Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Espy Rose]

M2K also does it in this match, but it doesn't affect anything: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGEWPiJ5B04

0:57

 

[thrillagorilla]

@fatmanonice: While I don't agree with the idea that meta-games have stalled (some like Kirby have, but a number of others haven't), I do agree that this is mostly due to the band-wagon mentality. Metaknight is easily one of the best characters in the game, perhaps the best (atm I don't think so, I need to see how much more the ICs and Pikachu develop) but forcing an unwarranted ban to try and "fix" the problem is no argument to do it. I sympathize, but I can't say its a good idea. Personally, I'd much rather look into what characters can do for the sake of my own curiosity and seeing how far I can personally take them, even if it isn't very far. There are still things being discovered, even if they don't receive the attention they deserve (Mario's cape teleport and Pikachu's infinate and 0-death that both work on almost all characters). Forcing a ban is not going to change the mentality, it will just change its focus which in the end does nothing except ban a character that has not yet been proven ban-worthy.

 

[Clai]

Can you link me to anything saying otherwise? AFAIK, the WHOBO video thread pointed out whether or not the matches where friendlies, money matches, or tournament matches.

btw, the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8UA3BJIVI

Ri~ght at 1:07.

He used the Dimensional Cape to get himself into an advantageous position.

He did not do it for the purpose of blantant stalling.

This is what the pro-ban side is talking about?

 

[bobson]

Can you link me to anything saying otherwise? AFAIK, the WHOBO video thread pointed out whether or not the matches where friendlies, money matches, or tournament matches.

btw, the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8UA3BJIVI

Ri~ght at 1:07.

Oh, whoops. I thought you were talking about the match where he did it against Xyro, which was quite obviously a friendly because they stopped actually attacking eachother near the end and just started ******* around.

 

[Chuee]

Dude, the number of things you can do to get around it are endless.

That is one of many ways.

True, but it's still good every once in awhile when they don't expect it.

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

so i was really considering starting to get back into competitive smash but after seeing how this is going its pretty sad. MK does not have 100-0 matchups against the entire cast, he actually has even matchups. he is not devoid of weaknesses, why would he be banned. the fact is everyone needs to exploit his weaknesses or talk to top players and learn how theyre handling the matchup.

every fighting game has had characters pull ahead to be overly dominant, and every community has found ways to at least even it out. its to early to go about banning a character, no ones metagame is completely developed, and the fact that MK is so polarizing should make it so everyone elses metagame gets boosted faster.

and whoever said he should be bannedd because he is popular, thats ridiculous, hes only popular because no one is finding ways to wreck his ****.

im done with this debate, im going to go lab my *** off and find ways to take **** MK. any very good MK players pm me and i'll give you my brawl code so we can lab.

 

[Remzi]

He used the Dimensional Cape to get himself into an advantageous position.

He did not do it for the purpose of blantant stalling.

This is what the pro-ban side is talking about?

How the **** is that not broken?

Being able to escape ANY disadvantageous situation at will?

True, but it's still good every once in awhile when they don't expect it.

Of course it is, I'm just saying Marth can't ledgestall.

 

[momochuu]

Algol has no bad matchups
Ask and i will tell you why....

Why? Can't you just bubble them all? >.>

Finally someone posts the EDC. It just looks like a regular IDC to me. How exactly do you do that?

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

Lgol had a weak close range game and while surely it was hard to get in due to bubbles, it wasn't an impossible task, and 4 characters were capale of breaking through, that alone makes a ban sound really odd.

bubbles allowed him to control space, a good algol would use bubbles to prevent you from using whatever move you had to get in, and algol up close was better then most of sc4's cast, taki, talim, mitsurugi ( because of pure damage ) and maybe setsuka were better. but algol had obscene spacial control that didnt have a risk on the end of it, everyone else had to take a risk to control space, thats why he was banned.

ex: astaroth is at long range and wants to keep taki pinned, so he does a long ranged poke ( discus, hades hammer, etc etc ). taki sees the poke and guard impacts which leaves astaroth at a heavy disadvantage and taki is in his face ready to unleash hell.

now algol on the other hand. algol is at long range against taki and spams eltanin naith, taki has no options but to avoid them and possibly eat a launcher for moving or eat an 8 way run attack.

 

[MarKO X]

Why? Can't you just bubble them all? >.>

Finally someone posts the EDC. It just looks like a regular IDC to me. How exactly do you do that?

The same way you do an IDC, just not infinitely. lolololololol

all i can say about that is woooooooow.
mind is blown once again. I might just quit competitive video gaming.

ok, clearly i wont, but yikes....

 

[Clai]

Finally someone posts the EDC. It just looks like a regular IDC to me. How exactly do you do that?

My bet is that M2K probably tapped the c-stick once.

How the **** is that not broken?

Being able to escape ANY disadvantageous situation at will?

