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Q&A Falco Q&A

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
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Sierra Vista AZ
*sniff* Mogs don't <3 me no more! lol! I see how it is.. Mog.. well either way.. Nice job again man.. it's nice to see Falco threads still kickin ***.. I haven't played melee in like 4 months now.. Air force life... = so sad atm.. well maybe.. I'll be able to play more soon.

keep up the great work mog/falco thread =]
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
so im having problem fighting low tier characters with my falco... because im not used to playing ganondorfs and links, i got schooled the other day even though i think i can beat them... any advice would be great..

also, i played them with my definitely not as good sheik and did a lot better which was sad...
zomg, I made a thread on this very matter, and now, to my chagrin, I notice that KevinM is a big meanie face and has merged it into another thread (what a jerk amirite? I should be Falco broads mod, not him :mad088:). So without further ado, the lost Mogwai guide on fighting low tiers:

Mogwai's In-Depth Guide on How to Beat Mid-Bottom Tier Characters (and also Falcon)

So as I check up on these boards, sad to see that no one ever uses my Q and A thread, and instead makes a new thread or posts in Shiz's thread that Shiz doesn't post in anymore, I've noticed that Falcos have problems with a lot of random characters, so I've decided to compile a list of tips for beating everyone who's not Fox, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, Peach, ICs or another Falco.

Falco's moves:
god tier: lasers
excellent tier: utilt, bair, dair, shine
some times excellent tier: nair, fsmash
only really really good tier: everything else but fair
ok tier: fair

Here's the general flow chart for how to win:

1. Don't approach, instead shoot lasers. Since their character is not as good as yours, they don't have a gun, and as such will have to approach you or take 3472598213749% from lasers. Continue to 2 when they approach. If they're being really gay and powershielding or just sitting in shield you can either quit out of the match and pick Sheik or got to 5.

2. Once they approach, hit them with whichever one of your excellent moves makes the most sense. Continue to 3 when you hit them.

3. Once you hit them, combo them with your excellent moves until you don't think you'll be able to hit them again in hitstun. At this point, knock them off stage with your last hit. If you succeed in knocking them off stage, continue to 4, otherwise go back to 1.

4. Once they are off stage, kill them with bair if they recover low, dair if they recover high. If it's Captain Falcon you can also fsmash if he's beneath the stage because your fsmash hitbox is stupid and his up b sweetspot is essentially non-existent. Once they're dead go back to 1.

5. If they're in shield and not taking damage fast enough from lasers, attack their shield with good spacing. Notice that you don't want to pillar cause sometimes they'll stumble into a grab and as I'll explain below, you don't want that to happen. Instead, just space your moves either behind their shield (in which case you can pillar as long as they don't have a good up b out of shield (bowser, DK, Samus) or as far away as your dair will allow. Once their shield is tiny, just shield stab them and go to 3.

Another word of advice, don't get grabbed. If you're going to get grabbed, use an excellent move and hit them instead. Or run away and shoot lasers, they're both good options really.

The key piece of advice here is that Falco is a good character with good moves, whereas your opponent is a bad character with bad moves. Once you realize this and abuse it, you will not lose to bad characters anymore.

And that's it, you're now an expert is showing bad characters why your character is better than theirs.

*sniff* Mogs don't <3 me no more! lol! I see how it is.. Mog.. well either way.. Nice job again man.. it's nice to see Falco threads still kickin ***.. I haven't played melee in like 4 months now.. Air force life... = so sad atm.. well maybe.. I'll be able to play more soon.

keep up the great work mog/falco thread =]
oh, my bad, <3 V3ctorMan, you my boi son! Keep reppin' it straight Air Force, but try to get some melee in to um, up your reaction time and **** (yea, that's a good excuse).

you gonna be at genesis by any chance? I'd like to get my *** handed to me in dittos (god I blow at dittos since PC quit :p)
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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yea lol whatever you do dont get grabbed. dont even bother risking to pillar low tier shields in front unless you're REALLY confident that you wont miss fastfall/l-cancels and even then you can STILL get grabbed.

like mog said dont pillar thier shield in front you have better options. get behind the shield and pillar if you must, just for the love of god dont get grabbed even ****ing pichu has a chaingrab on Bird.
 

