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FGD~ Time to get SHTL done

Uzima (Uzi)

Uzima (Uzi)

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,680
Location
Colorado Springs
Toronto Joe said:
lemme sugg ya digg


ill be in xat chat if anyone wants to talk with me, the ms. is being gay so im bored =[
Click to expand...
i just relised i dont have the XAT link in my bookmarks any more, someone post the link, lol


I decided to write a bunch of my thoughts down for smash bros, and this is what i came up with :3
please read and comment ^.^


Smash bros’ theory:
With three iterations of the smash series there has been much change amongst all of them and many many differences, some good some bad.
if all the good aspects of each game were put together and all the bad aspecs changed into good or removed entirely a perfect smash game could be made.
a perfect balance of skill/mindgames, offence combos/defencive DI, character balance, an obvious difference between pros and noobs, character balance. All getting together to make the perfect fighting game.

combos:
1. Combos are a large part of the game, they should have the possibility of 0-death for every character on a god portion of the opposing characters(not just on bowser or some ****) within the possibility for human reaction time and speed, not just TAS videos. These will be very rare and on the higher end of the skill spectrum of players. 50-70% combos should be the norm of a great combo for decent competitive play.

offensive for combos.

attacks

A. types of effects from one attack: soft/hard, sweet/sour
all attacks should have different results from sweet spot sour spot, and hard and soft hits.

SWEET spot should give enough hit stun to allow a combo while sour spot should not or move the opponent in a way where a combo is impossible. I.E. Brawl Marths Up-air, sweet spot allows for combos while sour is a week vertical spacing attack. And his F-smash, lots of hitlag and super strong attack, for killing as well.

SOUR is a second effect of an attack, more on the types of opponent placement manipulation and no real kill moves, allowing you to send him in a direction other than the sweet, I.E. Roy+, sour up-air is a week spike and allows for enemy control and a wider range of possible combos when used effectively.

HARD should have a stronger effect, Used for killing moves and sometimes combos. Brawl Fox’s Nair, allows for combos and kill moves.

SOFT should give a lowered effect of the hard, allowing a combo to be continue with the same style but at much higher percents and under a stricter margin of error. And harder to keep the combo going from using the second part of the attack and having to initiate it earlier to keep the combo going. 64 Jiggs fair, allows combos into rest at much higher percents when used effectively.

HitBoxes:
they should above all else follow the characters animation. Never any larger.

Attacks for gimping should send the opponent below the length of his triple jump, but not longer than a teck jump/wall jump/ grappling hook(link from melee) and there triple jump combined
so player that can tech jump or wall jump then use their triple will be able to recover just fine.

No aerial shall be faster than the base air dodge time to keep from forcing and then punishing an air dodge. Unless used in compase with an l-canceled aerial then a punishing ground attack.


Shield stun:
Shield stun should be able to stop more shield grabs is a hard or sweet spot attack hits but not if a soft or sour one does. Shield breaker combos must be difficult but not impossible, single move shield breakers should not exist and be limited to continues combos of hard or sweet spotted aerials mixed with ending ground attacks (if a ground attack is enough to lead into another one it is usually enough to have it be single move combos or far too easy, using aerial sweet/hard attacks keep the difficulty up and single move combos down to a minimum)

Shield Di:
A form of Di for the shielder should be introduced to allow the shielder to move out of range of the attacked if the attacker doesn’t counter and follow the shielder to keep the sweet/hard hits coming and on timing, or in a direction other than the attacker expected and ending the combo with a shield grab countering the missed sweet/hard and breaking through the soft/sour hit.



DEFENDING

SDI:
SDI: Should be near the 64 style allowing you to move out of the range of multi hit combos if you are good enough at it, and possibly single hit combos with enough skill. (Within human skill levels)

DI:
Allowing the user to change the direction of the attack up to 20 degrees from the base angle.


Momentum canceling DI:
a Form of SDI allowed during hitstun, a skilled player should be able to reduce the knock back to about 75% or normal.

Powershielding:
Should be around 3-4 frame timing, with in the possibility of training and learning, but still hard enough to not happen by fluke all the time.

