Evo 2013 Ruleset

[Life]

Could just have wobbling be legal after a certain point in bracket. Means that bad ICs can't use it to get past okay players while letting it be used against people that are good enough to handle it.

 

[clowsui]

[COLLAPSE="APEX 2012 RESULTS"]
1: Armada ($3,046.50)
2: Hungrybox ($1489.40)
3: Mango ($804.00)
4: Javi ($536.00)
5: Dr Peepee ($270.80)
5: KirbyKaze ($270.80)
7: Hax ($169.25)
7: Shroomed ($169.25)
9: Lovage
9: MacD
9: Wobbles
9: Unknown522
13: VaNz
13: SFAT
13: Zhu
13: Tope
17: PewpewU
17: KoreanDJ
17: DaShizWiz
17: Mew2King
17: Darc
17: Silent Wolf
17: chillindude829
17: s2j
25: HBK
25: Weon-x
25: Eggm
25: Jman
25: Teczero
25: Bladewise
25: I.B
25: WestBallz
33: Tang
33: Ice
33: Kage the Warrior :ganonmelee:
33: Redd
33: Tai
33: Sol
33: Amsah
33: Druggedfox
33: LEFFEN
33: Axe
33: Chu Dat
33: Plup
33: darrell
33: StriCNYN3
33: th0rn
33: Reno
49: Eggz
49: MattDotZeb
49: SwiftBass
49: Vist
49: Colbol
49: Vudujin
49: PC Chris
49: Cactuar
49: Azen
49: Linguini :ganonmelee:
49: Stabbedbyanipple
49: Cyrain
49: Ambix
49: Hugs
49: Ravenlord
49: ZoSo [/COLLAPSE]

Only 1 ICs in top 12? Hmm....
[COLLAPSE="ROM 5 RESULTS"]
1: Mew2King (1024 Qualifier Points)
2: Unknown522 (512 Qualifier Points)
3: KirbyKaze (128 Qualifier Points)
4: Eggm (64 Qualifier Points)
5: Hax (16 Qualifier Points)
5: Chillindude829 (16 Qualifier Points)
7: Scar (8 Qualifier Points)
7: DJ Nintendo (8 Qualifier Points)
9: Ether (2 Qualifier Points)
9: Swift (2 Qualifier Points)
9: Nintendude (2 Qualifier Points)
9: Cactuar (2 Qualifier Points)
13: Teczero (1 Qualifier Points)
13: ZoSo (1 Qualifier Points)
13: Sol (1 Qualifier Points)
13: DoH (1 Qualifier Points)
17: Weon-X
17: Mafia
17: Cyrain
17: G$
17: Ben Grimm
17: Reno
17: Nando
17: T.Webb
25: JesiahTEG
25: Phish-it
25: Slox
25: Mr. F
25: WarriorKnight
25: The Moon
25: HazZ
25: Strong Bad
33: Spawn
33: ILM
33: Bolt
33: Sorto
33: Gravy
33: Dkuo
33: UltimaScout
33: Ryobeat
33: Mark
33: Europhoria
33: Aber
33: PB&J
33: Benteezy
33: Wenbo
33: Milkman
33: Knut
49: StriCNYN3
49: Chain-Ace
49: Inui
49: Kwan
49: Vist
49: NitroGlycerne
49: BigWenz
49: Dan
49: Sneaky Dave
49: Ju4n
49: Brookman
49: Hailey
49: Handsome Joe
49: Veda
49: Boney
49: JSex [Forfeit][/COLLAPSE]
Here too? Huh.
[COLLAPSE="KINGS OF CALI RESULTS"]

1: Dr PP
2: Mango
3: Axe
4: Shroomed
5: Fly Amanita
5: PewpewU
7: westballz
7: s2j
9: Eddy Mexico
9: Scar
9: Darrell
9: SFAT
13: stab
13: JpegImage
13: OkamiBW
13: Fiction
17: Bimbo Mexico
17: Rickety
17: Zeldafreak
17: Hyuga
17: Zhu
17: ROFL
17: baka4moe
17: Lucky
25: Vish
25: Tafokints
25: L
25: joejoe
25: TAI
25: HugQ
25: Toph
25: MooniniteLeader
33: DendyPretendy
33: bob$
33: alan
33: Violence
33: sidefx
33: Khepri
33: golden
33: DanteFox
33: SephirothKen
33: A rookie
33: Peligro
33: mikeHAZE
33: Zoap
33: Mogwai
33: GimR :gwmelee:
33: Connor
[/COLLAPSE]
Seems like we got a real problem on our hands here boys....or not.