Incronaut

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
610
ahh thanks for that mog!!

mog for falco mod ftw lol

aaaand, for the guy asking about reverse lasering, i know this method is completely inefficient as it kills momentum, but if youre still learning reverse lasering and caught yourself at an important tourney match or something, i find it a lot safer (but again inefficient) to dash, reverse on the ground, and then SHLaser, it works, but again not that great...

just my 2 cents.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
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Sierra Vista AZ
LOL.. yay, umm yeah I'm trying to represent the air force. Um actually for the time being.. I ACTUALLY AM going to genesis. I mean unless I deploy, i'm going yeah! looks interesting, and I actually have $$$ now and a good amount of it (one good thing about military) xD

Yeah it'd be cool playing you in Falco ditto's and i'm sorry PC quit on ya.. I <3 Falco ditto's as i'm sure you already know from the tons of matches I've w/Axe.. *powershielding woot* it'd be cool to play ya..

Well yeah.. umm i'll be on the boards alot more now, got lots more free time. Sad to say it, but my dots are still kinda here when i type but my trash talking is all but a memory.. *sniff* i used to do it so much.. not to make anyone upset.. but it's what made me, ... well ME.. you know? but yeah i don do that so much no more.. *sigh* lol i'm sure most of you like that.. but i never meant any harm from it.

yeah anyway, if you need some help w/this section too, you know I got'z yo back! I got'z great experiences w/the blue Boid! so yeah.. I MISS MELEE! TIME TO GO PLAY A BIT! =D

-Deuces-
 

metashinryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
632
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Republica Dominicana
1) check the first post, even frame perfect pillar will get shield grabbed. you must leave 20 frames of your opponent being out of shield stun between the shine and dair and dair and shine, so ideal distribution is 10 frames in each gap and most characters grab in under 10 frames. That being said, you're still probably not fast falling asap or being really predictable with your timing, both of which make grabbing you really easy. Anyway, learn to not just pillar their shield, try spacing attacks on the shield so that you can't get grabbed.

2) listen to soap, moonwalk stick movement is inefficient when you can just flick back and practice practice practice.

3) he doesn't go too low, you're just not being fast enough, again, practice practice practice.

it also seems like you could gain a lot from reading the first post in this thread, I'd recommend reading up on that.
1)ok i will try to not get grabbed so often,baybe dair them on back or something

2)yeah i know its kinda faster just flicking it back,but i illusion very often like that,will work on it anyways

3) HE DOES GO LOW,and because of that my fulljump dair doesnt connect in time,it brokes outta hitstun(dairing at the peak of jump,i broke the bad habit :) ) but i found a way to combo him to 50% and then doin it regulary,just shine shine dj fair,it feels weird as hell but resolves hitstun problems at low%
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
mogwai, is it official tho. did pc officially quit melee or is this probably a break?
he hasn't played in at least a month. there has been no official statement from his Public Relations team, but I'd say it's safe to say that PC Chris has quit smash.

3) HE DOES GO LOW,and because of that my fulljump dair doesnt connect in time,it brokes outta hitstun(dairing at the peak of jump,i broke the bad habit :) ) but i found a way to combo him to 50% and then doin it regulary,just shine shine dj fair,it feels weird as hell but resolves hitstun problems at low%
um, just SH dair, why are you full hop dairing fox at low %s after a shine?

