Edge guarding offstage as Fox - what are some good (and safe) options?

[UncleAndross]

It is dangerous to off stage to edgeguard as Fox. His fall speed makes it hard to get anything done unless you want to plummet to your death. What are some 'safe' options for going off stage to edgeguard?

 

[tears in rain]

You really only have three options. The best choice you make depends on how far the opponent is from the stage. If they are right next to it - as in, they have just double jumped and are about to Up-B; your best choice here is to B-Air (most the time). If the stage is an omega, and the sides of the stage are simply a wall; B-Air won't spike them - if it's a stage like Final Destination or Battlefield, then B-Airing them will thrash them against the wall and they'll plummet to their death. This can, however, be avoided if the opponent tech's the wall; but there is nothing you can to stop this fact since right after using the B-Air, you will need to immediately Up-B and recover.

Your other two options are neutral air, and your reflector. Reflector's knock back is crummy, and is incredibly risky to try and pull off. So, it's really just neutral air, and B-Air. You use neutral air when the opponent is about to use (or just after) their second jump. Essentially, the whole idea is that you gimp their second jump with your neutral air.

 

[UncleAndross]

What about more gimmicky options? Not to use consistently but to throw out sometimes to surprise an opponent. I'm thinking stuff like jumping out offstage then firefoxing back to the ledge/stage intercepting your opponents recovery. Is that even viable? Let's not count out custom options as well. Twisting fox could be useful? Or even using wolf flash to spike and then recovering back

EDIT: Dude you are from Perth? So am I!

 

[tears in rain]

Yes, well, I often use firefox to gimp people as well. It is incredibly risky, probably more risky than trying to shine spike them. This is because of the fact that you just sort of hover in the air for a few moments before anything happens. What you can try do is fall right next to them, neutral air them (without gimping), and then fire fox up back onto the stage. Because you neutral air'd them, the first thing they are going to do is try and get back on the stage - retaliating against you midair is the least of their worries. Your opponent will (if they have it) double jump up, and try to Up-B. Once they do this, you'll find that they will almost always jumped into your charging firefox.

Custom moves is something I have absolutely no knowledge on, sorry. And, yes; I am from Perth :D

 

[UncleAndross]

Twisting Fox is better at catching them and has great KO potential. Have you attended the myriad tournaments? I competed in singles on the 8th of February and doubles on the 22nd of February. I don't remember seeing another fox player

 

[tears in rain]

True that. I attend most of them... don't remember if I went to those ones in particular.

 

[UncleAndross]

yeah I haven't been to one since because of uni/other commitments. But next time i'm at one i'll keep a look out. Judging by your perfect pivot video you seem really good. There's a lot I could learn from your fox.

 

[tears in rain]

Understandable. I'm always willing to help others, so feel free to introduce yourself :D

 

[Rickster]

If I'm really desperate I try dragging them down with a Fair. Pretty risky, and you're left in a bad position if you miss, but it can be effective against characters with bad recoveries.

 

[UncleAndross]

how do people feel about down air as an option?

 

[EndlessRain]

Customs open up a few more options, namely Twisting Fox and Big Reflector. Twisting Fox is pretty solid since it has awesome knockback, so you can just kill them off the top rather than trying to gimp.
Big Reflector has no hitbox. It does, however, have a decently strong windbox, and slows your fall speed for a little while. So if they have used up their jumps etc. you can often pop down, blow them away from the stage, and recover with a jump (the stalling from the reflector keeping you from going too far).