Ledges:
There should be no auto snap and characters will only grab it if there falling facing the ledge, or use a triple jump having them aimed at it with their head on the top.
I.E. picas up-b will only work with her facing towards the ledge and aiming down at it or perfectly level with it, not coming from below or from the center of the stage, same for fox style triple jumps.

The attach bubble:
should be with in arms reach for the character. SO characters like falcon can reach from further away, but characters like pica have a harder time.
so direct aiming is essential.

L-canceling:
L-canceling should be within the range of the normal player and not requires months of training.
Some where along the lines of 64 timing.


Teching:
Teching should be a little harder than l-canceling but still very possible.

Ledge teching:
Ledge teching shouldn’t be as hard as melees 1 frame timing. Something similar to melee teching but a little harder but still possible, gives the edge defender enough of a boost to counter the no auto snap ledges.

Order of difficulty
1. L-canceling
2. Ground/wall/cealing techs
3. Ledge Teching.

Characters:
all should have at least 4 costumes.
And 3 special ones, the main costume from the old games as a character models.
Possible character differences can be built into a second style costume, I.E. Mario and Dr. Mario as a costume change and attack style difference, but nothing major.


STAGE’s

several types of neutrals, and the ability to turn on and off stage hazards for fun and for pro play.
Stages should have costume changes like characters.


i wrote this all down in like 10 minutes so its kinda funky, but alot of stuff i should've put on paper before hand.
 
Conviction

Conviction

Human Nature
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tl;dr? means..... Also I have some vids of me ****** this guy who got mad I was ****** him wih Fox and then Fox ditto'd me. Too bad I 3 stocked him.... lol I think I can actually make parts of those matches into a combo vid lol it's that much ****.
 
Uzima (Uzi)

Uzima (Uzi)

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,680
Location
Colorado Springs
xIblisx said:
Oh thanks and I actually read it. I hope a next smash bros is actually like that. My favorite was Shield DI.
Click to expand...
I think the bringing back of shield breaker combos, and then adding in the shield DI we bring a WHOLE new style of combos, offencive, and overpowering defensive combos.



im very proud of the attack style descriptions and there perfect uses, specially the sweet spot to make combos, and the soft hits to combo at much higher percents.
 
Conviction

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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LIGHT! we did it!

Fox vs Wolf
Video Analysis: CaliburChamp MK vs Equi Wolf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmm62lhahoA
R00kie Fox vs ? Metaknight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2LeUsJTqL8
M2K MK vs Anti Wolf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1F_mU57auo
Ninja Link Wolf vs R00kie Fox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlCwfUy5t64&fmt=18
Samboner Fox vs Ultimate Razer Snake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW9nH...eature=related
JJ Wolf vs Focus Snake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCf4l...eature=related
Fenrir Fox vs Bonesaw MK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOI11AxO42k&fmt=18

Summary : Quoted from Iblis: "Either that light or they are just ingoring it and just tryna put what they feel after reading solid facts from both sides..

Hey guys please read the past pages so you don't end up looking stupid and posting things that have been repeatly discussed or if want to claim something put some explaination up or shut up. Remember don't be a "highfive".

I say Fox is better still actually from what i see it's a medium to small margin that fox is better being charcter moveset compared.... Match-up compared Fox win small margin.... Tourney results Fox wins small margin which is shown in most current tier list. Adding that up you actually see Fox slowly pulling ahead of Wolf. But by no means nessecary is Wolf a bad character. Just this comparision makes that idea.

Summary for lazy posters...or trolls.

Fox is moblie, better recovery, slightly faster moveset.
Wolf has better aerial momentum.
Fox has 1 more bad MU than Wolf but Wolf's **** MU's characters show up most in tournies whereas only one of Fox's shows up most at tourney.
Fox slight better Rep. than wolf= Fox has the better tourney results
So from looking at past discussion looks like Fox has actually a meduim margin ahead of Wolf."

Fox wins.
 
