~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[SinkingHigher]

At high percentages d-tilt > Spike works for me. I can't remember if it's a lock.

Near the edge I usually go for d-tilt > spike > b-air sweetspot.

Basically you spike them so they're at the edge of the stage, then move slightly off the stage and b-air while they're on the floor.

 

[-dMT-]

OK vids are uploading at the moment. Had some time to spare.

EDIT: Here they are guys:

vs ROB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSN8aHYa4WI

vs Dedede: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCmE1U59gk

vs Yoshi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNPkVZPenZA

 

[Kataefi]

okay I've updated some of the OP with the videos added.

I think testing din's from a trip could be interesting.

 

[DarkThundah]

That does look pretty cool. The timing looks hard though. I suspect people will have to commit before hand to make the decision to either dtilt lock>dsmash or dtilt>LK. I'm not sure if people will have the reflexes to anticipate a trip and make the concious decision to stop the dtilt combo and go instead for a LK. I wonder if the timing will make it less practical, but than again thats what people said about samus' super wavedash back in melee.

It will be nice to see if this replaces the dtilt>dtilt>dsmash on some characters.

 

[Oh Snap]

the dtilt to fair on Dk looks awesome! i'll remember to use that the next time i fight a DK ^____^

 

[Kataefi]

Timing for trip > Fair is so easy it's unreal.

Bairs slightly harder. I've set my L button to jump. So from a Dtilt I can buffer Zelda turning around and then jump and sweetspot. It's possible to do it faster than what it shows in the videos, but that would require perfect timing, which is always tricky.

But this finishes off characters like Bowser, Dedede and DK very easily. ESPECIALLY Bowser and DK because they are affected by both the trip > Fair/Bair sweetspot. Which means one could be used for racking damage whilst the other finishes them off, killing them off the edge at any point around 100% =O

 

[-Mars-]

Good stuff Kataefi, I <3 U forever now. I wonder if any of this works on MK seeing as how he can be hit with Ganons jab out of a Gerudo.......it would be interesting to find out.

Also, this might affect our matchups with these characters a bit more.....something we might want to look over again.

Oh and for the video thread....i've been really busy as of late and i've strived to not let the thread become too inactive. I was hoping when I first made the thread that maybe some other players were willing to do critique's as well....but I guess not.

 

[Kataefi]

Nah no worries! I got dark peach to give me some critique so it's all cool =D As for these combos, I believe things got worse for DDD because he doesn't have a ground move faster than frame 5. If you can spotdodge his grab and go into Dtilt, you've on to a winning match basically - this could be 65:35 I believe.

ROB, Yoshi, DK and Bowser, Charizard are now so much easier to finish off from the ledge, especially if you keep it fresh. ROB can't momentum cancel - get him up to around 100% and use this combo and he's dead! Especially considering he likes to ledgecamp and stand by the ledge anyways =O

She might have the advantage with DK too because she can rack damage with one, and finish with the other very easily.

The fact that this is a guarantee adds things to her favour. Whenever we bair OoS we're not always 100% sure it will sweetspot, but if we get the timing down for this, it's something very certain.

We should revisit some matchups and factor this in.

MK is interesting - I havn't tried him yet lol, I will tomorrow though ^^

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I have a theory but I'm not sure it'll work; the slight hitstun of Dtilt might be enough to get out a Bair before an opponent can retaliate, so perhaps everyone that is tall enough to be hit by Bair OoS can be hit by non-trip Dtilt to LK. I've been testing it throughout the night but I don't have any video backup. I really feel like this could work but could someone check this?

EDIT: Can someone also check this for fair on taller portion of the cast as well?

 

[Z1GMA]

This is pretty cool, Kataefi.

It should work perfectly with reverse buffering+SH Bair, rather than turning around and then SH Bair.

But what about powershielding?

