Dskank's D3 general strategy thread.

[KingJames]

Could someone critique my gameplay of d3 -www.youtube.com/watch?v=q64aXJrhZSk&list=UU6bchfxuxGW5Y17wryBBuRQ

 

[Jabejazz]

Could someone critique my gameplay of d3 -www.youtube.com/watch?v=q64aXJrhZSk&list=UU6bchfxuxGW5Y17wryBBuRQ

A lot of what I'm going to say, you could reply by : "but it worked for me". Truth be told, the Shulk isn't really amazing.

-Too much use of your Side B. Shulk doesn't punish you for it, but he very well could. See your gordos as a tool to limit your opponent's options (like for recovery or approach). In neutral, gordos are extremely ineffective.

-Your aerial approach is too predictable. 95% of it can be punished with a shield grab. In fact, TripleD is terrible approaching from the air. Ideally you'll fly to avoid most of you enemy projectiles, enough to get in midrange. You shouldn't land with an aerial on your enemy. This is easily punishable because it's too slow and everyone and their mother can react to it.

-UpBing on the platform is dangerous, this is also extremely easily punishable. It works as a mind game tool, but ideally recover low and snap the ledge with UpB. It's safe, and it's easy.

Sadly, this is only from the first 5 minutes I watched. Youtube isn't able to load more for me for the time being, I'll update this if I managed to see more.

God, I am so close to dropping DDD after about 700 for glory matches.

Issues: Side B almost useless against good players
Every gordo gets bounced back by everything, so the move is almost worse than nothing. Throwing it out in all but a tiny number of situations results in a ton of damage to DDD's face, a large knock back, and complete loss of any control/momentum.

As mentioned above, Gordo isn't a tool to use in the neutral game. Which seems like what you're doing.

Issue: Without side B, he is forced to approach, but he moves like a blimp in the air and bowser on the ground
He's not like captain falcon or other close range specialists. Nothing I've done seems to put me even on equal ground with projectile users. I'm basically forced to deal with all of their tools while I am limited to almost exclusively shield grabs.

You can camp in the air for a while, avoiding projectiles and close the gap.
And as I said, Dash canceling to shield is great. Use it.

Issue: Inconsistent grab follow ups.
I thought his grab game was great at first, but now I think it's just ok. Follow ups feel like guess work against competent opposition when DDD really needs true combos out of Dthrow to equal other character options

It's true, our grab game is inconsistent. It's however kinda easy to have at least one followup after a down throw on most of the cast. Past a certain %, you'll fthrow or bthrow off-stage anyway.

Issue: Rolls, but not roll spam
His ability to punish rolls feels awful. Dsmash works against very predictable people, but nothing seems to work except a hard read on roll and a hard read on the timing of the roll when the opponent isn't stupid.

We do require a harder read on rolls than some, but dash attack is a great punish against a roll nonetheless.

It just feels impossible to approach with any aerial being shielded and punished on the landing lag, and ground attacks being halted by projectiles, and then even when you get it right it's hard to keep the offense going with his mobility.

See above.

 

[Palmerfan]

Adding on to what Jabejazz said, you dtilted a lot which Shulk punished. If you're in grab range, just grab him, you'll get a better punish.

 

[Sweet™]

It's so simple to condition and combo people. Dthrow nair at sub 20%. Then dthrow fair. Depending on the character they can start air dodging out. To remedy this against heavier characters is to dthrow charge upsmash. They'll air dodge. Boom.