 

[UncleAndross]

yeah big reflector, twisting fox (and even wolf flash) give fox a few more off-stage options. I played around with big reflector for a bit but couldn't get the hang of its windbox. Might have to give it another try

 

[EndlessRain]

Wolf Flash is a little risky to actually use offstage, since if you miss you are not in a very good spot. I'd recommend using it while onstage to hit an opponent just before they get back, as opposed to going after a far-off foe. It combos out of fthrow against certain characters at certain percents, so that is fun.
NB3, the Charge Blaster, is pretty handy for edgeguarding too (though obviously not offstage...) because it forces them to act to avoid it, and as it is a projectile it's also fairly safe.
I've said it before, but I think Fox's best edgeguard method is standing on the edge and boinking them every time they try to get back. Recovering high? Jump and bair. Recovering low? Dsmash/dtilt/down-angled ftilt. Going to a platform? Run under it and SH uair before they land on it.
One last thing: You know how you can hit Diddy while he's charging his upB and make him lose the jetpack? Use shine for it instead of nair, it ends faster and you fall slower while it's out so there's less chance of an SD.

 

[NoahDaniel]

The Big Reflector windbox is different depending on which way you're facing. The windbox doesn't do that much if you're facing away from the stage. You could gimp characters with a bad recovery.

But if you're facing towards the stage, the windbox pulls them in and is a lot stronger. If the stage doesn't have walls, you can gimp characters with a linear recovery like Rosalina by trapping them under the stage.

 

[M@v]

You're all forgetting about using charge blaster to intercept recoveries offstage and potentially kill them early. (I've killed DKs around 120-130 this way) Charge blaster is probably the safest off stage edge guard option he has, especially since sometimes he can stay above the stage while using it to edge guard.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Imo, Fox is more threatening waiting onstage, you can pressure whatever option they choose from there fine. You can even stay there and shoot lasers at them to tack on damage as they're coming back, this is a great way to push them a bit farther to KO % range.
You also get a hilarious gimp on Villager flying with balloons if you shoot them both, but this is typically not an easy thing to force since Villager can recovery low and give no cares.

D-smash is a good thing to use near the ledge to hit opponents who don't sweetspot their recoveries and don't have hurtboxes in their recoveries that can challenge it. Also worth noting that there is 1 frame where the opponents are not invincible right as they grab the ledge, which you can catch. This takes practice to do.

You'll find there are characters who are just not overall safe to challenge offstage. Such characters might be:


It's not a bad idea to stay fox-trot distance away from the ledge. By being in this position, you can cover a lot of options with a quick movement. Against these, especially, you should stay onstage and watch what they're doing closely. Wait for your chance to hit them. You might find F-smash or short-hop N-air useful for catching ledge getups and jumps from the ledge. F-smash may be punishable but covers a good amount of space, it's Fox's punishing move when his opponent whiffs something punishable close to him.

If you insist on going offstage, N-air is about the only safe move you have, and it only really gimps if:
a) you're fighting someone with a bad recovery
b) you get a stage spike by sending them behind you

You can also stage spike with B-air. I'm not a fan of this, however, since stage spiking is dependant on your opponent missing the tech. Imo, you should watch your opponent first and see how spot on their techs are before attempting a stage spike. B-air offstage is also very unsafe

F-air is alright as well, but it's knockback also sends them up. The F-air spike is good if you get it, but a smart opponent will see it coming.

With customs on though, Fox gets more tools:

Twisting Fox (UpB3, aka Barrel Roll) has multiple hitboxes and more priority than the regular one. You can trap certain characters who are expecting a N-air offstage or different option.

Big Reflector (DownB2, aka Wind Shine) gets a windbox that pushes opponents away, great for gimping linear recoveries.

Charge Blaster (NeutralB3, aka Firin' mah Lazer) is powerful and forces airdodges offstage if you line it up. As Mav said above, it's really good.
Impact Blaster (NeutralB2, aka That ain't Falco Lasers) can catch double jumps and force opponents to use their recovery move. You might be able to predict their option better if they have no recovery left.

 

[Foster J.]