 

[Kataefi]

Powershielding the lightning kick should be hard as she hits them in or just after their intial trip animation - They have momentary lag when they trip and if buffered she should be hitting before they even have this lag, which should make it inescapable =O

I think it's pretty much guaranteed. What would be great is if we found a way for this to make it work on other characters.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I was able to test this with Pit, Falco, and a good part of the cast that is tall enough for OoS Sheild Bair. I will test it more but if they don't trip, the hitstun of the Dtilt will lead to Reverse buffered SH bair unless the jab beats it out, so in this case, it may just trade off. I'll take that trade lol.

 

[Kataefi]

Good stuff Scary!

But if they can shield - they will be able to shield and possibly powershield.

But this will make one hell of a surprise on them. Do more testing and compile a list of everyone it may work on.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm telling you I bet anything that this works on MK. I don't have my Wii until late Friday, but oh boy by midnight on Friday i'm going to know if this works or not.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

This is true, but I think at mid damages such as 40% and higher, the hitstun will hold. I need to test in real time instead of training mode but when I get the chance to compile a list I will. For now, I have homework for Inorg. Chem.

As far as I tested last night was able to land them on characters as tall as Falco and Luigi, so most OoS options, without much problem on an HD TV so I figure if I subtract the lag, the kick will more than likely beat out most options. Always the powershield is something to worry about but if they try to fight it, their getting hit.

 

[Kataefi]

Exactly! On characters this might not be guaranteed on, this still poses a threat as it's something they'll have to react to in time, and buffered bair can be done in such little time!

 

[Villi]

If this works on MK...

It prolly doesn't work on MK. He and Pikachu are the only two characters in the game short enough not to be hit with a rising bair.

I prolly wouldn't complain if you made the video anyway, tho.

 

[lil cj]

Great stuff Kataefi!!!
This should make Zelda go up a few spots on the tier list

 

[Kataefi]

Lol thankyou! I doubt very much she'll climb up considering it only works for a few characters (at the moment). It doesn't work on MK =(

BUT I need to know everything about Dtilt - EVERYTHING. I want to know its hitstun but no one's got equipment, and people that do never reply to my PMs >.<

 

[SinkingHigher]

Very few people respond positively to PMS.

 

[Kataefi]

Really? I didn't know that >.> Who can I contact? I've tried 3GOD but he never got back to me, and it looks like s/he is the right person to do it

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I was able to get Luigi with non-trip Dtilt -> Reverse buffered Bair. Lucky me, I was able to play a bunch of matches with Polmex23's Luigi tonight and I was able to pull it off at least 4 or 5 times. Doing this against Snake is so hard not for the method, but finding the opportunity to use it. It's so d*** hard to get close to do this lol.

I'll lab this within the next few days or probably after gigs so I can make sure I'm caught up with my schoolwork.

 

[Kataefi]

Wow! Okay so this has potential =O Make sure you prioritise your schoolwork first though and then get back to this. But it would be interesting if you could send me some replays so I can take a look.

Also, though Dtilts are hand to land on characters like Snake, it can be something opportunistic similar to ICs chaingrabs where you play as normal and then find the right opportunity to get a trip > sweetspot / stumble > sweetspot or whatever.

And one question - is the hitstun in training mode different to the hitstun in vs mode? Just a genuine question ^^

 

[-dMT-]

I believe the only difference is there is no attack decay in training mode, so everything will stay at full knockback/dmg.

I don't think there's a difference in hitstun.

 

[ColinJF]

There's a difference in hitstun, since the number of frames of hitstun is directly proportional to the magnitude of the force with which the character is launched, and in training mode, there is no stale move decay, which means there is no +5% bonus for fresh moves, which means they launch with weaker forces... and hence less hitstun.

 

[Kataefi]

This makes sense -- because I can do dtilt pop up > Utilt consistently but cannot land this consistently in training mode.

If this is true then scary your theory of dtilt hitstun > sweetspot could definitely be true. Which is why I need in depth frame data to test this!

Dtilt pops Meta Knight up at exactly 87% I tested. And from this you can SH Fair sweetspot immediately to get it accurate and kill him. In training mode he can airdodge it when he pops up straight away, but I'm starting to think otherwise now. We may able to land the early if we kill pop him up.

I need frame data!!!