Lightning93

Lightning93

Smash Champion
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
2,793
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, California
uzimakisensai said:
Great read.
Click to expand...
Amazing ideas Uzi! Be sure to correct your grammar and spelling, then also confirm that you are articulating exactly what you want to say! Go to AIB, make a blog of this once you're done editing, and ask people for their input, ideas, agreements, and disagreements. If people respond tl;dr they probably aren't the ones who shouldn't be helping you in the first place.
xIblisx said:
LIGHT! we did it!
Click to expand...
YESH. But, kind of weird that they chose yours without even editing everything...
 
Conviction

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
Pierce7d said:
I'll be try to be brief.

The reason I think we're better is because when I watch Japanese play, I see elements of gameplay that we're already aware of. My eyes are some of the best for viewing smash at ALL levels of play (not just a high or top level) and I understand almost always why players make the decisions that they do. I think the top players in America are just better than the Japanese ones.

However, I also think the average player in America is absolutely terrible compared to what I think the average player should look like. I am really interested in getting more connected with the Japanese.

Oh, also, in regards to the beginning of the thread. I train with R00kie, the Fox main, as he's in my crew. He utilizes many of the tactics you spoke of (though I always do tell him to use more Nair) and I think you underestimate some of our better Foxes. Remember that there are still good players that don't get as much hype, just because they don't WIN tourneys with their characters. How many people have heard of Pink Fresh before he beat Ally and Boss in low tiers at Battle Royale II? Not me? Was he still a ground-breaking Lucas player before that fated time? Of course. How many people STILL don't know about Pink Fresh?

I do not mean to brag about my personal skill, but I have a very, very trained eye in this game to the point where I could make it a profession if there was a market for it. I can simply tell that our top players are better than theirs.

However, I'm interested on how good their AVERAGE player is. To 95%+ of the community, this is what should concern you. Most of you aren't going to beat 9B just because you're American, because the fact is, even though we say Brawl is simple, and on paper we have astounding mastery of MK and Brawl, the average player is just extremely lacking in terms of pattern recognition, reading, technical skill, spacing and zoning concepts and ability, game physics knowledge, and almost every core skill needed to play. In fact, the only skill that seems to be common is basic follow up recognition, and that's why everyone STILL airdodges nearly two years in.

Before anyone tries to say that I'm being too harsh, I'll give some evidence to back this up.
Deliberate Powershielding non-projectile attacks is extremely uncommon for most people.
Traps evolve very slowly
I don't play ICs, and I bet most of you don't either. I bet you I can still get the first hit on most of you. The average person's spacing and zoning is terrible. I can cripple most players with my Mario still.
Most people still fail to successfully execute juggles. Most people can't even juggle my Ganondorf.
Most people, including myself, still average a minimum of two technical errors a STOCK. I know, because I can READ when people make a technical error.
Most people fail to set up optimal walls with the character they MAIN. Most people don't even realize that walls need mix-ups. Most people still don't seem to understand how to create a wall that also protects against dash into shield/powershield.
Most people still don't understand how to use full jump or crouch.
Most people know about pivot grabbing, but don't properly use it unless they have a tether character.
Most people, INCLUDING MANY PROS STILL RECOVER INCORRECTLY.

Honestly, I don't even think I'm that good at the game. I just have a solid mastery of the basics, and outstanding amounts of memorized knowledge, and an impressive understanding of mechanics. In short, I'm good because I study and understand. Many of you who understand are too scared to even attempt to imply what you understand. I watch so many players pass up edge-guard opportunities because they are too scared to leave the stage, unable to realize how to safely edgeguard. Vertical spacing is a foreign concept to almost everyone (and no, it does not simply mean learning how to beat Dairs with Uairs.)

Honestly, the average player is just so disappointing. I expect every single person here to be able to do ALL of the things I just listed, but I have to applaud if you have mastery in just two of them, and those are just the basics. I don't expect people to understand how to set up perfect edge traps. I don't expect people to understand how to set up level 3, and level 4 traps. I don't expect people to have the reflexes of a spartan. I don't even expect the average player to have a good set or understanding of mindgames. But after playing the game for a YEAR, I do expect people to incorporate certain stuff into their game, and I'm just so generally disappointed when looking at the progress of people. The number of subpar options chosen, versus optimal ones that can be learned just from watching the right videos is pathetic, especially when watching so many top level pattern replication poorly used, because of the lack of understanding.

