G&W, underrated or bad?

[FrenkM0J0]

I've been playing melee for a long time now, and I can do all sorts of advanced techniques, and when I play friends I usually destroy them with G&W. When I look at the actual pro circuit, or on youtube, I always see that G&W players do well, but eventually lose. also on smashwikia, and on the tier lists, he is supposedly really bad. In my experience, he is really underrated. Is this true or is he just bad?

 

[Son of Slobodan]

I love this character and I would main him if I could (and I did when i first started playing) but he has really unfortunate flaws. For one, his shield leaves half of his body exposed, which I'm assuming is a bug because it literally leaves his head, nose, and limbs vulnerable even without decay. So along with this unfortunate bug, he has one of the, if not the slowest tech roll and spot dodge in the game. So his defensive options are abysmal for no good reason, especially when he's one of the lightest and easiest characters to kill in the game... Additionally his uair, nair, and bair cannot be l-canceled for whatever reason so that really limits you to fair most of the time. His fair, nair, d-tilt and f-tilt are amazing moves, but they aren't enough to make up for his fundamental flaws.

It's really unfortunate because if they fixed these issues before release I think he would definitely be a viable, luigi-tier kind of character. His moveset is really solid but he has so many core disadvantages that he's essentially just broken (probably the last character they worked on). For example, if a fox nairs on your shield and shines, you will almost definitely get poked and you really have no tools to avoid pressure other than his good wavedash.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

He loses every match-up that matters and there are better low tiers as a whole. Honestly he is very untapped but i honestly feel only marth has come close to his true limit in this game even still there's more.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

I love this character and I would main him if I could (and I did when i first started playing) but he has really unfortunate flaws. For one, his shield leaves half of his body exposed, which I'm assuming is a bug because it literally leaves his head, nose, and limbs vulnerable even without decay. So along with this unfortunate bug, he has one of the, if not the slowest tech roll and spot dodge in the game. So his defensive options are abysmal for no good reason, especially when he's one of the lightest and easiest characters to kill in the game... Additionally his uair, nair, and bair cannot be l-canceled for whatever reason so that really limits you to fair most of the time. His fair, nair, d-tilt and f-tilt are amazing moves, but they aren't enough to make up for his fundamental flaws.

It's really unfortunate because if they fixed these issues before release I think he would definitely be a viable, luigi-tier kind of character. His moveset is really solid but he has so many core disadvantages that he's essentially just broken (probably the last character they worked on). For example, if a fox nairs on your shield and shines, you will almost definitely get poked and you really have no tools to avoid pressure other than his good wavedash.

I agree with you that he has flaws, but when you really try to only use fairs, dairs, nairs, and uairs as your airials, you have a pretty solid, good priority shffl game.

 

[Oskurito]

G&W has great recovery, decent combos, great gimps (he can reach far like other characters can't and still make it back). He's got some weird hitboxes fair seems to be disjointed and his attacks have good priority.

His downfall is that he's on the same weight class as jigglypuff! he's really easy to kill.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

watch wishes he could live like puff, crap falcon's knees kill him earlier than pichu just because how slidly he is. watch has a punishment game like gannon's but i,m not sure watch can pretend he has a neutral game as good as gannon or say his grab is gannon good(better vs ffers than gannon but gannon can just lay in deep chain throws) and gannon's fair in place can make marth's fair miss and smack him in the face.watch can't compare to gannon's stage control or the fact gannon isn't auto gimped/chain throwen/tech chased near as hard as watch. gannon goes for rides but they at least last longer and a few more chances out.

I am very air/waveland based as watch and edge cancel everything and keep a very fast pace of movement and safe attacks. while I can box space naimlas in much better a watch than I can as gannon/zedla I just feel like at 0% if I corner fox if I land a fair when he jumps it isn't a very high reward compared to zedla/gannon who can get fast results and always bank on a landed fair. I could go for nair which I could and even get some crazy stuff going if I edge cancel I feel the start up is to great for it to be any more than a great read that can be read back and in the long run is very dangerous.

like fox could running full jump niar/bair through a full hop nair(assuming we jump about the same time). but bair feels like that move I can be happy landing at 0% vs fox due to the it being the most hitbox frame coverage air move watch has, low lag, waveland/2nd jump threats and based on di I can chain it, bair nair/dair(one of the maniler watch combos that) or it leads to pretendable jump outs that You can nair or they are forced to tech(You can waveland/2nd jump chase)

and say I di out hard of the 2nd bair and they escape somehow. they're at 30% and I'd be more than happy to smack fox out of the air with a fair.


but all this said even if I can beat fox players with watch and zone them out and have even made a falco player say"man there's nothing I can do" I still don't think watch's neutral game is yet proven strong enough nor his punishment game.

also up-b is amazing for controlling battlefield like forces them to either sheild stab(shouldn't happen very offen to watch mains, yeah i'm calling people out) or grab You when You aren't keeping them out

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bad. Definitely bad.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

yeah I was comparing his options to if he were a weaker zedla/gannon

XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

He's really not like either of them.