Should Falco ever approach from a neutral standpoint? In any matchup ever?
yes. when you have your back to the edge of the stage and have an opponent in the center of the stage, you're typically better off approaching them than camping the edge. Falco has an excellent approach game and while being the aggressor is typically less likely to give you the first hit than your opponent, getting hit in the center of the stage typically doesn't result in a lost stock whereas getting knocked off the edge frequently does. Also, Falco's approach game is good enough that he does break the imbalance of playing defensively (which isn't to say he's not better off playing defensively, but it's not as bad for him to approach as it is for most of the cast).
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
your falco is pretty sick, i saw some you vs axe

i read you were going to the air force?
He's already gone for the air force. He's in way-the-****-north Texas right now for Basic Tech school.

(8:44:26 PM) Timmy: lol you would reply
(8:44:31 PM) lol wut? (tai): ya
(8:44:59 PM) Timmy: lol
(8:45:08 PM) Timmy: he's in the way-the-**** north texas
(8:45:10 PM) Timmy: lol nice
(8:45:15 PM) lol wut? (tai): its true
(8:45:18 PM) Timmy: and it's tech school *******
(8:45:20 PM) Timmy: not basic
(8:45:22 PM) lol wut? (tai): oh
(8:45:24 PM) Timmy: techschool
(8:45:25 PM) Timmy: edit ur ****
(8:45:29 PM) Timmy: i graduated basic
 

P.C. Jona

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,175
tech school?

isnt that army reserve stuff ?

i thought it was like some serious air force stuff
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
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Sierra Vista AZ
=D TIMMYY!!!!!!

Ok, anyways, I just recently picked up Falco, I think it mine is okay, but not that good. Any advice on moving faster like Vman's or Axe's?
Usually one of my smartass replies would come right here but honestl Mogwai couldn't be anymore correct... but yeah pretty much just practice.. You're lucky.. you have Axe/YEAH to train with.. when I was getting advanced.. I relied on countless hours of training mode and youtube! =p so just use what you have you know

Watching right now.. I'll critique ya once i'm finished and help out w/what i can k? =] Glad to see another Falco.. ^^

EDIT: it is serious Air Force stuff.. It's school so I can learn what weapons I use to blow the hell up out of what building and what plane i'm a blow it up with... =p
 

P.C. Jona

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,175
Watching right now.. I'll critique ya once i'm finished and help out w/what i can k? =] Glad to see another Falco.. ^^

EDIT: it is serious Air Force stuff.. It's school so I can learn what weapons I use to blow the hell up out of what building and what plane i'm a blow it up with... =p
cool thanks

if thats what tech school is i wanna go to it haha
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Jona, you really need to work on your consistency. You're quite capable of doing advanced, slick techniques, but you get ahead of yourself a lot and try to do things that you know you can do, but that you can't do consistently yet. It's not a bad idea to slow down a bit and go for the safer option every once in awhile.

Some more specific advice:

as much as we all want shine->uair to work, it doesn't work vs. ANY HORIZONTAL DI, so don't do it.

laser when they're far away, don't laser when they're right on you. You do a lot of full hop lasers from a neutral position when sheik is in position to punish you and you end up eating a lot of unnecessary aerials because of it.

don't always be the aggressor. Sheik thrives on playing defensively and reacting to your mistakes, but if you use your laser to force her to come to you instead, you can generate many more openings.

play with me more. I'm starting to get antsy about not having people to play with and your only 20 minutes away so give me a call/IM/PM sometime and I'll play whenever I'm free after work :p.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
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haha one thing ive been doing lately thats kinda cool.

upthrow shine turn around bair. looks kinda cool at high percents.

been calling it hyperbolic shinechamber. I feel like a noob lol.
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
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Mar 18, 2008
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Dot Dot Dash Dot
Right guys, this is the last time I'll pester you lol.

