Frigate Orpheon: Neutral or Counterpick? ~

[Ulevo]

I would like to hear some solid suggestions as to why this stage should be counterpick. I personally see it as Neutral, but everyone seems to claim otherwise. The stage flip effects everone the same way and is very avoidable, and any character with good recovery that would be able to return on the one side lacking a ledge would have just as much of an advantage on any other neutral.

 

[Sinz]

This stage is so counterpick it isn't funny. If it is Neutral have fun playing against Snakes.

 

[Ulevo]

This stage is so counterpick it isn't funny. If it is Neutral have fun playing against Snakes.

Way to contribute.


Anyone else have some good reasons why this stage isn't neutral.

 

[ph00tbag]

Neutral? With an edge that can't be tethered? Neutral stages are supposed to give the smallest advantages in the fewest match-ups, and all match-ups for tether recovery characters would be really bad on Orpheon. The stage is a counterpick.

 

[MysticKenji]

Neutral stages cannot have a missing ledge.

 

[Ulevo]

1) The stage only has one missing ledge during the first transformation of the level. During the other transformations, it has two, which equates it to a regular neutral like Yoshi's Island for example. Half the time there is a platform near the edge that is missing. The amount of missing edges is minimal.

2) Tether recoveries can be gimped by simply edge hogging on ANY level. By the ledge being absent, it only acts as a player edge hogging them. It effects all characters except those with crazy recovery, which have advantages on other neutrals anyway. Tether recoveries are not the only characters to have a flaw here.

3) The other tether recovery characters effected by this are Ivysaur and Olimar. Zamus has her Down B, Samus and Link have there Up B, as does Sheik.

 

[RT]

Counter-pick. Neutral stages should have properties that do not overly interfere with the match, whether it be stage hazards, auto-scrolling, etc.

 

[notftomearth7]

I mean, it really COULD be neutral if your not a N00B, but in the interest of fairness, I would say counterpick.

 

[fkacyan]

Ungrabbable edges.

/thread

 

[blazingIKE33]

i htink this stage is sooooo counterpick. Neutral stages are not missing a ledge

 

[Overswarm]

This is like, the perfect counterpick stage. Definitely not a starter.

 

[Ban3]

this stage should be counter pick because to me neutral stages are even, they dont favor one thing over another. a neutral stage should not have any distractions or anything that would draw attention to anything but ur opponent. this stage does not have this quality, because the stupid stage flips over poteintaial leading into a sd

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Counterpick. Characters with multiple jumps have an advantage over those with average recoveries, and ungrabbable edges give more of an advantage for non-tether characters.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

As a starting stage? It doesnt really fit the bill of relative neutrality among characters. In the first transition, you have two things to watch out for; a temporary wall and a ledge impossible to grab. You obviously can't infinite on the wall because the platform rises, but G&W's Dtilt can certainly rack up a good deal of damage and hit with a finisher in the time for it to go make to the middle position. When it's up, its incredibly hard for characters to recover. You cant grab the edge, so you must land on ground, or on the upper platform, meaning it's incredibly easy to ledgeguard. Also, it's a very bad situation for characters with only tether recoveries.

The transition is also a problem. It puts many people in an awkward position, whether they end up under the stage or far out to the sides. Oh, and this scatters all of Olimar's pikmin, making this transition almost like a free stock.

The second part isnt so bad, and the only real issue I see with this might be the moving platforms off stage. If you use a get up attack or roll on this and it pulls offscreen, you're dead. If an opponent grabs you and already has the stock advantage, he can easily carry you off with himself.

So all in all, it's a great counterpick, one of my favorites, but it doesnt seem to be a quality neutral stage.

 

[SuperRacoon]

Yeah, there are really only about 5 stages that can truly be consider neutral, this isn't one of them.

 

[Rhubarbo]

It's a CP.

 

[Declan]

1) The stage only has one missing ledge during the first transformation of the level. During the other transformations, it has two, which equates it to a regular neutral like Yoshi's Island for example. Half the time there is a platform near the edge that is missing. The amount of missing edges is minimal.

2) Tether recoveries can be gimped by simply edge hogging on ANY level. By the ledge being absent, it only acts as a player edge hogging them. It effects all characters except those with crazy recovery, which have advantages on other neutrals anyway. Tether recoveries are not the only characters to have a flaw here.

3) The other tether recovery characters effected by this are Ivysaur and Olimar. Zamus has her Down B, Samus and Link have there Up B, as does Sheik.

Ummm ya that's exactly right. Edge hogging is an AT (simple but still) so if the stage is effective using ATs against you then it isn't neutral. It's as simple as that. Also, your opponent can jump off the stage to "edge guard" making it almost impossible for many chars to get back.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

3 out of 4 grabbable edges= more than most neutrals= more neutral than FD muhahahaha

 

[Metal_Dave]

Ungrabbable edges.

/thread

No where near being a neutral. This stage is purely a counterpick stage.

 

[Demenise]

1) The stage only has one missing ledge during the first transformation of the level. During the other transformations, it has two, which equates it to a regular neutral like Yoshi's Island for example. Half the time there is a platform near the edge that is missing. The amount of missing edges is minimal.

2) Tether recoveries can be gimped by simply edge hogging on ANY level. By the ledge being absent, it only acts as a player edge hogging them. It effects all characters except those with crazy recovery, which have advantages on other neutrals anyway. Tether recoveries are not the only characters to have a flaw here.

3) The other tether recovery characters effected by this are Ivysaur and Olimar. Zamus has her Down B, Samus and Link have there Up B, as does Sheik.

1) Yes, but that first transformation, it's a free stock loss to many. And a free stock makes the game uneven if it's that cheap.

2) The difference is that you can get the person OFF of the ledge. With Ivy, you can Razor Leaf them, or at least hit them, then grab the ledge. You can't when there are no ledges.

3) If even two characters have that bad of a disadvantage on this stage, it's still not fair.

 

[Gamekidadv]

I love this stage, its one of my favorite in the game. However, that impossible to grab ledge, and bad personal experience with stage flipping(though I acknowledge this as avoidable for the most part), make me lean toward counter pick.

 

[Wander]

Counterpick. Olimar and Ivysaur are even more vulnerable here than they usually are; all it takes is a toss off the right side and they're pretty much out a stock. The stage flip, while avoidable, can still interfere with the fight and possibly lead to unpredicted KOs. The general layout is neutral, but the ungrabbable ledge and the flipping are not.

 

[Amarkov]

Unfortunately, counterpick. If Olimar or Ivysaur are knocked off the right side during the first transformation, they pretty much immediately lose a stock. That is not neutral in any way.

 

[icewolf2249]

It's a great counterpick, but that ledge will always keep it from being neutral.

 

[Airgemini]

I'd guess CP.

 

[Tandy]

counterpick only because of olimar and zamus...they get shafted by tether recovry really easy on this map..whenever olimar bans delphino i use frigate instead