 

[Takumaru]

I can't give you frame data but I will be able to test this for you tonight. A guy on my floor I play all the time plays metaknight so I can mess around a bit and see what works. Also dtilt > utilt can be DI'd out of pretty easily by a lot of the cast if they're at a % that utilt might kill them. I use zelda, marth, and peach and I have yet to actually be hit by dtilt > utilt. A list of people this works on would be nice though because I'm sure some characters can't get out of it.

 

[Z1GMA]

Maybe garateed on all character at slopes, like on Yoshis island?

It prolly doesn't work on MK. He and Pikachu are the only two characters in the game short enough not to be hit with a rising bair.

I prolly wouldn't complain if you made the video anyway, tho.

Don't be to sure ;P

MK's hurtbox is actually pretty big verticaly, when he lies on the ground.

Dtilt pops Meta Knight up at exactly 87% I tested.

Doesn't "stale moves" change the pop-up-%'s ?

 

[Z1GMA]

Dp . . . . .

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah that's true, but all I want to test is the actual pop up. I want to see what options she has when they pop up and see if anything like a sweetspot from this could be guaranteed.

 

[Villi]

Maybe garateed on all character at slopes, like on Yoshis island?


Don't be to sure ;P

MK's hurtbox is actually pretty big verticaly, when he lies on the ground.

So you think he could be hit with a rising bair sweetspot laying down, but not standing?

 

[ColinJF]

Kataefi, you also need to consider that if the launch force is > 2550, then the target is able to air dodge well before hitstun ends (about half way through it in fact). Luckily, moves like Zelda's down tilt (i.e. moves that hit the target into the surface they're standing on) first pop up the opponent when the launch force is 2000. This means you'd have a window in which to potentially do this combo.

(I'm just saying this to caution you against assuming hitstun is always a relevant quantity for whether something is a combo.)

 

[GodAtHand]

Everything he just said is jibberish to me...

Just tell me when/if I have some awesome Zelda combos to use before my next tournament FEB 28th..

^_^

 

[Kataefi]

Good stuff Colin! Right now I have no accurate means of testing this... like no equipment that can capture the hitstun and acceleration speed of Dtilt.

I know that the dtilt trip to sweetspots works on said characters in the OP, but the pop up is what's interesting me the most. Until I can contact someone who can get frame data, there's not much concrete evidence to this theory other than trying it in matches.

 

[Z1GMA]

- It was more or less of a joke; there for the ";P"

However, I just did SweetSpot a standing MK with it, in training mode. (FD)
But I wasn't able to do it again, after that.
I must have been very lucky with his moving hurtbox.

 

[Villi]

Kataefi, you also need to consider that if the launch force is > 2550, then the target is able to air dodge well before hitstun ends (about half way through it in fact). Luckily, moves like Zelda's down tilt (i.e. moves that hit the target into the surface they're standing on) first pop up the opponent when the launch force is 2000. This means you'd have a window in which to potentially do this combo.

(I'm just saying this to caution you against assuming hitstun is always a relevant quantity for whether something is a combo.)

Colin, how do you calculate the amount of hitstun based on launch speed? Zelda's dtilt combos into itself at various percents around ~50%... would that be because its launch speed causes enough hitstun even if they don't leave the ground? Because I thought it might have just been because the tripping animation changed to give Zelda a high enough frame advantage.

 

[ColinJF]

When Zelda's down tilt isn't hitting you up, it isn't launching you at all. I don't think it works like normal hitstun. It even has its own animation. Once it hits you up though, it's quite typical.

 

[Villi]

Hum, ok. Is hitstun directly related to launch speed under 2550? How do you figure out how much time you have before they can air dodge?

 

[ColinJF]

Hitstun is always directly proportional to the magnitude of the launch force. The "dizzy" animation you get from moves that hit you into the ground is not really hitstun.

Also, it's not quite known how long it is until you can use an aerial or air dodge (these aren't the same times though; you can air dodge first).

 

[Kataefi]

Also... when this animation differs, what frame advantage does Zelda have? Because she might be able to capitalise on the trip, the pop up, and this weird trip animation.

Her dtilt is... mysterious, to the say the least.