Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Tien2500]

*blinks twice*

did this just turn into a ban ICs thread?

Might as well. We've said all we can about MK. Lol.

But what about those that can't? They get punished for not being able to run away?

Those who can't what? Get away from the ICs?

 

[Pierce7d]

I am not arguing that Ice Climbers take no skill to perform. I'm arguing that they level out skill dramatically.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Well first off I main ICs, but anyways,

have you tried playing ICs at a competitive level? The level of skill required to even keep Nana alive against a really good player is ridiculous, let alone get a grab with one of the worst grab ranges in the game. Also, you act like tripping into a Snake Fsmash etc etc isn't almost as terrible as tripping into a CG. Tripping as a whole is stupid.

Tripping into a snake Fsmash isnt a guaranteed kill. unlike the climbers.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I am not arguing that Ice Climbers take no skill to perform. I'm arguing that they level out skill dramatically.

LOL I don't know how many of you know Fluxus, the MK from CO, but he was doing some friendlies with this seven year old he had just beaten at a tournament. He kinda sucked, but ya know...he was seven... The kid goes IC's and Flux goes Ganondorf. We're all joking around about the 100-0 matchup, then the kid grabs him. He does forward throw, Nana footstool, I block, and repeated till like 100...We were all like 0_o

 

[Pierce7d]

Tripping into a snake Fsmash isnt a guaranteed kill. unlike the climbers.

Exactly. If Snake is fsmashing, you have enough time to react and not dash either way, and shield. IC can dash grab you though, especially if you trip while buffering punishment or a jump away.

Plus, tripping into kill moves while at kill percent sucks, but at least you were at kill percents. Tripping into grab at 7% and losing a stock is quite ridiculous.

 

[Hobobloke]

Those who can't what? Get away from the ICs?

Yes, after they get a lead (which is easy because all it takes is one grab) alot of characters can't camp them and are forced to approach and not make any mistakes whatsoever or risk another stock.

 

[Sosuke]

Never run ever

 

[Tien2500]

Exactly. If Snake is fsmashing, you have enough time to react and not dash either way, and shield. IC can dash grab you though, especially if you trip while buffering punishment or a jump away.

Plus, tripping into kill moves while at kill percent sucks, but at least you were at kill percents. Tripping into grab at 7% and losing a stock is quite ridiculous.

Tripping is ridiculous in general. You might as well ban tripping.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Exactly. If Snake is fsmashing, you have enough time to react and not dash either way, and shield. IC can dash grab you though, especially if you trip while buffering punishment or a jump away.

Plus, tripping into kill moves while at kill percent sucks, but at least you were at kill percents. Tripping into grab at 7% and losing a stock is quite ridiculous.

God Pierce...Stop being so quoteable... This so much again...

 

[Tien2500]

Yes, after they get a lead (which is easy because all it takes is one grab) alot of characters can't camp them and are forced to approach and not make any mistakes whatsoever or risk another stock.

Counterpick. Counterpick to a stage they're bad on or cp a character that is good against them. We all have really tough matchups. Unless we main top tiers.

 

[MarKO X]

LOL I don't know how many of you know Fluxus, the MK from CO, but he was doing some friendlies with this seven year old he had just beaten at a tournament. He kinda sucked, but ya know...he was seven... The kid goes IC's and Flux goes Ganondorf. We're all joking around about the 100-0 matchup, then the kid grabs him. He does forward throw, Nana footstool, I block, and repeated till like 100...We were all like 0_o

no wai!
10unbelievables

wait, if IC gets banned, Ganon is still unviable.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I wasn't making a point...Cool story, bro would have fit much better.

+1 post for this?

 

['V']

wait, if IC gets banned, Ganon is still unviable.

Same could be said with Meta Knight, which is why this whole thing is silly. =P

 

[Pierce7d]

Also let's not forget IC can both approach and camp vs. any character not named Solid Snake due to desynced Blizzard and Ice Blocks.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ban MK yo. I cant beat my 5 month old cousin's mk cause he keeps pressing that b button and i cant gimp him .

 

[Hobobloke]

Counterpick. Counterpick to a stage they're bad on or cp a character that is good against them. We all have really tough matchups. Unless we main top tiers.

I never said they were unbeatable just the CG's are really lame. Also let's say they win on the neutral, I CP Rainbow Cruise or something and win, then they CP FD and win the last match.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Pierce7d:

Possible the best hijack ever. Kudos, man.

 

[bobson]

Also let's not forget IC can both approach and camp vs. any character not named Solid Snake due to desynced Blizzard and Ice Blocks.

Mario stomps all over that with fireballs/FLUDD.

 

[Tien2500]

Also let's not forget IC can both approach and camp vs. any character not named Solid Snake due to desynced Blizzard and Ice Blocks.

Hmmmm. Can they outcamp ROB? Lucario? Zelda? Ivysaur? Squirtle? Wario?