He's more grab / ground move based than either of them.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

but he's got the combos

he's like a really crappy and slow falcon
with more tricks up his sleeve

G&W master tier 20xx

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

No this is the year of the srcub and the year of fox.

Watch has no place in the smash metagame and if You think he does do what they do in the marth threads

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

He does well in the local scene
As far as national, thats a gamble. I really don't know enough about the meta and all that talk to say whether I think G&W has a shot. What I do know is that we can't progress and unveil the character's true potential by failing to accommodate the weaknesses he does have. Its time to put the weaknesses aside and look at what we can work with here.

I wish I could help figure this watch guy out with you guys, but I lack playing partners to see how he can compete and how I can adjust my play style to outplay my opponent.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

it's just everyone thinks they can do the next big thing myself included. I played my heart out for 5 years as a low tier main and I'm still sure of my terrible pichu, because i,m sure pichu isn't that terrible.

sure he can do anything but I need to win 12 spacing wars in the neutral, for every one they win just to stay even.

i,ve beaten sheik mains before and can wreak local players with my pichu. but few people obsess over smash enough to be amazing at it and truth it takes an incredible amount of obsessing to be amazing. thinking about smash all day isn't enough, traveling from coast to coast isn't enough, reading every possible guide and mastering edge teching and extreme tech skill isn't enough and begging for info from the world.

i,ve done everything I can do and twisted every drop of info I can out of pichu just I don't have people on my level I can play everyday that are always out for not just blood for today but for tomorrow.

I hate people because I need them.


most important part is to believe and be brave

 

[Jim Morrison]

Damn ICG going IN

 

[BTmoney]

he's bad, but if you're better you can beat anyone. you just have to be a lot better lmao

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

The better people get the more extreme a 40-60 match-up is where it takes an insane amount of effort and detailed notes. Like i've watched hax$ trying to master a 50/50 mix-up like at 23% i think sheik can nair out of up-throw upair or she can jump out.

He tested jc grabs running grabs shield grabs and etc. he was there for maybe 40 minutes just trying to understand one tiny niche detail that might be wreaked by di. As watch you would have to know all those details in every match-up and still lose it if You make a single hole due butter and bread combos and if someone took watch serious they would cp samus get a grab and do the pummel no pummel mix-up to death vs watch. I've taken watch players up to 0-68% with it and if i had a charge shot it'd ended him right then and there.

When You say a lot better i don't think that's a fair answer. You'd have to pour everything into watch if You wanta be taken serious and not as a guy good at a joke chartcer

 

[oliman]

In the hands of an adept, a good high tier defense will beat G&W. He must commit to everything he does, countered by a faster or fortressier character, i.e. every high tier. There are things you can legitimately pull off, but a player who knows how to abuse weaknesses can easily outmaneuver Mr. G

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Thing about watch is while in a nutshell anyone with better movement should stomp him and his lag should not be possible to make up for.

But honestly i don't think he has any unwinable match-ups. And barely has the tools itms just movement

 

[FrenkM0J0]

you just have to be a lot better

#thenewdontgethit lol

 

[Fools Requiem]

I'm new here, have no tournament experience, little PvP experience, and therefore my info might not be completely accurate, but based on my play with G&W on Melee, I've noticed a few things:
-FAir hits hard and is a great aerial move for to KO foes or just create some breathing room.
-NAir has a delay before it comes out, but it does lots of knockback.
-Up Smash seems to have some weird delay.
-UAir is almost useless if you don't get the second hit.
-DTilt is a nice move to pull out when someone is rushing you on the ground... more useful than the down smash and is much quicker.
-G&W has very little horizontal recovery.
-G&W gets KO'd really easily. Once you get to 70-80%, one solid hit with good vertical knockback will KO him easily which makes him very vulnerable when airborne.
-Throws are weak, IMO.
-Roll dodging is horribly slow.

Overall, G&W has great KO and damage racking potential, but is easily killed and has difficulty getting back to the stage. I'm sure one could do well with him, but the potential of being killed below 100% is much too high that I don't think even the best players would have much of a chance at beating players using characters with similar damage racking/KO potential and better survival abilities.

 

[felipe_9595]

Bad, just bad. I mained him but i gave up, i couldnt get past pools in locals, i only use G&W vs weird matchups like IC orLuigi.

