONSISTENTLY, and you happen to lose match after match because of that CONSISTENTLY, then I see where you can complain.

But if it hasn't happened yet, then don't worry about it. I am just tired of the pointless bellyaching. You should only worry about this if it begins to happen to you, and on a consistent level.

Besides, you act like you can't avoid grabs. Just get the jump on them first and don't give them any downtime to ATTEMPT a grab.
 

Kink-Link5

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I may not be up-to-date on the current Brawl metagame, but this sounds a lot like DK's cargo hijinx in the original, which were considered a stalling tactic and banned in tourneys for such a condition.

Simple solution- cut down the time limit of matches by a minute or so. It isn't like there are too many matches that go the whole set anyway.

Or perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way.
 

carbonlifeform

Smash Rookie
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May 8, 2008
Messages
4
After a good two years of lurking around this place, this ridiculous discussion was finally enough to make me register so I could say this:

Welcome to the wonderful world of competitive gaming. The day everyone can play a game competitively in their ideal fashion is the day hell freezes over. There will always be factors built into the game that make some characters or styles dominant and some worthless, and if you want to play the game in a competitive environment, you just need to get used to it. Most of the cast isn't going to be considered tournament viable (except as counter picks) by the time the game has been out a couple of years no matter what. May as well learn why your favorite character is on the list now and not get used to living in some fantasy world were Ness will actually be winning tournaments.

I doubt most of you are terrible familiar with the Armored Core series, but that's the last (and only) online scene I was ever around. It's a series that pretty much epitomizes this simple fact. In the later PS2 installments, there were only a handful of styles that were truly viable for high level competitive play. The people who were generally considered the best at the game personally didn't like these styles, so they started promoting excessive bans for tournament play in an effort to "give everybody a chance". It killed the scene, because all it did was force people to play a game other than the one they were presented with. It made them mentally redress everything, and it allowed only a handful of people - instead of styles - to be truly competitive.

What's happening here obviously isn't so extreme, but just because you dislike the end results of this specific fact of the game, you're looking to pretend it doesn't exist in an attempt to let you play the game the way you want to - not the way the game needs to be played to be played competitively. What's more, you're showing a serious lack of gratitude to those people who host tournaments by insisting that enforcing this ban would be easy. Guess what? It wouldn't. It would cause debate and arguments, it would spawn differing interpretations and implementations across different events, and would in general by a pain. If they don't implement a ban, what happens, Ness and Lucas mains don't go to the event? That's not a real loss for the hosts; it's just you denying yourself the experience.

As for the people claiming that tying this in with other infinites and character specific exploits is irrelevant are burying their heads in the sand. The point is that Brawl is fundamentally flawed from a tournament-goer's perspective. If you want to "fix" one problem, you need to step onto the slippery slope, which leads to "fixing" all of them. This creates even more hassle for everybody involved, and we're really just better off playing the game we have, not a version redressed by the fans. If it doesn't work, it will die. Maybe people will go back to Melee, maybe Smash will just become less iconic in the competitive scene. Either way, people will still have fun playing it in their living rooms where victory isn't of the chief concern.

I'd also just like to note that I think it's really ironic that just a couple of weeks ago, EB360 was promoting Ness' jab locking abilities...not to mention people constantly bringing up dtilt tripping (tripping being another mechanic that I can't imagine tournament goers being happy with, even if it does affect everybody).

Just one final note, this is coming from a Ness main, just so you don't assume that I have no reason to care.
 

carbonlifeform

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
4
^^^^Virtual on>Armored core.
Agreed, but they're also completely different styles of game. AC, for me and many others, was about the building as much as or more than the combat.

That also has nothing to do with the chief point of the post.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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After a good two years of lurking around this place, this ridiculous discussion was finally enough to make me register so I could say this:

Welcome to the wonderful world of competitive gaming. The day you can play a game competitively in your ideal fashion is the day hell freezes over. There will always be factors built into the game that make some characters or styles dominant and some worthless, and if you want to play the game in a competitive environment, you just need to get used to it. Most of the cast isn't going to be considered tournament viable (except as counter picks) by the time the game has been out a couple of years no matter what. May as well learn why your favorite character is on the list now and not get used to living in some fantasy world were Ness will actually be winning tournaments.