1) If U Tilt outranges EVERYTHING Falcon (as an example of its range, I don't just mean use it more in the Falcon matchup) can do and has great combo ability and speed, why is it not used more as a defensive move? Why is it not used more in general at that?
2) I see a lot of SH Shine's as a combo starter on a grounded opponent. When, as a general rule, are these better then simple grounded shines?
3) What exactly does DSW do with F Smash? He seems to use in some of the most strange situations and...it almost always works. Is it just player smarts?
4) This is probably the most convoluted question. I was watching DSW against M2k's Marth and noticed he almost always WD's out of shine (except for the occasional SH D Air for shield pressure), assuming because he can get the combo off anyway if it hits. When I was watching Mango's Falco at SPOC against VWins Peach, I noticed his reaction was always a SH (presumably because if it's shielded he can go into shield pressure and if it's not he can go straight into DJ D Air combo). My overdue point is that, is the immediate "reaction" varying because of the players or because of the matchup? If because of the matchup, could you advice the best "reaction" per weight class (other then the obvious WD against spacies).

Sorry if it's difficult to see what I'm asking, ask me to elaborate if any of the questions are unclear.
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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Jona I think you know what to do when you're playing you just aren't very consistent with some of the techs you are trying to do yet. Lke Mogwai said, you don't really laser when they are away from you. In a friendly I guess that's ok but it's something to keep in mind. For sheik specific advice, try to bait the tilts. They have alot of end lag on them so if they whiff you can punish them for it.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Right guys, this is the last time I'll pester you lol.

1) If U Tilt outranges EVERYTHING Falcon (as an example of its range, I don't just mean use it more in the Falcon matchup) can do and has great combo ability and speed, why is it not used more as a defensive move? Why is it not used more in general at that?
well, there are 2 answers to this question. The first is that it is used a **** ton vs. Falcon. Utilt is the main way you keep Falcon's approach in check when you're not shielding. It's also used this way in many matchups, but the short of why you don't see it more in videos is because most Falcos play an overly aggressive style that rarely, if ever, plays defensively. Another part of the equation is that utilt, as a grounded move, isn't particularly mobile and forces you to time it against your opponent rather than letting you control the time of contact the way an aerial would.

The second part is that your initial assumption is wrong. utilt out prioritizes everything that Falcon can do, but he can outspace you with nair, it's just tricky for him to sneak it in and space properly.

2) I see a lot of SH Shine's as a combo starter on a grounded opponent. When, as a general rule, are these better then simple grounded shines?
The main benefit of SH shine on a grounded opponent is the quicker Jump Cancel. If you're grounded, your jump cancel takes 6 frames of jump startup lag before you have control of your character again. If you're midair, there is no startup lag to the double jump, which gives you immediate control of your character.

ok, so that explanation out of the way, you're pretty much always better hitting with a grounded shine if you have the option and you're sure you're going to hit as it give you a wavedash and 2 jumps to work with to figure out your next move. however, if you're not sure if you're going to hit with the shine, you can jump first and it will let you get out of there in case of a failed attempt. The other nice thing is if you're under a platform, you can jump shine -> platform waveland for sexy combos really quickly. Ultimately, this decision isn't one you'll actually have to make frequently since you can usually only hit one type of shine (you've landed after an aerial, gotta do grounded shine... OR ... you popped them up with a dair, you can only run, SH, Shine).

3) What exactly does DSW do with F Smash? He seems to use in some of the most strange situations and...it almost always works. Is it just player smarts?
Shiz has impeccable game sense and knows when to fsmash better than any other Falcos.

The only situation that I've really been able to figure out is that he will knock his opponent into a tech situation, feign a motion towards them, wavedash/waveland backwards and charge fsmash to the tech backwards. Other than that, I can't help you besides telling you to play enough to get the 6th sense for fsmashing.