Btw, nobody mentioned that he has a 12.5% chance of a 1 hit ko if he lands a dtilt/fair at 0% in 90% of the cast lol

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Bad, just bad. I mained him but i gave up, i couldnt get past pools in locals, i only use G&W vs weird matchups like IC orLuigi.

Btw, nobody mentioned that he has a 12.5% chance of a 1 hit ko if he lands a dtilt/fair at 0% in 90% of the cast lol

hahaha thats true...
who do you main now?

 

[felipe_9595]

Falco , betrayed my G&W

But i main him in P:M c:

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, I guess its nice to know all of his attributes, but it sort of depends upon how you use it. Stuff mentioned about his defensive traits such as tech roll, spot dodge, and shield only matter in those situations. I think G&W simply plays like a much worse roy/marth. He has incredible disjoint and despite not combo'ing for guaranteed inescapeable damage/death he could potentially wall people out.

Imagine you get someone in the air, then you proceed to Utilt/Fair and in general use his insane disjoint to keep people away. The problem is how does is force or get openings, and his ability to keep people juggled infinitely like marth is still fairly bad.

I think he might be underrated as far as low/mid tiers might be concerned. But, at this point in time for melee I would assume it doesn't matter anymore since he clearly is not high/top tier for regional/national tournament winning at this point in time 10 years after the game came out.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Falco , betrayed my G&W

But i main him in P:M c:

I main falco too! i still think g&w is one of the more interesting characters in the series

 

[Tomacawk]

if you go into learning gnw understanding that he has game-breaking weaknesses, and accept that you must play around these facts, i think he's relatively viable. by relatively viable i mean you can crack top 8 in regionals. i'm not sure a top 8 national gnw is possible

understand that you can't reliably shffl his moves. realize that you can't rely on shielding, ever. train yourself to only lightshield, and even then, you're much better off challenging peoples' approaches with your massive hitboxes. platform cancels can help you a LOT with staying fast. you can full hop bair without fastfalling to auto cancel, waveland, doublejump, whatever. bair also combos into nair at high percents. i think tbh his bair is extremely underrated but you really cannot land during it or the lag on landing will prevent any sort of follow up and safety

ftilt is excellent and dope for edge guarding. utilt is good too, but slow to start. his off the edge game is SICK. abuse what is good about him and play in a style that rarely requires shielding/shffling. learn to space the fair so you don't get shield grabbed. and your di needs to be GOOD. as in, you are DIing out of combos but also not missing DI on kill moves. it's ****ing hard, because combo DI on a kill move will kill GnW at depressingly low percents.

i do love this character and he is my favorite low tier, along with zelda, to beat people with. but you won't see me switching from fox to gnw in tournament.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

So, in conclusion, is he just bad?

 

[Tomacawk]

i feel like calling him bad is wrong, but you definitely can't call him good. imo he is underrated but only marginally

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

The way I look at it is that you can perfect G&W's game. When using a character like fox, the amount of options in every given situation is overwhelming, especially against other spacies. It seems that playing characters like fox and falco are past the physical capabilities of humans to really perfect. So, in theory, of course G&W is horrible. But if you are playing the right game and keep the championship mentality, I don't see why a G&W player couldn't be the next Amsa.

Just watch Qerb vs Zero. Just watch it, and think that ^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FNM6X1yMwc
Even tho Qerb didn't pull it out, try arguing that he shouldn't have taken that set 3-0 convincingly, against a player a lot of people don't like to give credit too as a good player but nevertheless a player who took a game from Armada at MLG and performs well overall at most Melee regionals and nationals.

Also, if you notice, Qerb suffered a lot of damage from a few bad dair and fair approaches (they weren't that badly spaced, just not the optimal choices in such a tough MU) and did not smash DI any uairs (I don't see any G&Ws do this, but Im fairly sure you can). Without these mistakes, it would have been a 3-0 with no problem. Even with fox's speed and amazing neutral, G&W can work around the nairs (shown in this set) and grab/jab->death combo or at least gain a favorable position.

I know I didn't really develop this argument fully, but its not really something to explain, its more of a personal realization. It would take a lot longer that I'm willing to type to lay out all of the pieces, so instead, just watch the match lol.

 

[Mr. Jam]

He's is neither underrated nor overrated.

But yeah he's bad.

Power to all Game & Watch players though, I respect them all.

 

[Mr. S]

GnW's weaknesses are really really bad and, honestly, it's not too easy to play around them.

His shield sucks, so you generally need to light shield to not get poked, and getting hit while in light shield gives up a lot of stage. He can only l-cancel his fair and dair, which renders his other three aerials situational and completely terrible for things like approaching.