I plan on contributing a LOT to this board, and the character as a whole. :^)

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Also of note, I think that D3's aerial approach options are better than we are making them out to be. I've had a lot of success moving in from high up, out of projectile range, and mixing up FF Nairs into Utilt (which beats most shield drop options) or into grab (which beats staying in the shield), and if they are consistenly shield grabbing my aerials, then I'll drop in on them with an Inhale, which will beat their shield or a spotdodge. Some will try and roll to escape from that mixup, but if they roll towards you you can punish on reaction with a FF Nair, and if they roll away you've gained some ground, and they can't roll away or retreat when they are pushed to the edge of the stage. Additionally, from that situation where I'm moving in while floating from high is where I've been using Gordos most. If you're above them and they are prepared to shield a FF aerial, they probably won't be able to knock it back it, and if they do, it will probably be hit under you. If they just shield then you can drop to the ground into a solid stage position, and maybe poke with a spaced Ftilt or something.

 

[Percentful]

I've had a lot of success with Gordos simply by using them knowing that they aren't safe as typical projectiles. I prefer to bounce them up most of the time, slowly walking underneath. That way, they a) stay out longer b) give you more time if someone tries to bounce you back c) can be combined with other moves like Dtit to keep you pretty safe.

Also, gordos have amazing potential for edgeguarding if you bounce them so they just barely fall past the stage - they very catch people trying to grab the ledge. I've had it work multiple times, and against characters with predictable recovery it can really limit their options.

 

[Sweet™]

Also, gordos have amazing potential for edgeguarding if you bounce them so they just barely fall past the stage - they very catch people trying to grab the ledge. I've had it work multiple times, and against characters with predictable recovery it can really limit their options.

This. DDD can't do much about characters that "abuse" recovering low, but the Gordo can. Putting the Gordo down there is definitely going to either A.) hit them or B.) condition them to not recover low so we have an opportunity to throw ourselves off with a bair.

 

[Jabejazz]

This. DDD can't do much about characters that "abuse" recovering low,.

Depends what you mean by that. 'Cause fast falling aerials for a stage spike is a thing against people recovering low.

snip

Aerials mix ups are good when you've learned the habits of your opponent. If you know he'll shield grab your aerials most of the time, then yes, FF Nair to UTtilt is amazing. Also it varies depending on the character. ZSS, with a frame 1 jab, will beat most of our options, except inhale, so she'll be looking for that.

In the end, it's a more or less effective mind game.

I feel it is a risky commitment. Your opponent technically is in a superior position by not doing anything and waiting for your move.

Aerials gordos are great to cover your landing though.

 

[Sweet™]

Depends what you mean by that. 'Cause fast falling aerials for a stage spike is a thing against people recovering low.

Like, for example, every Zelda I've played recovers from suuuuper low and snaps right to the ledge.

Maybe that's just me, though. I've been focusing more on the onstage game since I've only been able to do For Glory mode.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Depends what you mean by that. 'Cause fast falling aerials for a stage spike is a thing against people recovering low.


Aerials mix ups are good when you've learned the habits of your opponent. If you know he'll shield grab your aerials most of the time, then yes, FF Nair to UTtilt is amazing. Also it varies depending on the character. ZSS, with a frame 1 jab, will beat most of our options, except inhale, so she'll be looking for that.

In the end, it's a more or less effective mind game.

I feel it is a risky commitment. Your opponent technically is in a superior position by not doing anything and waiting for your move.

Aerials gordos are great to cover your landing though.

It might have to do with the skill level of the players I've been going against, but I haven't played against anyone who can deal with that sort of aerial approach consistently, and like I also said, even if I'm worried I can use an aerial gordo to cover my landing and then try and get in from a different angle. But even still, one of the big benefits of a multi-jump character is that it allows you to adjust when you're coming in from up high. There's the risk of you dropping in on your opponent after each jump, which makes it very difficult for them to time when to use an anti-air if they have one, which also limits their options further. And it's difficult to do online, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to bair the shield of someone waiting on the ground for you and then consistently jump away without needing to touch the ground, which is a safer way to condition them to shield so you can punish with a FF grab or Inhale.

 

[Jabejazz]

Like, for example, every Zelda I've played recovers from suuuuper low and snaps right to the ledge.

Maybe that's just me, though. I've been focusing more on the onstage game since I've only been able to do For Glory mode.