I'm an extremely interested to know how good the average player in Japan is. Everyone says America is so good. Good compared to other people? I guess. I think there are very few people who are good at this game. I expect the average player to be good. Not great. Not extraordinary, but at least good. Unfortunately, it's not the case. There's always your new guy, or that guy who just doesn't get it. You all know them. The R1 easy win that might as well be a bye for whatever top player he gets paired up against. Still, by R2 in winners bracket, things should get interested. Half the players just got knocked into losers. It's time to cut the crap. Still, R2 is pretty easy for some reason, and smash tourneys don't even get interesting until R3.

My MK is okay. It can beat most people, and I'm decent at the ditto. Still, I shouldn't be able to utterly wreck 90% of the country with it, but I can. Failure to respond to the BASIC patterns and options of the MOST POPULAR CHARACTER, over an entire YEAR since the game came out is pretty bad. I'm not talking about when I properly set up traps, using dtilt, or other such tools. But, simple stuff like getting hit by frame 3 Ftilt still on 3, 2, 1, Go! instead of shielding the obvious swings is ridiculous.

Am I wrong for having such 'high' expectations of people, in what everyone seems to consider an "easy and simple" game?

EDIT: Failed at being brief. TL;DR: You're bad and you should feel bad, so stop pointing fingers at the Japanese, and saying that players much better than you could beat other players much better than you.
Click to expand...

I feel I needed to qoute this and bring a couple a questions that will maybe spark some movement into Fox.

What are Fox's most optimal walls to use?
What traps can Fox create and matain ?
What can Fox due to stop/escape others traps?
What does Fox have stop walls?
How would Fox keep strings going?
In certain situtations what does what Fox do? Example Fox put opponent on lay down because they missed the tech what can Fox do to maintain his advantage or what moves would fox use to able to punish opponet if he can read him?
What good is Fox is in vertical spacing?

If you TL;DR I pity you ...this help Fox as a character or help this Fox community grow as a whole and be on the same level of understanding.
 
Lightning93

Lightning93

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That guy sure knows what he is talking about. My friend Tony, who has barely researched the game here on smashboards and is overwhelmingly self-taught, still performs incredibly well. I believe this is because he has a solid mastery of the basics. He gets his techniques down, knows how to read patterns and manage his own, and abuse the weaknesses in his opponents. Sure, he could be much better, but seeing how relatively uninterested he is in the competitive scene, he is one hell of a player.
 
Conviction

Conviction

Human Nature
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Wow sounds amazing now to shoot him down but I hoping you'd maybe try and you know attempt to answer the questions T.T

Quote from thread State of Brawl in Japan, Tatical Discussion
 
Jenkins

Jenkins

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brawl is srs business.

takes a mastermind to get good at this kiddie game.

WORD UP!
 
Sosuke

Sosuke

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Scrubs win Brawl tournaments all the time.
 
Toronto Joe

Toronto Joe

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On MSN
i avenged your loss to takeover NKB.....via wifi

luzlzuzlzzlzzuzlzlzzuzuzluzlzl!~~

nyaaaaaaaa!~

edit:lmao at pierces post "ill try to be brief" *proceeds to write a page worth of material* haha....bawrl iz ez
 
Zhamy

Zhamy

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Nah, I quit this a while ago. I only stick around the boards to troll you guys.
 
Uzima (Uzi)

Uzima (Uzi)

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Joined
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Messages
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Colorado Springs
omf'ingG

i cant stand my friend any more, he USED to have some honer and played as ganon and combod in melee,
then he went to brawl and plays meta only because he is the best in the game, and now plays as peach just for her d-smash and doesnt combo for crap any more, he has lost that he used to have.

*RAGE!!*
 
Sosuke

Sosuke

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I did the opposite. @_@

I went from Kirby in N64 -> Marth in Melee -> Toon Link in Brawl.
Toon Link is like, 567657543863 times harder to use then the other two.
And it's funner to use technical characters in Melee and N64 for me now. >_<
 
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