You only have a short amount of time to direct it before either A) Metaknight becomes visible or B) you keep pressing the c-stick, stuck in indecision, and get called on for blatant stalling. Most likely the Metaknight is going to just go to the opposite side of the stage; in which case the opponent can just easily chase MK there and possibly punish the end-lag of the move if the opponent's fast enough.

Of course it is, I'm just saying Marth can't ledgestall.

Marth can't ledgestall like Metaknight. True. However, he can do a lot more on the ledge than most characters can say to their credit.

 

[Masmasher@]

Algol isnt banned everywhere but hes is not seen by a large amount. . Bubbles as said above conrol space. Block high and eat a 8way run low block low and eat a lancher for free.. Also bubbles bounce off walls so caged and walled stages are HIGHLY in his favor. Guard impact and get a chair crossup lol. Also this doesnt say much but those of you that say a character should be banned cause they are too good
Ladies and gentleman may i introduce.... yoda. Who is NOWHERE NEAR GOOD and is banned...

 

[OverLade]

IDC was legal at WHOBO. For those who dont know...

 

['V']

Look up Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution 2. Then look up Kabuto. If you really need that much of a criteria for banning a character, there you go.

 

[Steel]

My bet is that M2K probably tapped the c-stick once.



You only have a short amount of time to direct it before either A) Metaknight becomes visible or B) you keep pressing the c-stick, stuck in indecision, and get called on for blatant stalling. Most likely the Metaknight is going to just go to the opposite side of the stage; in which case the opponent can just easily chase MK there and possibly punish the end-lag of the move if the opponent's fast enough.



Marth can't ledgestall like Metaknight. True. However, he can do a lot more on the ledge than most characters can say to their credit.

>_>

With EDC Meta Knight has a 100% GTFO option, if he's in any bad scenario he can EDC to the other side of the stage and get on the ledge to completely reset the situation back to neutral.

The only downside is marginable start up frames for IDC, but it's broken. People just don't abuse it enough atm.

 

[gantrain05]

How the **** is that not broken?

Being able to escape ANY disadvantageous situation at will?

doesn't G&W do the same thing with his ^B, same concept, using a move to escape a bad situation.

 

[momochuu]

yoda.

He's only banned because the others are banned. >_> All of the star wars characters are mediocre. The only thing special about Yoda is that you can only hit him with lows.

 

[Espy Rose]

IDC was legal at WHOBO. For those who dont know...

I don't think that's the issue.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Forget IDC.

He is potent in the top levels of tourney play. But it is possible to beat him.

But on the bottom....

He is everywhere. And is usually too difficult to get by. He has a ridiculously high amount of people contributing to his spam wave.

I say this as a Mk main.

 

[Chuee]

Look up Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution. Then look up Kabuto. If you really need that much of a criteria for banning a character, there you go.

Why was he banned (out of curiosity). I don't know anything about the game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

bubbles allowed him to control space, a good algol would use bubbles to prevent you from using whatever move you had to get in, and algol up close was better then most of sc4's cast, taki, talim, mitsurugi ( because of pure damage ) and maybe setsuka were better. but algol had obscene spacial control that didnt have a risk on the end of it, everyone else had to take a risk to control space, thats why he was banned.

ex: astaroth is at long range and wants to keep taki pinned, so he does a long ranged poke ( discus, hades hammer, etc etc ). taki sees the poke and guard impacts which leaves astaroth at a heavy disadvantage and taki is in his face ready to unleash hell.

now algol on the other hand. algol is at long range against taki and spams eltanin naith, taki has no options but to avoid them and possibly eat a launcher for moving or eat an 8 way run attack.

What about against the 4 whom he was disadvantaged against? Again he can't be banned if there are 4 characters who are capable of breaking through and ****** him.

i just makes no sense.
Al gol gets banned even though he has 4 disadvantaged matchups?
Meanwhile those above him who have have better matchups are not banned?
it sounds more like an ssue on people just not wanting to simply switch to a different character.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Forget IDC.

He is potent in the top levels of tourney play. But it is possible to beat him.

But on the bottom....

He is everywhere. And is usually too difficult to get by. He has a ridiculously high amount of people contributing to his spam wave.

I say this as a Mk main.

Where did thrillagorrila go?

 

[Supersun]

Why was he banned (out of curiosity). I don't know anything about the game.

Imagine Smash. Now imagine a character that dropped a % every second. Yeah, that's more or less Kabuto (at least in #2 not sure if it was the same in #1).

 

[MarKO X]

doesn't G&W do the same thing with his ^B, same concept, using a move to escape a bad situation.

except, he's punishable on the way down, and he can't go all the way to the other side of the stage 100% safely.

like, there are clearly obvious differences.

 

['V']

Why was he banned (out of curiosity). I don't know anything about the game.