Our edguarding being our strongest asset, I think it should be our main focus. You can chase people recovering low, land a couple aerials and easily get back on the stage, whether you hit or not.

There's the risk of you dropping in on your opponent after each jump, which makes it very difficult for them to time when to use an anti-air if they have one, which also limits their options further.

It's possible to bait anti-air moves while floating slightly above them. Creates the risk of being juggled for free, but it's an approach option. Definitely a case-by-case one.

And it's difficult to do online, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to bair the shield of someone waiting on the ground for you and then consistently jump away without needing to touch the ground, which is a safer way to condition them to shield so you can punish with a FF grab or Inhale.

This is true, we can usually safely land aerials while staying airborne to poke shields.

A well landed bair has enough strength to push shields back, meaning a campy player on the edge of the stage will fall off, giving us stage control.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Been playing around with bouncing gordos in the lab. Since it's a custom move I can't test in For Glory, but just some things I noticed:

These are basically trap gordos. What I mean is, they bounce back and forth, and if you hit them in specific places they can hug real close to the ground. Additionally, they're way easier to stick to walls than regular gordos. Of course they can be knocked back by anything that beats the regular gordo, so that's still an issue.

With the regular ones, you can bounce them pretty much strictly vertically. These always bounce back and forth, angling only changes the height and arc of the bounce. I think not being able to create a "wall" hurts the utility a bit, but at the same time we can fling these off stage much further than the normal ones. I think these are better but not THAT much better.

Also, dash jet hammer is as fun as I had hoped. I think it's a bit weaker than regular hammer but I'd argue it's much better for spacing. Haven't tried out the other specials much, but I don't really like rising Dedede jump as much as default.

 

[T4ylor]

I've found Rising Dedede to be significantly better than default, because you can combo it off of D throw at higher percentages and can even KO off the top with it. I believe you can also D throw into the Electric Gordos at around 70-80% (lower too, but you can normally fair/bair then), because of their high arc. But I found the default Gordo toss to have much more utility. It just feels like you have so much more control over them.

 

[Sweet™]

Besides throwing Gordos at the up angle so they don't go as far horizontally, what moves do we have that can hit the ledge without leaving the stage?

I've been trying to find something, but nothing yet so far.

I think DDD is going to be in the top five characters that get a huge buff by being able to use a GameCube controller. Maybe that's just me.

Also, spit into up air is a nice psedu-combo that you guys should look into if you haven't already.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dtilt works at the ledge, but you gotta be on top of it. I find stuffing folks coming off of the ledge with ftilt works.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TZA]

Any tips vs. Sonic?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Any tips vs. Sonic?

Pray.

Pray that the Sonic player screws up just about everything he does on-stage. You are going to have a helluva time trying to chase this character down. Keep the gap closed as much as you can and whiff punish whatever you can whenever you can. Use Gordos only when you think he's committed to regular movement (e.g. dash, walk), or otherwise try to hit him while he's vulnerable spindashing around. Grab him when you can and follow up hard. Get that blue rodent off-stage asap.

This match up makes me cringe.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Karthage]

Any tips vs. Sonic?

I spend almost the entire match in shield and look for openings. I find it just a tad easier than keepaway matches because while both matchups are very defensive, at least when sonic has an opening he's right there in your face or somewhat vulnerable to an uair.

I find sonic doesn't grab that often, and is vulnerable to attacks if he does go for a grab.

 

[fooloo]

Dedede plays so passive in this game.

I really don't understand why they made his gordo so easily counterable. Even mario's fireball knocks back his gordo, which makes 0 sense

 

[dskank]

yo d3s, sorry i havent updated in a while, ive been super busy and havent really had time for smash. but i will be posting a lot of stuff over the course of the week. rock on d3 mains.

 

[fooloo]

I hope you have something good because i'm suffering with him T.T

 

[Karthage]

I hope you have something good because i'm suffering with him T.T

I've found he's the grappler of this game.