 

[Bones0]

I don't even think it's that controversial anymore. Most tournaments I am familiar with have Wobbling legal these days. I didn't even know Apex 2013 banned it since it was legal last year...

@Life
I actually proposed a wobbling ban for the first round of pools in my ruleset, but a lot of people felt convinced me that I was essentially trying to protect newbs from the game. It's basically equivalent to banning laser spamming or DD camping because those tactics are super good vs. worse players.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Wobbling doesn't even really effect how you play against ice climbers OR how you play ice climbers OR how successful ice climbers are.

Wobbling is really really brutal against non top level players and almost completely irrelevant against top level players.

SO glad that we are using CRTs and Gamecubes for this event


CANT WAIT!!!

 

[Doomolish]

#freeiceclimbers

 

[clowsui]

Honestly Ice Climbers are so unpopular and difficult to master that it shouldn't even matter whether or not it affects lower-level players. Like I'm talking for every 100 players you're gonna find maybe 10 ICs mains. Tops. I'd argue that Wobbling serves as the ultimate encouragement to get the hell better at this game lol, it's not even a crutch at the MID level for ****'s sake

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

First of all, welcome back to Evo, guys. ^_^ Super happy for your community. Can't wait to see Smash Melee at Evo again.

The questions I have regarding Wobbling are this:

1) When Wobbling is allowed in tournaments, do the top 8 players end up being predominantly Ice Climbers? In other words, does Wobbling turn Ice Climbers into undisputed #1 character of the game?

2) Without Wobbling, are Ice Climbers ***? Let's think with an FGC example. Third Strike, unblockables with Urien and Oro seem unfair. But it actually makes them competitive and without them, they are not competitive anymore. Where does that fall in with Ice Climbers and Wobbling?

3) Doesn't this kinda change the gameplan vs. Ice Climbers with Wobbling on? Doesn't the goal become kill Nana first as fast as possible, then go after Popo? Is that strategy effective enough to counter-act Wobbling?

Thanks, guys. And congrats!!

- James

Dang, these are really smart and thoughtful questions. To answer them:


1.) No. In fact, Wobbling legality has had essentially no effect on the top 8 placings at big national/international tournaments. Dominant Ice Climber players remain dominant, and low-to-mid level Ice Climber players don't suddenly start placing really high.

2.) Ice Climbers are competitive characters (roughly B+ tier) even without Wobbling. Good Ice Climber players are capable of doing incredible 0-death combos even without the use of Wobbling, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QiUhr-uZlc#t=20m17s

3.) Actually, because of my point in #2, the strategy against Ice Climbers, whether Wobbling is banned or not, is ALWAYS to kill Nana early, and then to go after Popo. And yes, at high-level play, that is definitely enough to keep Wobbling from being an actually game-breaking issue.


I think the problems people have with Wobbling have more to do with:

- Ice Climbers have such good grab combos already (see above video)
- Some people think Wobbling is easier, and so while it hardly affects high level play, it can significantly affect the tournament experience for low-to-mid level players.


Hope that helps! Thanks again for all your support!

 

[Life]

I don't even think it's that controversial anymore. Most tournaments I am familiar with have Wobbling legal these days. I didn't even know Apex 2013 banned it since it was legal last year...

@Life
I actually proposed a wobbling ban for the first round of pools in my ruleset, but a lot of people felt convinced me that I was essentially trying to protect newbs from the game. It's basically equivalent to banning laser spamming or DD camping because those tactics are super good vs. worse players.

Ah, thought I had read it somewhere before. Thanks for commenting.

 

[Ironboy]

Not to take away from the work IC players put in to learn their infinites, but i'm not sure how good this would look for EVO. Not sure if it would be a bad or a good thing, but i feel it's important to think about. We are gonna have ALOT of new spectators and it may or may not be a good idea to show that part of the game, we don't wanna give any bad impressions. Again, not taking away from the skill it takes to wobble nor do i think it's wrong.