I doubt most of you are terrible familiar with the Armored Core series, but that's the last (and only) online scene I was ever around. It's a series that pretty much epitomizes this simple fact. In the later PS2 installments, there were only a handful of styles that were truly viable for high level competitive play. The people who were generally considered the best at the game personally didn't like these styles, so they started promoting excessive bans for tournament play in an effort to "give everybody a chance". It killed the scene, because all it did was force people to play a game other than the one they were presented with. It made them mentally redress everything, and it allowed only a handful of people - instead of styles - to be truly competitive.

What's happening here obviously isn't so extreme, but just because you dislike the end results of this specific fact of the game, you're looking to pretend it doesn't exist in an attempt to let you play the game the way you want to - not the way the game needs to be played to be played competitively. What's more, you're showing a serious lack of gratitude to those people who host tournaments by insisting that enforcing this ban would be easy. Guess what? It wouldn't. It would cause debate and arguments, it would spawn differing interpretations and implementations across different events, and would in general by a pain. If they don't implement a ban, what happens, Ness and Lucas mains don't go to the event? That's not a real loss for the hosts; it's just you denying yourself the experience.

As for the people claiming that tying this in with other infinites and character specific exploits is irrelevant are burying their heads in the sand. The point is that Brawl is fundamentally flawed from a tournament-goer's perspective. If you want to "fix" one problem, you need to step onto the slippery slope, which leads to "fixing" all of them. This creates even more hassle for everybody involved, and we're really just better off playing the game we have, not a version redressed by the fans. If it doesn't work, it will die. Maybe people will go back to Melee, maybe Smash will just become less iconic in the competitive scene. Either way, people will still have fun playing it in their living rooms where victory isn't of the chief concern.

I'd also just like to note that I think it's really ironic that just a couple of weeks ago, EB360 was promoting Ness' jab locking abilities...not to mention people constantly bringing up dtilt tripping (tripping being another mechanic that I can't imagine tournament goers being happy with, even if it does affect everybody).

Just one final note, this is coming from a Ness main, just so you don't assume that I have no reason to care.
Jab locking is something that is so easy to avoid, that if it happens, the other player deserves it. Not like grabbing.

Dtilt tripping is not like normal tripping because it's within a character's control, and is intended as part of the attack's properties. The only tripping that most tourney goers dislike is the random kind that happens when you dash.
 

carbonlifeform

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
4
Jab locking is something that is so easy to avoid, that if it happens, the other player deserves it. Not like grabbing.

Dtilt tripping is not like normal tripping because it's within a character's control, and is intended as part of the attack's properties. The only tripping that most tourney goers dislike is the random kind that happens when you dash.
First of all, you're still only attacking a secondary point and ignoring the main one.

As for your comments, Just because its avoidable, that doesn't mean it isn't annoying or a cheap abuse of something that probably wasn't intended by the game designers. Trying to differentiate between one broken technique and another based on situation is silly. It wouldn't be any harder to ban laser or jab locking than infinite holds, and it would remove the potential for abuse of a game feature that's just as ridiculous.

As for tripping, 50% chance is still random. Removing random factors from the game will always benefit the more skilled players.
 

Masky

Smash Master
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Dec 16, 2007
Messages
3,665
Comparing Ness's dtilt to Marth's infinite release grab... Are you sure you're a Ness main??
 

Lord Aether

Smash Apprentice
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May 2, 2008
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199
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Ellicott City, Maryland
As for your comments, Just because its avoidable, that doesn't mean it isn't annoying or a cheap abuse of something that probably wasn't intended by the game designers. Trying to differentiate between one broken technique and another based on situation is silly. It wouldn't be any harder to ban laser or jab locking than infinite holds, and it would remove the potential for abuse of a game feature that's just as ridiculous.
What is your point? You're just mentioning the infinites as cheap, but cheap doesn't matter if it helps us win.

As for tripping, 50% chance is still random. Removing random factors from the game will always benefit the more skilled players.
That's the POINT ~_~
 
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