 

[MarKO X]

Same could be said with Meta Knight, which is why this whole thing is silly. =P

lol
i'm pretty sure that more characters would become more viable if MK gets banned than if IC gets banned.

BUT

I encourage you to prove me wrong for the lulx

 

[MarKO X]

Hmmmm. Can they outcamp ROB? Lucario? Zelda? Ivysaur? Squirtle? Wario? MetaKnight?

*fixed.
because remember, MK can definitely camp.

 

[:mad:]

Hmmmm. Can they outcamp ROB? Lucario? Zelda? Ivysaur? Squirtle? Wario?

Zelda can effectively camp? That's news to the smash community.

 

[Sosuke]

TL beats ICs too


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243135

 

[Tien2500]

I never said they were unbeatable just the CG's are really lame. Also let's say they win on the neutral, I CP Rainbow Cruise or something and win, then they CP FD and win the last match.

Why didn't you ban FD O_O... That was dumb of you. And CP a character who won't get get beaten badly by them. There's a lot of them out there.

lol
i'm pretty sure that more characters would become more viable if MK gets banned than if IC gets banned.

BUT

I encourage you to prove me wrong for the lulx

So who do you think is becoming considerably more viable if MK is banned? Sorry if this has been addressed but I'm not reading through 4000 posts.

 

[Tien2500]

Zelda can effectively camp? That's news to the smash community.

I wasn't being rhetorical. Lol. I was legitimately asking. Those seemed like characters off the top of my head that might be able to deal with it. Dunno too much about Zelda's game.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Same could be said with Meta Knight, which is why this whole thing is silly. =P

Nobody has argued that the mid/low tier characters would instantly have it better with Metaknight gone. Overall, a majority of the cast would lose a crappy match up but, depending on which characters became popular in particular regions after Metaknight was banned, some characters would either have it better or worse but it's very doubtful that any character would have better or worse across the board. For example, with Olimar, things would become better for him if the number of King Dedede players increased but they would become worse if the number of Peach players increased. Because Metaknight's popular across all regions (I think he's only one truthfully) and being the best character, everyone would benefit (at least early on) in general with him gone except Yoshi and Jigglypuff who are ***** worse by the other top/high tier characters.

 

[Master Raven]

I love how this topic is mostly an ICs thread.

**** I can't wait until more people start picking them up LOL

 

[Pierce7d]

I never said they were unbeatable just the CG's are really lame. Also let's say they win on the neutral, I CP Rainbow Cruise or something and win, then they CP FD and win the last match.

^THIS. The problem is, characters like R.O.B., Pit, and TL who can fight ICs due to being ultimate camper, can get horribly countered, and similarly to MK you MUST win R1 because of it. Being forced to switch to an unviable character is simply inviting the broken stategy of win on double blind R1 ICs, lose R2 so your opponent is forced to switch, counter-pick a 7-3 R3, GGs.

Solid Snake is the ONLY reason I'm not hitting the panic button on IC if MK gets banned. He counters them, and doesn't have a 7-3.

 

[Remzi]

It does not push you much further, but the push you get is usually just enough to get you out of range. The one M2K did was more than one tap of the c-stick.

It will make people paranoid. Let's look at this scenario:

I'm pressuring an MK, I fair him and he does a standard DC away from me. He timed it well and I was unable to punish, I think to myself "hey i think he went a little further than normal, i think i may have heard a clicking sound when he did it too" so I end up calling over a TO and we have a bunch of problems that can't be solved by either side. I'm swearing my *** off that he pushed up on the c-stick and went way further than usual. The TO decides to watch the rest of the match and nothing happens for the remainder of the match. All in all we caused some heart-ache, after the match I'm still convinced he did it. Me and that player now have a lot of problems, the TO now has trouble trusting both players.

Now lets look at another scenario:

I'm playing an MK, last stock and high percents. Game 3. I pressure him to the edge of the stage and he EDCs to the middle. I dash > usmash in an attempt to punish and win, but it whiffs because of the extra distance. He punishes with Dsmash for the kill and win. I'm pretty sure he used EDC so I call the TO. No proof. Just both of us promising our side of the story is true. MK takes the win.

In either scenario, witnesses aren't really sure either. They don't wanna make the wrong call so they abstain from answering. Or if they do call it, theres a good chance they make the wrong one.

This will cause far too many problems if people start using it at all.

Just incase people start talking about how people can lie about D3 infinites too, thats completely different. Lets say I'm Mario and I get regrabbed, I can pause after the first regrab. Call a TO, it won't happen anymore. Thats just a few percent, nothing big. Also, witnesses can EASILY identify this. On top of all of that, this rule is less likely to be violated and lied about, because the victim is 100% sure that it happened. With EDC, the victim can't be 100% sure and because of that, the violator knows it's easier to lie about and get away with.