Another day of wishing that the last hit of Dair would send them more horizontal than vertical

 

[Ribskhie]

Whenever I go offstage with Fox to close out a stock, I'll typically use a simple Bair. It's probably Fox's most reliable and safest offstage kill option, as it's relatively quick and powerful, and it doesn't really leave you open. Even if it does have high ending lag, you should be able to get back with Fox's great recovery if you whiff it. If a Bair doesn't work, you could try Nair, which is overall a lot safer, but at the same time, it's not very powerful and it isn't going to kill reliably offstage like his Bair.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Whenever I go offstage with Fox to close out a stock, I'll typically use a simple Bair. It's probably Fox's most reliable and safest offstage kill option, as it's relatively quick and powerful, and it doesn't really leave you open. Even if it does have high ending lag, you should be able to get back with Fox's great recovery if you whiff it. If a Bair doesn't work, you could try Nair, which is overall a lot safer, but at the same time, it's not very powerful and it isn't going to kill reliably offstage like his Bair.

There are a lot of characters that can get back onstage if you whiff B-air before you get back, and they can also gimp Fox easily due to his linear recovery:


These are just a couple examples. Fox may cover good distance with his recovery, but it's still as linear as ever. N-air is overall safer because it's a long-lasting hitbox unlike B-airs precision based hitbox.

 

[Foster J.]

There are a lot of characters that can get back onstage if you whiff B-air before you get back, and they can also gimp Fox easily due to his linear recovery:


These are just a couple examples. Fox may cover good distance with his recovery, but it's still as linear as ever. N-air is overall safer because it's a long-lasting hitbox unlike B-airs precision based hitbox.

The only situation in which you'd want to go for a Bair offstage would be a stage spike. And that would be to punish others with likewise linear recoveries!

So take a note off Cozy's book here, Yes. USE NAIR. Ganon is a great example, if you drop down and hit him even with a weak nair, chances are he won't be able to recover, just remember to save your jump people

 

[Ribskhie]

The only situation in which you'd want to go for a Bair offstage would be a stage spike. And that would be to punish others with likewise linear recoveries!

So take a note off Cozy's book here, Yes. USE NAIR. Ganon is a great example, if you drop down and hit him even with a weak nair, chances are he won't be able to recover, just remember to save your jump people

I usually never go offstage to take a stock with Fox, so, I don't really know much about offstage killing with him. I figured that Nair was a lot safer because of how long it lasts, so, I'll stick with it.

 

[DeathlyFerret]

I only try to edge guard if they're above and fairly close to the ledge. That's really the safest time you have to edge guard.
You can also try to stage spike with a Bair, but that's pretty dangerous for Fox. I swear I stage spiked someone on FD, and I died before they did because Fox falls faster than a freaking 10 ton truck filled with paperweights.

 

[srn347]

Against horizontal recoveries, the down smash at the edge seems to work pretty well. Not much fox can do against vertical recoveries however (especially with all the curved edges that push them into the sweetspot). Still, bullets and/or pressure as they return to the stage are nearly always effective options.

 

[RPK]

Charge a D-smash and hit them on the frame they grab the ledge. Another option is to ledge trump them, get back on, and D-smash. I dont think Fox does a great job edge guarding off stage except against certain characters.

 

[srn347]

Yeah, his ledge guarding ability was significantly nerfed from melee to brawl. I can still land shine gimps somewhat consistently, but they don't really do much.

 

[Kevin Sweeney]

If theyre even with the stage or below it and a bit from the wall you can grab the ledge then fast fall > jump > back air which kills pretty early

 

[UncleAndross]

I've heard about the 1 frame ledge grab vulnerability but haven't really looked into it. What is the gist/how practical is it for consistent use?

 

[EndlessRain]

If you can consistently get the timing right, dsmash will hit even if they are coming to the ledge vertically. It's hard though. Fixed recoveries like our own sideB are the easiest because you know exactly how long it will take for them to reach the ledge and you can thus time your dsmash accordingly. The longer the startup, the more time you have to work out when to strike. So against, say, a Falco: He starts charging upB below the stage, you wait a little, input the dsmash a little before they reach the ledge so your foot is at it when they get there. If it's Lucario, they fly at the ledge, you input dsmash before they reach it, they turn around, do a loop of the stage and then grab the ledge while you are in endlag.