You can literally just spam Back-B and be completely safe. That attack has invincibility before, during, and after the initiation. And he gains back half the damage he took on every attack that hit him, meaning he essentially has twice the life bar or every character in the game. Options that no other character has. Not to mention he already has good combos and does good damage to start with.

 

[Chuee]

And he gains back half the damage he took on every attack that hit him, meaning he essentially has twice the life bar or every character in the game.

Kinda like weapons in SCII that regenerated health?

 

[thrillagorilla]

Where did thrillagorrila go?

I didn't go anywhere... why do you ask?

 

[Rykoshet]

Proof, like with a video or something, is all I would take as evidence. Hearsay is completely useless.

That right there is why it's used. TVs dont get monitored enough on the way up for someone to make that claim and have it backed up.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You can literally just spam Back-B and be completely safe. That attack has invincibility before, during, and after the initiation. And he gains back half the damage he took on every attack that hit him, meaning he essentially has twice the life bar or every character in the game. Options that no other character has. Not to mention he already has good combos and does good damage to start with.

Some of that reminds me of MK, but it's been discussed alot. There's no reason Kabuto wouldn't be banned.

 

[dextasmurf]

KING KONG AINT GOT ****TT ON meTA KNIGHT LOL....

 

[thrillagorilla]

That right there is why it's used. TVs dont get monitored enough on the way up for someone to make that claim and have it backed up.

If it is used then all that needs to be done is pause the game, call over a TO and have it monitored the rest of the match.

 

[Masmasher@]

What about against the 4 whom he was disadvantaged against? Again he can't be banned if there are 4 characters who are capable of breaking through and ****** him.

i just makes no sense.
Al gol gets banned even though he has 4 disadvantaged matchups?
Meanwhile those above him who have have better matchups are not banned?
it sounds more like an ssue on people just not wanting to simply switch to a different character.

Those characters arent advantaged against him they just have tools to stop predictable bubble spam. The matchups havent been done any justise because hardly anyone plays as him. Really the algol isnt playing gay enough if those characters are giving him a hard time. As a yoshi main its rough lol I have to camp.


Also the other star wars characters arent banned kawali bunny just yoda...

 

[Overclassed]

Serious question:

How the HELL is IDC stalling?

If you have more % than me, and I can dissapear forever, for Christs sakes, why wouldn't that be a legitimate option? Calling IDC 'stalling' is ridiculous if Waro "Avoiding conflict" is not considered stalling.

Come on guys. Consistency is key.

 

['V']

Kinda like weapons in SCII that regenerated health?

Yeah that was kinda stupid too. I don't think they allowed those in tourneys though. In any case, it was more about that invincible attack. It didn't have any lag either and plenty of guard stun, so it was very much unpunishable. Even certain specials couldn't beat it.

 

[Rykoshet]

If it is used then all that needs to be done is pause the game, call over a TO and have it monitored the rest of the match.

Pausing in of itself can be called on to DQ the match, and really all it takes is once at the right moment, who the hell cares if someone is babysitting after the fact.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Serious question:

How the HELL is IDC stalling?

If you have more % than me, and I can dissapear forever, for Christs sakes, why wouldn't that be a legitimate option? Calling IDC 'stalling' is ridiculous if Waro "Avoiding conflict" is not considered stalling.

Come on guys. Consistency is key.

It prematurely ends competition. There is nothing the opposing player can do. It ENDS COMPETITION. There is no way for Wario to indefinitely stall on any of the currently legal stages as far as I know. IDC has that capability anywhere. That's the difference.

 

[Master Raven]

Serious question:

How the HELL is IDC stalling?

If you have more % than me, and I can dissapear forever, for Christs sakes, why wouldn't that be a legitimate option? Calling IDC 'stalling' is ridiculous if Waro "Avoiding conflict" is not considered stalling.

Come on guys. Consistency is key.

There is absolutely no way to hit MK out of his IDC. All you have to do is get the % lead, use the IDC and you might as well get a Turbo controller or something to keep it going for the duration of the match, whereas it's still possible to hit Wario out of his air camping if you're careful enough.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Pausing in of itself can be called on to DQ the match, and really all it takes is once at the right moment, who the hell cares if someone is babysitting after the fact.

It means it won't happen again, and a match is rarely decided on a single choice. As to the pausing, why would you be disqualified if you are the one calling the TO over?

Edit: Also, the TO can look at where the characters are when the game is paused. Its not difficult to ascertain what is going on if Metaknight is nowhere to be found on the screen.

 

[MarKO X]

IDC is stalling because you become infinitely invisible and invincible on any stage.

EDC technically isn't infinitely using the DC, so you're not stalling, but rather using it to gain wutever safe advantage you want.

So like, you can air camp to EDC to air camp again. That sounds like fun, i wanna try that.

 

[IxxI]

From the way things are looking, Metaknight isn't going to be banned.