So can we agree that I ***** the **** out of the EDC argument xD

curious how Avarice and others would reply

lol i usually dont quote my own posts but i need some sort of anti ban reply....

 

[MarKO X]

So who do you think is becoming considerably more viable if MK is banned? Sorry if this has been addressed but I'm not reading through 4000 posts.

From what I gather in this thread, Snake (duh), Wario, Diddy, Falco, DDD, Marth, GnW, and Olimar can gain more viability. I've also heard accounts of Peach, Toon Link and someone else becoming more viable with MK gone, but I'm pretty sure that the rest of S tier and a solid part of A tier can then win tourneys.

 

[Sosuke]

So can we agree that I ***** the **** out of the EDC argument xD

curious how Avarice and others would reply

lol i usually dont quote my own posts but i need some sort of anti ban reply....

Be like him and keep quoting it and posting in a cocky manner.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Bengalz just ***** the EDC argument . <3 Btw ban mk yo, hes broken :/.

 

[Tien2500]

From what I gather in this thread, Snake (duh), Wario, Diddy, Falco, DDD, Marth, GnW, and Olimar can gain more viability. I've also heard accounts of Peach, Toon Link and someone else becoming more viable with MK gone, but I'm pretty sure that the rest of S tier and a solid part of A tier can then win tourneys.

From what I understand Game and Watch has a tougher match with Snake. So assuming most MKs who are playing to win switch to Snake I don't think he'd really be helped. Most of those characters don't seem to do that badly against MK anyway (besides Marth). I thought S tier was considered viable anyways.

Would Tlink and Peach really be viable without MK? It seems farfetched that mid tier characters are only there because of MK. Characters like Marth and Pika have very tough matchups with MK and they're still up there on the tier list so I have to think there is something else holding Peach and Tlink back.

 

[MarKO X]

I think they went to try out the EDC on a CPU or something and were like "My Gawd......."

I like Sasuke's idea, because all I see them saying is ban the move, and banning a move is basically saying the move makes MK too good.

 

[Overclassed]

Woah, woah. Hey.

What if we only ban the EDC when it clearly gives MK an advantage?

I mean, maybe it actually hurts him somethimes, like the c-stick might slip.

Those instances really shouldn't be banned.

Also, before anyone makes a fool of themselves...

If you're discussing IC infinites and you suggest using the COUNTERPICK SYSTEM, please make sure you did NOT earlier say that the counterpick system was not an important part of Brawl's competitive condition (anti-ban essay, I'm looking at you o.O)

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

 

[Tien2500]

Woah, woah. Hey.

What if we only ban the EDC when it clearly gives MK an advantage?

I mean, maybe it actually hurts him somethimes, like the c-stick might slip.

Those instances really shouldn't be banned.

Also, before anyone makes a fool of themselves...

If you're discussing IC infinites and you suggest using the COUNTERPICK SYSTEM, please make sure you did NOT earlier say that the counterpick system was not an important part of Brawl's competitive condition (anti-ban essay, I'm looking at you o.O)

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

CPing is awesome. I love it.

And banning EDC in certain situations and not others is absolutely impossible to monitor. And I've never accidentally hit the Cstick when doing my Down B. Seriously if my hand is on the B button I'm not sure how it would get to Cstick without my trying...

 

[Pr0phetic]

It is banned at most tourneys and on the SBR Approved ruleset.

 

[Brinzy]

If you're discussing IC infinites and you suggest using the COUNTERPICK SYSTEM, please make sure you did NOT earlier say that the counterpick system was not an important part of Brawl's competitive condition (anti-ban essay, I'm looking at you o.O)

Maybe I missed or misunderstood something, but since when in the hell is this what the anti-ban is saying?

 

[Pierce7d]

Woah, woah. Hey.

What if we only ban the EDC when it clearly gives MK an advantage?

I mean, maybe it actually hurts him somethimes, like the c-stick might slip.

Those instances really shouldn't be banned.

Also, before anyone makes a fool of themselves...

If you're discussing IC infinites and you suggest using the COUNTERPICK SYSTEM, please make sure you did NOT earlier say that the counterpick system was not an important part of Brawl's competitive condition (anti-ban essay, I'm looking at you o.O)

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Uh, I think the counter-pick system is UNDERUSED and extremely powerful. If you win R1, and your opponent does not choose MK or Snake R3, you SHOULD win at reasonably high enough levels of play. I think MK breaks the CP system, but I don't think that's bad, because he saves it from being OP. I think abusing IC and the CP system is the easiest way to win at Brawl right now.

Step one: Double Blind into IC and win R1
Step two: Remain IC and lose on some dumb stage with a campy, yet unviable character.
Step three: Choose a neutral, and win with a hard counter.

If your opponent doesn't go Snake, MK, or ICs, GGs

 

[MarKO X]

It is banned at most tourneys and on the SBR Approved ruleset.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8UA3BJIVI
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216278&highlight=whobo

those two links say otherwise......