I don't see why this would be a bad thing when EVO has a history of games having infinite, and the games were still fun. Heck recently Marvel 3 had TAC infinites in EVO 2012, everybody saying that "LOL MARVEL 3 is broken, banned TAC INFINTES!" were proven wrong. Mr.Wizard let that rock, and absolutely nothing bad happens.

Unless Ice Climber literally breaks the game, and they become unbeatable...why not?

 

[luzbwl]

How good a tactic looks to an audience should NEVER be a valid criteria to decide COMPETITION rules.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Honestly the vast, vast majority of smashers nowadays prefer Wobbling legal. In fact I think APEX is the exception and most tournies in the last year had it on.

You have to add a clause to not let people do it indefinitely, but up to ~350% should be fine.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The funny thing is top Ice Climbers don't even usually wobble anymore. They are so good at grab combos that it doesn't matter and its not worth the risk of the mash out.

Wobbling was illegal at APEX but tbh if you asked any of the competitors most of them wouldn't have known...

Its just one of those archaic things from 2005 that managed to get copy-pasted all the way until now lol.

 

[Nintendude]

I'd like to point out one beef I have with the percentage limit on wobbling which is that there is one unique situation that it may be violated. If ICs wobble someone facing the tree, windmall, or mountain on Pokemon Stadium, you are gonna want to wait until the transformation goes away before finishing the stock (so they don't DI into a wall and tech), and that may result in the percentage rule being broken.

 

[Scidadle]

Will there be a doubles tournament as well?

 

[luzbwl]

That's not an issue, the rule is clear. They might not get a kill but they can get exceptional positional adventage plus they would only need one hit to kill.

 

[Revven]

Will there be a doubles tournament as well?

I wouldn't expect there to be one. Singles only. Time constraints.

Maybe you could hold a really small scale side one. I don't think the vast majority of players want doubles to be the main event instead of singles, lol.

 

[luzbwl]

Yeah, people can make a doubles side tournament anyway.

 

[Revven]

Speaking of time constraints, should we be lowering the timer? 8 minutes is way too high for an event of this scale.

 

[Lovage]

call me old school but

wobbling banned

 

[smashmachine]

i think apex ruleset w/ simpler counterpicking and NO BUTTON CHECKING would be fine

 

[TL?]

The tourney and ICs will be fine either way. Because of that, I would suggest to allow it since it will be easier to run the tourney with one less thing to look out for.

 

[MrWizard]

Yeah I believe we lowered the timer to 5 or 6 minutes last time at Evo. 8 minutes is too long.

 

[smashmachine]

Yeah I believe we lowered the timer to 5 or 6 minutes last time at Evo. 8 minutes is too long.

3 stock/5 min?
never saw evo 2007

 

[MrWizard]

3 stock/5 min?
never saw evo 2007

Yeah I believe it was that exactly.

 

[Construct]

Now I know my opinion isn't worth much, but I think that the timer should be kept to eight and lives should be kept to four, and I'll explain why.

Very, very few matches go to time limit. Timing people out in Melee is almost entirely nonexistent. The only matches where the 8 minute limit actually ends games are in matchups such as Young Link vs Jigglypuff who HAVE to have super long matches due to the way their characters are designed (lots of ranged pokes, lots of difficulty finishing kills), and it would be unfair to those players to force them to move faster than their characters can. Now, fortunately for tournament-running purposes, matchups like these are extremely rare, and shortening the time limit by a minute or two wouldn't really save time in the long run anyways. Nonetheless, I think this is a less important point overall than the idea of three stocks vs four stocks, and if compromise needs to made it'd be better to cut time than stocks.

On the subject of four stocks to three stocks, I feel like that's just too much of a fundamental change to the way we play the game. Four stocks gives you enough room to recover from an accidental suicide, and is exactly what allowed great matches like Mew2king vs Shiz to happen.

/2cents

 

[luzbwl]

Finals of evo 2k7, have fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ras6ohb5uM

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

Alternately, you could keep it at four stocks, but lower the timer to 5-6 minutes.

I do think that keeping it at four stocks is important--like Construct says, four stocks is what the current metagame has evolved around. It's just the right amount for comebacks to be rare and meaningful, yet not impossible. It gives just enough time for people to adapt. Not that these times are "set", but if people have been playing with 4 stocks for forever then that is how they will think about the game.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

4 stocks 6 minutes sounds like a good compromise.