Slow to approach and heavy on throws. That's the only way I've been able to beat the better players I've found.

The gordo exists mainly to give you free wins against weak players.

Has anyone found any use for neutral B and down B? I never, ever use them ever.

 

[dean.]

i find neutral B incredibly useful. having an air move that beats shields is invaluable and i find it to be his most reliable landing option in this game.

jet hammer is trash though

 

[XakYm]

When playing For Glory I feel as if people don't realize they can just smack gordo back to me. I think its usefulness will kind of decrease once people figure that out. Though right now I'm getting a lot more value out of the move than I initially expected.

What you do is Vertical Gordo and from close range

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What you do is Vertical Gordo and from close range

...then they mash and knock it back at you. Maybe you'll get lucky and hit them with the hammer hitbox before that happens, but chances are, you're better off approaching without the Gordo sometimes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[XakYm]

jet hammer is trash though

Jet Hammer is predictable sure but what happens when your oppenent dodges that vertical gordo and you're charging the jet hammer? Also pivoting left and right with the jet hammer can make your opponent nervous when recovering back to the stage from the air.

 

[XakYm]

...then they mash and knock it back at you. Maybe you'll get lucky and hit them with the hammer hitbox before that happens, but chances are, you're better off approaching without the Gordo sometimes.

Smooth Criminal

That's my point, its truly the hammer's hitbox that you need, fast fall then immediately jump back with a Bair. I use the vertical gordo for mind games not mainly for attacks. what can happen is
A. They get hit
B. They air Dodge it
C. They hit it back

For B. while they're too busy dodging the gordo you're waiting for them with a grab or whatever attacks you're planning.
C. You can try to hit it back which I've never done so before but it is possible or dodge it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I dunno. I mean, I'm guilty of doing what you're talking about sometimes with the Gordo mixups, but it's definitely high risk/middling reward. When it works, it's great, but when it doesn't, it can be pretty bad.

Smooth Criminal

 

[XakYm]

Besides throwing Gordos at the up angle so they don't go as far horizontally, what moves do we have that can hit the ledge without leaving the stage?
/quote]
dash attack, Fsmash or Ftilt test all of them

 

[Jabejazz]

Has anyone found any use for neutral B and down B? I never, ever use them ever.

Neutral B is amazing. B-reversals are great.
Down B is trash, however. We do get an amazing custom with the super armor one, which will probably means an easier approach game.

Also pivoting left and right with the jet hammer can make your opponent nervous when recovering back to the stage from the air.

We have better edguarding options than down B for sure, as in, all of our aerials. Down special is gimmicky at best without customs.

 

[dskank]

ok, finished my exams/work week today. havent played smash in about a week, need some good matches for inspiration.

anyone want to play a few sets?

my friend code : 2122 7623 0523

 

[Cook]

So, I've been playing a lot on the allisbrawl ladder. And DDD's grab range nerf is so sad.

 

[MetalPat]

is there anyway we could get this as a sticky thread? i feel that the first couple posts have some good points that should be easily accessible to all people learning or mastering D3

 

[Jabejazz]

Been messing around with custom moves.

Rising Dedede is really fun. It's actually a potential OoS option, something we don't really have (there's jab, but ours come out kinda slowly, compared to ZSS' frame 1). I really like it. Quick Dedede Jump is...meh? I don't know, I really don't see the use. On a hard read you could spike people easily with it, I guess.

I feel Rising Dedede is a slightly better option.

I was skeptical about Taste Test, since we can't really Regicide anymore with it. But it further strengthen our edge guarding game.
They get spit so far away, a lot of the cast will have a pretty hard time making it back. Plus, it deals a bit more damage. Dedede storm is peculiar; has niche uses on people hanging on the ledge, otherwise, I don't really see it as a good option.