4) This is probably the most convoluted question. I was watching DSW against M2k's Marth and noticed he almost always WD's out of shine (except for the occasional SH D Air for shield pressure), assuming because he can get the combo off anyway if it hits. When I was watching Mango's Falco at SPOC against VWins Peach, I noticed his reaction was always a SH (presumably because if it's shielded he can go into shield pressure and if it's not he can go straight into DJ D Air combo). My overdue point is that, is the immediate "reaction" varying because of the players or because of the matchup? If because of the matchup, could you advice the best "reaction" per weight class (other then the obvious WD against spacies).
This difference mostly has to do with how these players like to pressure shields. Shiz has double shine mixups and is generally just blazingly fast on shields, which keeps his opponents guessing about how to break out of shield pressure. This uncertainty allows him to just WD after shines that only hit their shield, whereas if you do this consistently, you will just get punished out of shield (be it a grab, shine, up b, w/e). Mango on the other hand spaces a nair backwards after the initial dair -> shine on a shield, pretty much without fail. Which means that if he thinks he's gonna hit your shield, he's just going to do this sequence since it's unpunishable (bar bad spacing...).

If you know you're going to hit them, WDing out of a grounded shine is almost always a lot easier to follow up, but if you're quick, you can follow up in most situations after an empty Short Hop -> Fast Fall, so I'd honestly suggest doing the Mango style follow up if you have any level of uncertainty about whether you'll hit their shield or hit them.
 

P.C. Jona

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Jona I think you know what to do when you're playing you just aren't very consistent with some of the techs you are trying to do yet. Lke Mogwai said, you don't really laser when they are away from you. In a friendly I guess that's ok but it's something to keep in mind. For sheik specific advice, try to bait the tilts. They have alot of end lag on them so if they whiff you can punish them for it.
sheiks tilts have lag? lies

but yea my tech skill is always off since i start as falcon then go to falco

that plus i dont have a way to practice

but yea laser from far away, i should do that haha

i r noob sumtimes but its k cuz i have u guyz :]
 

metashinryu

Smash Ace
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Mar 18, 2009
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um, just SH dair, why are you full hop dairing fox at low %s after a shine?
i cant hit him with a sh dair after a shine unless i wait him to be lower(breaks of hitstun) or can you do it as fast as to catch him before he gets high?(if you can,im not that fast o.o)

and i meant low% like starting from a dair-shine at 0%
 

noodles

Smash Champion
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
2,309
i think you can do shine to grounded shine. oh and if you wait then sh dair fox does a backflip and its awesome. you can shine again after that
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
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i cant hit him with a sh dair after a shine unless i wait him to be lower(breaks of hitstun) or can you do it as fast as to catch him before he gets high?(if you can,im not that fast o.o)

and i meant low% like starting from a dair-shine at 0%
you don't need to act asap
 

Incronaut

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
610
hey, two questions:

one, im getting owned by peach grabs, i get jab cancelled, and i think she has a better grab range than falco does...

and two: what are good ways of tech chasing with falco? i know its harder to do than fox or falcon since falco doesnt have the speed, but i was wondering if there were other options..
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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i dont know what you mean by "i get grabbed cancelled" but falco does have pretty poor grab range but if you mean her grab beats yours when you try to grab, why are you approaching with grab that way anyway?
grabs with falco should be followups from easy setups like lasers, shines, jab resets etc. Things that let you land grabs successfully. Its not worth it to just go for grabs with falco cuz they dotn lead to much.

tech chasing with falco. what i like to do:
1) laser if you know you wont reach them in time.
2) short hop dair.
This usually works from when you know the opponent is going to tech a move easily. For example, vs marth/falcon, i like to Dthrow and then choose a direction to run->sh dair. Mostly forward, i find people tend to tech the dthrow forward the most but even if they tech behind/in place then you're a safe distance away to start the pew pew.
3) mindgame them into running into a Fsmash/downsmash.
for example, when combing fox and he DI'in away to escape and is about to tech, run forward (towards his tech site) and either crouch cancel the run/wd in place into a fsmash (if he techs in place) or reverse fsmash if he tech behind you. people tend to tech behind you when they see you chasing them while they are still in hitstun so its pretty good mindgames.
 

Incronaut

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
610
well, you answered my grab question anyway but you totally misquoted me...

in any case. thanks...

and what should i do against good powershielders who are ****ing up my pew pew?
 
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