 

[Scidadle]

Smash "button checks" are a joke.

I also think the timer should be less. I don't want any Puff/Y.Link to ruin any credibility that smash may have

Wobbling also isn't that big of a deal honestly. If you get grabbed by an ICs and they are in prime position you should expect to die. Wobbling just makes it easier.

 

[Revven]

4 stocks 6 minutes sounds like a good compromise.

My only fear would be some matches cutting it a bit close to time out, but maybe it won't be so bad... if there's not a lot of floaty vs floaty character match-ups lol.

Either way, keeping stocks to 4 and lowering timer is best compromise.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

My only fear would be some matches cutting it a bit close to time out, but maybe it won't be so bad... if there's not a lot of floaty vs floaty character match-ups lol.

Honestly, through years in the community...

Maybe 1 out of every 1000 matches goes to time.

It just doesn't happen.

Even with 6 minutes it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[MrWizard]

Yeah 4 stocks, 6 min timer is doable.

 

[Scidadle]

Then it is done.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Let me rephrase: DSR modified makes it so the order that you won the matches in matters.

So, we've established that if m2k wins on FD and his opponent takes 2 attempts to win on his cp, then m2k can pick FD again. But what about the case where his opponent wins on his cp on the first attempt? Then m2k has to pick a different stage, and thus this prevents him from using FD twice in the same set.

I obviously agree with the theory behind counterpicking but it seems like double jeopardy that if you lose on your own counterpick, you enable your opponent to pick his best stage for a second time. It just seems to defeat the whole purpose of the "modified" part of the rule.

Agreed. This reasoning applies to other hard counterpicks too like Fox on Stadium, Marth on Yoshis or w/e. I might just be a biased spacies but I think other people can relate to being CP trapped. Anyone else have thoughts?!

 

[Dax]

Thanks for your input. Just to clarify a few things, we have very specific rules for pausing the game. Any pausing of the game will result in a disqualification. There will be no exceptions for any game in our tournament.

Secondly Evo is a world event. At this stage, I don't think newcomers will shy away from playing the game if they see wobbling at Evo. If they like the game, they will play it, plain and simple.

Just don't get thrown and you are golden!

Hey mr. Wizard,
thanks for your work. Just wanted to make you notice that you can disable the pause from the menu of the game. That way, there's not even risk of disqualifications, and no risk that someone presses start by accident.

 

[Scamp]

Yeah 4 stocks, 6 min timer is doable.

4 Stock 6 minutes is what happened last time. You can see the final 8 on youtube still.

Pool play were 4 stocks and 8 minutes IIRC, but best of one. Except of course when I snuck in 2 out of 3 matches, but I know you knew about that already.

 

[Scidadle]

Modified DSR as explained by Nintendude seems like the most reasonable CP rule.

 

[Melty Venus]

Please stop calling them "button checks"

People just practice their tech skill (i.e., warming up) and they're not really checking buttons to see if they're functional.

As for the wobbling issue, I am but a mere n00b under the eyes of the Smash community, but I think wobbling should be banned. Though I think it doesn't sound too bad if it's on, you have to remember that this is a tournament setting and people will play to win. They WILL use wobbling if it's legal. Just have that in consideration.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Regarding pause rules, I'd probably go with something like "Pause is set to 'off'. If a game is played with pause on nonetheless and a player pauses, s/he forfeits the round."

I like the percentage clause for wobbling (if anything, 350% should be more than enough since a slow dtilt wobble has a pretty low dps). I wouldn't even be concerned about the case where the opponent is up against a wall since ICs already have tricks to deal with that situation, plus it's just such an extremely unlikely and insignificant scenario for an ICs player to be wobbling somebody to 350% against a wall that I wouldn't bother addressing it.

 

[MattDotZeb]

May I suggest:

The tournament organizer has the right to save/record any tournament match if possible and has the right to upload said match.
i. The m2k Rule - By entering the tournament you agree to play your matches on the setup requested by a tournament organizer whether it be a stream, recording, or non-recording setup.

I'm not sure if EVO has anything in it's general rules regarding this, but I've found this useful in my events as a 'just in case' type of rule.