Inhale/Taste Test are both really good; I still like using vanilla so I can decide where I can spit my opponent, and for Regicide purposes.

Dash Jet Hammer is actually very interesting. All 3 of them are gimmicky for sure, but DJH has the benefit of giving us an interesting movement option airborne. Also creates a downward diagonal hitbox that can beat quite a few options when properly spaced. It's definitely not the missing piece we're looking for our approach game, but it's something.

Probably a lot more useful than vanilla, and I don't see much use with Armored Jet Hammer; you have super armor, but are in such a terrible position, I have a really hard time seeing this helping our approach game. And it's extremely weak uncharged, it yields very minimal rewards for stuffing an attack with super armor and retaliating with Jet Hammer.

I need more time to judge Bouncing Gordo, but so far, I'm really not impressed. You can't play with angles as much as the vanilla version, because their base bounce is ridiculously high; I frequently throw one that bounces off-stage. It's also much weaker.
I feel they're much harder to deal with than Vanilla, but that's probably circumvented with proper practice, so I wouldn't bet on that.

Topspin is the ultimate gimmick; I know I'd destroy everyone I meet online with Topspin Gordos. It's really bad, past that point.

 

[Lavani]

Rising Dedede is really fun. It's actually a potential OoS option, something we don't really have
[...]
I need more time to judge Bouncing Gordo, but so far, I'm really not impressed. You can't play with angles as much as the vanilla version, because their base bounce is ridiculously high; I frequently throw one that bounces off-stage. It's also much weaker.
I feel they're much harder to deal with than Vanilla, but that's probably circumvented with proper practice, so I wouldn't bet on that.

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but is there any reason we'd want to use Rising Dedede over usmash OoS? They both come out around 16f (eyeballing it, might be off by a frame or two) and usmash both has more KO power and doesn't put you in helpless 80 feet in the air. Though, one fun thing I'm noticing with it onstage, dthrow>Rising Dedede is a KO combo at 120% vs Ness. At any rate, I think it'd largely be the best option for Dedede's upB considering it gives him offensive presence when recovering low and he rarely wants to land onstage anyway. (Though I also rather like doing the default upB backwards to not grab the ledge and surprise opponents every now and again.)

Bouncing Gordo feels like the "safe" Gordo to me. It can be thrown much higher and farther than standard Gordos, letting you catch opponents recovering high as well as helping out in campier matchups (up angled Gordo goes over half of FD and will fly over projectiles with ease). Its predictable trajectory means you aren't going to have it sent flying back in your face, too. It also has a longer lifespan than standard gordos, meaning you can control part of the stage with them and even do combos off of them (i.e. bair into gordo>uair). Default Gordos still have their merits, and which one is better would be entirely up to matchup and player preference imo.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's also a lot easier for the opponent to "tap" the Bouncing Gordos. Any stage control that you may have had is gone and now theirs.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but is there any reason we'd want to use Rising Dedede over usmash OoS?

Usmash is really inconsistent in damage and knockback depending which side you face/how far you are when you do it. And while both are arguably slow OoS options, UpB has the benefit of having super armor. It's nothing stellar, but I really like it over our other options. But yeah, it really is a bummer that we cannot cancel it early.

Bouncing Gordo

As I said, I really haven't played enough to convince myself in one way or the other. It seems really obvious for most people, I just don't see it. I really like the stage control it gives us until, as Smooth said, your opponent hits it and uses it against you. Then again, maybe the time they take to actually gain control of it is plenty enough for us to get in. I don't know. It's really a viable option, that's for sure, I just don't see how much better it is compared to the regular one.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I've mentioned a few times that I liked the options we get with Bouncing Gordo, but I feel that it isn't strictly better than the default. They both have their uses, and as Lavani mentioned it'll likely come down to personal preference. Although, I still haven't been able to properly field test the Bouncing Gordo very much, so my own slight preference for the default variety very well could be from using them online.