GnW has absolutely terrible matchups against common characters, which doesn't really help him either. So many characters can kind of just do whatever they want against GnW because he doesn't really have any good means of retaliation. He can space fairs or throw out a nair and hope it hits, but he doesn't really have that many decent options past that.

I don't see a GnW player becoming the next aMSa. Remember that QERB is an absolutely exceptional player. So good, really, that he might as well be the aMSa of GnW players. The problem with GnW compared to Yoshi is that Yoshi usually does have some good options for a fair deal of situations, and GnW just doesn't.

The only thing GnW really has going for him is those massive hitboxes he has on his moves. Those things stay out for DAYS.

Also ftilt and dtilt are super dope.

Honestly, it seems like GnW is almost not a terrible character.

Oh, but he's hellllla fun.

 

[Ridel]

GnW's weaknesses are really really bad and, honestly, it's not too easy to play around them.

His shield sucks, so you generally need to light shield to not get poked, and getting hit while in light shield gives up a lot of stage. He can only l-cancel his fair and dair, which renders his other three aerials situational and completely terrible for things like approaching.

GnW has absolutely terrible matchups against common characters, which doesn't really help him either. So many characters can kind of just do whatever they want against GnW because he doesn't really have any good means of retaliation. He can space fairs or throw out a nair and hope it hits, but he doesn't really have that many decent options past that.

I don't see a GnW player becoming the next aMSa. Remember that QERB is an absolutely exceptional player. So good, really, that he might as well be the aMSa of GnW players. The problem with GnW compared to Yoshi is that Yoshi usually does have some good options for a fair deal of situations, and GnW just doesn't.

The only thing GnW really has going for him is those massive hitboxes he has on his moves. Those things stay out for DAYS.

Also ftilt and dtilt are super dope.

Honestly, it seems like GnW is almost not a terrible character.

Oh, but he's hellllla fun.

F-Smash is really powerful as well and has a good amount of shield stun if blocked. I think people also really underestimate his gimping and edge-guarding game. His N-Air can trump very linear recoveries like Fire Fox, Falcon Dive, Fire Bird, and Dolphin Slash to name a few. Though against recoveries like Shiek's and Pikachu's he will almost never be able to set it up properly due to their slight invulnerability.

I guess you could call QERB the aMSa of G&W. It's also good to note he has actually won tournaments and even nearly took a set from Zero in said tournament.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Though against recoveries like Shiek's and Pikachu's he will almost never be able to set it up properly due to their slight invulnerability.

I don't agree with you about the pika recovery: I think, because the hitbox of G&W's nair is so big it makes it much easier to edgegaurd pika, given that you read the recovery. This is much easier with G&W than for instance fox of falco. For the rest, I agree with you completely!

 

[Ridel]

I don't agree with you about the pika recovery: I think, because the hitbox of G&W's nair is so big it makes it much easier to edgegaurd pika, given that you read the recovery. This is much easier with G&W than for instance fox of falco. For the rest, I agree with you completely!

Well when it comes to Pika, it's mainly because of it's speed and free movement. Remember N-Air is huge, but it takes a good amount of start-up before it is inistiated.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Well when it comes to Pika, it's mainly because of it's speed and free movement. Remember N-Air is huge, but it takes a good amount of start-up before it is inistiated.

Yeah that's also true but if you're a bit focussed it's not really a barrier, as long as you time it well i think.

 

[Crezyte]

Actually GnW's N-air edguards pika really well since quick attack has hurtboxes that are slightly in front of the animation or some weird pika stuff that I don't get. Plus you can just grab ledge against pika and shiek and get super easy punishes on their landing frames. (ok pika's isn't super easy, but its very doable if you can waveland properly)

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Actually GnW's N-air edguards pika really well since quick attack has hurtboxes that are slightly in front of the animation or some weird pika stuff that I don't get. Plus you can just grab ledge against pika and shiek and get super easy punished on their landing frames. (ok pika's isn't super easy, but its very doable if you can waveland properly)

I agree

 

[Drecker]

G&W, underrated or bad?

Both, honestly.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Yeah I guess that's the overall conclusion: He is bad, he has bad moves and all that junk. But even with that badness, He's still playable and it's still able to win with him.

 

[Ridel]

Actually GnW's N-air edguards pika really well since quick attack has hurtboxes that are slightly in front of the animation or some weird pika stuff that I don't get. Plus you can just grab ledge against pika and shiek and get super easy punished on their landing frames. (ok pika's isn't super easy, but its very doable if you can waveland properly)

Yeah your right I don't really know much about the Pikachu match-up but I would assume it's hard just for how fast it is but you make an ecellent point.