I agree with the Dash Jet Hammer, it's an option I prefer as a PM player and the burst of speed it provides is nice. Not sure about the Rising Dedede Jump, I haven't tested that one out enough but I know I miss the ability to control when the jump ends. Might be the next thing I play around with.

 

[dean.]

today i found out there is a difference between smash gordos and tilt gordos. also applies to bouncing gordos and topspin gordos (not so noticable). /themoreyouknow

my preferred set-up:
taste test: more damage, seems to have less lag and seems to be marginally faster than inhale, at the expense of the stage control provided by turning around before you spit them out. might prefer inhale in match-ups where that stage control actually matters (hello little mac). dedede storm seems o.k. but i'm not willing to give up the grabbox offered by the other two.

gordo throw: does the most damage. i generally only use the up-angled one to pressure people recovering low or to bounce one onto a platform to cover space, or to cover a landing. topspin gordo is pretty funny, might try switching between them mid-set to try and throw people's timings off lol. thing to note with topspin is that the down-angled one is the fast, long-distance shot, compared to side angle for gordo throw. bouncing gordo seemed appealing to me but after trying it out was disappointed; only does 6% and if it gets hit back then it's your opponent that's controlling all that space now. now that i'm more familiar with the speed/bounce heights and lengths angling it in different ways does i might try it again.

rising dedede: is more or less strictly better than the other options if you only have to sweetspot the ledge. only exception is that it doesn't have the super armour of super dedede jump; it does however have invincibility once the hitbox comes out for a short time (less duration than super dedede jump's super armour; spawn a bob-omb on the lower battlefield platforms and rising dedede into it from below - you won't take any damage, but if you spawn one on the top platform and rising dedede into it, you'll take knockback whereas super dedede jump still has super armour then). the hitbox on rising dedede is more than enough to make it up however. i have not tried using this as an attack though so maybe i should try it; invincibility sounds nice, hitbox is nice, damage and power are nice (initial hitbox is only slightly weaker than usmash, and the 12% hitbox is only slightly weaker than uair). just don't whiff it lol

rising dedede gets a bit hairy if you don't sweetspot the ledge however; you can't cancel it at any point, once you enter the freefall stage there seems to be a lag period where you can't grab the ledge and it seems to be a harsher amount of time for where you enter that super-laggy animation from where you cancel super dedede jump too close to the ground. if there are any stages without ledges legal in the wii u version i recommend super dedede jump. might be an alternative for those stages as well i guess...

dash jet hammer: seems the least situational. covers great distance (much more than ftilt) so could be used for long-ranged punishes. armoured jet hammer might be useful for landing if you read an attack or otherwise hard reads. meh.

 

[dskank]

i've been in the lab a lot and i think its time to talk about the ending lag on D3's moves. nair auto cancels, which lets d3 use any of his grounded options immediately. nairing into dtilt, ftilt(after a cross-up), grab, utilt are all solid options. and because there are so many options it makes d3 hard to read.

But whats really interesting is that most of d3s move set has low ending lag. moves with low ending lag include uair, bair(even when it doesn't auto cancel), and dsmash. what this means is all those options you have after nair are also options after all of these moves, this is 1/2 of what makes d3 fast. d3s pressure game is real. there is no reason for d3 to not have a hit box out at all time while in close quarters, watch good ddds and thats what they do, they do it cause it works.

the 1/2 of what makes d3 fast is his godly fall speed, multi-jumps and aerials. all of these combine to make a disgusting wall of pain and juggling game. as a rule of thumb, if the opponent is off stage so are you. bair is great for setting up frame traps and nair is great for punishing air dodges. im finding fast fall is best used to attain a more advantageous position, use your jumps to cancel the fast falls and avoid going low off stage unless the opponent is below you, if then yall already know about nair and dair. d3 can basically float as an almost stationary hit box off stage via rising nair. I'm finding nair is d3s most useful aerial for wall of pain, bair is a close second.

thoughts?